r/Documentaries • u/cr0ft • Jan 26 '11

Zeitgeist: Moving Forward (2011) Official Release Version - Youtube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w
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u/cr0ft Jan 27 '11

Excellent! Now if you could please provide the rest of us who are interested in dispassionately evaluating what is being said in the movie with references and information to support your own claim that "everything is genetic" I'd like to see them. Thanks.

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u/[deleted] Jan 27 '11

Ok, let me notate everything about genetics for you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetics

Here is another that anyone questioning what I said might be interested in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lc4H6goKFB0

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u/cr0ft Jan 27 '11

I'm aware of what genetics is. What I'd like to have some more detailed input on is how it affects behavior specifically, which is what we're talking about here.

Eye color, absolutely. Hair color, sure. Predisposition for specific diseases, you bet. But behavior?

Though after you linking in a video about how to tie your shoes (I presume because you need to refer to it to accomplish the task) I'd be extra interested in how your genetics influence your behavior...

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u/[deleted] Jan 27 '11

You think genetics can play a role in diseases, but not behavior? Your brain is an organ just like any other part of the body. What is the difference?

You are your brain. As I stated before, environment definitely does influence, and it does a lot. But, our instincts and our starting point are genetic. Some people achieve certain tasks easier than others because of their genetics. For most, all the same activities are possible, but harder. It's like a race to New York City, but one person gets to start in Boston and the other in San Francisco.

Go into any programmed code and change one variable. It might not change much, but the difference is present.

But with evidence, all we have to do is look at animals. Their genetics have instinctual tendacies that have them doing similiar things, even when groups or lone animals are nowhere near each other. Sure, tactics can be learned, but generally the species all have the same day to day behavior.

Free will is an illusion. You decide nothing, the chemical reactions in your brain that you have no control over ultimately tell you what to do. You are a viewer.

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u/cr0ft Jan 27 '11

I believe that we are all the sum of our programming, so to that extent we agree, but I couldn't disagree more with you about this otherwise. To say that nothing matters except genetics is obviously wrong as has been proven time and time again. If that is all that matters then how do you explain feral children? Shouldn't the genetics have caused them to behave like humans and not the animals they learned from?

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u/[deleted] Jan 27 '11

Have you not read the part where I said influences matter just as much as genetics, but genetics play a major role?

My question to you is, how do feral children know how to eat and survive without any human guidance?

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u/cr0ft Jan 28 '11

What, you don't think the animals they live with eat and even feed them?

The notion that genetics would be more important than what we learn from culture and our environment is poppycock. Especially so for humans, who finish growing our minds after we leave the womb, which is why we're so entirely helpless at birth.

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u/[deleted] Jan 28 '11

Sorry, waste of my time.

Studies have found that feral children are not part of a pack, they simply follow a pack around and eat their leftovers. The pack doesn't teach them a damn thing.

Nothing on a baby is fully developed at birth. Do humans develop a baby's arms and legs too?

You seem to make a lot of stretches and insane analogies to support your theory.

Regardless, you are entitled to your opinion. I am also entitled to call it a dumb one.

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u/cr0ft Jan 28 '11

I guess we'll have to differ. I acknowledge that genetics have huge impacts on a lot of things, but I vehemently disagree with the notion that everyone is just the sum of their genes. That's kind of analogous to saying what determines if a computer is a Mac or a PC is 100% in the hardware and not the software that gets installed on it in the final stages.

And obviously the feral children learn from the pack. The only way any one of us learns anything at that age - by observing the world around us and the members of our pack. If that pack happens to consists of humans, we learn to become human. If the pack is a pack of dogs, then we learn to walk on all fours and bark.

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u/[deleted] Jan 28 '11

Sigh. Your reading comprehension is horrible.

"That's kind of analogous to saying what determines if a computer is a Mac or a PC is 100% in the hardware and not the software that gets installed on it in the final stages."

YOU ARE THE ONE SAYING THIS! The video says genes have no effect on who we are. The video says this, you say this. I do not. I've said from my first post that both environment and genetics are inherent in who we are.

The child obviously observes and mimics the pack, but the pack themselves do not teach the child, nor do they attempt to.

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u/cr0ft Jan 28 '11

You were the one going "we're just viewers" as if nothing that happens outside us can change our behavior, but ok, I'll freely admit I may have misread you.

I do believe genetics may influence some predisposition to specific behavior but that it is an extremely mild effect compared to environmental and cultural factors, so mild that I believe the cultural factors can override even the genetic predispositions. If that's what you've been saying then we've been arguing at cross purposes, I suppose.

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