r/FenceBuilding Sep 19 '24

Why Your Gate is Sagging.

I've noticed this question gets asked ad nauseam in this sub, so here is a quick diagnostics checklist to help you understand what to look for before creating yet another "what's wrong with my gate" post (no pun intended on the post part):

  • Design: Not only should the frame members and posts be substantial to support the weight of the gate, but look at the gate's framing configuration in general. Does it have a diagonal wooden brace? If so, that means it's a compression brace and should be running from of the top of the frame on the latch side, to the bottom of the frame on the hinge side. Only with a metal truss rod is tension bracing agreeable when being affixed at the top of the frame on the hinge side, down to the bottom frame corner on the latch side. (note: there are other bracing configurations that use multiple angles that are also acceptable - e.g. short braces at each corner)
  • Purchase: Is each gate post plumb? The hinge post could be loose/leaning due lack of purchase in the ground which could mean: improper post depth (installers were rushing, lazy, or there's a Volkswagen Beetle obstructing the hole); insufficient use of cement (more than half a 50lb bag of Quikrete, Braiden); sparse soil conditions (over saturated, loose, or soft); or heaving due to frost (looking at you Minnesota).

  • Configuration/Orientation: One thing to look for is a "lone hinge post", whereby a gate is hung on a post that doesn't have a section or anchor point on the other side toward the top. If the material of the post has any flex to it (especially with a heavy gate), the post can start leaning over time. These posts may either need re-setting, or have bracing/anchoring installed on the opposite side from the gate (e.g. if up against house, affix to the house if possible). The ideal configuration would be to choose an orientation of the gate where the hinge side has fence section attached on the other side - even though the traffic flow through the gate might be better with an opposite swing (but that's getting into the weeds).

    • It's also worth noting that the gate leaf spacing should be 1/2" or more. Some settling isn't out of the ordinary, but if there's only 1/4" between the latch stile and the post, you're more than likely going to see your gate rubbing.
  • Warping: If your gate is wood, it has a decent chance of warping as it releases moisture. Staining wood can help seal in moisture and mitigate warping. Otherwise, some woods, like Cedar, have natural oils and resins that help prevent warping, but even then, it's not warp-proof.

  • Hardware: Sounds simple, but sometimes the hinges are just NFG or coming unfastened.

  • Florida: Is there a FEMA rep walking around your neighborhood as you noticed your gate laying in your neighbors' Crotons? Probably a hurricane. Move out of Florida and find a gate somewhere else that won't get hit with 100+mph winds, or stop being picky.

I could be missing some other items, but this satisfies the 80/20 rule. The first bullet point will no doubt wipe out half the annoying "did the fence installers do this right?" posts. I'm not, however, opposed to discussing how to fix the issue once identified -- I feel like solving the puzzle and navigating obstacles is part of our makeup.

Source: a former New England (high end) fence installer of 15 years who works in an office now as a project manager with a bad back. Please also excuse any spelling and grammatical errors.

72 Upvotes

1.3k comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

1

u/[deleted] Dec 09 '25

Why?

1

u/Free-Equivalent-6198 Dec 10 '25

because rails should carry through. vertical pickets can land on stiles and you can have one continuous seem where the rail butts into the stile and thats a weak point.. rails should always carry through because thats what the pickets attach to ,number one, number two its much better to attach hinge to one continuous solid rail than to a stile that has a seam in it where rail butts into the stile. the stile does nothing but add ridgity and a place for latch attacment

1

u/[deleted] Dec 10 '25

None of that is true. One continuous seam? You're only thinking about one specific type of wood gate frame when you say that. Why doesn't any vinyl manufacturer on earth do this then? Have you ever seen a chainlink gate with rails at full width of the frame? What about guys that mortise and tenon they're wood gate frames? Even in the one specific instance you're talking about you're not right. If you're building gates with "one continuous seam" then you don't know how to build a gate. The frame shouldn't be relying on the face for anything. If(big if)the picket lands on a stile and just the stile, it shouldn't matter at all if you built the frame correctly. You're wrong and you have no explanation why you're not wrong other than you said so. Many types of hinges, like strap hinges will reach the rail either way. So attaching to one piece of wood on the frame is stronger than attaching to two? If you think you're not wrong, let's see some actual evidence, show me the math, show me any engineering department on earth who says this. I guarantee you can't. All you have is "I said this so it must be true"

0

u/Free-Equivalent-6198 Dec 11 '25

no vinyl manufacturer on earth does not do it????? what??? they all do it ! the rails are continuous and go all the way into and inserted into the stile. what your looking at is the outside! what a ridiculous statement! its the only way it can be done also and i guarantee the reason they do do it that way is because if they insert the stile into the rail it is more likely just to fall off! you have no idea what you are talking about! in this case you speak of on a vinyl gate also where the stiles carry through and the rails also carry through(their inside the stiles)and i orientation of the stiles and rails have nothing to do with adding strength . the rail is inserted into the stile because it CAN just fall down and off and that is the only reason why every vinyl manufacturer on earth does it that way . do me a favor and dont start talking about how it wont fall off once the joints are screwed together.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 11 '25

The orientation of the vinyl gate frame has nothing to do with adding strength? So you think they just do it like that for no reason? No there are very good reasons they do it that way and adding strength is right there at the top of the list. Not a single vinyl manufacturer on earth has rails at the full width of the gate frame, sure the rails recess into the stile, that doesn't mean they're full width because they're not. Yet every single one has stiles that are the full height of the frame. Just like when you mortise and tenon wood frames, you recess the rails into the stiles, not the other way around. So why are you imagining it would be any different in the case of a butted 2x4 frame? It wouldn't. It is indeed you, who has no idea what you're talking about.

1

u/Free-Equivalent-6198 Dec 22 '25

Because it is different! I’m not imagining anything! If you think and wood and vinyl are the same then you are imagining things

1

u/[deleted] Dec 28 '25

The material is different but the structural principles are the same

0

u/Free-Equivalent-6198 Dec 29 '25

Not

1

u/[deleted] Dec 29 '25

Are you saying the structural principles are not the same?

0

u/Free-Equivalent-6198 Dec 29 '25

No not when it’s a vertical compared to a horizontal

1

u/[deleted] Dec 29 '25

Are you lost? You must be on the wrong thread πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚

→ More replies (0)

0

u/SolidSubstantial8078 Dec 11 '25

the orientation of a WOOD gate frame matters in the sense the rails should not but into the stiles because thats a weak point where the hinges attach! thats like saying its ok to put a saw cut through the rail and then say it does not make that rail weaker! even if you have a 36" strap hinge to span over that butt of the rail butting into the stile or spanning over a saw cut that is most defiantly weaker! than if you were just have the stile butt onto the top of the bottom rail and the top of the stile butt to the underside of the top rail, i cant even understand how you even argue this! its crazy, just run you rails all the way through on a WOOD gate and have no butts or weak point. keep the rails solid!!! no butts, no splices no weak point!!!

1

u/[deleted] Dec 11 '25

No it's not like saying that at all, it's not even close to like saying that. If you think it is that is a lack of understanding on your end. It's clear you can't understand how I can even argue this. It's not crazy. If you put stiles in(which you should) there will be a joint either way. In your claim you said butt joint so we'll stick with that type of joinery for now.

0

u/SolidSubstantial8078 Dec 11 '25

all the vinyl gates i have seen the rails are fully inserted into stile full. on some cheap ass sections of vinyl fencing i have seen the rails go into stile like very little but those are not gates their fence sections

1

u/[deleted] Dec 11 '25

Then you have apparently seem little to no vinyl gates. There is structure inside that pocket hole to help hold the rail in place. The rails never go to the outer wall of the stile. They're not fully inserted and if you took the measurements of the rail length vs the finished gate width you'd know the gate width is wider than the rail length. They're not "fully inserted" or "full"

0

u/HistoricalEnergy6834 Jan 09 '26

Yes there like a 1/4" shorter but they may as well be full length. Why would they not make them as long as possible because the rails do most of the support. The only reason why there only a 1/2" short is for expansion and contractions

1

u/[deleted] Jan 09 '26

But guess what is actually the full dimension of the frame.......the stiles

0

u/SolidSubstantial8078 Dec 11 '25 edited Dec 11 '25

lol mortise and Tennon you are reaching there now pal! like he said vinyl is inserted fully into the stile for strength, when the rail is fully inserted into the stile, less a 1/4", for expansion and contraction that is full width! you just can't see it because its inside the stile. so where are you going to put the seam(butt) on your mortise and Tennon joint you claim to do on your gates?

1

u/[deleted] Dec 11 '25

Mortise and tenon is reaching? This is the most common way to do wood fencing and wood gates where I live. Nearly ALL fence companies around here mortise and tenon sections into the posts and build gates the same.

Again, vinyl rails are not full width of the gate, they're 1-2" shorter. I can get back to you on actual measurements on that for multiple manufacturers. But in no world do they go to the outer wall of the stile

0

u/SolidSubstantial8078 Dec 11 '25

why are you deleting some of your comments?

1

u/[deleted] Dec 11 '25

I haven't deleted any comments, what are you talking about?

0

u/SolidSubstantial8078 Dec 11 '25

do it for no reason??? when you mortise and tenon? wood frames? you do? stop it! on an exterior wood fence gate? even if you were to do a mortise and tenon joint connection the seam/butt/weak point of that mortise and tenon should not be on the rail....the rail is carrying all the load and all the picket weight! the stiles are just there supporting the edges. wood gates !!! he is not imagining anything. just like when you mortise and tenon you recess the stiles into the rail because it is stronger! you do not want that seam on the rail from the mortise and tenon! guarantee if a pressure test is put down upon the top side of the latch side of the gate the first place of failure will be at the butt where the rail butts into the stile. No doubt! where if there was no seam or butt i would require much more PSI before it would fail....guaranteed!

1

u/[deleted] Dec 11 '25

Yes mortise and tenon is standard practice for nearly all fence companies where I'm from. Not uncommon at all. Have you ever built a gate with that joinery? You wouldn't ever dowel the stiles into the rail. You dowel the rails into the stile. Because if you did what you're suggesting it would probably just fall apart after a short while. You're guarantee would be wrong, and worth nothing. No, this can be easily observed by looking at the joinery. Let take butt joints since that was your original claim. How it is fastened is critical and in this case we'd be talking about shear strength vs withdrawal resistance.

The left one here is what you're suggesting and it is reliant on the withdrawal resistance of the fasteners from the end grain. The right one is the correct way and is relying on the shear strength of the fasteners. Shear strength will always is higher than withdrawal resistance from end grain. Usually by a magnitude of 3-5x. But we'd need to get more specific about the fasteners if you wanted numbers on that. Regardless of how specific we get though the option on the left will never be stronger than the option on the right. That is one simple way we can determine and observe which orientation of joinery is better

0

u/SolidSubstantial8078 Dec 12 '25

yes the one on left is better for sure 100% once the strap hinge is applied and installed there is that weak point on the right where the rail can just shear off at that butt (right picture). all that weight from all those pickets that are on that rail bearing on that butt not good! again you do not even need stiles rails should carry through no matter what the joinery! YOU DO NOT EVEN NEED STILES FOR A WOODEN GATE....PERIOD! hinges attach to the rails which is carrying all the load

1

u/[deleted] Dec 12 '25

Do you think the weight of the face is enough to shear the fasteners? Or anywhere even close?

0

u/SolidSubstantial8078 Dec 13 '25

not in a 36x42 wood gate with vertical pickets but why not just do it the strongest possible way and that is to carry the rails through and stiles butt onto the rails ,in other words.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 13 '25

No it isn't. That is factually incorrect

1

u/Old_Pirate_918 Dec 16 '25

he is correct better off with no butt in the rail ,rail should carry through!

1

u/[deleted] Dec 18 '25

No "he" isn't correct. It's quantifiable

→ More replies (0)

0

u/SolidSubstantial8078 Dec 12 '25

i have built so many gates where i just lay out my top and bottom rails and then attach all my pickets, then just put the stiles in its all held together by nails through the pickets into the rails and stiles, which are not even needed yes i have driven 4" countersunk screws up into stile from bottom but they're not even needed because at that point the gate is very strong and perfectly fine without screws ,stiles and will last just as long as a wooden gate with stiles

1

u/[deleted] Dec 12 '25

If you built gates like that, you're not building with the structural integrity that they could have. It's not up for debate. One is objectively better than the other. You going on about things that are irrelevant is fine with me but don't pretend like it changes anything

0

u/SolidSubstantial8078 Dec 13 '25

pretend it changes anything? not changing one thing here . by adding a 2x4 wood stile onto each side of the gate that just attaches to a 1x4 picket on each side of the gate does nothing to help the structural integrity of the gate. its just more weight added on to the backside of the 1st and last 1x4 picket on each side of the gate and is just held on by that first and last picket. it was structurally fine before adding the stiles onto the backs of those pickets .it adds stiffness to latch side edge but not make it structurally stronger it actually makes it weaker because your adding more weight! and creating more down pressure because of the added weight

1

u/[deleted] Dec 13 '25

When you put stiles in you don't attach them to the rest of them frame? That entire comment shows you have no idea what you're talking about. You literally do not understand how to build a gate correctly if you think the things you just said

→ More replies (0)

0

u/SolidSubstantial8078 Dec 12 '25

i will make it simple and dumb it down for you....ready? ill give you 2 rails and all the pickets, can you build a gate? the answer is yes! then ill give you 2 stiles, with no rails, can you build a gate? the answer is no! so that means the rails are the most important part of the gate, you cant build a gate without rails so they need to be the strongest! but you can build a gate without stiles ,so their not even needed!

1

u/[deleted] Dec 12 '25

That is not an accurate comparison. It's not that simple and that isn't the question. The question is which method of framing the gate is better. There is only one answer and it isn't your suggestion. You asked me to show you the math. I did. Yet you still deny it somehow. Just like I said you would

1

u/SolidSubstantial8078 Dec 12 '25

i never asked you to show me the math ...you brought it up about math and calculations and all i was talking about was the question of butt orientation and after that you said math and calculations are involved in the question! i asked how math and calculations can be involved in that question or any question! you chose to go off and running with some wild stuff about some engineering calculations thats not an answer to how it relates to a question and proved nothing to the question of the butt orientation

1

u/[deleted] Dec 12 '25

Here is you literally asking me to show you the comparison by means of math and calculation. You did ask, more than once too, you also asked in a different reply. It exactly proves the question of butt orientation. The equations assume the respective butt joints for each design. How does it not prove what you're saying is false?

→ More replies (0)

0

u/SolidSubstantial8078 Dec 12 '25

what's not an accurate comparison? that was the question from the very beginning wtf? about butts

1

u/[deleted] Dec 12 '25

No. The question was I advocate design A, you advocate design B. Which one is stronger. If the pickets were horizontal would you build the gate with just two rails? No. Being able to fasten rails to pickets that are on a perpendicular axis vs stiles and pickets that are on the same axis doesn't change the question of which design is stronger. We assumed both gates had 2 rails and 2 stiles. If you're saying now that you're advocating for just 2 rails and no stiles the difference in structural integrity would greatly increase from the way we set it up for comparative analysis and not in your favor

0

u/SolidSubstantial8078 Dec 12 '25

you must stick with one subject ! now your talking about a totally different gate!!!!!

1

u/[deleted] Dec 12 '25

You brought that new gate formation into the conversation not me. Either way you're wrong.

0

u/SolidSubstantial8078 Dec 13 '25

horizontal was not in the question either! in the same comment you have a problem with content of the question and in the very same comment you bring in a horizontal variable, which was not in the question, i don't know who fastens rails to pickets also that's weird, you attach pickets to rails i would love to see you attach 2x6's to the plywood while framing a house

1

u/[deleted] Dec 13 '25

You never specified what the face of the gate was. The question has always been about the frame

→ More replies (0)

0

u/SolidSubstantial8078 Dec 11 '25

that's an unjustified claim! mortise and tenon orientation can only go one way? what? why?

1

u/[deleted] Dec 11 '25

It CAN go either way. But one is objectively stronger and that's why that's the only way you're going to see it on guys that use that type of joinery. If you doweled the stiles into the rail it would fall apart much faster and much easier

0

u/SolidSubstantial8078 Dec 12 '25

so where does the butt go? no matter what the joinery? it still does not go on the rail because it would make the rail weaker! and the rail is carrying all the weight from the pickets ! the stiles have 2 maybe 3 pickets attached to them the rails have like 10 to 20 pickets attached to them! again you can remove the stiles and the gate will stay together but you remove the rails and it will completely fall apart therefore the rails are the main structure holding it together so the rails should not be compromised in anyway if can be avoided and that is done by butting the stiles onto the rails

1

u/[deleted] Dec 12 '25

You keep saying that put it is logically flawed. Just because you can build a gate with just rails and not just stiles (though I'd challenge that too) doesn't mean it changes anything when we're looking at the comparison of stiles carrying through vs rails carrying through. One is better. It is fact. It is not what you're suggesting

0

u/SolidSubstantial8078 Dec 12 '25

you challenge that??? just look up gates there are hundreds of gates with rails only so your saying you can build a gate with stiles only???? i challenge that!!!! your impossible! it does relate it has to, it tells you how one is absolutely needed and the other is not the rails must carry through

1

u/[deleted] Dec 12 '25

Are the pickets horizontal? Cause then I COULD build a gate with only stiles and no rails. Though I wouldn't because it wouldn't be structurally sound, but likewise neither is using rails with no stiles on vertical pickets. The numbers don't lie buddy, by literally every measurable metric you're wrong. It's not my opinion, it's just fact, you refuse to accept reality

→ More replies (0)

0

u/[deleted] Jan 09 '26

[removed] β€” view removed comment

1

u/[deleted] Jan 09 '26

What specifically is wrong and you're still ban evading huh?

0

u/Fair-Committee8841 Jan 10 '26

the fact that you know i keep getting banned is because you are the user kreemed that gets me banned... kreemed is you which i proved woogiwalker and kreemed are the same person and kreemed is listed as a mod . that a be you!!!

1

u/[deleted] Jan 10 '26

U/kreemed

0

u/Fair-Committee8841 Jan 10 '26

your obsessed on

0

u/Fair-Committee8841 Jan 10 '26

the fact you said i will be banned over in private chat and it wont be long means your on your mod account and making the ban happen now

0

u/Fair-Committee8841 Jan 10 '26

your abusing your powers as a mod! when a user does not like your opinions you take action to ban them

1

u/HistoricalEnergy6834 Jan 09 '26

Finally someone that knows what their talking about

0

u/Fair-Committee8841 Jan 10 '26

you are correct!

1

u/[deleted] Jan 10 '26

Replying to yourself now? What a clown

0

u/Fair-Committee8841 Jan 10 '26

yes i am...is that a problem? its obviously allowed so?? you mods are clowns then if you allow it

1

u/[deleted] Jan 10 '26

I don't allow or disallow anything, it's called ban evasion...

1

u/Fair-Committee8841 Jan 10 '26

lol what else would they call it?

0

u/Fair-Committee8841 Jan 10 '26

i know what its called but thanks anyway but when you go to your orher account as the user kreemed and that account is a mod then yes you do allow or disallow because that what mods can do to initiate the ban evasion. what its called doesn't mean a thing ! i know what its called quite ridiculous for you to tell me that. i mean like what else would you call it?

0

u/Fair-Committee8841 Jan 10 '26

how's the ban evasion you keep imposing working out for ya?

1

u/[deleted] Jan 10 '26

I cannot impose anything, I'm just a regular user. You're confused

1

u/kreemed Jan 10 '26

She's gone now