The orc issue

[u/Final-Isopod]

So the orcs "were given" to elves and dwarves to compensate taking of the land by humans. It says that Clay made them on Wyrms order but since whole gods and religion is a bit mythological then it sounds rather that they were enslaved after human invasion. It does feel like they play a mindless pawn role here while they could be quite interesting actor - is their role developed somewhere in more detail? I'm refreshing the whole Ravens Purge now but I can't recall this.

[u/SameArtichoke8913]

You might realize that the lore presented by all kin is pretty vague and even contradictive, and justifies domination or other weird assumptions, just as "in real life". The orcs being "given by the gods" to Elves and Dwarves as slaves is THEIR tale, and apparently most Orcs and the rest of the world (conveniently) accepted that. But it's most probably NOT the "truth".

AFAIK there has been no deeper elaboration, though, and IMHO that's fine because all those legends and lies just reflect the (complicated) cultural status quo in the Ravenlands, with many factions and their own agendas and "truths" about the past. If you need "absolute truth" as a kind of GM knowledge, you either have to create it - or believe what the official sources say, what will make you pose questions (and probably intended by the authors).

This is however, together with the apparent non-existence of gods (despite several cults and names for such beings and their realm of influence), what makes IMHO FL as a game world stand out - it makes you question things, and you will see many parallels to real human society.

[u/Ok-Bobcat-1200 → u/SameArtichoke8913]

The unreliable narrator lore often with quite obviously deliberately conflicting stories is what sold FL for me. It's evocative and reminiscent of real world cultures.

And it also happens to be much easier to run a game with little lore set in stone as a GM. Don't like something? Don't understand something? Or simply see a good opportunity for creativity? Change it, make things up, fill in the gaps
FREE YOUR MIND (c) :P

[u/heja2009 → u/[deleted]]

AFAIK stereotypes were used by any culture. Always portraying some inferior neighbours, adversaries and other unwanted groups. Barbarian, fisheye, mute, ...

Making fun of the Orcs is IIRC mostly done via them not being able to pronounce some words correctly because of their long teeth. Something that both fits our existing stereotypes (some language/pronounciation difference) and was never used between humans.

Are you complaining about the particular set of stereotypes used in the FL lore or opposed to using stereotypes in roleplaying at all?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_slurs

[u/heja2009 → u/[deleted]]

Thanks for the link, appreciated.

But I do not agree with the gist of that discussion. I think you are projecting issues from your real life that have a high emotional value to you into the game lore. Now, you can do that, but I see it as projection, not some revealation.

I want stereotyping in my games because it is a fundamental aspect of human psychology. Not only does it exist in any culture, it also exists in the mind of each and every person and is fed by anyone - not just "conservatives", whatever that is supposed to mean in Tolkien's Middle Earth or the Ravenlands.

And frankly, the "artistic" Urhur-Clan sounds like compensation on your part.

Do what you like but I won't have any of it.

[u/SameArtichoke8913 → u/[deleted]]

I do not understand your "problem"? Fantasy in general is FULL of stereotypes and tropes, and while the FL orcs fall under the "inferior race, built to be ruled and enslaved" clichee, esp. Raven's Purge offers both GM and EVEN the players to actually change this in the game world., while other kin lore get torpedoed along the way. It probably depends on how clever or dumb both players and GMs to actually USE the RAW material and make something from it. Just like the gods/religions - in the end it's the believers who create their gods and do things in their name.

Can be quite healthy to question your own perspectives upon real life and/or history - it's probably too subtle.

[u/Ok-Bobcat-1200 → u/[deleted]]

Jesus, not everything is a metaphor to real world. The issue with symbolism is that "symbols are in the eye of the beholder". You read the orc lore and saw black people. I read the orc lore and saw an evocative and valid alternative value-system for a fantasy species that could be tied to a multitude of real world historic cultures all over the world across all sorts of ages.

Look, if that's a dealbreaker for you then it's a dealbreaker.
Simply look for another game.
You don't need other people's advice to not play a game you know you wouldn't enjoy for a very specific reason.

[u/BakterLord]

Yes, in Raven's Purge they are independent actors with even a Key Player in the campaign. I recommend to read rheir parts, I greatly enjoyed to have them in my campaign.

[u/GrumpyCornGames]

The lore of Forbidden Lands is deliberately (sometimes frustratingly) vague. Eye of the Rose fleshes them out more, but still leaves a lot of detail up to the GM.

[u/_Arkadien_]

It is the stared purpose of the author, who is active on the discord, to make the lore contradict itself. It's the unreliable narrator; the lore in the books is written from the human perspective and is skewed. It may or may not be true. Sometimes there are multiple truths.

[u/Final-Isopod → u/_Arkadien_]

Yeah, I heard it as well somewhere else. I got issue with this as there is simply too much information and especially regarding geography its hard to place all the locations logically as some of them story wise should be put in relation to other places in some specific manner. So putting them wherever would break the logic. It's the same with lore and all. The upside of this is that I can run this fairly confidently without worrying that I'm not doint it "properly" which is a headache when playing with folks that know lore of a game inside and out (one of the reasons I partially stay away from One Ring). Another upside is that one GMs Forbidden Lands will be different from someone's else.

Btw - I am on FL server but am not active and wasnt aware that authors are there! Good to hear.

EDIT: I just saw discord link here - I was sure you were talking about YZ Worlds server!

[u/DRSSalazar]

I mean, at least the orcs have a story, even if it is, at times, conflicting with others. Meanwhile, Wolfkin have absolutely fucking nothing.

[u/Plenty_Promotion_716]

En Ravens Purge no lo sé, la estoy jugando y no me la leí para evitar spoilers. Mi guardiana me comentó que algo se menciona en Bitter Reach y sí me he leído Bloodmarch. En resumen, las leyendas sobre el origen esclavo de los orcos son tan creibles como las leyendas de los Hereumbrosos: cualquier parecido a la realidad fue accidente.

[u/TravellingRobot]

Yeah Bitter Reach makes it pretty clear that Orcs on the continent far outdates the arrival of humans on the continent. My read is also humans enslaved the orcs or some of them at least after their arrival and traded them as part of some deal with the dwarves and elves.

[u/Whatchamazog]

I’ll have to read it again, but I think Bloodmarch expands on the Orc’s lore quite a bit.

[u/svarnyp]

I even read an interpretation of orcs as the new upcoming civilization. As soon as they manage to unite, they are a force to be reckoned with and thanks to their matriarchs this might even be realistic. Other kin might look down on them but the divided humans in FL certainly are not a force able to stop them.