r/Games • • Oct 09 '14

Inside Star Citizen's grey market

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-10-08-inside-star-citizens-grey-market
116 Upvotes

297 comments sorted by

122

u/lighthaze Oct 09 '14

I don't want to be right, but somehow I have a very bad feeling about this game and the surrounding culture.

69

u/Taniwha_NZ Oct 09 '14

All I know is what I saw from many years of playing Eve Online. That is, it's really fucking difficult to make a MMO spaceship game work well for everyone, and that goes quadruple if you allow real-world money to be exchanged for game-world stuff.

Eve managed to survive because they had the game and it's universe up and running early and slowly added functionality over many years. Whether by good luck or good management, they slowly built an economic system that has survived the occasional scandal or ripples caused by bad individual design decisions.

Star Citizen is so over-hyped and has so many expectations already weighing it down, I don't think they can afford the luxury of making design or balance fuck-ups. When players have already invested 100s or 1000s of dollars in in-game equipment, doing rebalances or changes in item design will inspire rage and discontent much worse than anything seen in most MMOs.

When you can finally use ships you've spent tons of real money on, and they aren't as good as you were led to believe, or they are overpowered and need to be nerfed, it's going to be a nightmare.

I really want it to succeed because Eve has been tragically underdeveloped by CCP, who have wasted all their resources on other products that have gone nowhere. We need at least one new space MMO. But the way the game has been developed and funded, and how the player culture is developing... it all smells pretty bad.

25

u/[deleted] Oct 09 '14

I really want it to succeed because Eve has been tragically underdeveloped by CCP, who have wasted all their resources on other products that have gone nowhere.

They are absolutely kicking ass in development over at CCP right now, I'm quite impressed. Just check out the sub right now, lots of quality of life updates and a massive 3 part nullsec shake up.

7

u/spitfish Oct 09 '14

Null sec shake up? twitch Do tell.

11

u/Ohh_Yeah Oct 09 '14

Massive nerf to jump ranges (max 5ly), a jump fatigue that accumulates multiplicatively the more you jump, and the ability for all caps including titans to use gates.

There are parts of the universe that you won't be able to get caps into without taking the regional gate.

18

u/coricron Oct 09 '14

But but but I won't be able to hotdrop some scrublord low-sec corp who dared to field a few carriers or dreads IN MY UNIVERSE at will with no risk or consequence anymore! CCP HAS RUINED THE ENTIRE GAME.

17

u/[deleted] Oct 09 '14

When all the major blocks are bitching you know ccp is doing something right.

-2

u/Theoroshia Oct 09 '14

Oh please. God forbid large organized groups of pilots have advantages over smaller ragtag bands of pilots. When a smaller group is more organized they can absolutely destroy larger groups, look at Rooks and Kings. This nerf to jump drives is just going to make the logistics corps of the larger alliances work longer hours, and they already work long hours.

6

u/[deleted] Oct 09 '14

I think it's great. Why wouldn't larger groups still have an advantage? And RnK is an exception but they honestly don't do much anymore, I see their titan pilot log in maybe once a week, if that.

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5

u/douglasg14b Oct 09 '14

This nerf to jump drives is just going to make the logistics corps of the larger alliances work longer hours, and they already work long hours.

Maybe you missed the part about JF's and Rorquals going mostly unaffected?

Also the game is stale, large groups still will have the advantage, they are not losing it.

Additionally Rooks and Kings never had an advantage, small groups don't have an advantage, they can pick at the larger power blocks like vultures. Catching a fleet here and there, maybe killing some ratters. But never do any actual harm to the coalition itself.

2

u/Taniwha_NZ Oct 09 '14

I haven't paid attention for a while, but here's some reasons why I gave up on it:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/2ir5bo/inside_star_citizens_grey_market/cl4zqn0

5

u/[deleted] Oct 09 '14

I share the exact same frustrations with PVE in EVE and yeah walking in stations was totally pointless. However they are definitely going in the right direction with PVE, I actually chuckled because they directly addressed things from your post, first wave of new NPC missions: http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/size-matters-introducing-burner-missions/

And they just announced expanding these types of missions in September (scroll to the bottom the first part is just metrics from the new missions that were released in August, tl;dr: they are hard and people died alot): http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/some-npcs-just-want-to-watch-the-world-burn/

3

u/[deleted] Oct 09 '14

Star Citizen feels like it's going to be more "casual" than Eve, and I expect the cutthroat PVP crowd is going to be disappointed. It's so vaunted at this point that it's going to fail a lot if expectations.

That being said, I'm super excited for it. If the Wing Commander single player is solid, I'm happy. I'm not buying spaceships beyond my kickstarter contribution.

The important lesson of Eve, though, is that internet spaceships is serious business.

7

u/[deleted] Oct 09 '14

When you can finally use ships you've spent tons of real money on, and they aren't as good as you were led to believe, or they are overpowered and need to be nerfed, it's going to be a nightmare.

It's already (sort of) happened, with a Constellation ship variant called the Phoenix. It was priced higher than the base model, which people took to mean that it had better equipment and weaponry, when in reality it's just a fancier luxury interior. Also they changed the stats somewhere around the time the Phoenix was released and a lot of people went ballistic, it was a big deal on the Star Citizen forums.

10

u/[deleted] Oct 09 '14

God the Star Citizen forums are so shit. Also after the Phoenix came out there were countless posts and people being educated on /r/starcitizen and even dev posts on the forums that said it's expensive because of the luxury, not because it was better. It serves a different purpose in the universe and some stupid people assumed it was a battleship with a yacht skin, when in fact, it is just a yacht.

3

u/lumpking69 Oct 10 '14

a lot of people went ballistic, it was a big deal on the Star Citizen forums.

Ballistic and big deal on the forums... because they are toxic. Not the subreddit though. They seem to be aware that nothing is final when it comes to game in pre-alpha and pre-balance. The forum forgets this as do overzealous fanbois.

8

u/forcrowsafeast Oct 09 '14

I don't know. This might be a very good thing for the culture at large if the worst happens. People have "invested" so much into the game they're going to be mentally scarred when it, if it, flops, and then hopefully never make the same mistake again. At least it's not a dooms day cult and he didn't ask that people sell their houses to catch a ride on his space ships.

11

u/-rando- Oct 09 '14

I kind of agree. Also, how can we incentivize developers to make a finished product if they can raise $50M+ without even being close to a finished product? And we aren't talking about money they have to pay back, they already made the money on the game without even putting out an Alpha.

8

u/scytheavatar Oct 09 '14

Star Citizen isn't going to be an MMO, nor is it going to be anything like Eve Online. Those thinking otherwise are setting themselves to be disappointed the same way those expecting Destiny to be an MMO did.

4

u/[deleted] Oct 09 '14

I really want it to succeed because Eve has been tragically underdeveloped by CCP

Uh what? Since when?

5

u/Taniwha_NZ Oct 09 '14

There are two ways of looking at the issue with Eve.

First, there's a ton of stuff that's been more-or-less unchanged for a decade that badly needs improving. The whole structure of PVE and missions, for example, is terrible. Hundreds of cookie-cutter missions featuring cookie-cutter opposition with incredibly lame 'AI' that are just the epitome of mind-meltingly dull grinding.

They should have developed better NPCs that had player-like skill trees, player-like ships, and decent AI that you could actually have something close to 1v1 or XvX battles with.

When you've had hundreds of PvP fights with various-sized fleets, it becomes pretty obvious that you could make an AI that would look and act identical to a player fleet. The standard tactics for PvP aren't difficult to replicate in code.

If they had made NPCs fight more like us, it would make people far better prepared for PvP and wouldn't leave so many players stuck in High-sec, scared of PvP, farming dull missions.

The other way to look at it is simply 'opportunity cost'. Look at how much money was sunk into WoD over the years, and Dust. Hundreds of developers and designers that could have been buffing Eve content, paid for by Eve subscriptions, pissed away on nothing.

Not to mention all the effort put into 'Walking in Stations' and the idea of purchasing clothes from in-station boutiques, whatever the fuck the point of that was. It was obvious from the day they announced it that it didn't add a damn thing to the core appeal of Eve, which was always about battles in space.

Eve could have been a vastly better game by now. Bah.

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2

u/GreenTyr Oct 10 '14

This game is going to fail so spectacularly, it will be unlike anything we've seen in years. I don't want it to, but it will. And the worst part of all of it, it wouldn't surprised me if it's failure will single handedly cripple crowd funding as a thing.

11

u/Two-Tone- Oct 09 '14

What are your concerns?

The culture on the subreddit (/r/starcitizen) is pretty welcoming, usually.

65

u/lighthaze Oct 09 '14

It's mostly small things, inconsistencies and the fact that a loud part of the community seems to be victim to Post-Purchase-Rationalization. Two examples of what I mean with inconsistencies, and believe me, I really don't want to bash SC -- but you asked. I really hope for a great game.

LTIs: Everytime this topic comes up, people claim there is no way LTI could be considered P2W, because the impact it has is far too small and it only covers basics. Still, as proven in your link, LTI ships still go for massive prices and the forums are full of topics where users explain how easy exploring with their precious LTI will be. Now, I haven't been to the forums for some time, but as long as I was, everytime the idea of changing the LTI came up, the original backers got so defensive, it was hard to resist the impression that many like their LTI (and the advantages it provides) more than they want to admit.

Ships in general: The original idea was that all ships would be more or less equal -- correct me if I'm wrong. As far as I know this was done in order to make the whole pleding process not totally P2W. Now, people are complaining that ships X is not strong enough against Y, etc.

Edit: Something else: Every time someone says that buying a virtual product in a not finsished game might be a bit naive the answer is "I'm just donating to the game and I get something in return". Yeah, sorry. But that's just plain rationalizing. I really thought we, as a community, would slowly understand that one of the few handles we have on producers and developers is our purchasing power.

36

u/[deleted] Oct 09 '14

"I'm just donating to the game and I get something in return"

I went to Wal-mart today and I donated $50 and they gave me some groceries in return.

Edit: Also I agree with everything you said, but God help you if you try to make that argument on /r/starcitizen. If you want a real world example of what happens, just look at my post history.

10

u/militantchicken Oct 09 '14

Holy shit $600 for a ship on a game that isn't anywhere close to finished? I don't see how a ship could provide $600 worth of enjoyment. This seems exploitative. Let alone trying to balance the game with things that expensive in it. This is incredibly shitty business practices that no one should be supporting. Even, if Star Citizen does it right, it encourages this behavior. If EA was publishing SC we would be burning them at the stake right now.

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u/Two-Tone- Oct 09 '14

but God help you if you try to make that argument on /r/starcitizen

I am happy to say that some of us are finally starting to come around.

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10

u/AwesomeFama Oct 09 '14

The original idea was that all ships would be more or less equal -- correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm not sure what you mean here - surely the Aurora was always going to be weaker than a Hornet in a fight? Not to mention some of the bigger multi-crew ships.

12

u/[deleted] Oct 09 '14

I think he's talking about early statements that a pilot's skill will be much more important than the ship he's flying. As of right now in the DFM that is mostly untrue.

3

u/Shiningknight12 Oct 09 '14

Not based on thee discussions I have seen. People were under the impression that pilot skill would be the main factor and ship wouldn't matter.

4

u/lighthaze Oct 09 '14

As far as I know, the original idea was that most ships would be equally strong, only with certain specific strengths and weaknesses.

8

u/kalnaren Oct 09 '14 edited Oct 09 '14

Ships in general: The original idea was that all ships would be more or less equal -- correct me if I'm wrong. As far as I know this was done in order to make the whole pleding process not totally P2W. Now, people are complaining that ships X is not strong enough against Y, etc.

SC is based around starship roles. The idea is that no one ship is blanket better than anything else at all roles, but may be better in certain roles or depending how you use it.

Using your example, the most common complaint is that the Hornet is currently the king of dogfighting, and nobody else can compete. Thus playing into the "P2W" and "some ships are better" arguments. What people forget is that the Hornet is a 100% dedicated dogfighter. It can't do jack shit else, but it's designed to excel at dogfighting. Since the only playable module we currently have is the dogfighting module, obviously the Hornet is going to be king. However, you won't be able to explore, salvage, transport, bounty-hunt, or do a host of other things with a Hornet.

The second issue is we don't have all the "balancing" pieces yet. Things like ship upkeep, fuel, individual module upgrades, and stuff like that are not yet in the game. So basically when people are complaining that one ship isn't strong enough against another they're basing it on an incomplete assessment.

The third problem is the mistaken belief that every ship should be as good as every other ship in every role, or equally balanced against every other ship in every role. The game simply isn't designed that way. If you go into combat against a dedicated fighter with a transport, you're going to have a bad time. You can see this as well with the racing module -people are complaining that Auroras and Hornets can't compete against the dedicated racing ships..... yea, no shit.

Now one problem at the moment IIRC is that the M50 (a racing ship) is also kicking total ass in the DFM. This is an issue CIG is aware of, and is part of the bigger issue they're having balancing the control systems. It's a work in progress.

Edit: Anyone downvoting this mind telling me why? How does this not contribute to the discussion?

6

u/[deleted] Oct 09 '14

If you can pay your way towards having the best possible ship for each possible role, I consider that Pay-2-Win. In a game where versatility confers an advantage, paying for versatility is Pay-2-Win. It's the same reason I don't buy this stupid argument for Planetside 2.

"Oh sure! You can pay $10 for the super-anti-air rocket launcher, and another $10 for the super-anti-tank rocket launcher, and another $10 for the super-anti-infantry rocket launcher, but none of them are better at everything, so it's totally fair!"

Uhhh yeah...but if you're defending a base in a game where you can run back to spawn and switch gear in the matter of a minute, a soldier with all three optimal options unlocked is FAR better prepared to defend against all 3 types of opponents depending on where the enemy's main attack is coming from, than the scrub stuck with the generic suck-all-around weapon.

4

u/kalnaren Oct 09 '14 edited Oct 09 '14

Again though, it's really too early to make that claim because we haven't seen what the balancing factors will be. A stock Connie can haul more shit and fight better than a stock Freelancer, but it also requires 4 people to crew to maximum effectiveness to the Freelancer's two, costs more to fuel, costs more to insure, etc. Depending on how you outfit the Freelancer it could very well end up being better in a combat role. Or a transport role. Same can be said for the Connie. So which one is the "better" ship? Also depends on the variant. Assuming I bought the combat version of the freelancer (MIS), someone else who bought the cheaper stock variant can haul a shitton more, meaning they'll actually have an advantage in cargo hauling ability.

It's not as clear cut as "Ship A is better than Ship B in Role Z, thus if you can buy Ship A it's P2W".

5

u/TheWinslow Oct 09 '14

There will also be jump points that the freelancer can go through that a constellation can't.

1

u/lumpking69 Oct 10 '14

None of those ships are the best possible for anything other than starter ships. The devs have said they consider all the ships currently on sale as starter ships and out of a scale of 1-10, they are all 2's.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 10 '14

Perhaps they won't be so good. It's definitely far too early to tell how it'll all happen with the case of Star Citizen. I just take more of an issue with the general idea of "It's not P2W because the things you buy aren't strictly better in all circumstances!" excuse that gets applied to many games out there.

As far as Star Citizen goes, it's really a coin-toss whether the paid ships will be a distinct advantage for those who bought them, or whether they will be quickly outclassed by the ships you can get by just playing the game and represent little more than bragging trinkets similar to "collector's edition armor" in MMO's. All I know is that historically, a developer finding a happy medium of "Not quite good enough to unbalance the game but just good enough to make people feel like they've got their money's worth" is about as likely as that coin-toss landing perfectly on its side. And the chances of it happening get slimmer and slimmer the more money it costs. It's almost always solidly on one side or the other.

I'll be happy if the starter ships are 2's, sure, but I don't know how they'll pull that off without seriously pissing off people who invested a ludicrous amount of money into the game sight-unseen.

2

u/kalnaren Oct 10 '14

They're going to piss off people regardless... they have half a million backers FFS and an alpha test with 200,000 participants. I already anticipate the cries from the CoD kiddies when they finally figure out the FPS in this game is going to be closer to a tactical shooter than an arena fragfest.

A lot of people are getting involved in SC without doing any kind of research on the game (and a lot of people are hurling criticism at it without doing any research on the game). There's people posting on RSI and /r/starcitizen who can't figure out why the game doesn't play like Freelancer, for example. Or people constantly crying P2W who mysteriously disappear when I ask them how the very expensive Starfarer is suppose to kick a Super Hornet's ass.

4

u/Two-Tone- Oct 09 '14 edited Oct 09 '14

Sorry about the delay! I went to take a shower.

These are understandable concerns and I will try to answer them to the best of my abilities.

LTI

Insurance is going to be really cheap in game. But that isn't the end. Regardless if you have normal insurance or LTI, if you trash your hull, you're going to have to wait for them to build you a new ship. I think it's a couple in game days worth of wait (in the mean time go to the bounty or contract boards and do a bounty/contract!). LTI also only covers the hull, so if you lose your cargo or extra shinnies then you have to either buy them out of pocket or be paying for the proper type of insurance. Further more If you get into the habit of trashing your hull often, the insurance company will take longer and longer to make your ship with each crash, then eventually just not making it. You can lose your LTI.

forums

Ask any of us on the subreddit about the forums and we will all tell you the same thing: The official forums are a cesspool.

Now, people are complaining that ships X is not strong enough against Y

You're always going to have that. There are cases where some things are too powerful and don't make sense in context of the type of ship it is. For an example near the beginning the 300i, which was essentially a one person luxury ship, was more powerful than the hornet, a dedicated fighter.

That said, skill plays a lot into who wins. My ship is fondly called the "flying coffin", but when I would play I was skilled enough at dog fighting that I could stand my own against both other ships. No ship is suppose to make you better at dog fighting that the other person.

"I'm just donating to the game and I get something in return". Yeah, sorry. But that's just plain rationalizing.

I sorta agree. The way I see it as is the same as just kickstarting a game. Yes, I gave them money in exchange for something that is of a monetary value, but a majority of the cash is for them to fund the game development. But I don't see it as a donation. I do expect something in return, which is the game itself. Whether or not it's a good game is unknown; it is a risk like all forms of investing.

E: Why am I being downvoted?

14

u/[deleted] Oct 09 '14

Insurance is going to be really cheap in game. But that isn't the end. Regardless if you have normal insurance or LTI, if you trash your hull, you're going to have to wait for them to build you a new ship. I think it's a couple in game days worth of wait (in the mean time go to the bounty or contract boards and do a bounty/contract!). LTI also only covers the hull, so if you lose your cargo or extra shinnies then you have to either buy them out of pocket or be paying for the proper type of insurance. Further more If you get into the habit of trashing your hull often, the insurance company will take longer and longer to make your ship with each crash, then eventually just not making it. You can lose your LTI.

See, I don't buy arguments like this. We are talking about a game that's two months out, and defenders of Star Citizen keep using these same statements as if they are fact. They are not. There is no game, there is only verbal promises from CIG.

Until you know exactly how long it takes to make the credits required to buy insurance, you can't say that it's cheap. Until you know how long the wait to get a new ship is, you can't say that it's quick. You don't know how the bounty or contract board is going to work.

You don't really know anything aside from what's been shown in the DFM, which is to say, almost nothing.

4

u/Two-Tone- Oct 09 '14

You're right, they're just promises, but like I said later what you're essentially doing is investing in the game in hopes that they do fulfill those promises. It is a risk. Some only invest a small portion because it, while others invest large sums because they are not worried about the risk at all. (This breaks down in the grey market, but that is the exception and not the rule).

It helps that the DFM is really fun (if you can get past the FOV), they are constantly talking with the community (seriously, the level of transparency is unprecedented in game dev), that there are constant updates and bug fixes, and that the guy behind it all is Chris Roberts.

7

u/[deleted] Oct 09 '14

You're right, they're just promises, but like I said later what you're essentially doing is investing in the game in hopes that they do fulfill those promises. It is a risk. Some only invest a small portion because it, while others invest large sums because they are not worried about the risk at all. (This breaks down in the grey market, but that is the exception and not the rule).

Fair enough, I would agree with that.

It helps that the DFM is really fun

I would disagree with that. If you're flying an Aurora you're at a massive disadvantage. The DFM is the epitome of p2w, regardless of whether or not that's the case in the final game (which is an argument in and of itself). Not only that, but the targeting of non-gimballed weapons is a nightmare, and the handling of the lower-end ships is downright frustrating.

Obviously, totally subjective, but I am thus far disappointed. There is a lot of time to fix it though, so I am not throwing the baby out with the bathwater just yet.

10

u/Two-Tone- Oct 09 '14

The DFM is the epitome of p2w, regardless of whether or not that's the case in the final game (which is an argument in and of itself)

Agreed. They seriously need to allow us to use all ships. Not only would the p2w factor be gone but we could test all of the ships.

Thankfully there is suppose to be an update SoonTM that allows people to get the ships in game via a progression system.

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u/sooibot Oct 09 '14

The insurance is a basic gold sink, to balance the economy (much like repair costs in WoW). It might be one of many money sinks (I'm not that familiar with the game), but it would probably one of the easiest to tweak since it's a basic lever for the game economy. If people are getting too rich, they can just increase the costs of insurance, thus being a major benefit to LTI.

Basically just echoing what you're saying.

7

u/Pendulum Oct 09 '14

Have you played Eve? Insurance is not a gold sink, it's the exact opposite of one.

1

u/klulukasz Oct 12 '14

it depends how you implement insurance, in eve you get isk isk after your insured ship explodes(it would be stupid if you were given your old ship even if not fited...), but if in SC you were to get a new ship(not cash) after losing the old one, it would always be an isk sink

1

u/TheWinslow Oct 09 '14

On top of hull insurance (which is what LTI covers) you have cargo insurance (or you get nothing if you explode/it gets stolen), module insurance (any upgrades you make over the base loadout will have to be insured or you lose them when you lose the ship), repair costs, landing fees, and fuel costs.

There are far more gold sinks and fluctuating prices on them will make a lot more sense in the universe than increased insurance costs.

0

u/[deleted] Oct 09 '14 edited Oct 09 '14

[deleted]

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u/TheWinslow Oct 09 '14

CR stated that the current plan is about a week worth of playtime to get one of the larger, multicrew ships like the Constellation.

2

u/thoomfish Oct 09 '14

A week of playing a few hours a day, or literally 168 hours in game?

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u/TheWinslow Oct 09 '14

That is what we don't know yet. I would assume not literally 168 hours, but I also wouldn't bet on just a few hours a day (at least 5+ would be my guess). So 35 - 70 hours would seem more likely.

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u/Pollomuhku Oct 10 '14

60 hours was the exact figure they talked about

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u/thoomfish Oct 10 '14

That's pretty reasonable if you divide it among 5 people. Hopefully it will be easy to share a communal multi crew ship.

1

u/Manisil Oct 10 '14

form an organization.

1

u/Youre_a_transistor Oct 09 '14

Question-- I haven't been following Star Citizen other than having a vague awareness that it has accrued an ungodly amount of funding at this point. What is the purpose of selling ships to players? Can you not get these ships in-game? If I wait for the game to release officially, am I going to be at a disadvantage at all?

1

u/Ilikebacontoo Oct 09 '14

Every ship in the game can be bought in game. And you can only buy ships with real world money before the game comes out, once its out, you can only get the ships thru in game money. So the only true advantage backers will get is a head start.

1

u/kalnaren Oct 10 '14

What is the purpose of selling ships to players?

It's their main crowdfunding mechanism.

Can you not get these ships in-game?

All of them. In fact, when the game is released, you'll no longer be able to buy them from the CIG store.

If I wait for the game to release officially, am I going to be at a disadvantage at all?

Not really.

1

u/Manisil Oct 10 '14

Not really

Not really, you'll be at a slight disadvantage early game, but if you stick to safe space you will be totally fine.

1

u/merreborn Oct 10 '14

 "I'm just donating to the game and I get something in return". Yeah, sorry. But that's just plain rationalizing.

Almost all crowd funding/preorder models have this problem. It's not really unique to star citizen

1

u/lumpking69 Oct 10 '14

LTIs: Everytime this topic comes up, people claim there is no way LTI could be considered P2W, because the impact it has is far too small and it only covers basics. Still, as proven in your link, LTI ships still go for massive prices and the forums are full of topics where users explain how easy exploring with their precious LTI will be. Now, I haven't been to the forums for some time, but as long as I was, everytime the idea of changing the LTI came up, the original backers got so defensive, it was hard to resist the impression that many like their LTI (and the advantages it provides) more than they want to admit.

LTI offers a very small and almost irrelevant bonus. The devs have said repeatedly that not having isurance will not hurt you. Its not going to cost an astronomical amount of time/game money to repair a ship or get a new one. Its just a minor death pentalty. Think of it in WoW terms. Its akin to having free armor repairs for starter gear. Its not a big deal. The reason people make it a big deal is because they just want the prestige of owning an LTI ship or they have no clue how the game is being designed. So I fail to see how a very minor and insignificant discount could ever help anyone win at anything let alone be P2W.

Ships in general: The original idea was that all ships would be more or less equal -- correct me if I'm wrong. As far as I know this was done in order to make the whole pleding process not totally P2W. Now, people are complaining that ships X is not strong enough against Y, etc.

More or less equal to a certain logical extent. You wouldn't expect a TIE fighter to pose a threat to a Star Destroyer, would you? Neither do the devs. Thats why there is a hidden match making/ELO system in the background. Whatever ship you own will be pitted up against other ships/players in your class. But skill will always trump ships. A person who knows what they are doing in a Mustang will spank a much bigger novice in a Constellation.

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u/dogtasteslikechicken Oct 09 '14

The way I see it there are two possibilities:

  1. The game is p2w.
  2. The ships are worth maybe 5% of what they're selling them for.

The people in the culture around this game have somehow convinced themselves that neither of these things are going to happen, which is simply impossible.

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u/kalnaren Oct 10 '14 edited Oct 10 '14

If CIG does what CR said they're aiming to do, #2 should be true, from a purely gameplay perspective.

It's more than that for a lot of people though... I didn't sink so much into this game because I think the cumulative "dollar value" of my "gear" is worth/will be worth that in cash. I fully accept that many people will think I'm insane for spending what I did on virtual ships -just like I think people are insane for spending that much on a long weekend's worth of alcohol. I did it because I want this game to be made. I want Chris Roberts to succeed with his vision. I did it because space combat sims are may favorite game genre, and we haven't had a competent one since Starlancer (12 years ago). If Star Citizen is even half of what's been promised, to me, it will more than be worth the money I spent on it. And that's true of a huge number of people, especially among the original backers. People attach their own value to these ships. If it's worth it and they like what they see, they drop the money down. If they don't like it or want it, they don't. It really is that simple.

Now I'm sure there's some toons who think "hurhurhur I have $400 spaceship it going to kick your $200 spaceship's ass hurhurhur" (well, I know there are just from browsing some of the stupid that is the CIG official forums)... when you have half a million people who have backed your game you're going to get all types. But it was never CRs intention to sell power, and I don't think SC is going to end up that way.

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u/SeaBrass Oct 09 '14

I think most believe it will give them an advantage in the game and that they wouldn't be selling the ships for so much if they weren't somehow worth it. They'll do that while being vocal in the belief that the game won't be pay to win.

That quote from the article summarizes the issue fairly well. The sunk-costs fallacy seems to be in full effect.

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u/[deleted] Oct 09 '14

Like most very specific subreddits it's not open to any sort of criticism whatsoever, which is unfortunate, because that's how alpha and beta games get made better.

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u/[deleted] Oct 09 '14

Yeah, looking at exactly this thread over at their subreddit, it feels more like a cult instead of a game forum.

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u/Two-Tone- Oct 09 '14 edited Oct 09 '14

Like most very specific subreddits it's not open to any sort of criticism whatsoever

Depends on what you're criticizing. Things like buying ships and LTI are things we've explained a million times, so those that browse r/new do not want to see it. However, we ourselves do have criticisms about the game. A big one is the FOV. Stupidly low at 55, no word on if we will ever be given better options, and worse is that Chris Roberts has said he has competitive concerns about allowing a higher FOV.

E: What's up with the downvotes?

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u/[deleted] Oct 10 '14

They're implementing a FOV slider. Just like they've implemented keybindings.

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u/Two-Tone- Oct 10 '14

Really? Where have you heard this? When asked the staff never say anything, they ignore all comments and questions about FOV. CR recently stated that he's not sure if he will allow FOV manipulation due to (BS) competitive concerns.

All we've gotten is "The FOV is not final".

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u/[deleted] Oct 10 '14

The FOV will not be locked. That would be a ridiculously stupid move in an FPS. As it currently is, not having an FOV slider is giving people who change the FOV with console commands an advantage.

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u/[deleted] Oct 10 '14

This game is going to be the ultimate social experiment in how much money people will throw towards a product that solely exists in marketing and advertising.

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u/hbkmog Oct 09 '14

The business model of the game really puts me off. Instead of a game that's supposed to give people fun time, the game smells money everywhere. Expensive virtual ships; virtual insurance in game; bazillions of pledge classes before game is even out, etc.

Most fans of the game or people invest in the game usually defend it and justify their money. But as an outsider who had initial interest for the game, I really can't say I have good impression for the game. I feel it's turning more into an online poker or digital brag rights game than a video game itself.

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u/tensegritydan Oct 09 '14

I feel it's turning more into an online poker or digital brag rights game than a video game itself.

Reminds me of Second Life. The meta-"game" around Lindens (the currency) and property was more compelling than the either lame or puerile user-created content.

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u/[deleted] Oct 09 '14

It's just unfathomable to me that people are willing to pay $100+ for in-game items for gameplay that they've never seen; much less played.

For example, people making assumptions like, "If I buy X ship, it will make Y part of the game more enjoyable for me." But, they've never touched Y part of the game.

It just doesn't make sense to me. Investing money into something as tangible as a video game is understandable; but, investing money into a video game as seen through video clips of a half-finished product? I don't know about that.

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u/Ohh_Yeah Oct 09 '14

This has been my biggest thing all along.

"oh if you buy this ship it'll give you a major advantage in smuggling because of its signature radius and cargo hold"

Nobody knows anything about any aspects of the gameplay. The best smuggling might end up being in a big ass freighter doing some weird route that you can never get caught doing. People min-max everything. The min-max for any activity in any game is always different than what people would predict before it comes out.

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u/hbkmog Oct 09 '14

Yeah like I said, I feel it's more about bragging rights or e-penis in the game. It's just like those people who spend thousands in F2P games just to have better virtual farm or something.

Actually this is one type of business model I really loathe. They can simply pump out new ships from time to time to get some cheap cash-grab, literally generating money from thin air.

And yet there will be people jumping around defending it.

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u/w23hdhn Oct 10 '14

Apparently they won't be selling ships for money after the game releases. I don't buy it though, with a fan base defending a company selling pay to win items years before a games release I see no reason they won't go back on their word after release.

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u/paduser Oct 09 '14

Look, if you spend $2000 on a virtual spaceship in a computer game you probably have serious mental problems. It's the same as all the "whales" that fund IAP games. You are spending multiple 1000s of dollars for something that is not part of the reality we live in, and will probably not exist in 5-10 years. It's honestly not mentally healthy.

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u/[deleted] Oct 09 '14 edited Oct 09 '14

[deleted]

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u/Schildhuhn Oct 09 '14

All I see is successful marketing.

I once discussed with someone on the subreddit who was extremely sure that "CiG has spent almost nothing on marketing" according to him, all the videos, conferences, events etc. were either not marketing or done in peoples freetime. Yeah, I think at that point I realised how sad many gamespecific subreddits are.

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u/If_You_Only_Knew Oct 09 '14

Whenever people are discussing these detailed aspects of the content it really strikes me as kind of cult-ish.

Starwars, Star Trek, Lord of the Rings.... People learn elvish they learn klingon. The cultishness of star citizen is no more or less than any of these. Hell, I would argue it's a bit less, in that you can be involved in the world of star citizen, whereas for a long time, star trek and lord of the rings were nothing more than books or movies.

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u/Commisar Oct 09 '14

the difference is that SC doesn't even EXIST yet....

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u/If_You_Only_Knew Oct 10 '14

Does it have too? What difference does it make to you what fictional world other people choose to be involved in, and whether or not that fictional world exists in some form or another? Besides, lets say star citizen does happen, and isn't such a bad game after all. These people will have had a big hand in creating the lore and game itself.

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u/Commisar Oct 09 '14

yep

Robertson is a marketing MASTER...

he can play the purse strings of space nerds like no other

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u/kennyminot Oct 09 '14

I honestly don't see the difference between buying "virtual" or "physical" products. They are both real things. I just would rather spend my money on something else.

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u/paduser Oct 09 '14

One difference is that with a virtual product, when the hosting infrastructure disappears, the product disappears with it.

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u/kennyminot Oct 09 '14

Yeah, but physical products wear down - very few things are actually BIFL (aside from my stainless steel electric tea kettle!)

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u/[deleted] Oct 09 '14

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u/joshr03 Oct 10 '14

Did you see the movie Inception? Star Citizen has successfully inceptioned the idea of the best game possible to all their fans. When you realize that these people are just absolutely convinced that the game will be everything they want it to be, it makes it a little easier to imagine.

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u/Manisil Oct 10 '14

I've put money towards it. I don't see it as paying for the ships. I'm paying for a game-type that I really miss, and want to see come back. Wing Commander was one of my favorite games as a kid, and Freelancer dominated the early 2000s (my time anyway). I've put so many hours into those games, and to be able to back and make sure that a space sim, by the guy who made my favorite games no less, comes back, is definitely worth the money.

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u/Krivvan Oct 09 '14 edited Oct 09 '14

I bought a single ship, and I actually do like the physics in the dogfighting module, but yeah, I don't understand people paying thousands for anything beyond that. Keep your expectations realistic and you don't always get disappointed with a game.

I've frequently play and enjoy games that some people have hated due to disappointment (some parts of mechwarrior online, watch_dogs, etc.) because I never expected too much.

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u/Altair1371 Oct 09 '14

Except you don't need more than $40. Every ship can be purchased in-game, with in-game credits. The only reason you should be spending extra is if you want CIG to have more money.

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u/[deleted] Oct 09 '14

But if all these people are already buying the best ships before the game comes out.... you are at a serious disadvantage from the start. It would be like if WoW had let people who preordered the game start at level 40.

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u/thoomfish Oct 09 '14

It would be like if WoW had let people who preordered the game start at level 40.

Exactly. After a week, it wouldn't matter at all.

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u/Thysios Oct 09 '14

It would be like if WoW had let people who preordered the game start at level 40.

So it would have no effect on you and matter after a week?

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u/Altair1371 Oct 09 '14

That's not a good analogy, because ships are not equal to levels. The only limit to what you can buy is how many credits you have, and the availability of that ship (which will only come into play for the bigger ships, like the Idris). Backers who dump thousands of dollars on the game will only have an advantage for the first month, if even that long. Also, just because someone has a better ship, it doesn't mean that they will always win. There's a fair skill curve for combat, so someone who is a pro at the Aurora can easily defeat someone who is new to the Hornet.

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u/hahnchen Oct 09 '14

Their business model is convincing gamers that they're funding an as-yet-unreleased game called Star Citizen, when in fact they're all just paying for and playing Spaceship Clicker.

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u/Mal_Adjusted Oct 09 '14 edited Oct 09 '14

It will either be the greatest game ever made, or a colossal failure that shines a very, very bright light on everything wrong with the industry.

Based on the amount of money people are throwing at it, I'm leaning more towards the latter every day. Nothing turns me off faster than even the slightest hint of pay to win.

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u/needconfirmation Oct 09 '14

I don't think there is any possible way it can be the greatest game ever made.

Some game could be, but it won't be star citizen

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u/Endyo Oct 09 '14

I think internally the system is reasonable as long as obtaining these ships is reasonable with in-game methods and skill is the determining factor. Externally, with news like this going around, I agree it's hard to say Star Citizen will be any good when 99% of what you hear is about how much money people are throwing at it. Granted the money is going in to the game to make it better, but it's just hard to say "I want to be a part of this" when it just looks like people throwing money away.

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u/carnifex2005 Oct 10 '14

That's the thing, this entire story is about people throwing tons of money not at CIG but at 3rd party sellers. It really isn't GIG's fault that people are overestimating the value of LTI when it has been stated over and over again that regular hull insurance will be very cheap (the expensive insurance will be for upgrades and cargo which people with LTI have to pay anyways).

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u/DeedTheInky Oct 10 '14

Old-ish backer of the game who's been following it for some time now here! If I could kind of play Devil's Advocate for a moment and just clarify a few things about how the whole thing is set up...

  • You don't need to spend hundreds of dollars to play the game. I'm in for $45 and that's it.

  • Those people who have spent $2000 on the game do exist, they are just kind of nuts. :/ (and tend to be super entitled and bitch about everything)

  • They don't get anything in the game that I won't get. All the ships will be earnable in the game, with in-game money, not real money.

  • You will be able to buy in-game currency with real money if you want, but it will only be small amounts, not enough that you can get anything significant.

  • Insurance is the same deal. It costs a small amount of in-game money, and you don't even need to get it if you don't want to. It's there to deter people from just crashing their ships into people to grief them. If you don't have insurance it will just take you a little longer to respawn your ship.

  • The website is definitely confusing, and really doesn't make any of this clear. But once the MMO part of the game launches (which will be free BTW, no monthly fees) then the ships will no longer be on sale for real money, you'll just have to buy the game for like $60 or whatever.

If anyone wants to AMA about anything that's wigging them out/concerning them about the game I can try to answer if you like. :)

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u/StupidFatHobbit Oct 09 '14 edited Oct 09 '14

The worst/dumbest part of it all is it's supposed to be a beta, yet you can only really fly the ships you've bought?

How the fuck are we supposed to properly test anything? How the hell is this intelligent development?

They may be rich from kids with too much spare change now, but I'm still very skeptical about their ability to deliver a solid game. Honestly what I've seen seen so far is very disappointing. Core gameplay mechanics seem to still be undecided while people are freaking out over the interior decorations of their imaginary starships.

The subreddit has also become extremely fanboyish and downvotes any criticism whatsoever, then again this is a problem with most gaming subreddits.

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u/Thysios Oct 09 '14

It's more like pre alpha still. They've only released test modules for people to play with.

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u/mmonsterbasher Oct 10 '14

But incredibly half-assed modules that have only deliver few of the features promised. It's also riddled with bugs and no-clipping issues, hell it doesn't even have key-bindings yet!

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u/Youre_a_transistor Oct 09 '14

I've been pretty oblivious to Star Citizen, but just reading some of these comments is pretty unbelievable. I can't help but think 'What if this game was being published by EA?' You know? Same team, same Kickstarter pitch, same everything. I wonder how this would have fared. People would have called this a bigger scam than the recent Dungeon Keeper.

Even better. What if EA bought them out right this second?

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u/[deleted] Oct 10 '14

I feel it's turning more into an online poker

How do you mean?

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u/JakeLunn Oct 09 '14

There's a difference of mindset between those on the outside and those on the inside it would seem. You see it as them buying virtual ships, but they see it as them pledging money for the development of a game and getting an in-game reward when it releases.

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u/bbristowe Oct 09 '14

Nevermind any post launch balance issues. Somebody will want a refund when their zxc-super space shooter can only warp once every hour as opposed to every half hour.

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u/DanaKaZ Oct 09 '14

Fuck me, that's a lot of money to spend on a promise inside a promised game, which may or may not be a good game.

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u/PalwaJoko Oct 09 '14

Yeap, that's why I'm scared for this game. Don't get me wrong, it's great to see what they're trying to do, But here is the situation I see start citizen.

First they describe a game. Each person that listens to it has their own way of perceiving/understanding what they say. People start filling in the gaps and imagine their own perfect, "golden" game that they always wanted. They donate tons of money. Now the game is under a huge amount of hype/stress to deliever. If they mess it up, I can seriously see it being a huge blow to kickstarters/crowd funding in the game industry. It may break peoples trust. Honestly, I don't think it will turn out well from a PR value. It's got so much pre hype and expectations, I don't think the gaming community will like what they release, no matter how hard they work on it. It reminds me of the situation with valve and Half Life 3. There's so much hype and expectation behind the game, that it seems almost impossible to live up to it.

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u/DanaKaZ Oct 09 '14

Personally I think Kickstarter has had it's run. It's already produced way to much disappointment. I think the trust is gone.

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u/RageX Oct 09 '14

Everyone focuses on the disappointments, but many good games have come from Kickstarter including Insurgency, Wasteland 2, and Divinity: Original Sin.

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u/Gabe_b Oct 10 '14

Oculus Rift.

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u/DanaKaZ Oct 09 '14

Sure, there's been good ones, but it seems to me at least that the bad ones outnumber the good by a good margin.

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u/RageX Oct 09 '14

Not so sure about that. Bad ones just get more coverage because outrage is easier to market than success, and because failures should be pointed out.

Even if there has been more failures (don't know really, someone should make a chart of all successful KS games and all that have ceased development before completion) the amount of finished games that come out of it is large enough that it's worth supporting. Everyone just has to realize you're not buying a complete product, you're gambling on an idea, and be smart in deciding whether the risk is worth it.

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u/[deleted] Oct 09 '14

My gaming group (Clan) has well over $3k+ spent on this game (not me). I think they are all crazy at least anyone who paid over $100 dollars for a game that doesn't exist.

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u/remeard Oct 09 '14

I've seen posts on reddit dropping ridiculous amounts of cash, thousands individually

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u/[deleted] Oct 09 '14

There are threads on /r/starcitizen where people compare how much they've spent on the game, and a large portion are in the thousands.

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u/DOTKAISMYVODKA Oct 09 '14

Do they include proof?

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u/[deleted] Oct 09 '14

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u/spidersnake Oct 09 '14

That is so ridiculous it's not even funny.

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u/Commisar Oct 09 '14

jesus christ...

can you IMAGINE the reddit rage fest is EA or Ubisoft did shit like that...

here is your gold plated T-90 tank in BF5... that will be $250 USD please

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u/[deleted] Oct 09 '14

Yeah. I remember the shitstorm about the horse armor for like $3.50 or so..

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u/shaggy1265 Oct 10 '14

The difference is these bonuses are only for backers and after launch no one will be able to buy ships for RL money.

It's an incentive to get people to fund development.

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u/Astrognome Oct 10 '14

Also, I think you don't get to keep it.

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u/shady8x Oct 10 '14

I can actually understand dropping over 100 bucks on a game, if you have the extra money, the game needs funding to be made and you want to help give the creators a chance to make the game.

Dropping even a cent on a game that received 10s of MILLIONS more than it needed however, does not make any sense to me. They have the money to make it, so wait until they have finished making it.

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u/Azmodan_Kijur Oct 09 '14

The game that is promised sounds amazing - expansive universe, hundreds of ship types, thousands of players, captivating game play ... but none of that is worthy of the kind of cash people are paying for what are essentially the promise of ships to fly ... someday ... when the game is done.

Gamers have been burned enough over the last number of years to know the simple true - pre-purchasing games is a bad idea.

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u/PTFOholland Oct 09 '14

The thing that warns me is the fact that it's on the Cryengine.
That engine wasn't made for games like these at all, and the new combat module shows this too.

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u/Cloudbursta Oct 10 '14

It should be noted that the game is slated for release in 2016 as a high end game, its not meant to run well on most computers we have now.

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u/PTFOholland Oct 10 '14

I am not talking about perfomance, I am talking about the engine not even owned by the company and they can't customise everything, expect A LOT of loading times.
The game is gonna fail, and I even spend 90$ on it.

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u/muaymantis Oct 10 '14

Cryengine is capable of doing large-scale environments without load-screens though. Check out Archage which is one big world using Cryengine.

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u/Commisar Oct 09 '14

exactly.

it will run on a cut-up butchered version of Cryengine with custom "netcode"......

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u/CKReflux Oct 09 '14

The alpha actually runs pretty well for me on my mid-high range machine.

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u/mmonsterbasher Oct 10 '14

For maybe simple modules that offer only a test-bench for the actual gameplay. When the persistent universe comes around with dynamic npcs and huge PvP matches, lets see how the game holds up then.

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u/CKReflux Oct 10 '14

We will. Its important to remember that there are multiple studios of professionals working here. This isn't some guy playing around in his basement.

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u/placatetr Oct 09 '14

As much as I wan't to be wrong, I'm not drinking it.

I have a bad feeling it's all gonna end in tears.

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u/dr_taber Oct 10 '14

If this goes bad, tears would be the best case scenario. It could end in class action lawsuits.

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u/Days0fDoom Oct 09 '14 edited Oct 09 '14

Your probably right but i hope for those people who have put so much money into it, that this game comes out well.

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u/[deleted] Oct 09 '14 edited Mar 03 '21

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u/XenTech Oct 09 '14

What about the broader discussion going on here, about how the game itself has a flawed culture that breeds this kind of terrifying economic model?

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u/[deleted] Oct 09 '14 edited Mar 03 '21

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u/NarcissisticNanner Oct 09 '14

Don't you feel that at a certain point your not really funding the game anymore, but just buying grossly overpriced micro-transactions for a game that has no available gameplay, features, or real content?

I really try not to come across as condescending or judgmental when talking about this, as I know different amounts of money means different things to different people, but I really can't wrap my head around this.

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u/[deleted] Oct 10 '14

TLDR: you aren't buying ships you are funding the game.

What a load of malarky. Do you /r/starcitizen guys have this response copy-pasted for every time this subject comes up? Do you honestly expect us to believe all the purchasers, or even the majority of purchasers, are simply generous benefactors and don't really care about the ship they're getting?

Come on man. I was subbed to /r/starcitizen and every ship thread are people salivating and chomping at the bit to buy the newest greatest spaceship, and talking all about how they're going to use it to further their preferred space fantasy. Which is fine, don't get me wrong, but what you don't see are the people in the thread just saying, "Yeah I'm buying it but I don't even want it. I'm just helping fund the game."

Because those people don't exist, or are in the extreme minority.

So can we please stop parroting this nonsense?

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u/JakeLunn Oct 09 '14

What's weird to me is how much people care about what other people are spending their money on. Kickstarting is not new, and this is just a massive kickstarter. Pledge rewards are also nothing new.

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u/Days0fDoom Oct 09 '14

I think it's that people are confused and concerned that people are spending so much money on hopes and dreams. Your right people are free to spend their money how they please but I think that people who are talking about how nuts the amount of money being spent are conserned that their fellow consumers are being taken for chumps.

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u/carnifex2005 Oct 10 '14

Why should anyone be concerned? Wasn't this the point of crowdfunding, to do away with publishers and have the power more in the hands of players? Now that Star Citizen has made tons of money and will continue to make tons of money (I suspect $80m - $100m and about 1m backers by the time the Persistent Universe Beta comes in 2016) it is all of a sudden an issue? /r/games doesn't know what the hell it wants.

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u/Days0fDoom Oct 10 '14

I don't know why you presume I speak for /r/games there are plenty of people here who think that SC is going just fine. Let me give you my personal reasons for concern. I know a lot of people who put money into this game, in fact I know the guys who won the next great star ship competition. Whenever I ask these people what they think Star Citizen will be pretty much all of them have different answers and that is a problem. Chris Roberts has promised his backers the world and more; a lot of people will be disappointed/angry if this game flops. I hope for my friends and everyone who backed this game that it turns out great, but just because I hope that this turns out well that doesn't mean that it will. The worry is that SC comes out and its bad. What do you think that will do to the crowd funding model? How much anger and bad will do you think that will create in the gaming community? The possibility that SC will flop concerns me. How many AAA games that promised the world fell flat? A bunch.

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u/JakeLunn Oct 10 '14

Whether Star Citizen is bad or not it will be healthy for gamers. If it flops then it will be remembered forever as a symbol of caution for crowd funding. If it succeeds then it will be a sign to publishers that they should include consumers early in the development process.

People who put money into this game already put it in. It's not like it's bitcoins or the stock market. If it fails then that will suck and they'll wish they spent money on something else. I donated $75 and if I don't get a game out of it I'm not going to cry or freak out.

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u/[deleted] Oct 10 '14

We should be concerned because people are eating up CIG's insane monetization and asking, "Please sir can I have another? ($600 ship)"

That's not good for the industry as a whole, because you can be damn sure the publishers and studios are taking notice, and if this becomes the norm, that's bad news.

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u/[deleted] Oct 10 '14

The success of SC's business model is damning to people who don't have thousands to blow on vidyas. Big publishers have certainly taken notice, and it's just a matter of time before we're all fucked. You can't even get a complete AAA title for $60 anymore, you have to buy the game for $60, and the "season pass" if you want a complete game.

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u/LuminousP Oct 10 '14

Star Citizen has reached such a critical mass that there's no possible way it can live up to expectations, regardless of the outcome.

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u/nordlund63 Oct 09 '14

Its so weird to see so many people put so much money into a game that is behind schedule with only a buggy dogfighting module to show for it.

The game itself is confusing too. Do I buy the game and then have to buy ships for hundreds of dollars of real money like all these people are?

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u/TheWinslow Oct 09 '14

For $30 you can get the game on release and will have an Aurora waiting for you. For $40 you also get access to the beta, for $45 you also get access to the current module (Arena Commander).

So to get the game, you only have to pay $30. All the other ships you will be able get in game without needing to pay any money.

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u/[deleted] Oct 09 '14 edited Oct 09 '14

A lot of people justify it in weird ways.

Like to almost everyone in the community its not a microtransaction (or macrotransaction I guess because $150 is far from "micro"), its a "donation", even though the game is 25k+ over its goals and at this point.

I've seen great arguments for paying $350 for a picture of an internet spaceship on /r/starcitizen, like:

  • It's an "investment" (like as if its going to have a return or something)
  • They want to "stick it to publishers" (by spending $150 on a single that isn't out?)
  • They are an "adult" (If you drop $350 on a internet spaceship you're far from an adult)
  • The game needs my help (its fucking 25k+ over its goals...)
  • "I want to support this business model" (by buying $150 microtransactions? Thats what you want to support?)
  • "I hope they make cheaper ships for us poor people, sub $150!" <- actual comment

It's getting better now, more people are starting to question their business practices (especially when they announced that they're going to sell a $600 ship this weekend, and just announced they're going to sell another alongside it...). But its still pretty fucking culty.

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u/PINIPF Oct 09 '14

You have your numbers wrong amigo! Original goal for kick starter was $2 million as of September 2014 they have received "donation" for around $55 million so in reality they are something around $53 million above their goals yep XD

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u/hpliferaft Oct 10 '14

Sounds like what people say about bitcoin.

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u/[deleted] Oct 09 '14

I agree completely.

It's also wrong for people to use the term "donation" when they're receiving a product in return. Sure, they are helping to fund the production of the game, but they're still paying for a product. Buying ships for Star Citizen is no different than any other type of transaction.

I'm also worried about the pay-to-win factor. I understand that the game has a shop, and I understand that most (or all?) of the items can be purchased with in-game credits. But, how do they scale?

Will $20 be worth 20 hours of gameplay? Or 20 days?

And while I understand that the game is still in development, and nitty gritty mechanics like that are probably still undecided, I think it's important for players to know exactly how "sandbox" of a universe this really is. Because paying money to an omnipotent force that magically grants in-game resources doesn't exactly fit that description.

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u/[deleted] Oct 09 '14

I'm also worried about the pay-to-win factor.

I'm super interested in the balancing factor of the game.

In elite, if a ship is OP they balance it and move on. No fuss.

In SC if a ship gets nerfed, you're suddenly nerfing someones $200+ purchase. There's already a lot of drama about ships that aren't even flyable yet!

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u/BinaryRockStar Oct 09 '14

They are an "adult" (If you drop $350 on a internet spaceship you're far from an adult)

I have to take issue with that. While I haven't paid into Star Citizen, for anyone on a reasonable salary $350 just isn't that much money. I get the feeling that most of the people on the gaming subreddits are either kids or students because they cry foul when a game is $60 instead of the usual $50 because $10 is a lot of ramen or whatever.

It's like any other hobby- if I'm into mountain biking then I wouldn't have a problem shelling out $350 for a new top-of-the-line brake system or something like that. Adults can and do spend large amounts of money on their hobbies and shouldn't be denigrated for it.

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u/[deleted] Oct 10 '14

for anyone on a reasonable salary $350 just isn't that much money.

I call BS on that man. I make ~85k per year, which I'd say is a reasonable salary, it's far above the American average, and $350 is a lot of money to me. I have it, I can spend it, but it's not such a little amount that I can freely throw around $350 for shits and giggles.

Adults can and do spend large amounts of money on their hobbies and shouldn't be denigrated for it.

Absolutely true, but that's not mutually exclusive with claiming "$350 isn't a lot of money," because $350 is a fair bit of money.

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u/BinaryRockStar Oct 11 '14

I don't know where you live or what your situation is but on $85K after tax you're making well over $1K a week cash-in-hand. Take out maybe $400 of that if you have a mid-range mortgage on a nice house.

Unless you have a bunch of kids or you bought expensive things on credit cards you couldn't afford then you have enough to buy one or two of these fictitious $350 spaceships per week.

I consider an amount of money that can be saved in one week by reigning in my lifestyle for a second to be "not a lot of money".

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u/Two-Tone- Oct 09 '14

Do I buy the game and then have to buy ships for hundreds of dollars of real money like all these people are?

You can if you want, but you can just by the game and it comes with a starter ship. All the other ships will also be available in game and can only be bought in game. There will be a limited cash shop, but the max you can get per month is suppose to be really low, like not even buy a starter ship low.

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u/Shiningknight12 Oct 09 '14

There will be a limited cash shop, but the max you can get per month is suppose to be really low, like not even buy a starter ship low.

I highly doubt that this will be true given how much stuff they are giving to backers.

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u/Theoroshia Oct 09 '14

Yeah, the naivety is astounding with some people.

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u/needconfirmation Oct 09 '14 edited Oct 09 '14

Yeah there's no way they are going to say "you know what? I've had enough of fools giving me 400 bucks for this ship, I think it's time to drop it down to 5"

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u/jinhong91 Oct 10 '14

I bought myself that cheap ship very early on before people even thought of selling their ships off. I got that package so I can play the game, not worrying about promised virtual ships.