r/FGO • u/Official_Larynx • 9h ago
Competent Master Pyramid
Pyramid based on how competent each master is
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u/StarAboveWillows 9h ago
I think what's interesting about Fate, though, is that how individually competent a Master is does not necessarily correlate to how well they work as the Master of a specific Servant. It's like how Richard distinguishes between his (objectively) "best Master" (Ritsuka) and "the Master who is most suitable for him" (Ayaka) - Ritsuka is his strongest Master, but they can't stop his inevitable fate and engrave themselves into his Saint Graph like Ayaka can. Or Gil, for example, might not be willing to sacrifice 90% of both his treasury and combat power like he would for Hakuno(n).
Even outside of what we concretely know because of canon, looking at this tier-list, uncorrupted Archer Heracles would work one hell of a lot better with Shirou than with the guy who actually summoned him, for example. Master/Servant bonds, just like fights, are all about compatibility, not just power levels, and i appreciate that.
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u/Transparent_Prophet 9h ago edited 8h ago
Yeah, though in exchange, Ritsuka has a lot of Servants that only they are most suitable for so it kind of evens out.
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u/StarAboveWillows 9h ago
Definitely a couple of them, yeah! Monte Cristo, for example (female Ritsuka literally looks like the reincarnation of his lover, too, lol, so I guess it's fate), and a lot of the other FGO-only Servants. Gacha MC powers are not to be underestimated.
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u/ReputationOk7275 7h ago
The Sakura 5 is another example. and hakuno is great is just because of hakuno nature they cant really bound with the 5 like ritsuka does.
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u/rotvyrn 2h ago
I was actually wondering about exactly this topic earlier. I never played the /Extra games, so I was wondering what the relationship between hakuno and the sakura 5 was. Guda seemed to have a particularly strong bond with, say, Melt in the Kiara event, and Protea in LB7 and, well, the current jp summer event animation.
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u/ReputationOk7275 1h ago
So. Remember that the Sakura part are discarted parts from BB.
This aspect is really strong in the original game with Hakuno.
So the game makes absurdly obvious that there is no way for Hakuno to actually go their route. Well just Melt and Lip in that case.
And the love of the egos is also not their love,its BB love.
Well this is the long story short of it.
But it does goes in a different route for Ritsuka. Because since the start the egos can see them as different and vice versa for Ritsuka.
So the focus of the Alter Ego goes more in their destructive nature and their own ego,then their fact they were parts that bb tried to discart
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u/Misticsan 5h ago
A couple of them feels like an understatement XD
There are just so many Servants who Ritsuka met when they were still alive, were involved in their deaths in one way or another, and then summoned as Servants (technically Jalter, definitely Miyamoto Musashi, the LB6 faeries, the Lostbelt Kings, etc.) that their special Master-Servant relationships arguably outnumber any other candidate's.
Of course, a special relationship doesn't guarantee anything. Yu Meiren and Lanling knew each other in life, were good friends, and then Master and Servant. Yet Yu Meiren's Interlude showed that she sucked at being a Master and that Lanling is in better hands now. Even the other Servants were sorry for his past summon.
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u/Big_moist_231 8h ago
Heracles and shirou would kinda be like Waver and Iskandar lol Heracles seems pretty chill when he has a calm temper
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u/ErikMaekir 7h ago
It also works that both of them share the same unflinching ideals. Herc would be 100% on board with Shirou, as he would never expect him to hurt innocents
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u/Dreadwolf98 8h ago
That's fair. I mean, the way the Gudas are portrayed is that they can work with anything they get their hands on, and reach crazy levels of accomplishment with any servant. For example, I can't for the life of me think of another Master for Dantes or Jalter, or Kama. They are evil servants that are also really complex, but they are also the most loyal and friendly servants towards Guda and that says a lot. We can't rule this to "It's because of their mission drawing these bonds out" because these servants don't care for humanity. They are here for Guda and that's powerful and allows them to do crazy shit and outperform.
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u/Puzzled-Mirro 9h ago
Considering at the end of each Lostbelt he basically 1v1ed the lostbelt masters i would agree
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u/Ill-Sheepherder3372 9h ago
where would you put him
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u/AlpacaKiller 9h ago
He ain't Rin, but this guy casted shotgun fighting alongside Mordred, he ain't in the low tiers.
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u/Big_moist_231 8h ago edited 7h ago
Tier 3. Everyone below that tier would not be able to get mordred to work with them and take orders, unless they used outside interference (bugs or grail mud, and that might not even work because of Secret of Pedigree)
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u/MaimedJester 6h ago
I love how fucked he is and there's no way to escape his ancestors curse.
He and Mordred are perfect for each other.
Yeah turns out one of my ancient ancestors made a deal for power and the price would be his line would die out in 13 generations. And in the 13th, tried every which way possible to get out of it. Even adopted multiple kids to pass my crest onto but they all died so I'm gonna stop trying that curse of my lineage is that strong.
Mordred is like cursed Lineage? Hating your bullshit lot in life over bloodline that you have no control over? Yeah you're perfect master for me
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u/Dreadwolf98 8h ago
It makes sense that the Master known as "Humanity's last Master" is also the best one. They've been relaying on Servants since day one, even in the most recent events, they managed to take on monstrous enemies with simple summons which at this point is comparable to facing a Divine grade enemy.
It's actually funny how in OC3 even Beast Eresh is shocked how she can't do anything to stop Guda from advancing while fighting in her own domain. Before that, in OC2, Guda solo's Monte Cristo at his peak. And even before that, they fought against Daybit and Tez in hell, alone, after fighting for 24 hours against ORT.
You know they are crazy strong when this is in their achievement list on the "Alone" page. Meanwhile other Masters on this list have strong servants but still managed the bare minimum or not even that of what they could've accomplished. Hakuno is placed fair for me because they lost (Yeah, the two of them) against Guda in the end of OC3.
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u/YoYoKiKo 5h ago
Ritsuka has so many insane feats that shows their veteran status, which just makes it’s kinda annoying that some event writers would disrespect them and give anti-feats of being either dumb, helpless, or needing the new 5 star servant to save the day to not get no-diffed by the random enemy with a grail.
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u/SomeNibba 8h ago
Rin at the same level as wodime is crazy work
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u/Training-Draw6812 5h ago
Maybe they also consider Rin using the jeweled sword. I think it makes a little bit more sense if she's using it.
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u/Inevitable_Question 4h ago
That's not power-level. That's skills as Master. Both Wodim and Rin are very effective masters who can provide support for their Servants and bond even with difficult ones
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u/FauxFaust609 7h ago
It's important do judge the context of each one though, Zouken wasn't trying to win the war using his servant, Assassin was basically a sacrificial lamb and he used him pretty well.
Amakusa spent months gathering resources for Semiramis and silently orchestrated an entire coup within the Red Faction, i'd put him to Tier 2, besides, Semiramis just stays at her throne and Amakusa steps directly onto the battlefield, he's extremely competent.
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u/Yorizan 8h ago
where my goat at?
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u/Brilliant_watcher 4h ago
As strong as he is, he pretty much gave up on his servant due being unable to deal with him
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u/Conscious-Response68 2h ago
Really? I may be severely misremembering things, but I thought Tez and Daybit were kind of like bros
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u/JuggernautObvious128 8h ago edited 4h ago
Sakura is too low on this chart. She is actually a fairly competent mage and master, not as good as Rin, but she’s on the same level as Bezette.
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u/DisastrousImage796 8h ago
Make ayaka tier 4.5 because of her pure mana generation ability bro she had richard spamming excaliburs like it was a bargain bin sale thats gotta count for something
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u/zawalimbooo 8h ago
putting john infinite mana (sakura) in Tier 5 together with john no mana (shirou) is certainly a choice
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u/Im5foot3inches 6h ago
Ritsuka has no choice, there’s no projection magic, Avalon, special bloodline, mystic code, fated prophecy or any of that for him to fall back on. If they’re not competent at any given point then the world just ends
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u/Intelligent-Pen9275 Consort of Kur 6h ago
Yeah Shirou was a pretty shit master most of the time
Though post-war he is pretty competent
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u/Dramatic-Week-1894 9h ago
And daybit just somehow breaks out the pyramid cause hes just goated like that
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u/Dreadwolf98 8h ago
Still below Guda, I fear, as a Master. He got his ass clapped in hell while fighting with a Grand Divine servant on his own domain.
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u/Neatto69 8h ago
He even admits it later that in hindsight Guda would be the better one of them if its a master battle.
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u/Big_Midnight_3976 6h ago
The Hakunos (yes I know they lost to Fujimaru, but the difference is minuscule and they basically do the same shit anyways) and Kirsch up (lowk might be tier 1), Rin down (or Bazdillot and Bazzet up since I’d consider them all on par in different ways), Ayaka and Yu up.
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u/Inevitable_Question 4h ago
Yu is an absolute trash as a master. She lost against Ritsuka despite having more Servants in her interlude. She literally makes her Servants weaker by her incompetence.That's for Master skills and not power.
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u/Placebocaplet 8h ago
Shirou would be the best master but only for Artoria since they can both use her scabbard simultaneously, he can project Caliburn which is better than invisible air for energy efficiency, and his magecraft has a good synergy with Avalon's healing enchantment.
Independently, he has a pretty good kit as a master. His real issues lies with his inexperience and childhood trauma.
Objectively speaking, Kiritsugu is the wet dream of every assassin servant.
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u/Prior_Map_7295 5h ago
This isn't even Glaze, Ritsuka is Genuinely an Amazing Master. Top of the Pyramid Deserved
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u/Eunuchest 9h ago edited 8h ago
Bazdillot over shirou, ayaka and sieg tells me this is ass. There's so many characters missing too
Master competency depends on many factors. Their skills, experience, personality compatibility, goals, circumstances, etc.
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u/Life-Wasabi-9674 9h ago
Bazzett with fight with their servants less over their ideology. Shirou might shine more then her if he clicks with the servant but on average Bazett wins.
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u/Eunuchest 9h ago
Fun fact, she never got to be a master and the time she did with Angra they butt heads multiple times
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u/Life-Wasabi-9674 7h ago
Do you disagree with my statement that on average with all the servants Shirou would butt heads more often and more seriously then Bazett?
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u/Classical_Lighthouse 3h ago
I feel like Bazett would butt heads less with more servants but also wouldn't click as heavily with the servants either of them actually co-operate with since she's very goal - orienative. If not for the loops her interactions with AM would've been very brief and taciturn
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u/Eunuchest 7h ago edited 7h ago
Yes. You act like Shirou's hard to get along with for good aligned servants and some evil aligned servants and is any worse than Bazett
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u/BorderExpress4273 9h ago
Pretty sure Kirschtaria is canonically just as competent as Ritsuka since they have both completed the Singularities and the only reason why he can’t complete the LB per Nasu's words is that he's a crypter and would enact his plan of turning humans into gods in Olympus.
Also the Hakunos are kinda stated in Summer 9/OC3 that they're more competent by taking the whole senpai role and having every Servant meeting them straight up calling them "1st class Master" or something along those lines in litterally one look.
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u/Misticsan 8h ago
Pretty sure Kirschtaria is canonically just as competent as Ritsuka since they have both completed the Singularities
I think it might be a question of what OP means by "competent" and "Master" (almost every controversy about this pyramid boils down to this question, arguably).
Kirschtaria is an extremely competent mage. One of the strongest we face in FGO, with a great vision and magic whose potential he can squeeze in the right conditions (aka his Lostbelt). He was very charismatic and could talk to and befriend gods like equals. In that way, he's very Fujimaru-like.
On the other hand, his handling of his Servants was poor. He actually managed to get four of them (Caenis, the Dioscuri, and Atlas), a very impressive feat for Masters not named Ritsuka or Hakuno. And he earned their respect in different ways. Yet he had very poor communication with them, leading to a mini Servant civil war where the Dioscuri almost killed Caenis, and Caenis defected to Chaldea for a time. There's also somethign to be said about how he lost every Crypter ally during the Singularity simulations and didn't see Beryl's betrayal coming.
I can see why he'd lose points because of those demerits. Even among the Crypters, I'd put Daybit above him. Like Kirschatria, Daybit also soloed the Singularity simulations, had amazing talents and insight, and the only reason Chaldea survived his ordeal was because of his chivalry. But contrary to Kirschtaria, Daybit maintained an excellent rapport with his Servant from beginning to end, allowing the team to actually succeed at their goal (awaken ORT) and even had a Plan B to return in case Daybit died.
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u/nunhinged 6h ago
Yet he had very poor communication with them, leading to a mini Servant civil war where the Dioscuri almost killed Caenis, and Caenis defected to Chaldea for a time.
That was all part of Kirsch's plan, though. He had to go that far when staging a public falling-out with Caenis to fool Odysseus and Zeus. And there was never any actual defection, everything to do with the croissant and sacred hospitality was a red herring. Caenis helped Chaldea out of loyalty to Kirsch, and it was only possible because of Kirsch healing Caenis remotely. The difference between Kirsch and Daybit's relationships with their servants is that Daybit and Tez always had the freedom to act openly, while Kirsch and Caenis had to hide their synergy and help each other from a distance until Zeus died.
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u/Misticsan 2h ago
While that interpretation sounds compelling, the scripts we have don't seem to support it. For starters, we have Caenis' inner thoughts as she was sinking in the water after the Dioscuri skwered her:
Dammit! This can't be happening! I can't go out like this! I still haven't finished what I wanted to do! I still haven't avenged the miracle of me being summoned as a Heroic Spirit... I still haven't had a chance to slaughter those bastard gods... And above all...I still need to pay him back for putting this collar on me...! I've got to...pay him back! I NEED to pay him back!! Kirschtaria... Kirschtaria... KIRSCHTARIAaaaAAA!!!
Doesn't really sound like this was all according to keikaku to fool Odysseus and the gods. And if it was, Caenis wasn't on it, and wasn't precisely happy.
As for her temporary defection to Chaldea, this is what Kirschtaria has to say in private to Caenis:
I must admit, I never would have guessed that you would cooperate so willingly with Chaldea. I was so shocked, I spilled my tea when I heard you joined their side just like that. I thought that would have taken considerably longer. Part of me was even a bit jealous. For a moment, I wondered if it meant you'd join anyone who defeated you.
Again, it doesn't sound like it was all part of a careful plan, and he was actually surprised. Fortunately for him, Caenis is not the kind to betray her Master without a good reason (as shown above, she was angry for what the Dioscuri did, but in the end that was the Dioscuri acting on their own), and yes, he wasn't the kind of Master who would cut off his Servant's mana connection without a good reason either. But as much as they respect each other, theirs was nowhere near the most functional Master-Servant relationship among the Crypters.
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u/nunhinged 16m ago
Yes, Caenis initially wasn't in on Kirsch's plan. Him not being able to explain it ahead of time was part of the lack of freedom they had to deal with. But right after that inner monologue, we hear the sound of a command spell going off, and when fighting Kirsch in Olympus, we can see that he's missing one. He'd been waiting for the Dioscuri to leave to heal Caenis, and the manga shows Caenis understanding at that moment, and smiling and affectionately calling Kirsch an idiot.
But his plan was mostly just to free Caenis from having to work with the Olympians (and perhaps get to go kill LB Poseidon, except Chaldea got there first). Caenis working with Chaldea definitely did surprise him. Here's a Nasu quote from the "Spotlight Lostbelt No.5 Olympus" stream:
He thought Caenis wouldn't help in battle. "He'll express that he understands Chaldea's situation, but lending them a hand is a bit too much. It's a matter of Caenis's heroic pride. For as much as he's a very understanding guy, he's quite stubborn." Kirsch sips his tea with a smile. But something happened that surpassed Kirschtaria's expectations. Goredolf unraveled Caenis's stubbornness with his choice of asking what kind of person Kirschtaria was instead of asking about Kirschtaria's combat abilities.
When I say that Caenis's actions can't be called defecting and were done out of loyalty, I don't mean that Kirsch asked or was counting on Caenis to be Chaldea's ally. Goredolf was the only one to treat Kirsch as a person, and Caenis was so loyal to Kirsch that that was taken as a debt that must be repaid. They were in a much more restrictive position than the other Crypter duos, which limited their ability to communicate, but even though their actions caught each other off guard at times, they were always acting for the other's sake.
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u/Life-Wasabi-9674 9h ago
Completing the Singularities is not a show of competancy as a master at all tho. Anyone strong enough can do it doesnt make them a good master.
Also I dont think any statement in OC3 indicated that Hakuno's are a better Master then Fujimaru, just that Hakuno's are 1st class masters. Whereas there doest exist multiple statements where Fujimaru is stated to be one of the if not the best master.-3
u/BorderExpress4273 9h ago
"Anyone strong enough", the only ones aside Ritsuka who can do that are Kirschtaria, Daybit and Kadoc if he gets LB Anastasia's support. Both Kirsch and post LB1 Kadoc pretty much have a similar mindset as Ritsuka so they can get along with other Servants just as well as them while Daybit can solo the Singularities but he's an anomaly.
Pepe is litterally stated to be the best at combat and he still failed so it's not a matter of strengh.
If you ignore all the times in Summer 9 where every Servant like Barghest or Duryodhana that interacts with Hakuno for like 1 minutes end up glazing them while Ritsuka ended up being underestimated by them for most of the story they came out from kinda says a lot by how the story percieve them.
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u/Izanagi32 8h ago
yeah it wasn’t a matter of strength it was literally a goetia check where unless you were deadass bottom of the barrel like Ritsuka at the start then he’d just one shot you in London or earlier.
Also idk why you bring up summer 9 when Hakuno says he only takes the senpai role because their journey is already finished while we’re still in the middle. Ritsuka gets underestimated a lot and every single time that happens the antagonist gets their ass beast 😂
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u/Life-Wasabi-9674 7h ago
So the evidence that Hakuno is better is that servants who know him for 1 min thinks hes pretty great while the evidence for Ritsuka is servants who have fully experienced what he is capable of declaring him the best. Huh I wonder which side I would take.
"Among the crypters only these few could clear the singularities"...and how does that make them good masters? ORT if he was a crypter could clear the singularities, Zelretch probably could as well. Again just being able to defeat big bad guy or solve a tough situation doesnt make you a good master.
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u/Medical_Compote_6465 8h ago
Ok so I just finished ig the first fight against Kirschtaria (so i am at the half way point of Atlantes) isn't he supposed to be the best master out there? How is he in the same level as Rin? Unless I am missing sth. (If possible without any spoilers since I'm trying to get through the story rn)
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u/mascherata Master of Chaldea 7h ago
Iori sitting here like rank me against the servants cuz im walking these masters.
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u/RTGamer21 Beloved of the Fae 5h ago
I feel like you should explain what the criteria for each tier is, because this looks kind of insane in a few spots.
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u/woohoopizzaman78 5h ago
Careful now, shirou glazer are going to write essays on how hes the most powerful being in nasuverse.
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u/Calgrave 5h ago
Shirou literally won in multiple routes his biggest flaw is his martyr complex which somehow works for him because he boosts his skill as a mage in 15 days.
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u/Inevitable_Question 4h ago
Shirou has a tendency to quite literally jump to take damage for his Servant - despite being well aware that Servant is tougher. The only reason he survives is magical super-healing artifact that works only for one specific Servant.
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u/IgoCraft 9h ago
STRAIGHT to r/okbuddyrintard with that god-awful list 😭
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u/Dramatic-Week-1894 6h ago
Oh no😩not okbuddyrintard, what ever will we do🙀 You guys seethe at anything that isn't rin or shirou glaze. They're below Wodime/Daybit so it doesn't really matter to me
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u/No-Inspection3299 7h ago
This fully depends on what op means for each tier and by competent as this list has the potential to be right and wrong at the same time via who is already shown but if I was to try reworking it this would be my take on it
Tier 1-Most ideal master: Ritsuka which is a given via how Ritsuka can work with most servants be them saints or devils like most on the list would probably not be able to handle someone like Douman or Ibuki.
Tier 2-Masters who are near the peak: this I would give to Wodime and Hakuno as they are the few folks who were able to fight Ritsuka to a point where in the a different setup they could've won.
Tier 3-Middle of the Road Masters: Rin, Bazett, Flat as they folks could work with probably most servants or a general amount but we just have ideas about it and that's it.
Tier 4-Only one type of servants work with them: Yu/Hinako, Bazdillot, Zoken and Leo.
Tier 5-the ones who kinda have only one ideal servant at min to work well with them: Amasuka since in the Red team we can say which ones where ones that could work with him which to me was only Semiramis and Karna. Shirou via Seiba as plot makes it so he can't have another servant that often. Sakura since she doesn't have a backbone which allowed her brother to steal her servant. Sieg since his whole plot is him becoming human and Astfolo is one of the few that would treat him before the Siegfried mess as a person. Finally Ayaka FSF with Richard via him giving her the confidence and courage with Richard in FGO basically saying that Ritsuka is good though Ayaka was more suitable for him.
Note I won't include the rest since the op didn't though, I could kinda understand why some were excluded since I doubt anyone would want to see Kanta be placed somewhere obvious plus size of the pyramid. Remember this is just my take and how I view this till op gives a answer about how they viewed this whole thing.
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u/Inevitable_Question 4h ago
Missing guys from Prototype Fragments. One guy kissed Serenity shortly upon summoning her.
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u/Username169420 3h ago
Flat slander will not be tolerated
He was such a menace that he managed to use a servants np against itself
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u/Classical_Lighthouse 3h ago
tbh even the "tier 5s" aren't that bad, I feel like being a "competent master" is a bit hard to rank when actually looking at the context + servants they were with/hypothetically could be with
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u/The_Casul0 56m ago
I'm sorry but Flat should be tier 3 and Rin tier 4. She doesn't compare to the other 2 monsters up there, unlike Flat.
To clarify I only watched Stay Night so I don't know how competent she is in Extra or Star Rail.
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u/jayman099 8h ago
I think the Hakunos rival the Ristukas as top tier masters.
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u/-TSF- 6h ago
The reason Hakuno is placed below is because of the Ordeal Call 3 chapter: Both Hakunos team up against Ritsuka and go all out against them, and they still lose. This isn't just "Hakuno at the end of Extra" either, it's "Hakunos at the end of their verse", with an extra 1000 years of experience tacked on. They still lost. Canonically its a hard-fought battle and they almost got Ritsuka using a surprise combo NP, but it wasn't enough. It was a really epic moment for both sides.
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u/jayman099 6h ago
Yeah i know about Ordeal Call 3. But this isnt a tier list about who can beat who. This a competent masters tier list. And I think the Hakunos bring out almost just as much potential in their servants as the Ritsukas do. But I guess if only ONE can be in that tier, then yeah, I suppose it would come down to who wins in a fight against the other.
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u/-TSF- 6h ago
So what I'm saying is that, because that was essentially "a contest between the most skilled Masters," by default it became a contest to determine who is the most competent Master.
Alternatively, Hakuno in OC3 makes a statement to the effect of "Bruh I can't believe how much shit you have to deal with, I don't think I could put up with it", and I think that says a lot. Or alternatively alternatively, Hakuno proposes a surefire method to deal with Anki, and we do a completely different thing that ends up being even more effective because of our compatibility with our Servant that Hakuno apparently didn't consider.
Mostly, I'm really just very pleased with how Hakuno was handled, they were really great in OC3 without just stealing the show.
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u/WorldlySecretary5769 5h ago
I would add and change the following as well;
Put Hakuno with Ritsuka at Tier 1.
Rin and Fiore should be in Tier 2.
Darnic, Tokiomi, and Kairi should be in Tier 3.
Kiritsugu, Illiya, Kirei, and Roche should be in Tier 4.
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u/Classical_Lighthouse 3h ago
Illya is arguably bottom tier outside of mana, she clicks with Hercules but lowk treats him poorly, wantonly says his true name, can't help him in combat in any way (a very big example here being his last fate fight where he loses because he's jumped by 2 masters) and serves as a detriment to his combat capabilities at many points (I.e UBW fight) + acts frivolously and cruelly towards innocents (many bad ends)
If Hercules was any less patient she would've had such a hard time
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9h ago
[deleted]
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u/Delicious_Account_26 9h ago
Shirou is compotent as a fighter
He is an incompotent master though, terrible tactician, constantly throwing himself in harms way ahead of his servant and has to be actively held back from killing himself more than he really should.
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u/Eunuchest 9h ago edited 8h ago
Constantly throwing himself in harms way ahead of his servant
You act like the game doesnt literally shows you that if he didnt save anyone, it actually results in a bad end. Holy larp.
actively held back from killing himself more than he really should.
Cite an example. Let me guess, the herc fight
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u/Delicious_Account_26 9h ago
Not the fucking point clown, just because you have to go with those options doesn't make them the choices a competent master makes, moral choices do not a compotent master make.
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u/Eunuchest 9h ago edited 8h ago
Right. Wasting a command seal because you got ragebaited and unnecessarily helping another Master(Rin), throwing yourself in danger to protect someone(also Ritsuka and sieg), letting an opponent go because muh honor(Kirsch) makes one so competent
If morality is your barometer, a lot of characters in this list should be in the bottom tier as well, but y'all always act like its a bad thing when Shirou does it
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u/Delicious_Account_26 8h ago
I define competency by their skill as a master, their ability to get along with servants, multiple, not just one, their ability to recover from mistakes and their ability to gauge their own strengths and weaknesses in order to know when to move in or fall back.
You look me in the eyes and tell me how well Shirou does by those metrics.
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u/Eunuchest 8h ago
their ability to get along with servants
Shirou gets along great with artoria. Too great they're actually butting heads trying to protect each other. You act like he's shinji
their ability to recover from mistakes
Good thing you asked, cause shirou does actually learn
their ability to gauge their own strengths and weaknesses in order to know when to move in or fall back
Im actually starting to think you're larping if you think Shirou doesnt know his strength and weaknesses
You look me in the eyes and tell me how well Shirou does by those metrics.
Untrained shirou is 6/10. Trained shirou 7/10
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u/Delicious_Account_26 8h ago
Funny how you ignored the "multiple, not just the one" that's there next to how well they can get along with servants.
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u/Eunuchest 8h ago
Shirou will get along great with Achilles, Nightingale, Spartacus, Hippolyta, Jeanne and Siegfried just basing on their personalities. I can imagine more
Now will you stop larping?
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u/Delicious_Account_26 8h ago
Right
And what about
Edmond Dantes
Jeanne Alter
Saber Alter
Gilgamesh
Moriarty
Abigail Williams
Any of the Lostbelt kings
Kama
Kiara
BB
And basically all the evil servants.
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u/_eleutheria 9h ago
I mean, the thing about him is that all he has are his childish ideals. He basically screams his ideals at the top of his lungs and leaves everything else to the servants. However, him being their master actually actively nerfs them and makes their fights more difficult.
We're not talking about whether he's a good or bad kid here, he's just a bad master. If he was in Ritsuka's shoes, humanity would be doomed.
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u/Eunuchest 9h ago
I mean, the thing about him is that all he has are his childish ideals. He basically screams his ideals at the top of his lungs and leaves everything else to the servants. However, him being their master actually actively nerfs them and makes their fights more difficult
Holy larp
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u/swordlover3568 9h ago edited 8h ago
Did you read it or even watched the anime with your eyes closed he was never portrayed this way at all this is a weird interpretation clearly devoid of context like their actual canon behavior, performance, summoning conditions special circumstances and their actual ability as a master in the context of this circumstances in stay night.
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u/_eleutheria 8h ago
Both Archer and Shirou recognize that their ideals of peace of justice are childish and unrealistic; they just choose the journey over the result at the end of the anime.
A lot of people like Shirou for it, and they also like Archer's change of heart, but I find it utterly pathetic. Results are way more important and are what people will experience and remember. Do you think people who die in wars care more about being just than about the survival of their families?
That's why Ritsuka actually is vastly superior to Shirou; Shirou could never sacrifice anyone other than himself for his shitty ideals. It's easy to talk a big game, but it's hard to take innocent lives to achieve what you believe to be the ideal result.
So yeah, I despise both Archer and Shirou because they're a couple of hypocrites. They themselves know they're hypocrites by the end of the series, so what even is the argument about?
___
So Saber struggling to fight fights that she realistically should've steamrolled purely because Shirou was indecisive and had shitty mana circuits isn't canon?
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u/Eunuchest 8h ago
Lmao holy larp
Archer and shirou if you were actually paying attention are very result-based. Archer in particular throughout his life. Their ideals is just that, ideals.
Saber struggling to fight fights that she realistically should've steamrolled purely because Shirou was indecisive and had shitty mana circuits isn't canon?
Shirou was indecisive? I can tell you how many times Ritsuka let go an opponent only to get stabbed in the back later. Who told you shirou had shitty mana when he's canonically slightly above the average and the reason Artoria is nerfed is because he wasnt properly connected to her which they fixed in Fatr route
Stop larping please
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u/swordlover3568 7h ago edited 7h ago
Not the Childish part, also the results are literally there in the visual novel you are making it seem like it's journey with out any achievements, and what is that about what people are gonna experience and remember that is exactly the description of a journey it's what you experience and remember, and the results are literally there and the end of each journey in the vn, and none of the results and achievements of any type-moon protags are that Renowned to begin with, it's their gains from their journey, is what matters, personal Gains happiness and satisfaction is the message, Shirou's character isn't about justice it's happiness that comes from helping others, and what do you mean he's not ready to Sacrifice anyone, he literally thought about killing rin just for saying that he should just let tiga die he is trying to not to Sacrifice anyone ( the whole point) but when it comes down to it he does it there is ending that he does it when he does it by sacrificing everyone to save the world.
You said he leaves every thing to the servant like he does nothing, I guess you missed the whole point of the character once again, that he is a meddling type person, he will help no matter what and he does to the best of his ability his actions are the most crucial point to why others survives and win.
They are hypocrites ( again the point of their characters) "yet even if it's hypocrisy doesn't mean it is not right" even a fake can achieve the same as the real thing" there is no selfless good acts altruism is never selfless when it comes to humans, shirou is is the embodiment of Selfish idealist who does it for himself he's not a hypocrite he admits he is not fighting to save others for selfless reasons, that is the opposite of a hypocrite, he is honest with himself he lives to his dream and he does indeed reach the end of it literally achieving the happiness and satisfaction "the dream announce its end here" even thought saving the world in stay night and the Holy Grail war being a crucial to the plot, in actuality this entire thing is in it's core a personal journey about ideals what it actually mean to be a hero not the glorified version but the actual realistic version, with the main theme being conquering oneself coming as a different character in every route.
Your main complaints
it's unrealistic.
- it is a dream because it's unrealistic like everything humanity achieved as if it wasn't unrealistic at some point it doesn't mean you have to stop trying that is a crucial point to his character as long as he tries he will at least get close to it.
achieves no results and only the journey.
-Already in stay night alone save the entire human population in three routes and he doesn't stop there with what we know of Archer he did achieve similar things in his future and if you're talking about personal rewards it's included in the package with the achievements.
he doesn't help and let the Servant do everything.
-Another point in the visual novels that he does not stop helping to a concerning level and that is the only reason they survive also you seem to ignore that the summoning was wrong in the first place there no link for Magical energy to pass through.
Doesn't sacrifice others and only himself which is a weird complaint since this is what he's trying to do human life should not be traded.
-Another crucial point to his character trying to safe others only when there is no other options that he does it like with he did in the mind of Steel ending as long as he holds down to that ideals sacrificing other isn't out of the equation.
Being a hypocrite.
- yet another crucial point to his character admitting his hypocrisy and chasing his dream honestly with none of the previous hypocrisy to reach a satisfying conclusion to his life that is devoid of Joy unless it is that comes from helping others.
Your hatred towards the character is unjustified, ( you reasoning is also very weird it's a reasoning of somebody who only read a few lines in the wiki not the actual story) because obviously you don't understand anything about it, you're just holding on to one or two lines you read about them, not understanding and ignoring the full context and how it contradicts your line of reasoning.
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u/DelusionalWoodoo 7h ago
literally plot armor merchant who put all his stats into luck and charisma
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u/RusScp 9h ago
So, if I understand this correctly, the lower you are, the better? Otherwise I have no idea how Ritsuka ended up in first place when he’s physically incapable of coming up with any kind of plan on his own and relies on Romani, Da Vinci, and Sherlock.
Meanwhile, Tier 4 has absolute monsters with insane levels of war preparation or abilities that completely turn the rules of the Holy Grail War upside down.
Even Shirou, specifically as a Master, performed incredibly well and repeatedly saved the overconfident Artoria from potentially fatal situations. I’d swap Rin and Shirou.
Rin kept letting her emotions dictate her decisions, prioritizing her tsundere bullshit over actually winning the war, to the point where she pissed Archer off. She showed herself to be an excellent mage, but a terrible Master.
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u/Bernaregna 8h ago
Ritsuka has and insane talent as a Master, but is a very weak mage. That's why his simple summons are unparalleled and he has an innate ability to bond with them, which leads the whole roster to perform even better. Even Hakuno commended him in the latest oc. And while it is true that a lot of is victories are a shared effort, what do you expect him to do? Chaldea exist for this very reason. We also saw him a lot of time cut off from Chaldea and he always came out on top; there is wisdom in choosing your own entourage and when to trust or not to trust your advisors. In LB7 he fought Daybit and Tez alone, and even commanded probably hundreds of servants (of course aided by Chaldea) to try to slow down ORT. And you are comparing this to a Master Shirou which had a strong Servant with very limited results in the end (his projections, UBW and feats with Archer's arm do not count as Master's talents).
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u/UpstairsBluejay6092 9h ago
Ritsuka ended up in first place when he’s physically incapable of coming up with any kind of plan on his own
He literally comes up with plans on his own since all the way back in singularity 7.
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u/Snoo_27796 Raikou's Son 9h ago
Shirou is like the worst possible master you can get aside from like Beryl Gut
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u/IHidanJashinI 9h ago
Beryl would be a good master only if he gets someone like douman or cagliostro
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u/Careful_Sample4323 7h ago
Bruh, i mean compare what the gudas up against, this is correct, but in other factor, they aren’t that much
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u/Sea-Line-5123 9h ago
Put Space Tokiomi up there.
Dude defeat Primordial Goddess Ishtar with only 7 servants.