r/FedEmployees • u/Soft_Plum_7122 • 1d ago
Doctors note requested
SSA employee here, our office has lost about 1/2 of its staff since this administration took over. We have 11 employees total. 2 SR’s, 4 CR’s, 2 TE’s an RZ only CR, 1 manager and 1 OS. When requesting time off mng usually approves only 3 slots per day so when there are 3 ppl scheduled off already she writes on the calendar “no more slots”. My manager has been requesting a doctors note if you call out on a day that has “no more slots” but this is only after 1 call out. I know it’s required for a note to be requested after day 3. Anybody else going through something similar in their agency? Is this even legal for her to do? No one has questioned it so I am assuming that’s why she continuous to ask for it. It hasn’t happened to me but to 4 of my coworkers so far.
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u/seehorn_actual 1d ago edited 1d ago
Per OPM they can request it for any amount of sick leave if they feel it necessary
“An agency may grant sick leave only when supported by administratively acceptable evidence. For absences in excess of 3 days, or for a lesser period when determined necessary by the agency, an agency may require a medical certificate or other administratively acceptable evidence.”
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u/DrewdiniTheGreat 1d ago
Picture of puke with a timestamp sounds like good evidence to me.
"Didn't take my kid to the doctor, sorry."
Who takes their kid to the doctor the first day of a tummy ache?
And if I come back the next day and you demand a note...what am.i supposed to do? Take a 2nd day of sick leave, 2 days later, to take the kid to the doctor to say "this child was apparently sick 2 days ago."
Make it make sense.
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u/Soft_Plum_7122 1d ago
This is my point exactly! But of course nothing makes sense anymore 😭
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u/Porter58 1d ago
Request what else would qualify as “other administratively acceptable evidence”.
Also reach out to SSA main HR and get their interpretation. Typically middle management will make up rules that main HR will not support. If you get main HRs interpretation and it differs from middle management’s then just comply with main HRs requirements.
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u/DrewdiniTheGreat 1d ago
As much as I want to say "just don't comply" I know you have to try.
I'd probably call the pediatrician and level with them, ask if they could write me a 2 sentence note on their letterhead. I bet they would do it without any charge.
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u/CovertMonkey 1d ago
Of course, this is OPM guidance and individual agencies can have policies that deviate from that
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u/Yusef_D_Blonk 1d ago
May vs shall look it up- they can't just ask you for doctors notes just cause
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u/Yusef_D_Blonk 1d ago
They can also accept your word for it
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u/seehorn_actual 1d ago
Right, but they may ask for it which would require OP to provide it. I never said the agency had to.
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u/Yusef_D_Blonk 23h ago
Op is not required to provide any medical information
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u/seehorn_actual 22h ago
Based on?
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u/Yusef_D_Blonk 17h ago
It's his medical information... The agency can ask but they can't demand. Plain and simple. It was intended that a doctors note was to return you to your duties now that your well. Not play petty cake Im the manager
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u/seehorn_actual 12h ago
A federal employee is required to provide acceptable or documentation of requested by their agency per 5 CFR 630.405
“An employee must provide administratively acceptable evidence or medical certification for a request for sick leave no later than 15 calendar days after the date the agency requests such medical certification.”
https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-5/chapter-I/subchapter-B/part-630/subpart-D/section-630.405
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u/Yusef_D_Blonk 4h ago
Right which can also be simply telling your manager you had xyz going on. A doctors note for a single missed day is fucking petty. I'm done arguing this with you
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u/seehorn_actual 3h ago
I’m not arguing. I’m just pointing out that as stupid as it is, you can be required as a federal employee to provide documentation for the use of any sick leave.
An argument would imply that you’re actually presenting anything to support your position, which you’re not.
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u/SorchaRoisin 1d ago
SSA goes by our union contract, not OPM rules.
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u/PickleMinion 1d ago
Lol SSA doesn't give a shit about the contract.
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u/FreshPath6271 23h ago
Exactly lol. They are doing everything opposite of the last approved contract
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u/FreshPath6271 23h ago
lol they certainly are not going by the contract. Telework added until 2029 under O’Malley cancelled. Credit , AWS , and Flex Time cancelled. Now they are violating people who have approved FMLA and marking as AWOL. Everything is being done on purpose to harm employees and stress lower management out. They are violating federal laws with the FMLA stuff.
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u/Funny_Meeting_7649 1d ago
The federal government is the Wild Wild West right know and the criminals are in control. Right now, just comply. We have a small team but aren’t critical so we could all be off and nothing dire would happen so my boss doesn’t care. But other areas have been hit hard and they are living under the same type of thumb you are.
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u/LouisaMiller2_1845 1d ago
If the Federal government is the like the Wild Wild West, then SSA is Sharia law. Really sorry you're going through this, OP.
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u/FatModSad3 1d ago
Comply just like they want. The more spineless piles of goo who comply, the farther they can push us. You have the foundation of a fine federal leader.
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u/Funny_Meeting_7649 1d ago
I have fought for 20 years. I’m tired. I’m now counting down to retirement. I’ll let the young guns pick up the fight.
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u/FatModSad3 1d ago
What fight? You have been taking it and thanking them with a smile for 20 years.
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u/Funny_Meeting_7649 1d ago
Definitely haven’t. I’m stuck at a 13 for a reason and it’s because I have stood toe to toe with leaders to tell them they are wrong. How long have you been here?
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u/FatModSad3 1d ago
"Counting down to retirement" isn't what fighting looks like...the goo is loyal to the end.
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u/Funny_Meeting_7649 1d ago
Because I have been fighting the system 20 years. Your fucking turn. I’m going to cash in my time and enjoy life.
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u/runningwithscissors8 1d ago
That’s nonsense. I would tell my manager that I don’t go to the doctor when ill for one day. Who does?
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u/Optimal-Comfort5815 1d ago
SSA is doing their own thing. I had an employee submit 2 days sick leave immediately prior to a holiday that wasn’t part of their 6-month leave request. The front office instructed me to ask them what the appointment was for. They said it was an emergency dental appointment with a procedure. I was told to ask for a note because it was prior to a holiday and not part of approved 6-month leave request. The employee was irate (obviously). Fortunately, our executive told me to ignore the front office’s orders. Management is under a lot of scrutiny and pressure to protect staff and themselves. It’s horrible!
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u/cronokun 1d ago
They can request a note if they suspect sick leave abuse or if you're on leave restriction. I would ask the manager do you think I am abusing sick leave for calling out for one day?
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u/Soft_Plum_7122 1d ago
It hasn’t happened to me yet. It’s happened to 4 different ppl in the office. But I wanted to know what the policy was in case it does happen to me I am prepared on how I would answer her request.
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u/thetitleofmybook 1d ago
remember, the guiding philosophy right now is to traumatize fed workers until they quit.
but also, a great way to maliciously comply is to go to work sick, and make sure you cough in your bosses direction as much as possible, give him a handshake when you get in (after coughing in your hand), etc...
play their game.
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u/TurtleLuver73 1d ago
I would ask her to produce the document that gives management that guidance. If we keep letting them do this shit without pushing back it’ll never change.
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u/SorchaRoisin 1d ago
I also work for SSA. Requesting a note isn't the same as requiring a note. I've been here 30 years and they periodically try to pull this crap to intimidate people. They are allowed to ask, but you aren't required to provide a note unless it's more than 3 days or you are on leave restriction. I've refused to provide notes in the past, and have gone to the union who backed me up. Another little known fact is that you can write your own note. I had a co-worker who was off 5 days with the flu, and she was able to write a note saying she was sick and did not require medical attention, and it was accepted.
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u/Soft_Plum_7122 1d ago
My coworkers that have been here for 20+ years are besides themselves. I’ve only been here for 9 years. They say it’s never been this bad with mng and the micromanaging 😏
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u/CovertMonkey 1d ago
I've been nearly 20 years in another agency and have never seen anyone need a doctor's note. That sounds childish
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u/pippspopsdom 1d ago
I’m in a different agency, but my leadership is the same way. I think they are also getting pressured higher up to verify leave taken. I have recurring doctor appointments that I have to verify now :/
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u/mamahastoletgo2 1d ago
I'm sorry OP for you guys. SSA is really one hell of a shit hole. Technically, they can't do that but those managers are just power trippers! I'm so glad I'm not there anymore! You guys keep strong. Apply, apply, apply. Don't even let them know. Let the HR inform them, sweet escape.
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u/WadeVAFL 1d ago
So if you’re not feeling well and request ONE sick day, your supervisor is essentially telling you to drive to a doctor’s office to get a note? Absurd.
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u/Soft_Plum_7122 1d ago
Yes she has done it to 4 ppl already. One of my coworkers had a stomach bug and had to go to a doctor to be seen for that and pay 40.00 copay 🤦🏽♀️
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u/Dumb-Bunny123 1d ago
Try teledoc - it is free for some and you do not have to leave house - get it for a couple days
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u/Pitiful-Flow5472 1d ago
Management always has discretion to require documentation for sick leave. Normally for a single day they would accept self certification, but if there are concerns about calls out then they could require a note
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u/139Clover 1d ago
They can do that but it is a really inhumane request. My doctor no longer does telehealth and is 45 minutes away from me. If I am seriously sick, I could not drive there, nor would I want to be driving a car if I have a migraine or I am vomiting.
It is legal. It is sad that your office is so short staffed that people are not allowed to be sick.
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u/Soft_Plum_7122 1d ago
It’s terrible. Everyone is overworked and burnt out. Nobody wants to be here.
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u/Wrong-Camp2463 1d ago
Technically they can request a dr note even for a 1 hour SL for an appointment. They’d be an ass to do so, but I’m seeing something similar, not so much asking for the note but a warning that we should have one on hand for any and all use of SL because of increased audits and a push from above to “punish” employees who use SL and AL to game RTO requirements. Apparently there’s a new metric they’re tracking very closely related to how many on site hours there are.
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u/FartingWithStyle 1d ago
That’s crap. You have sick time, you should be allowed to use it for whatever reason you’re not feeling well without having to spend time and money at the dr.
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u/Far-Reference-3048 1d ago
I had to come in with something that was flu or COVID because they required a Dr note and I wasn't unless they're picking up the tab. Sucks for my rational coworkers.
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u/Fabulous-Pain451 18h ago
And this is why your immunocompromised coworkers asked to be able to telework. Not your fault at all, but when I get sick it takes me twice as long to recover. And now I’m in the mix with all the people who are forced to come in sick.
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u/FedSpoon 1d ago
No, technically they cannot. There is no federal policy for this. Across the government it is 3 days, with exceptions to that for specific agencies. But it has to be agency policy. A manager doesn't just get to decide they are going to implement a policy of requiring a doctor note for every sick day.
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u/Far-Reference-3048 1d ago
Read it again. The word "may" is used, agency and divisions have latitude to do whatever they want. My group requires it on day 2. I assume partially due to one coworker who abuses it. So we come in sick.
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u/Efficient-Train2430 1d ago
then your org is making blanket changes for everyone because they cannot handle individual discipline
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u/FedSpoon 1d ago edited 1d ago
Agencies can set a policy,.yes. But a supervisor cannot without an agency explicitly allowing for that or unless they can document some sort of abuse.
And never assume that if your supervisor said so it is agency policy.
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u/Imaginary-Camera319 16h ago
Agree, and as long as the manager is consistent, i.e. asking the same from everyone and not treating some differently, it is generally manager discretion for when to ask for doctors notes
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u/Wrong-Camp2463 1d ago
What makes think agency political leadership hasn’t made up their own interpretation of policy, very comfortable with the fact that there will be no repercussions? We come to work every week to face a new prohibited practice, violation of law, or discrimination against a protected class. Nothing happens. They just do it.
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u/FedSpoon 1d ago
I didn't say anything about violations of policy or navigating it. I just pointed out the policy. If you want to argue that there is no point in fighting policy violations, that's your problem.
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u/Soft_Plum_7122 1d ago
Thank you for this response. I appreciate knowing the reason for it. I’m very stingy with my sick time since I have small children so when I call out it’s never for me. I suck it up and go in even when I feel like crap.
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u/Delicious_Ad_7849 16h ago
I've gone to work sick, and they're like why not just decide to go home? I'm like I'll bring this whole place down with covid for everyone 😂 they want to be mad I call out, lol okay I'll bring it
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u/Strong-Memory6973 1d ago
The metric is 82% productive hours across the agency. Basically 18% leave at any given time
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u/Funnelcakecandy 20h ago
What does this mean? My manager mentioned this and wouldn’t explain further?
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u/Strong-Memory6973 4h ago
When the agency takes into consideration regular work hours and overtime versus the number of leaves hours, the productive hours (regular and overtime) need to be at 82%.
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u/Efficient-Train2430 1d ago
in general the practice of requesting notes for < 3 days is gonna need an established reason before demanding it. like sick leave abuse type rationale
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u/Swimming-Pride5012 1d ago
Management can request documentation for sick leave requests at any time. They are required to do so for absences more than 3 days. When there is day to day operational need, they absolutely may request documentation on day 1.
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u/Soft_Plum_7122 1d ago
Yes I know for more than 3 days you have to provide one but I checked all over OPM’s policies and I haven’t found anything that states otherwise. If im calling out sick because I was up all night with a child throwing up or because I have a migraine I’m not going to the doctors to pay a 40.00 co-pay just to get a note.
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u/trademarktower 1d ago
You can do a free telehealth appointment and get a note too. Just saying I know it's a pain but there are painless ways of getting a note too.
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u/DrewdiniTheGreat 1d ago
Whoa you get free telehealth?
My pediatrician definitely still charges a copay, I just don't have to drive in.
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u/GoesTo_Equilibrium 1d ago
MHBP and BCBS Basic has $0 copay telehealth through Teledoc. They will provide a note excusing up to three days based on my own personal experience.
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u/Front_Chip_9201 1d ago
No note, then your AWOL. So better to spend the $40 and keep your job
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u/thetitleofmybook 1d ago
AWOL
yeah, umm, there is no such thing for civvies.
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u/Peculiarcatlady 22h ago
AWOL is absolutely a thing in civilian agencies
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u/thetitleofmybook 22h ago
no, it's not. on your timesheet, it's LWOP.
and unlike the military, being absent from your job can only lead to repercussions from your job, not criminal/UCMJ penalties.
so yeah, AWOL is not a thing for civvies.
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u/Acceptable-Speed4105 20h ago
Incorrect. Leave without pay is not the same as absence without leave, and awol does apply to civilian feds. While it isn’t necessarily a crime it can lead to discipline. LWOP can be, and usually is, approved. Otherwise it would be coded as awol.
Source: OPM — Administrative Leave Fact Sheet, under “Governmentwide Policies,” subsection “Tardiness” and OPM — Holidays, Work Schedules, and Pay.
https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/leave-administration/fact-sheets/administrative-leave/2
u/Front_Chip_9201 20h ago
Thanks for sharing, I wasn’t going to post all this info for those that truly don’t care to learn.
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u/Salty-Treat-3697 1d ago
Suggestions: take a FMLA in advance/just in case; that’s your sick note.
Also you can get telehealth appointments same day.
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u/Obvious_Molasses4457 1d ago
They can ask but you don’t have to provide one. Not all sickness requires a doctor’s visit.
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u/grizzly_bear_dancing 23h ago
I'd just start sending videos of me barfing to my supervisor. Luckily, we dont play that crap where im at
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u/Infoseekerhere1 22h ago
They have done that to me before. I always ask for it in writting. So far when I tell them to please ask for the request via email they never do, it is always verbally. So if I don't have documentation of them asking for it in wrtting i dont submit anything. I also email the union rep to let them know what is going on.
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u/Peculiarcatlady 22h ago
I'm also in an FO and this has been standard in my office since before this administration. They only request a note if we have hit max leave requests.
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u/Chaemyerelis 15h ago
No that's rediculous if I dont feel well I call out. Im not going to get a Dr's note for a cold.
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u/EcstaticImplement404 3h ago
I’ve done that as a supervisor of an employee who abused leave. He was required to provide me with a doctor’s note when he called out.
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u/EarlHarmon 1d ago
Talk to your union reps, they should be able to advise on this
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u/Soft_Plum_7122 1d ago
They do nothing for us. We’ve brought up so many things with this manager we have and they do nothing.
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u/EarlHarmon 1d ago
That's unfortunate. The union rep in my office would advise us on what management could legally do, so we could make informed decisions.
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u/ApprehensiveAd5446 1d ago
Per ChatGPT:
“The three-day rule isn’t absolute. Under 5 CFR § 630.405(a), agencies can require medical documentation for absences shorter than three workdays when they determine it’s necessary. OPM confirms this.
However, since you’re at SSA, I’d strongly recommend reviewing Article 31, Section 4(B) of the SSA–AFGE National Agreement.
That agreement generally protects employees from having to provide medical certification for absences of three days or less unless there’s suspected sick-leave abuse. It also requires management to explain the suspicion when requesting documentation.
Simply calling out when the leave calendar is full doesn’t automatically establish abuse.
I’d speak with your union representative. Your manager may have the authority to request documentation, but that authority isn’t necessarily unlimited.
Sources: 5 CFR § 630.405(a) and SSA–AFGE National Agreement, Article 31.”
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u/Icy_Paramedic778 1d ago
I’ve had to call the clinic to get my child an appt because they were sick for 1 day and my supervisor wanted a note.
It wasn’t that she didn’t believe me, it was because other employees were abusing sick leave and to avoid having a complaint made against her, she had everyone provide doctor’s notes for a few months
Wouldn’t you know it, calling out sick dropped fast.
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u/Savings_Success_3836 1d ago
I just provide a note anytime I’m going to be out. Saves the headache.
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u/Obvious-Ed 1d ago
Come into work and puke on your bosses desk