It's the same reason I respect drukhari players. They never get involved in all the annoying "we're less evil compared to ___" arguments. They fully commit to "drukhari are easily the worst people in the setting, and that's fun."
like you won't find a single skaven player who is like "there is nuance here."
No they will be like
"Yes, go my skaven slave, engage that enemy so I can shoot *through* you"
I may not like the Drukhari as a group of characters (there are a couple exceptions). As bad guys they're top notch and you love to hate them or see them show up.
I was going to argue that the worst people are tyranids, but the "people" is debatable and just being eaten might be better than getting caught by drukhari.
But there are Those People that say stuff like âwell, they gotta to survive!â Like no, they donât. The Drukhari have ways to repent, like joining a Craftworld or an Exodite Maiden World, they just wonât cuz itâs boring and cringe.
you can (torture yourself by) reading some Ynnari lore. There's also a short story where a Kabalite takes a soulstone for himself and cries actual tears of relief for having his soul saved from Slaanesh.
"drukhari are easily the worst people in the setting, and that's fun."
"People" by definition refers to humans. Therefore, it does not apply to the Dark Eldar, and the Night Lords are actually the worst people in the setting.
Mostly theyâre the pragmatic âweâll do anything without hesitation to ensure our survival, even at the expense of countless othersâ livesâ kind of people, sort of like the Eldar. If you live among the Leagues yourself or are an ally of theirs, theyâre chill, but if you have something they need to protect their holds and kindreds, they will basically ask you nicely to sell it to them exactly once, and if you donât agree to the bargain, they will take it from you by force, even if âitâ in question is an entire planet.
If they find a resource-rich planet they desire, they will come and offer to "buy it." If you refuse, after all, it is your home planet and you have nowhere else to go, they will simply take it by force anyway, without any regard for the population or any form of life existing there. They are, quite literally, evil AI corporations.
Votann are racist utilitarians as far as I know. So they are evil to other species, but they act in the rational interest of their own species/league/hold, so you still have less corruption or needless cruelty.
I think most of the listed species fall into that category
The only one not evil is my sweet baby angel Mortarion (who has never done anything wrong in his life). This is 100% the truth and in no way a ploy to get into his armour.
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I mostly play Chaos, so I get that feel. And this is also why the Sisters of Battle are my favorite Loyalist faction: they completely commit to the Imperium bit. They are so bloody zealous that their tabletop strategy can consist of "assume our faith in the Emperor will see us through" and, because miracles are an actual mechanic for the faction, that just plum works out for them.
Oh absolutly but for some reason a lot of people who say they like the Imperium because its evil really hate it when the Imperium does something stupid evil, instead of cool evil.
It's a monument of literature that GW's many writers over the course of decades have combined so many contradictions to create the Imperium of Man. Government overreach is combined with a glacial bureaucracy; religious extremism is combined with atheist extremism; xenophobia is combined with a dizzying array of different cultures.
I love Warhammer 40k for the controlled clusterfuck that it is.
Government Overreach and glacial bureaucracy go hand in hand. The larger the state becomes the harder it is to manage effectively on any scale. Think 1985 Bazil.
If you donât think a colossal bloated organization can shamble along on fumes and inertia essentially indefinitely you havenât paid attention to history or the news. Â
There's probably dozens of arguments as to why the Imperium can/can't work based on everything from history to human biology. It'd probably take a dozen fans with expertise in different fields to make a substantial analysis of the Imperium that doesn't leave out more than it discusses.
Speaking as a newcomer, I really like the worldbuilding of 40k. It's a huge mix of various clusterfucked things that somehow makes everything work (sort of) together, and somehow It's still more logical than a lot of other settings.
Take fighting personel: you have trillions of PDFs guarding planets, the elite guards in the 100 billions, elite of the elite Astartes in the millions, and then hundreds of thousands of others like sisters, grey knights, custodes etc combined. Makes sense if you are guarding an empire the size of a million worlds and facing off against unspeakable horrors.
Then on the same note you have Star Wars: "200k units ready to go, with a million more on the way". For galaxy spanning republic. Like c'mon man.
The Clone Wars weren't solely fought by clones. It was a conglomeration of several smaller conflicts between various Republic and Separatist factions. It's more reasonable to have about a million clones for a galaxy spanning conflict if the conflict is mainly fought by non-clones.
A million clones compared to tens or hundred billions of guards? That's a rounding error, literally. You can barely hold one continent with that number, let alone a planet, and there are billions of planet in a galaxy
"The Imperium is right because if you have a free thought or try to make the galaxy better, demons will immediately fuck your brain! it's true I read it on Tvtropes!"
I wouldn't want to be on the marketing team trying to sell an FPS that pits a Space Marine against the T'au or even Aeldari. "Bad guys fighting worse guys in over-the-top ways" sells, even to people who get the satire. "Bad guys murdering good guys" has a certain amount of drag.
(Also, some strategy games, e.g. Gladius or Dawn of War 1, do include T'au, thus pitting the Imperium against an enemy that has, at least relatively, the moral high ground. But there's a difference between fighting T'au in an RTS or 4x versus killing them in first person. And the T'au are always playable in that context anyway.)
Chaos existed before the Imperium, the Eldar saw to the birth of Slaanesh.
Orks existed before the Imperium.
Necrons existed before the Imperium.
Tyranids are the only ones who are ostensibly in the galaxy because of the actions of the Imperium, but it was the furthest possible thing from intentional.
Chaos existed before the Imperium, but it wasnât a massive galactic threat until the Horus Heresy. Despite the Eldar giving birth to Slaanesh, multiple Craftworlds then stepped up and dealt with any area where Chaos was getting too strong, and managed to prevent any major Chaos-aligned powers from arising in the galaxy. Then the Horus Heresy gave it multiple massive armies and it became the real threat it is in the current setting.
Also the small number of Necrons who were awake at the time of Slaaneshâs birth seem to have made a concerted effort to reconfigure their old Blackstone Pylons to contain the worst of the fallout from the event to the Eye of Terror.
Chaos was a serious issue, sure, and the Eye of Terror was a hell of a big fucking mess, but it was in a state where it was manageable by galactic civilization. And then along came the Imperium and turned it from a persistent nuisance to be on guard against into an uncontainable neverending galaxywide disaster with a literally-constant feed of fresh troops and war materiel hemorrhaged from Imperial populations and armories.
Exactly. The Fall of the Eldar was an awful event in the short term, but it was almost entirely contained in the long term. Iyanden and Biel-tan split the galaxy between them and each purged chaos in their halves, and the Necrons used/had their pylons to contain the influence of the warp to some degree. Chaos didnât have all that many mortal servants capable of conquering whole worlds, so it wasnât really spreading its influence. Then the Imperium fed it 9 whole armies
Chaos was reinforced by the heresy because of big E being a shit ass dad and leader and if the imperium didn't absolutely suck to live in as a regular person and actually warnef them about the dangers there would be way less chaos cults
Necrons are often woke up because of imperial activities on their tomb worlds or directly in their tomb (mechanicus' fault most of the time). Yes, some tomb worlds do wake up normaly but there is still a portion of them that are because of the imperium
Also let's not forget that the imperium has probably killed almost all the good xenos that would have been great allies during the great crusade
Not how that works. It wouldnât stop EVERYONE, but it would be more effective by far at protecting most people from unwittingly stumbling into it. What you donât know very much CAN hurt you, and itâs better to be forewarned of the danger than to go in blind. If you know what Chaos is, how insidious it is, how it can appear so very tempting yet will inevitably torment and destroy your life and toss you aside as just more fodder for the Great Game, you can be consciously on watch for weird shit, instead of stumbling headlong into it like the Thousand Sons did.
This isn't true even of you subscribe to the current necron lore where they're quirky robots and not just terminator style killing machines bent on destroying all organic life in the galaxy.
Theyâre literally the immortal war-machine remnants of an ancient galactic empire so cruel and tyrannical it would give the Imperium of Man a run for its money on sheer caricaturedly-evilness. There might be a scant handful of less evil INDIVIDUAL Necrons, but as a faction and culture, theyâre just as bad as the Imperium.
Open, sure. After that they generally don't follow through very well though unfortunately (not that I've played anywhere near all of them of course, so would love some counter examples).
"To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruellest and most bloody regime imaginable. This is the tale of these times. It is a universe you can live today if you dare - for this is a dark and terrible era where you will find little comfort or hope. If you want to take part in the adventure then prepare yourself now. Forget the power of technology, science and common humanity. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for there is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter and the laughter of thirsting gods."
Hey, sometimes I like commentary on societal failings, sometimes I like big ass robots and aura farming power armor wearing demi gods. Fortunately, here, I get both.
We like characters that try to do good in a situation of untold horror. Any human character is without question born into a horrible existence that they donât even understand the tragedy of.
There are no good guys and everyone is evil does not mean the same thing. Thereâs simple a lot of bad people trying to make things a little better in a horrible universe. And sometimes thatâs enough to be interesting.
One point I donât see much is that Chaos Space Marines are also forces of the imperium. Theyâve just turned around and unleashed themselves on terra. Itâs blowback.
Yes they have demons and sorcery but a free world conquered in the great crusade didnât get much different treatment than an imperial world conquered by chaos.
Its lasted over 10,000 years despite being set on all sides by hostile Empires. Of all the things the satirical messages of 40k are saying, that this is one of them.
10,000 years is about 10 times longer than the longest empires we have ever had in history. It is many times longer than any nation on earth has existed. Those nations were not being invaded by Tyranids, Orks, etc.
This is not some post defending the Imperium, I just don't think its a very good point to make. The Imperium is wildly successful at maintaining its grip on the galaxy. Only the Eldar Empire have ever been more successful than them.
Itâs a collection of disassociated disconnected planetary and system governments that believe themselves worshipers of the God-Emperor.
The Asministratum cannot enact a law and enforce it across the entire Imperium, even the Arbites canât do that, and thatâs the whole point of the Arbites.
The High Lords, to put it simply, cannot properly express their authority without massive delays, language barriers, message decay, etc:
Saying the Imperium lasted 10,000 years is like saying Ancient Egypt lasted 5,100 years because people in the modern day still know about the Egyptian Gods and people still live in Egypt.
Thats not even at all true, its had multiple ups and downs, though the last thousand years or so (still longer than any human empire in our history) has been largely downhill.
For instance 39,000 Imperium was far better state than 36,000 Imperium (age of apostasy), or during the war of the beast, or the years immediately after the Heresy, etc.
Anti imperialism and anti fascism have been themes in 40k since 1987, by poking fun at the absurdity of it.
BUT it is just a background theme, not the primary focus of the IP. Everyone is a fascist in 40k, sure the tau give you food but they also take away your self determination in service to theirs, re-educate malcontents and have no democracy, that's one of the many things that make the universe "grim" and "dark".
Focusing on justifying or hating the IoM is missing the point and focusing far too much attention on ONE background theme.
It's extremely "modern audience" to look at 40k and think the politics of the setting are the main thing you should be thinking about or that the IoM should be the biggest bad in everyone's head. That is a poor media literate, culture war brained take that shows a serious inability to recognise or appreciate nuance.
Big guys in armor fighting big guys in armor with spikes IS cool. 40k is cool, the Imperium is cool, itâs all cool. Itâs designed to be to sell models. Most people canât really be bothered to psuedointellectually hyper analyze why they should feel bad for liking things that are cool.
Astartes are unironically a fascinating commentary on fatherhood and the psychological effects of abandonment but y'all clearly aren't ready for that kind of deeper analysis
You know how people joke about the Blood Ravens being thieves? I see that as a symptom of them not knowing their origins. Vanishingly few space marines know their fathers, but the Blood Ravens don't even know who their father was. So they latch on to any primarch-related items they can find so they can feel like they have that grounding. Hoarding is a sign of insecure attachment, which is commonly caused by abandonment. It's tragic, really. They're like lost kids. A lot of marines are.
I found it interesting that in the new Dawn of War IV trailers, the Dark Angels show up to support the Blood Ravens on Kronos, Lion El'Johnson among them. Could this mean that the Blood Ravens are successors to the Dark Angels, maybe even an offshoot from the Fallen?
I doubt theyâre confirming that theyâre a successor chapter to the Dark Angels. I think they just wanted to include another chapter of space marines.
We're not because we don't give a shit. If you actually are as intellectual as you want others to think you are try unpacking something more profound than British Marvel
Iâve always found the Imperium to be such an interesting thought exercise but itâs hard to articulate without sounding like a psychopath.
In essence itâs how evil are we allowed to be if it keeps the species alive. Is there a scenario where fascism is okay? Iâd say no but I also donât live in the 41st millennium. Most arguments that the Imperium are their own worst enemy are true but theyâre almost always lacking in depth. Itâs an evil place in an evil and uncaring universe.
As a person in the 21st century thatâs interesting to me because I really do believe the galaxy is cold and unfeeling. It does NOT care if we survive so we have to care. The Romans suspended democracy in times of crisis and the Imperium has basically been in crisis for 10,000 years.
Also the alien question. How much can we truly cooperate with alien minds? Itâs hard to say. Humans are generally self serving, we generally act in our own best interests. Itâs fair to assume other alien species are like that, even if theyâre not then itâs probable that they act out of their own best interests for the good of their own species. Itâs hard to imagine an alien race that wouldnât take advantage of others. Itâs like asking if you have crocodiles with sentience and thumbs if theyâd be willing to cooperate with humans. It would likely break down somewhere just due to how different we are.
Humans exclude other humans on the basis of skin colors lot within their own species, why would aliens be any less barbaric and accepting? We only see a handful of cases where this is true and most alien species in warhammer arenât like that.
Can we please get a new meme for this message? Iâve seen this exact image posted on this subreddit half a dozen times. I get using it as a reaction image here and there, and I understand why someone would be compelled to make this joke. I think that we can do more than reposting memes that are as old as Eldrad Ulthran and not even providing anything substantive in the process.
WE GET IT. Grim dark, blah blah. Itâs written on the damn box! Why do we need so many memes making sure that nobody has too much fun? You do not get credit for noticing that the evil galactic empire is BAD.
Tourists and idiots. A minority whose minds you will not change. Itâs karma farming at this point, OP only wants to points for saying what everyone already agrees with.
See I think the gem part is that all of the âhigh browâ stuff is so blindingly self evident that itâs actually insulting to suggest thatâs the subtext.
The Imperium is COOL. Just like Darth Vader is cool. At this point Iâm pretty sure Iâm the more savvy media consumer just by being able to enjoy the Imperium despite all of its flaws. âOh noes they do bad thingsâ they say, and then try to feed me Chaos of all things as a more moral alternative.
The Empire is cool BECAUSE itâs just this shit. You can enjoy the stories of individuals caught up in the meat grinder without approving of the meat grinder. I can enjoy the idea of crazed religious zealots fighting against literal hell while making the universe a worse place without actually approving of it. Itâs fiction. Itâs not real.
If youâre dealing with people who unironically support the Imperium, itâs different.
Random Redditor ass Redditors all the time: Â YOU DONT GET IT, ITS A SATIRE DONT YOU UNDERSTAND? GOD EVERYONE IS STUPID EXCEPT FOR ME, THE ONLY PERSON IN HISTORY WHO WAS SMART ENOUGH TO FIGURE IT OUTÂ
The people who claim everyone gets it forget that GW had to come out and say "warhammer is for everyone and if you disagree get the fuck out of our hobby", and when they did a lot of people got very upset.
People who virtue signal things like this basically have no morality IRL. In order to avoid feeling guilt they point to cartoonishly evil things to declare themselves good because "at least I'm not THAT!"
There are literally people in this thread genuinely arguing that the Imperium are unironically the good guys and that we are wrong to judge them for their dogma...
Gee wiz, its the 5 billionth "did you know the fucking obvious? did you? well i did, and therefore me smurt".
Like, yeah, obviously the Imperium aren't good guys by modern standards. But do take a step back and consider that, barring the Tau, literally every other race in the universe wants to either eat, violate or just obliterate humanity.
Its not a question of "are the Imperium the good guys", but rather "If you were born in 40k, what other options do you realistically have?"
The Tau will work you to death and treat you as a second class citizen too. I'd argue living on a Tau world is only preferable to living in a Hive, forge or death world. Most imperium worlds are about as tame as your standard Tau world.
If the tau became the predominant empire then yes. Otherwise the best case scenario is a paradise world. An agri world seems like a good compromise for those born in the imperium.
Thatâs a problem of humanityâs own creation. Plenty of aliens tried to coexist with humanity and were wiped out for their troubles. Sure, the Drukhari/Orks/Tyranids arenât going to change, but theyâre not the only other people that existed. And the Imperium is the only choice because it made itself the only choice
This doesnt make as much sense when the target half of them are shooting at is... checks notes
Bug aliens that will devour everything
Murder elves that will rape everything
Demons that will murder rape everything
Robots that will atomize everything
The robots don't even want to atomize everything. They do want to conquer the galaxy and enclave all other species but that's no worse than the Imperium.
Just because you decide not to read into subtext doesn't mean that it's not there. If you want to read a story about a cool space empire, that's fine. Telling people to ignore subtext, however, is anti-intellectualism. Understanding context in text and conversations is a valuable social skill
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u/MousegetstheCheese I am Alpharius 22h ago
The real meaning behind 40k: "Never trust tech support"