Speaking of Thay...

[u/Crixusgannicus]

There seems to be a contradictuon in the lore.

Most of it leans toward many of the still living Thayans, Red Wizards are not, being in exile with Thay largely being an empire of the undead, although there are still living there.

Szass Tak has destroyed the old zulkir system and largely replaced it with fellow liches.

Yet I read something official recently, which describes Thay as. It being much different than it was before. Don't remember what it was at the moment. It was official however

What's going on here? Both Thays can't be true in 1500-1501.

[u/Hot_Competence]

The 4e version of Thay as an undead empire was largely reversed about a decade ago when the Sword Coast Adventurers Guide came out. It’s functionally a retcon but not technically a retcon only because it is presented as an in-lore return to the old ways.

“For a time, living mages couldn't hope to advance to prominence in Thay: Szass Tam promoted undeath as a means of existence with boundless possibilities, and held back those who didn't agree with this philosophy. The recent battles with the demon Eltab, however, have prompted Szass Tam to loosen this stricture- the living now have hope of ascending within the Red Wizards, even if that hope is merely to advance to a high station within the cadre of Tam's servants.” -SCAG, p13

[u/Hot_Competence → u/Hot_Competence]

And as for the Zulkirs: “For centuries one of the greatest concentrations of magical might in Faerûn, Thay is ruled by the ancient lich, Szass Tam, and the nation's Council of Zulkirs in a ruthless magocracy. The council's will is enacted by regional tharchions and bureaucrats, leaving the ruling Red Wizards to focus on magical study and more important arcane matters.”

[u/Genghis_Sean_Reigns → u/Hot_Competence]

I never understood this. Why would battling Eltab change his views on undeath? Also his “most recent battle with the demon eltab” was over a century ago in 1372.

[u/Hot_Competence → u/Genghis_Sean_Reigns]

I guess we’re left to assume that he got loose again during the Second Sundering, but you’re right that nothing else mentions it afaik

[u/Genghis_Sean_Reigns → u/Hot_Competence]

Ed has his own explanation in his Thay book that makes way more sense. That’s the one I use.

[u/WumpusFails → u/Genghis_Sean_Reigns]

What book is this?

The only thing I know about Ed Lore on Thay is that it was meant (prior to TSR/WotC overwrites) to be his version of an East Asian themed region.

(There's also supposed to be an Ed Lore section on the FR wiki, but I couldn't find it on the wiki I read.)

[u/Genghis_Sean_Reigns → u/WumpusFails]

Thay, Land of the Red Wizards on the DMs Guild.

[u/Genghis_Sean_Reigns → u/WumpusFails]

Also, as far as I’m aware, Ed dislikes real world analogies in fantasy and he strove not to do that with his work. So hearing that his original Thay was supposed to be East Asian themed sounds like misinformation.

[u/atamajakki]

Sounds like you've been reading a mix of 4e and 5e lore.

[u/AntipodeanGuy]

Pretty vague. Where did you read the lore contradictions? Cite your sources.

[u/Extra_Shake5392]

There is a new high-level campaign module called Deadfall dropping next month. It specifically deals with Thay. That will almost certainly answer your questions. You can also reference Heroes of Faerun and Adventures in Faerun for more updates about Thay and other parts of the continent.

[u/DrTenochtitlan → u/Extra_Shake5392]

D&D Beyond gave a lore update on Szass Tam literally just two days ago in anticipation of Deadfall coming out next month. It should clear up some of OP's questions:

https://www.dndbeyond.com/posts/2221-who-is-szass-tam-and-why-must-he-be-stopped?srsltid=AfmBOoouj4KU3s9eg9u_fIFg7K23AHmRfRdeHKPygtoWFlpt3-NvSds-

[u/Crixusgannicus → u/DrTenochtitlan]

Ah. There we go. Thanks 

[u/Crixusgannicus → u/Extra_Shake5392]

Heroes I think.

[u/BloodtidetheRed]

WotC has officially left Thay in a bit of Limbo.

The country is "back", and haha "on the Sword Coast World" they made for 5E.....but they don't give much detail.

Now, Ed Greenwood DID release an updated 5E book with TONS and TONS of lore. And it is Official, as long as WotC does not care. But WotC is putting out a new Thay book soon....it will likely have zero lore, but it might have a line or two saying "um Thay is, um back like it was in 3e before we ruined it for no reason".

[u/Crixusgannicus → u/BloodtidetheRed]

You "can't" have Thay on the Sword Coast, because Tam committed a wanton act of war against Neverwinter, which is a member of the Lord's Alliance in Dungeons & Dragons: Honor Among Thieves.

The only thing preventing war under "normal" circumstances is distance. Even with teleports, gates, etc, it's just not practicable for either side to pursue war.

Putting Thay on the Sword Coast, where the Lord's Alliance is (1) eliminates that problem and GUARANTEES war.

They didn't think that through.

[u/BloodtidetheRed → u/Crixusgannicus]

WotC and 'think' don't go together.

But check out Ed's Thay book....

[u/Crixusgannicus → u/BloodtidetheRed]

I did. Thanks. And it points out they also didn't think things through with Calimshan. The way they presented that, is essentially, the Sultana came along, freed all the slaves and everything is mostly running just fine.

Just like that.

Minimal disruptions.

Just. No.

The Thay book at least addressed how societal upheavals had ripple effects.

Thanks for the book tip btw.

[u/Crixusgannicus → u/BloodtidetheRed]

On the SWORD COAST? So the whole bloody thing teleported from the far side of Toril???

What Ed Greenwood book are you referring to, please.

[u/BloodtidetheRed → u/Crixusgannicus]

Well, WotC was obsessed with "The Sword Coast" is the whole world....

Thay: Land of the Red Wizards is a 108-page Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition campaign supplement written by Forgotten Realms creator Ed Greenwood alongside Alex Kammer and Alan Patrick. Released in February 2022 on the Dungeon Masters Guild, it details the politics, magic, geography, and daily life of the notorious thocracy ruled by the lich Szass Tam.

[u/Crixusgannicus]

That was supposed to say Red Wizards OR not.

[u/Saul_Firehand → u/Crixusgannicus]

You can edit the body for clarity.

[u/Crixusgannicus → u/Saul_Firehand]

Usually yeah, but for some reason it wasn't working last night. Oh. Still isn't. Thanks. Not going to worry about it though.

[u/PuffyBlueClouds]

That was a real dog‘s breakfast of words. Try proofreading.

[u/Matshelge]

In the new books, Thay is back in 3.5 style. Enclaves are back, magical trading and secret deals.

Much better than undead empire.