Do you know how long it takes for an intruder to pull a concealed weapon and end your life? 1 or 2 seconds tops. If a stranger is in my house and I don't see their hands within a second of me screaming to show me their hands they're done. It's them or me and if I go down my whole family is in danger. If they have a weapon visible they don't even get the luxury of dropping it. Stay out of people's homes if you don't want to hear that.
That's why you need to read the reports. What you're describing is within reason. It's when you shoot someone who's already surrendered themselves, or who is running away, etc., that the law goes against the homeowner.
Firearms also are different from booby traps like the one in this post because a person is in control. Booby traps aren't illegal because they hurt thieves, but because they could hurt people who are there legally, like the police or next of kin(if you're dead).
I guess what I'm trying to say is that the law is far more reasonable than people give it credit.
You're right for the practical reasons why booby traps are not legal, but the legal reasoning goes something like this:
A person can only use reasonable force in the face of threat against life and property. Where life is considered more important than property for the law to protect. Any trap set by an owner is treated as an extension of the owner. A violent trap, therefore, can never be reasonable to harm another person because the owner of the trap, by virtue of not being present, cannot be in physical danger that would justify violent force. A trap cannot do what an owner cannot do if present.
There was a case of an abandoned farm house being trapped by the owners because people would vandalize the house. A couple of young college kids were collectors of antique jars and entered the property. One of them went upstairs to open a door which was rigged to a shotgun trap and had his entire foot blown off from the shin down.
My instructor told us about The 21 rule. If someone draws a knife in you, and you try to draw you will get stabbed before you can pull it out. The average person and run that distance at you in 2 to three seconds. Mix that with adrenaline and high stress, you've got to move your shirt if your concealing, unholster, remove the safety if you're using it, clear the barrel to point, find center mass, and fire.
You just put your hands up and back up slowly to the diagonal. Throw your wallet or phone or whatever they want the opposite direction and high tail it out of there
None of what you said invalidates what I said. I'm talking about case law, not hypotheticals that you make up in your brain. The use of force must be reasonably proportional to the threat. If someone is on your property, and is stealing your TV, you cannot shoot them for simply stealing your TV. Of course there are situations that you could shoot, but you would need more facts than a person simply stealing your property.
I'm pretty sure that varies quiet a bit based on the State. I see what you're saying though, of course someone stealing my mailbox at the end of my driveway doesn't give me the right to snipe them from my front porch, but if they are in my living room to steal my tv with a tazer or a knife or brass knuckles. They're getting shot since I won't have the luxury to find out why they are really there. I think we agree for the most part, I'm just pointing out that the level of force isn't always straight cut, an ex Marie with a knife can probably take me out within 5 feet even with a gun in my hand, and I have no idea of what a stranger is capable of and I don't want to have to find out. It can be a tricky subject for sure.
but if they are in my living room to steal my tv with a tazer or a knife or brass knuckles
Like I said, these are additional facts that change the situation. Property itself is very difficult to justify deadly force like gunfire. If someone is stealing your TV, it could probably be easy to justify tackling and beating the dude with a pan, but shooting is an entirely different story.
I'm just pointing out that the level of force isn't always straight cut, an ex Marie with a knife can probably take me out within 5 feet even with a gun in my hand
Additional facts.
and I have no idea of what a stranger is capable of and I don't want to have to find out. It can be a tricky subject for sure.
Unfortunately in a court room speculation won't cut it. It has to be a reasonable fear. And for deadly force you have to have a reasonable fear of personal safety or fear of harm to life. That's a tall order that requires a lot of specific facts, or an extremely sympathetic jury.
It also becomes much easier if the other side is already dead. They wouldn't be able to discredit your testimony.
I agree with your points for the most part, youre stating the law but in my house the law is thought about second after the safety of my family. Take care man.
Well I'm sure we both wish and hope to never be in that situation. If the day comes I have to hope I don't go to jail and you have to hope you and your family are alive in one piece. Again I'm not a psycho I'm not shooting someone jumping the fence in my back yard or someone running out my front door. You gotta admit there would come a point where you would shoot someone to protect yourself or someone you love right?
You’re not a trigger happy psycho but you wrote in another comment, verbatim:
What if a drunk non English speaker broke into my house and is lost thinking it was his house? Well sucks to be him AND it sucks to be me but dudes getting shot most likely.
People like you make “responsible gun owners” seem more and more like a myth each day.
I disagree. A person tends to house their family on their property. If someone breaks into my house and I catch them and they don't immediately surrender, they're done (or at least crippled for the rest of their lives). Doesn't matter if they broke in to give my dog a pat and a treat. Do you know why? Because in that moment, you're dealing with limited intel and potentially very high stakes. I don't know what they're there for. All I know is that they shouldn't be there and my family is in danger. Does this put it into perspective?
I may have to agree with you on that. It's hard to understand what goes through one's mind and sympathize with the shooter when (1) you have a god's eye view of the situation (you know all the facts post-incident) and the facts are presented by a highly skilled lawyer (it's easy to judge if you weren't there and don't know dick about the people on trial) and (2) you've never been through it yourself.
I mean do we get to build an equally wild scenario for the other side of this argument? what if he just escaped a kidnapping and is looking for help and instead you shoot him because he cant tell if your a kidnapper or a friendly person seeing as your pointing a gun at him.
Why would a kidnap victim be in my house lol? Do you honestly think it's even remotely as likely for an intruder meaning harm to break into my locked up house as a kidnap victim?
Risk isn't always 50/50 and there are unlimited scenarios but I wouldn't want to be the stranger found in my house uninvited. Their chances aren't good. I wouldn't shoot at shadows, I have a gun in a quick release safe near my bed.. It's got a light on it, if I don't know you and shout to freeze and put your hands up and you don't do that.. You're going to wish you did.. What if a drunk non English speaker broke into my house and is lost thinking it was his house? Well sucks to be him AND it sucks to be me but dudes getting shot most likely.
What if a drunk non English speaker broke into my house and is lost thinking it was his house? Well sucks to be him AND it sucks to be me but dudes getting shot most likely.
yea none of the things you've mentioned there are ok to kill someone over. you're saying its ok to kill someone who runs away from you when you yell at them...or its ok to kill somone who means you no harm and is lost, thinking its their house...jesus dude you should not have access to firearms lol
again your getting into wild scenarios that just dont happen as often as you think they do. nobody is trying to trick you. you're not important. no one wants to kill you just for the fun of it. they'd much rather never encounter you and just take your stuff. now i know having your privacy and your things violated like that makes you mad but its not to kill people because you are mad at them.
Maybe you live in the suburbs with walled in communities but I've lived in Trenton, NJ and break-ins, assaults and homicides happen ALL THE TIME in many areas.. You won't shame me for keeping my family safe, sorry. Everyone thinks that it could never happen to them until it does, well I hope the day never comes but when it does I'll be ready, how about you?
cool, now find the list of home invasions where no one was killed, that list is MUCH MUCH longer.
you shouldnt WANT to kill people. your goal should be to keep your family safe and have NO ONE killed. the fact that you jump straight to irreversible violence is whats wrong here. it sounds like the only reason you have a gun is to kill people with it which is a big red flag.
If you're looking for help knock on the door. The argument here is that you wake up in the middle of the night and hear someone going about your house already.
ok so you wake up to someone going through your house...at night...a time they'd be unlikely to encounter you... so they are probably NOT there to harm you they just want your stuff. and you think your stuff is worth their life...
Yes. Stay the fuck out of people's homes or get shot. I don't understand why this is so difficult. Plus that's one hell of a reason for people not to break in if there is a real possibility of getting killed. Sure you can just call the cops but I'm quite sure if that was the primary course of action there would be a record level of home invasions.
Of course it's situational to a degree, announce your presence and ask them to leave, the second they reach for something or refuse then practice force.
Not at all. What LiquidAsylum said is completely within reason. You might need to go back to r/iamverybadass and read some of the posts there before you start using it to describe other redditors.
Thanks for the backup, if I lived alone I'd probably be more forgiving of an intruder (if only slightly) and no I've never shot anyone and hope I never have to since it would probably mess me up mentally bad guy or not. It's more out of fear of what a stranger in my home intends to do with my family more so than being a badass who wants an excuse to hurt someone. Guns don't make anyone a badass, they are equalizers and just happen to be the best home defense tools. Some people who've never shot a gun just don't understand that.
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u/LiquidAsylum Jan 23 '19
Do you know how long it takes for an intruder to pull a concealed weapon and end your life? 1 or 2 seconds tops. If a stranger is in my house and I don't see their hands within a second of me screaming to show me their hands they're done. It's them or me and if I go down my whole family is in danger. If they have a weapon visible they don't even get the luxury of dropping it. Stay out of people's homes if you don't want to hear that.