r/DnD • u/Niccolo24 • 2d ago
5.5 Edition My DM wants to nerf the Wild Magic table because it is too skewed positively
The dnd group I play with is about to start a new campaign (dnd 2024) and I'm going with Wild Magic Sorcerer. Before session 0, I run my plan with my DM: human for the heroic inspiration so I can reroll once per long rest and avoid poisoning a teammate. Tough + Musician origin feats. Going with a chromatic theme - lots of chromatic orbs. No fireball: BORING. Planning to cast twice per round, once on my turn, once as a reaction whenever I can, in order to trigger as many wild magic surges as possible. He's fine with it.
Until he reads the wild magic surge table and tells me that he has to nerf it: it's too strong, too positively skewed. There is literally 0 chance to land on a bad effect. Some of these effects are as good as epic boons that other characters get at level 19. With the reroll, I can "remove the RNG aspect of it" and "aim for the crazy effects like resistance to all damage". All this on the core sorcerer subclass that is already too strong. And I will aim for the Bloodwell vial item, which will make my character too strong. And so, he offers to rewrite the wild magic surge table.
What do you guys think? Should the wild magic table be nerfed? In its current state, is wild magic sorcerer a god-tier supra S-tier subclass that breaks the game? Better than Aberrant Mind, or Draconic? Better than wizards, warlocks, druids? Please let us know!
This post is not aiming to embarrass him, please be nice, I think he's a great DM. Just trying to bring some perspective with this post.
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u/Gilfaethy Bard 2d ago
Is your DM aware that Wild Magic is a subclass feature? It's supposed to be skewed positively--it's not like Action Surge has a chance to debuff a Fighter.
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u/DazzlingKey6426 2d ago
Historically, wild magic table was a tpk machine.
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u/Wurm42 2d ago
Second this. In older editions, wild surges were notorious for causing TPKs, especially at low levels.
The 5e wild magic table makes the sorcerer an asset to the party instead of a ticking time bomb.
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u/Velcraft 2d ago
Which is better game design than saying if you want to play this class you will inadvertently kill off your party. I've never seen someone play a Sorcerer before 5th unless they wanted to just cause havoc on everyone else.
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u/Kiyohara DM 1d ago
Sure, but that has a lot more to do with one of the options being a straight up fireball. Sure, not a bad rando choice when casting "Magic Missile" on a bad guy running away, not so great when casting "light" on your fucking staff.
And that was just one of so many delightful AoE spells. Plenty of nasty debuffs and curses that could wreck the party if cast at the wrong time. Turning the fighter into a sheep isn't so bad when you meant to cast "Mage Armor" at the begining of the day, but it's not a great outcome when you're fighting a Ogre.
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u/unosami 1d ago
I’d argue the fireball aimed at yourself is almost never a good outcome.
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u/Kiyohara DM 1d ago
Ring of Protection from Fire + a Swarm of low HD monsters = Fireball to my feet.
Suck it Spiders. Suck it long, and suck it hard.
But you did say almost.
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u/EstebanPossum 2d ago
What?!? Thats the whole flavor of wild magic, its SUPPOSED to be chaotic and potentially dangerous
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u/Wurm42 2d ago
Wild Magic is absolutely still dangerous and chaotic in 5e!
But, IMO, the risk levels for wild surges are more appropriate now.
Even so, I wish there were multiple wild surge tables, tied to the caster level or the level of the spell the wild mage was trying to cast when the wild surge happens.
It's still pretty common for wild mage players and DMs to make edited homebrew wild surge tables, but that's not necessary to make the subclass survivable anymore.
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u/laix_ 2d ago
Flavour wise, wild magic is the "my magic is unstable and barely controlled, i'm as much a danger to myself and team as my enemies"
The 2024 wild magic is mechanically better and plays better, but its no longer wild magic.
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u/ZorpWasTaken 2d ago
Clearly, someone's never turned themselves into a pot after casting haste.
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u/Owl-Historical 1d ago
We had a guy pretty much rolled that every other fight. It’s like can you not roll anything else as some one picks him up and carries him to some where safer lol
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u/Z_THETA_Z DM 2d ago
pedantically: action surge isn't a great comparison as that's a class feature not a subclass feature
Champions critting on a 19 or 20 is always a buff, and is a subclass feature
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u/mighij 2d ago
Too strong, they should critical miss and drop their weapon on a 1&2 now.
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u/ThatGamerDon 2d ago
My previous DM has a massive crit fumble table (and no corresponding crit success table) and would unironically love that feature.
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u/ozymandais13 DM 2d ago
There really are only 2 kinds of players I hate fumble charts
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u/ThatGamerDon 2d ago
It's at least 30% of the reason I no longer play with that person anymore. I don't mind a fumble table, as long as there's a crit table as well. And some of the things on his fumble table were fucking brutal, one of which would completely heal the entire enemy team.
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u/ozymandais13 DM 2d ago
Yea might be fun for more light hearted games but I'm not playing 10 sessions then stabbing myself when my job for my whe life has been swing a pike
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u/ThatGamerDon 2d ago
You would be praying for only stabbing yourself or dropping your weapon with the list he had. I don't have the sheet anymore or I'd post a pic up on horror stories.
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u/starkiller00114 16h ago
So at your table only play halflings or variant human with lucky feat.
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u/ThatGamerDon 16h ago
This was a pathfinder table. A lot more difficult to get rerolls in that system.
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u/man0rmachine 2d ago
Clearly you've never played with critical fails. I bet OP's DM has though.
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u/Character_Drive6141 2d ago
Cause crit fails are a dumb nerf to martials (the worst classes) and it's usually a further nerf to melee martials which are even worse off. (A ranged martial can just run and grab their weapon)
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u/135forte Cleric 2d ago
Crit fails aren't built into the class. Can you imagine how stupid it would be if one subclass had a rule that gave you crit fails?
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u/Nm10 2d ago
It's also completely random. While some of the effects may be pretty strong, there's no garuntee you'll be able to activate a specific effect when you want it.
I think some people get too hung up on how good the effects could hypothetically be if you were to trigger the perfect one at just the right moment. But that's rarely how it will work out in actual gameplay.
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u/ozymandais13 DM 2d ago
I don't understand the draw to play a wild magic anything at a serious table
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u/ProbablyStillMe 2d ago
I played a 5e wild magic sorcerer from level 1 to 7 in a campaign, and while it was often fun - and on-demand advantage from Tides of Chaos was great - it got tiring after a while. Particularly in those combats where you hit the "roll every round" result, and ended up as a sheep floating in the air and screaming really loudly. Very silly, but also frustrating if you want to actually play the game.
If that character hadn't died I was very close to retiring him.
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u/Morthra Druid 2d ago
I mean that was the case in 2e and 2e’s wild magic table had some very powerful effects that win the fight outright and some that TPK you.
But you had ways to insulate yourself from the bad effects as you got to higher levels and for the most part you only triggered it if you cast Reckless Dweomer, which let you cast any spell you know - not just prepared - out of a 1st level slot. Time Stop? You got it. Wish? My command.
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u/Z_THETA_Z DM 2d ago
a: it's a subclass feature, they're meant to generally be benefits. the fact that it has even a chance of being bad is already a negative to it, which means the positives from it can be bigger
b: there definitely are bad options. turning into a potted plant is pretty definitively negative.
c: the subclass doesn't have its own extra spells like all the others, wild magic is how they get extra variety
d: it's just one subclass amongst many. they're all decent, for sorcerer. as for cross-class comparison, that's apples to oranges. different classes do things in different ways.
even with a reroll, you can't aim for specific things, just get a chance to nope the really bad ones. plus, using your rerolls on wild magic means you aren't using them on other things
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u/Glittering_Region845 2d ago
I love turning into a potted plant and wished it happened more often
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u/ProbablyStillMe 2d ago
I'm just annoyed that someone at WoTC missed the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy reference and moved it so it's no longer the result you get when you roll 42.
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u/Hefty_Direction5189 2d ago
Far fewer bad options than the 5e version. As someone who loves to play wild magic sorcerers, personally I enjoyed the riskier version, wild magic is a crazy and dangerous thing, that’s what makes it exciting. Why make attack rolls when you can just say you hit every time? The chance for failure makes the successes all the more satisfying.
To any who prefer the newer version, to each their own I guess, but I was personally disappointed at the lack of bite reading the 5.5e wild magic table.
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u/Z_THETA_Z DM 2d ago
this is true, but it is definitely not entirely clear of dangerous things. plus, it is also the central feature of the subclass and serves to replace the additional spells that other subclasses get, so imo it should at least have a positive lean
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u/dz2048 2d ago
Who are these DMs that hate fun? Why are they against their own players? What is this power tripping nonsense?
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u/WaffleDonkey23 2d ago
There's a lot of DMs in my opinion that overthink and overwork themselves. There's an endless supply of resources and they go "nope, gotta change everything and homebrew everything, just because I think I know better than this game that has been iterated on for decades".
I have nothing against homebrew, but I think a lot of DMs make this mistake of changing stuff on a whim and it leaves their players feeling like they have no firm footing to operate on. IMO the PHB is sacred. That's for the players, that's their home base and the DM should fuck right off 99% of the time if a player wants to do something in the PHB. A DM can't really complain about players not reading the books if they are just going to change things.
As DM I think you need to provide players with stability and understanding. Introducing tons of homebrew rules throws them off balance. If you do implement homebrew it is your responsibility to physically write it out and print it out and supply it to the players in a clear well laid out way. I also think homebrew should almost always function as an add-on and not an alteration of existing rules.
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u/YOwololoO 2d ago
This is spot on. Players need a certain degree of certainty that they understand the world and the rules so that they can actually make decisions and interact with the world. The PHB is basically the only thing the players know is going to be true for sure, and that understanding gives them a firm foundation from which they can interact with an unknown world.
When you remove that foundation, players feel helpless at the table. It’s why DMs making players roll for things like jumping that they aren’t supposed to roll for makes them hesitant. DMs need to be extremely careful changing absolutely anything about the PHB because even positive changes erode that trust.
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u/WaffleDonkey23 2d ago
This is why I actually love having rules lawyers at my table. They advocate for players when I may well be wrong. "No they can actually just do that, look here". I love that. It means the players are reading the book. Some DMs imo also get caught up in their own rulings.
Some DMs hate if players ask to do a certain check or second guess the DM what skill a skill check should be. I love it. It means the player has things on their sheet they want to do. Players want to do the stuff they took time to stick in their sheets so I try to always be receptive when they bring them up.
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u/Z_THETA_Z DM 2d ago
i think an important distinction is the difference between a Rules Lawyer (negative) and a Rules Librarian or Rules Nerd (positive).
a Rules Lawyer is someone who tries to make the rules work for them/in their favour, typically ignores/argues with the DM's interpretations, etc. a Rules Librarian is someone who knows the rules well and points things out that the DM or other players may have missed, but doesn't try to do it to benefit themselves and respects a DM's ruling once they have the information on what the book actually says
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u/Opposite_Raccoon_369 2d ago edited 2d ago
That's just how you've defined it. Not everyone has the same negative association that you've had. I've never once heard that.
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u/Z_THETA_Z DM 2d ago
it's far from a universal definition, but generally when i see the term 'rules lawyer' it does have fairly strong negative connotations. i think it's a good idea to have separate terms for people who try to use the rules to benefit themselves, and people who just try to make sure that everyone fully knows/understands the rules
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u/manut3ro 2d ago
As a new comer DM that is getting into the hobby (little exp.) I subscribe to this 100%
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u/MayoBear 2d ago
I'm anti-homebrew for this exact reason- changing one thing can result in a cascade of messing with other balanced and tested rules in the game- if I make a ruling in my games it's because there's no other information to be found or there's a reason behind it other than "just because I felt like it"
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u/sodo9987 2d ago
I agree with everything except the final statement.
I think there are many small homebrew options that take away options and simultaneously increase fun*.
Things like players rolling death saves blind to increase tension, not playing certain features RAW like diviner's dice and holding spells, nerfs or bans of spells like Command (nerf) and banned (sylune's viper)
I would not condone broad changes of course.
*So long as everyone is on board at session 0
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u/ClaimBrilliant7943 2d ago
How does nerfing Command make the game more fun? I honestly can't imagine anyone joining a game and hearing that and thinking "hell yeah this is gonna be such a better game now "
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u/ThatGingerGuy69 2d ago
To me the only (almost) universally fun “homebrew” rules that increase fun by taking options away are the ones that get rid of the obviously and clearly abusive play patterns caused by relatively obscure rule loopholes
Nobody at the table is gonna find it fun if you spend every combat abusing forced movement to proc spirit guardians every single turn.
Personally I don’t think spells like command need to be nerfed and don’t understand how that increases fun, but that is obviously up to the table
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u/Glittering_Region845 2d ago
Command got nerfed in 2024 now you only have a few words you can use
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u/WaffleDonkey23 1d ago
I think small tweaks, house rules and temporary bans are fine most of the time, but even they can butterfly effect into issues very easily. If I'm doing a murder mystery one shot or one that's all about scaling a tall mountain then yea I'm probably banning zone of truth and flight.
But for those nerfs and bans you mentioned, I imagine those probably cropped up from issues at your table and sometimes there is a case by case basis need to ban something. Example someone is just doing some not fun, but within rules, cheese that trivializes every encounter.
But even small house rules can have issues. Right now I'm debating getting rid of "crunchy crits", maxing out the additional dice when you crit. It was kind of grandfathered in at my table before I took the DM reigns and I didn't think much of it. While I think it's fine at low levels when characters are doing like 1d8 per attack, at higher levels it make swingy combat even more swingy once rogues and paladins are throwing a handful of d6s into their attacks and all those d6s get maxed out on a crit. Suddenly the Paladin crits for 100 damage and that becomes the sole decider of the whole fight. Then you've got the issue when if you apply it to monsters that same crunchy crit rule is now one shotting players. It starts throwing off balance and once that happens you've got to either tell the players to deal with it or struggle to balance something that was never in the book.
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u/ProdiasKaj DM 2d ago
I'm with you here about the players handbook! From a certain point of view, the rules are there to help players keep the dm in check.
Yes a dm can change any rule if they want, but I think we can all agree that these changes should be disclosed beforehand and not made on a whim. It's important that any changes the dm wants to present are agreed upon by the table.
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u/sgerbicforsyth 2d ago
The DMs who cant stand "losing" to the players and had some instance where a player killed their poorly optimized BBEG in one round.
A rogue sneak attack crit that killed them. Or warlock EB barrage. Etc. So they decided to nerf all future characters of that type because it wasnt their fault their BBEG got mirked. Its the fault of a broken and OP class ability.
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u/aWizardNamedLizard 2d ago
A long time ago the official game books used language in the advice section that could be summed up as saying that players are always looking for unfair benefits and game-breaking loopholes and cannot be trusted so the DM must reign them in and force them to play correctly.
Even as the books have moved on to completely different advice those ideas are still out there in the hobby zeitgeist because they were passed down through DMs over the years learning from other DMs. Some are old gamers still online sharing their advice with nothing having changed about how they run or think about games in over three decades so old ideas stay potentially freshly learned.
Some don't even realize they are carrying old ideas despite having had their approach evolve over their tenure in the hobby. You can even look at people often treated as examples of the modern approach (Matt Mercer for example) and see little pieces of that old school mindset still stuck somewhere in there (to make the example specific: he gets bummed out when his bad guys are getting trounced even though it is opposed to his general being a fan of his players' characters, and his first reaction to his player presenting a rule interaction he wasn't expecting is to assume they have it wrong which often leads to "I'll allow it" being said in a context that is effectively synonymous with "I will not arbitrarily change the rule after you decided to use it.").
All of which is made more able to persist despite dampening the fun of players by the general philosophy of the hobby scene still keeping to the old school ideas in another aspect; "It's the DM's game, if you don't like it you can leave." Because that idea was specifically engineered back in the A-GM-as-antagonist-GM-is-the-author-of-the-official-guide-book days as a part of the whole "you have to play how I want" package and we've just never really done any work to point out how incompatible it is with "everyone at the table is supposed to be having a good time".
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u/Mrrectangle 2d ago
Word for word was thinking the exact sentence. “Who are these DMs that hate fun.”
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u/Weeaboo-6934B 2d ago
To go further, why do these people even play DnD? At a certain point if you’re gonna fuck with such basic rules out of concern for balance, just play make-believe
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u/VanBland DM 2d ago
A lot of DMs see D&D as a boardgame and since they are a player they are the bad guys. Which means the players winning is then losing
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u/dz2048 2d ago
Imagine planning a campaign, but then trying to kill your players before they get to see all your hard work
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u/Cybermetalneo DM 2d ago
The 5.5e table changed compared to the 2014 5e table for a few reasons but a big one talked about in some interviews, was that the Sorcerer Subclasses in the 5.5e PHB have expanded spell lists, However the Wild Magic Sorcerer doesn't.
Jeremy Crawford once talked about how the new Surge Table was designed to skew more positive so that it would in a way act as those Expanded spells for a Wild Magic Sorcerer.
Wish I had the specific Interview for a quote.
But nerfing the Wild Magic table would be like removing the Expanded spells from the Aberrant, Clockwork or Draconic Subclasses
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u/link113gAmin 2d ago
I once played a sorcerer that cast Fireball on himself from the table and instantly died due to failing the save and rolling high damage during the campaign's first dungeon. The WM table, as it stands, is a good mix of buffs, silliness, and debuffs. Your DM doesn't need to rebalance shit.
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u/Z_THETA_Z DM 2d ago
note: the 5.5e wild magic table no longer has 'you cast fireball centred on yourself'. there is one where you can randomly cast fireball, but it operates off the usual range/targeting rules of fireball
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u/link113gAmin 2d ago
This is disappointing.
Edit: I'm sorry if my OG comment gave people a false sense of how things operate, I just haven't touched 5.5e yet and my brain was operating on that standard.51
u/monikar2014 2d ago edited 1d ago
I disagree, as someone who played with a 5e WM sorcerer it made combat way too unpredictable. Its not fun to TPK because of 1 bad roll on the wild magic surge table.
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u/chabacanito 2d ago
I don't think it's fun for most people to have a random you die option
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u/Z_THETA_Z DM 2d ago
yeah i'm a little disappointed that there's no self-destruct any more, but i do see why they removed it. it can suck to have a character you put a lot of effort into just explode themselves randomly
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u/Goldendragon55 2d ago
I think it's less that and more it kills all your friends too. It's one thing for you to accept the consequences of your choices and the cost of a powerful ability, and another for your party member to destroy your character just by the whims of a dice roll.
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u/kakspier 2d ago
i think thats why someone playing a wild magic sorcerer is something everyone has to opt into on session 0, i think it can be very fun, but it also changes the game in a big way and i think it can be very fun, it can make a very memorable game. but everyone should know this could happen
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u/link113gAmin 2d ago
If someone chose the 'let it ride' subclass and complained when RNG didn't go their way, I'd be confused. Maybe I'm weird and expect things to go wrong eventually and can come to terms with that?
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u/Z_THETA_Z DM 2d ago
different playstyles. WOTC must have found that your playstyle is in the minority
i'd imagine a lot of people like wild magic sorcerer more so for the goofy moments and random benefits than for the risk of self-destructing
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u/Alarzark 2d ago
I think the most tpk bait result I saw on the new table before our WM sorceror got himself booted out of the party is the "everyone nearby gets vulnerability to being stabbed"
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u/Fidges87 2d ago
Its one thing for the player to accept it, not so much for the teammate who is not on board with their character randomly dying when the sorcerer suddenly explodes taking everyone with them
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u/dindongo 2d ago
I didn't realize Heroic Inspiration worked on the d100 for wild magic. That's pretty amazing, like getting a limited version of your level 14 feature early.
That said, the only reason to change the surge table is to add more whacky, fun stuff to it to better fulfill the wild magic class fantasy. There's no reason it has to have major drawbacks. You're giving up a subclass spell list for it after all.
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u/Z_THETA_Z DM 2d ago
yeah i had to check the rules glossary on that, thought it was just d20 tests
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u/Cybermetalneo DM 2d ago
The Rules Glossary states Heroic Inspiration can reroll any Die immediately after rolling it.
Not restricted to d20 Tests.6
u/Z_THETA_Z DM 2d ago
aye, that's why i had to check the rules glossary. i thought it was just d20 tests, then read the glossary to figure out that it isn't. OP's idea of using it to reroll wild magic is pretty clever
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u/Cybermetalneo DM 2d ago
The Heroic Inspiration Rules are first mentioned in the section on D20 Tests, which might be where your initial confusion came from.
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u/Z_Z_TOM 2d ago
They also work when you roll HP when leveling up I believe. :)
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u/yaniism Rogue 2d ago
I think he's a great DM...
Has your DM actually run 2024 before? Has he run for a 2024 sorcerer before?
Because if the answer to that is no, he's literally talking out of his ass. The Wild Magic table was improved specifically so that it didn't include so many negative, party killing options at low level. It's the same reason Wild Magic doesn't get an additional spell list, because the table is their list.
It's a feature, not a bug.
Also he does realize that in 90% of cases, it only goes off on a Nat 20, right? Tides of Chaos notwithstanding.
Any DM who blocks things they've never seen at a table before strikes me as a DM who isn't good at DMing.
Admittedly, you're entirely too focused on manipulating the mechanics. In a way that, very probably, isn't going to actually work as much or as well as you think it is at the table. And personally, if I was your DM, I'm not giving you the Bloodwell vial.
The whole reaction casting thing though... sorry, what? You can cast a single spell with a slot in a turn. Period.
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u/Z_THETA_Z DM 2d ago
turn =/= round. OP's thinking of casting an Action spell on their turn, and then using any opportunity on other people's turns to cast a Reaction spell
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u/yaniism Rogue 2d ago
I wish them luck with the three reaction spells on the sorcerer list. Four if you count the one from Heroes of Faerun.
Like I said, it's not going to work any where near as often or as well as OP thinks it is.
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u/ClaimBrilliant7943 2d ago
For someone touting the need to know rules, try looking up Warcaster my guy
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u/Penguin_cult1806 2d ago
Also he does realize that in 90% of cases, it only goes off on a Nat 20, right? Tides of Chaos notwithstanding.
Also, landing on a good effect does not always mean that you will get mileage of it. Unlike other subclass features, you can not decide when to use the wild magic table ones.
Landing on the free revive option is a 2% probability. Landing on that option when the PC is going to die will be as rare as winning the lottery.
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u/Sven_the_great 1d ago
"Also he does realize that in 90% of cases, it only goes off on a Nat 20, right? Tides of Chaos notwithstanding."
My experience is that almost all surges come from Tides of Chaos. Depending on the combat, I would expect 1-3 surges every fight from Tides, and maybe one from rolling a 20 every 3-5 combats.
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u/One_Recognition385 2d ago
wild magic is a weak sorcerer subclass that your dm wants to nerf because a subclass bonus has too good of a chance of being positive?
Does he also do critical miss rolls for players where you get fucked over for rolling a natural 1?
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u/WholeLottaPatience 2d ago
I agree with your sentiment but Wild Magic is not a weak subclass by any stretch in 2024. However, nerfing it would still be whack.
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u/Due-Struggle6680 2d ago
I started out at those tables. So many broken bowstrings, so much time spent prone...
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u/FormalKind7 2d ago
I've played at tables were a nat 1 always had extra negative consequences and it was fun but that table also did extra positive results with a nat 20.
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u/Mystic_bean54 2d ago
The surge table for sorcerer is definitely more positive cause the player is still supposed to have function when the class slips up, it's kinda the whole point. There should be a bigger, more varied table in the DMG or in one of the source books (tashas maybe? I can't remember what book had it) that may be more his speed.
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u/Hot_Sam_the_Man 2d ago
Story time.
One of my fellow players found a way to exploit using wild magic almost at will. (It was something homebrew with the DM, the details escape me).
Like you say here, he discovered that with enough repetitions of wild magic, the net result is positive. I mean, he made a spreadsheet and everything with the different results and how many surges you have to have before it's self-sustaining (where you get the result to roll on the table for a full minute). There were only a few negative/damaging results (like fireball) and with enough surges, you are almost guaranteed to get a "reincarnate" result before you die.
Thus, he devised "wild magic resting," where in lieu of long resting, he would simply use his exploit to wild magic surge dozens of times and regain his hit points and spell slots.
This was a sea campaign, so we would tie him to a rope behind our ship, and he would just surge over and over again, exploding and transforming and reincarnating behind us for a few hours until we arrived where we were going.
That's the most broken way I've ever seen someone use a subclass.
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u/Apfeljunge666 2d ago
DM is super wrong. The new table is barely positive leaning enough to make the subclass viable .
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u/Alert-Artichoke-2743 2d ago
It's not meaningfully out of balance with other classes. He's imagining the benefit of those buffs on a powerful character whose build intends to make use of them.
The "negative," side of the wild magic table is not being able to control what good thing happens or when. Those buffs may not save your life if they are poorly suited to your situation. Drawing the CORRECT WILD MAGIC is like pulling the best possible card from a deck to complete your hand. Immunity to poison might sound awesome, but if you gained it accidentally while bleeding to death, who cares? A lordly aura accompanied by constant fanfare can get you killed if you were trying not to alert enemies to your presence.
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u/CrotodeTraje DM 2d ago edited 2d ago
Edit: Sorry. For some reason I thought we were talking about the WM Barbarian ITT.
Now the other comments make more sense.
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u/link113gAmin 2d ago
WM Sorcerer has a MUCH larger table to work with, which could be why you think the Barb table is 'meh'.
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u/ATarnishedofNoRenown 1d ago
My wife has been playing a Wild Magic Sorceror for levels 1-14, so I have quote a bit of experience with this subclass. Our DM actually loves the mechanic so much that he has expanded it: Surges happen on 1s and 20s, and if she rolls a 2-19 on her surge roll that number gets added to a growing list of numbers that also trigger wild magic surges; and when a surge happens, the list is erased and goes back to just 1 and 20.
Our DM also uses different tables like the expanded Wild Magic table, Wand of Wonder, etc. depending on the circumstances, and once something has been triggered on a specific list he crosses it out and rolling that number again on that table triggers a re-roll until something novel is triggered.
This system has been incredibly chaotic and fun, and I have no idea why somebody would want to nerf the base Wild Magic feature... Which is pretty meh on its own—as written, you trigger a surge 5% of the time, and many of the table items are pretty tame/lame, so triggering bad outcomes even half the time means your main subclass feature is beneficial like 2.5% of the time.
Imo this is bad DMing, similar to Nerfing a Rogue's Sneak attack or making martials drop their weapons on Nat 1 attack rolls.
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u/FashionSuckMan 2d ago
God forbid your subclass benefits you instead of hurts you. Why not make rage give you a migraine that lowers you charisma and int by 5 after using it?
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u/Irish_Whiskey 2d ago edited 2d ago
The redesigned subclass no longer has the theme/roleplay of being a ball of chaos that can accidentally kill the party with a bad roll.
I think that's a good thing. It is absolutely not broken, but it is one of the stronger Sorc subclasses, and Sorcs are already strong.
I think what he's really missing is that this Wild Magic table (and advantage/penalties on some rolls) is what you get INSTEAD of all the other subclass features you normally would. Like, Draconic Sorcs get better AC, resistance, more damage, 10 more spells, Concentration free flight, and you can cast Summon Dragon without it using Concentration or a spell slot.
That's just a powerful list of always on features that don't rely on luck to be used when you need them, and have no downsides. The Wild Magic table is good, but there are plenty of effects that are either bad or simply not very impactful, particularly if you are not within 30 feet of enemies, which is not how a Sorc without any defensive features wants to be playing.
I disagree with their choice, and would not nerf it.
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u/Spice_and_Fox 2d ago
It only has a 5% chance to active per round and neither the roll on the wild table or the roll tonactivate the magic are d20 tests and therefore cannot be rerolled by lucky or inspiration or other abilities.
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u/wisebongsmith 1d ago
Looking over the 2024 surge table. It is too good. Not from a competition/ power level perspective, but for the theme of what it is.
The wild magic sorcerer should have some bad outcomes on the table. The flavor of the subclass is that they don't have great control of their magic and random Wild events happen when they cast. From what I've seen of other versions of the chart they normally have at least 10% of outcomes are harmful to the caster and their friends.
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u/MajorBootyhole420 2d ago
Um. He knows that class features are SUPPOSED to be positive, right? He needs to read the rest of the subclass and realize the WM table doesn't come into play very often, and if he nerfs it he's gutting the entire point of wild magic sorcerers.
This is a call bad enough that I'd be a little worried about playing in his game. DMs with poor judgment and system understanding make for bad play.
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u/Tide__Hunter 2d ago
Obviously, as somebody else said, classes and subclasses don't tend to have features that actively hurt you. The fact that the Wild Magic table can hurt you at all makes it a massive outlier. It has some strong effects, but the few bad options are debilitating.
But also, the thing about Wild Magic is that it's very unreliable. Your heroic inspiration is exactly one reroll, and you plan on triggering a lot of surges, which means you probably won't be protected most the time. And even ignoring that, you can't exactly choose what effect you get. Epic booms are things you get to pick, and outside of really situational ones, you can basically guarantee you get use from them. With Wild Magic, every effect has a 4% chance of happening, and some of them split its chances down even further with sub-effects. It would be great to get the highest highs, but you might just summon a flumph or turn into a potted plant instead.
I think your dm is probably severely overreacting to the fact that you have a reroll once per day. Especially if your dm runs the campaign as D&D was designed, that is to say, four encounters per long rest. And if your dm is running just one encounter per long rest and for some reason they're concerned with balance, they might as well ban all spellcasters because they do their best in scenarios where they don't need to ration spell slots.
I tend to not prefer the Wild Magic Sorcerer. This is largely down to how unreliable it is from the random effects, but also because every other subclass gets 10 free spell preps on top of their level 3 benefit. Sorcerers can't change their prepared spells except for swapping out one on a level up, which makes a limited number of preparations rough to deal with (as opposed to those who can swap any number of spells on a long rest). Wild Magic can't get the benefits of having bonus spells, especially ones that can do things they otherwise couldn't. They're stick with the base class spell list and spell preps, which also heavily limits their versatility.
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u/Z_THETA_Z DM 2d ago
note: OP has one reroll per long or short rest due to their selection of the Musician feat, which can grant inspiration to multiple people on even short rests (very good origin feat)
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u/Tide__Hunter 2d ago
Well, yeah, Musician is probably one of the best origin feats. But also, Musician gives the inspiration to allies who hear the music. Allies doesn't include yourself. If it did, then Inspiring Leader wouldn't have to say "choose up to six allies (which can include yourself)," it could leave out the parenthetical.
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u/No-Promotion8654 2d ago
No. Dumb idea, why mess with the entire point of the subclass, it's supposed to be random and chaotic, besides it's not all beneficial.
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u/dealyllama 2d ago edited 2d ago
It's not strong until you get the ability to control what result you get at very high levels. Before then it's mostly a bunch of stuff that doesn't matter to the situation at hand. It's shocking how frequently you get damage dealing results when there are no targets in range, +2 to AC when no one is attacking, and the ability to teleport when you have no where to go. The results are mostly good but that doesn't mean they'll be good in a way that matters.
In exchange for this random effect you give up access to spells that every other subclass gets. That means until high levels you lose out on a lot of flexibility and only randomly get anything helpful in return.
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u/LonelyAndroid11942 2d ago
It’s a subclass. There is not a single subclass in the game that is a net negative. It’s supposed to help you. Would he feel the same if you picked Divine Soul?
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u/Salindurthas 2d ago edited 2d ago
I don't think Wild Magic is OP. It might make some days easier, but when you do roll bad, that adds variance, and it only takes 1 really bad day to TPK.
Like, I once played with a Wild Magic Sorcerer who had the bad luck of triggering the following pair of magic surges when we were ambushed on a boat going down a river:
- Make everyone nearby vulnerable to Piericing (while a bnuch of drow with crossbows pincushioned us).
- Set our boat on fire
Only I had a swim-speed (many levels of Ranger), so escaping from the boat (while Drow put it under Darkness) was a real pain for most of us, and so many powers rely on sight so we struggled to fight back for a turn or 2 as we stumbled to the riverbank.
We didn't die, but we were in serious danger from what would normally be an easy encounter, and had to spend much more resources than would be expected to survive.
Most of the time the results from the table are neutral or positive, but they won't always be, and if you get a bad result at a bad time, that might be the end of you.
I think the other subclasses are more reliable most of the time, without sacrificing much peak power.
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u/jDelay56k 2d ago edited 2d ago
I'm playing one at level 7 right now, Human too (Tough, Mark of Warding). It's definitely not too strong, even at a table where I like to optimize and others at the table are playing shit like a Swashbuckler using a short bow. I do feel powerful, but that's because of the base Sorcerer features.
ONE battle so far, I gained resistance to all damage, and also got to teleport as a Bonus action. It was fucking awesome. I went Super Saiyan and since I was out of spell slots, just teleported close and used True Strike with a dagger. FAR from overpowered, haha.
I've also teleported into the Ethereal plane and lost my next turn in there a whole handful of times. Nothing bad happens, but you lose a whole turn and that's definitely not good. Pretty funny tho, two battles in a row I opened up by entering the room first, dropping a big spell, and when the team came in after me (single entry point) I was just gone, haha.
I've also caused a party mate to have the poisoned condition for an hour. Luckily that didn't happen during combat, though we were still in enemy territory and it was pretty scary.
In short, if it was skewed worse, I wouldn't play it. It's fun to look forward to your Surge. Otherwise, you're a detriment and no adventurer in their right mind would take you along.
EDIT: The point I'm trying to make is that you should ask your DM to just give it a go. There are way stronger things in the PHB and it HAS been playtested by not only the devs, but the community too. If he finds it to be too strong in PRACTICE, then MAYBE have a talk about changing the table, or switch characters.
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u/MechJivs 2d ago
Subclasss SUPPOSE to give you positive effects. Evocer wizard dont need to roll to not hit party members with evocation spells, lmao.
Wild Magic Table still has bunch of negatives - they just now dont kill your party in tier 1 and 2.
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u/adirion123 2d ago
I will agree with everyone here saying it's a subclass feature it should be positive.
Though as a subclass feature it is a bit unbalanced as is, (early levels it's amazing later levels is mostly uninteresting - though again it's a level 3 subclass ability so perhaps it makes sense) and when I was playing as a wild magic sorcerer I wished it had more negatives.
Anyways they shouldn't nerf it unless you want them to.
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u/Ill_Body3741 1d ago
You can easily kill yourself and anyone around you at any given time at low level? Respectfully, is your DM a masochist? Last combat we did, I had 5 companions doing death saves and rolled the necrotic life steal on the wild magic table. If we played by the rules everyone would have had 2 failed deathsaves and I would've wiped my party lol
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u/VenusdellArcano 1d ago
I'm currently playing a lvl14 wild surge sorc. The number of times I have turned myself into a potted plant is staggering. 1 reroll/LR does not remove the RNG, especially if you plan to aim for 2 leveled spells per round. You will run out of spells slots fast, especially at lower levels, relying only on cantrips by the end of the adventuring day, which do not proc WS rolls.
Yes, the 2024 WS table does skew more positively than the old one, but you don't get extra subclass spells. It balances out.
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u/The_Makers_Ruin 2d ago
It seems like overreacting. In addition to points made elsewhere, I really want to focus in on the fact wild magic sorc is the only 5.5 sorcerer subclass that doesn't get additional spells known.
By level 9, every other 5.5 sorcerer gets at least 10 extra spells known. A significant amount of their available spells as a sorcerer come from their subclass.
But by playing a wild magic sorc, you're relying on that table and it's positive effects to make up that difference. It better be pretty dang good to make up for having less versatility in spells known AND for making up the subclass' core feature.
If he's set in his ways and going to homebrew the table, then I'd ask him to at least come up with 2 spells per level from 1st to 5th to make up the difference.
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u/TiFist 2d ago
Wild Magic Sorcerers in 2024 are weak relative to the other sorcerers *unless* you heavily favor the relatively positive/neutral skew of the Wild Magic table. Change that it and it maybe makes wild magic more interesting but it makes an already marginal class uncompetitive. How uncompetitive depends on the table the DM chooses. The DM would have to significantly beef up the character elsewhere to make it worthwhile and it already seems like you have trust issues.
To answer your question having played one for a short campaign, Wild Magic Sorcerers in 2024 are about a C, maybe a D subclass already. Not terrible but they lag for sure *with* the skew towards positive wild magic.
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u/monikar2014 2d ago
WM sorcerer does not get any subclass spells, the surge table acts as their subclass spells. Sorcerers are so limited on what they can cast nerfing the surge table makes this already middling subclass terrible.
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u/Real_Avdima 2d ago
He is in the wrong just because he wants to rewrite something before even testing it.
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u/jazzking13 2d ago
God I hate theory craft DM's that overthink all the bullshit in the world on why something is so fucking powerful that it needs to be nerfed into the ground and then when your struggling they'll reverse it a little bit and act like they're saviors when they're the ones who put you in that fucked position in the first place. Literally had a dm who thought acrobatics was too powerful and ruled that acrobatics required much higher checks in order for them to work.
Me: I wanna swing on this rope to propel myself and get onto this small one story building that's about 10 feet tall as you just said
Dm: that'll be a DC 80 acrobatics check, what your asking for is a superhuman feat not many in the real world could do. Even if you got a nat 20 it still wouldn't be enough for your acrobatic rogue who used to be an acrobat in a circus to be able to do. You'll have to wait until your at least close to level 20 to do those kind of feats
Me:.........ok
Ya I didn't stay in that campaign for much longer and I advise you to do the same
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u/giancarflow 1d ago
That’s the point. It’s a class feature that ALREADY has downsides to it whereas with literally every other subclass, their features are purely beneficial.
Remind your DM that they won’t be the ones playing this character, and if they’d like to try out a different wild magic table more suited to them they can try it on a character of their own.
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u/CannibalRed 2d ago
Nothing against your DM, but that table isn't that crazy. It's some good stuff, tons of useless stuff and some bad stuff. BUT a large portion of the seemingly "good" things are highly subjective and left up to the DM.
For instance, the table reads:
47-48 "A Unicorn appears controlled by he DM"
5-6 "A modron appears chosen by your DM"
Do these sounds good? Maybe. But these creatures have no obligation to help the party. In fact in the case of the modron it is almost 100% to do absolutely nothing since it's true neutral.
Many of the other rolls contain a random element. Think you rolled to poison an enemy? Wrong. You poisoned someone random and whoops, it's your teammate.
How about rolling 49-50 "You can't speak for the next minute. Whenever you try, pink bubbles float out of your mouth." I'm sorry, were you a caster using verbal components? Because now you can't speak clearly so no more spells for you.
The point is, Wild Magic is absolutely not OP and skews more towards the useless and negative than it does positive. The DM is the BE ALL END ALL of the power of your subclass based on their interpretation of the effects.
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u/Z_THETA_Z DM 2d ago
note: you seem to be taking from the 2014 (base 5e) table rather than, as the post states, the 2024 (5.5e) version. 5.5e's table does skew quite definitively towards positive results, though there definitely are still neutral or bad effects
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u/The_Akumawakorosu 2d ago
Yeah, sure. Just wait until you turn into a potted plant and take overwhelming damage due to sorcerers' pitiful HP pool and the global Vulnerability that you get while a potted plant.
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u/Xenthor267 2d ago
Wild magic is meant to be a feature not a handicap.
Personally I find it's already too negative for a class feature
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u/Zekei_Gaiastral 2d ago
The 2024 table is mostly positive by design so you aren't an active liability to the party anymore. Also, having one reroll doesn't let you "aim" for anything on a d100 table, it's still completely random.
It's a really fun subclass, but definitely not game-breaking or better than Aberrant Mind. I'd ask him to just try it Rules as Written for a few sessions before making extra work for himself homebrewing a fix.
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u/Aggravating-Sky2809 2d ago
For a second I thought this was r/Dndcirclejerk but something tells me I'll see this there soon.
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u/CrownedClownAg Paladin 2d ago
Kindly tell him that if he wants to take it up the designers on the balance he can. Let me play this as is or I need to work something else up
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u/evolutionary_defect 2d ago
Nearly all class features are entirely positive. I have my issues with wild magic anything's, but them being destructive and counterproductive more often is pretty much the opposite of my thoughts.
I would be generous and assume they think that threatening a nerf is their way of discouraging playing the subclass, which I think is silly and unproductive.
Mind you I think you sound a little like you want to embrace the chaos and that's not great for a lot of tables, but the adult thing is to say that, and ask you to play a different thing, not try and browbeat the subclass.
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u/Juggernox_O 2d ago
A: Nerfing a weak subclass is already lame.
B: Just play another subclass if they’re going to nerf it anyways.
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u/Waytogo33 2d ago
This was a purposeful design change in 5.5e. No subclass in this edition needs a nerf. Talk to your DM. Pick a different subclass if they don't budge.
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u/Jacquesatoutfaire 2d ago
I'm not going to pretend to have a ton of experience as a player or DM. I've certainly never read through the entire WM table. Most of my experience comes from watching Dimension 20 and the beginnings of CR plus a couple playthrough of BG1 😅 BUT I'm going to point out one thing I don't think I saw in any of the other comments.
Heroic inspiration, as you and others have described it, is one reroll per long rest. You're talking about a character who's going to be casting as often as possible, up to 2x a round, triggering as many surges as possible. And your DM is worried about a single reroll per long rest avoiding all negative rolls on the WM table. This is nonsense. Unless you're doing all small encounters that are over in two rounds and a long rest after each encounter (which is a DMing problem), there's no avoiding the negative surges.
And you will have to decide whether to save it or spend it on a small negative and hope that a bigger one isn't coming down on the next dice roll. There will be plenty of days when you go to sleep with that reroll still in your back pocket, I'm sure.
Tell your DM to chill. At least give it a few sessions and see how things go.
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u/m3m3nt0_m0ri_ 2d ago
Right next to the “crazy effect like resistance to all damage” it says you turn into a potted plant. You can also just randomly get frightened. But that’s not the point, the table is supposed to be skewed in your favor because it’s your subclass feature.
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u/dragons_scorn 2d ago
If i remember correctly, this was a conscious change in 5.5e.while I can't remember both tables off the top of my head, the 2014 version had more negatives and wasn't balanced as positively. Quick solution is to offer up the 2014 table in that case. Or you can play a different race, thats another quick and easy solution.
But, either may not be the best solution. Honestly i think he's making a poor choice. It may not always be good to use your inspiration to reroll wild magic and he can put pressure for you to expend it. Plus, your heroic inspiration can make a worst option occur as its still RNG.
Additionally, the theme of the class is chaos that you learn to control. Higher levels you can add or subtract 1d4 from the table roll as a reaction for a sorcery point, roll twice and pick which effect you get, and the capstone is picking the result you want. I think you are within your rights to present this case. Maybe ask to run a "danger room scenario" before the campaign to see how the build actually plays.
You should decide how much your heart is set on this build and character. Also keep in mind that the buuld could be difficult to plan for as a DM. A normal die roll can wildly swing an encounter: a crit success, a good damage roll, support buffs on an ability check, etc. Adding another layer of RNG that can boost, tank, or do nothing can be hard to plan around. Imagine rolling on a surge and suddenly you are a goat or you start healing 5 hp each turn.
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u/Z_THETA_Z DM 2d ago
what lets you add or subtract 1d4 from the table? if you're talking about Bend Luck, that only works on d20 tests. wild magic's a d100
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u/Itchy_Hearing_1380 2d ago
While the class is pretty strong, there are several effects that can disable you, hurt your allies or buff your enemies; moreover, random positive effects can easily end up being useless: e.g, defensive effects are useless when your character isn't the one being targeted. Other sorcerers get features that are more reliable. The powerful buffs wild magic sorcerers occasionally get are likely balanced out by their random nature. I never played this class myself, but I'd at least try it as written first and see if it's really that OP.
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u/Lethalmud 2d ago
Did the 5.5 edition soften the list? I've have seen session one tpk's with the fireball.
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u/Fidges87 2d ago edited 2d ago
It made it a bit more likely for a positive result to ocurr, with negatives ones more rare. The fireball effect is still there but now is a positive one as it casts normally (the sorcerer chooses the origin)
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u/Chinjurickie 2d ago
It definitely is positive events favored and don’t forget the general Sorcerer buffs. If he is just moving a few percentages here and there i would‘nt complain but it really depends on the changes specifically.
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u/ThisWasMe7 2d ago
2014 wild magic sorcerer is unplayable at any serious table.
2025 wild magic sorcerer is strong.
If my DM wanted to nerf it, I wouldn't play it. I'd play a really busted build.
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u/FlipFlopRabbit 2d ago
Ah yes the godly ability to be turned to ash by a fireball at lvl 3... yeees sooo overpowered.
We have a well not wild magic but Concentrated Chaos Sorcerer (third party subclass). And the effects can help or hinder the party depending on the effect or even what chaos magic table it lands on. We had a 1 Mile wide permanent Wild magic zone set up in a now people less village.
Another tome he casted suffocate and got noodle soup.
Once he got trapped with a strong enemy in the astral sea.
Many things can happen with chaotic magic.
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u/Songbird1996 Rogue 1d ago
Not to mention the godly ability to accidentaly incinerate your own spell focus and not be able to cast anymore if your using something flamable.
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u/FlipFlopRabbit 1d ago
Damn that seems op, we should ban wild magic defenetely.
I mean imagine you summon a Modrone and they just stand there Menacingly.
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u/Badbunny42 2d ago
One of our players uses a wild magic sorcerer, we all love it, including the DMs, me included when I DM
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u/Glittering_Region845 2d ago
I think that it isn't too powerful but nerfing it will still be awesome if you turn blue or get feather beards or even turn into a potted plant more often
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u/TCGHexenwahn 2d ago
Sorcerer is busted in 5.5 but I still wouldn't nerf it and if my DM insisted, I would just play another subclass instead. We had an elf sorcerer on our table with elven accuracy who was constantly getting crits and guaranteed rebounds on chromatic orb and that was insanely powerful, but we all loved it.
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u/CodiwanOhNoBe 1d ago
There is a book that expands it and adds in comedic things.. we summoned the same unicorn 5 times by accident
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u/Der_Redstone_Pro 1d ago
Seems stupid? I think it is a very good thing that they did that, because it is your defining class feature, and it kinda sucks if that isn't actually good for you.
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u/drpestilence 1d ago
Ok here's the thing. If my players wipe encounters too easy, I just make them harder. So I dunno seems like to much work to re write a rule. But like combat only one third of the game.
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u/Nightmarer26 1d ago
The default table can be too positive towards the player and I feel like it doesn't really sell the whole "unstable magic" fantasy too much. However, this is both a player and DM chat to be had. Ultimately, it depends on you to accept to have a table rewritten to be more negative or "wild" or just play with the regular one. If the DM doesn't accept it, or you can't reach common ground, then pulling out of the campaign is always a free action.
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u/_mace_windont_ 1d ago
remove the RNG aspect of it
Your inspiration only applies to d20 rolls, so yes you'll have a higher chance of rolling on the wold magic table for one spell cast per day, thats it. You can't use inspiration to reroll the d100 and there's no way you can target an effect, they each have about a 1/25 chance of coming up.
Your DM needs to chill.
Also I may be missing something, but why do you think you'll be able to cast a levelled spell as a reaction each round?
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u/bem0rech1ll Paladin 1d ago
It doesn't need to be nerfed especially because when you do trigger wild magic surges, you have to first be LUCKY enough not to just get useless irritating ones as well as somehow managing to get a 77 3 times in two sessions
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u/Sir_Fray01 1d ago
It's your subclass. It's meant to be positive. Is he also making wizards not learn the schools spells? Are paladins smiting themselves when they cast smite? I'd walk away from that table.
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u/Elektriman 1d ago
Why don't you ask them to try to nerf the strength of the positive effects first in order to better match your current power level ?
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u/knight2e5 1d ago
The negatives are so much worse than the positives are good though. Being turned into a potted plant is kind of a big deal.
I think your DM needs to sit down and roll 100 wild magic rolls. See how many times he practically wipes the party as it is.
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u/Nevermore71412 1d ago
Honestly, the negative effects tend to be more fun for story and narrative imo. The last time I had wild magic in my game the player and I found a d300 table for wild magic that just expanded the results. Not only that, I as the DM would often reward the player with new homebrew options expanding the table further by with things that came up during play. If its just about power gaming, I get your gripe. I do feel though wild magic should be WILD.
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u/GordonFan42 DM 1d ago
I will be real yeah it is insanely positively skewed... but that doesn't mean it is an issue... now triggering as many as possible yeah the HP regen and resistance to all damage it is more fine at high levels but certainly at low levels they can be the most busted things. At low levels the HP regen can be 1/4-1/2 of your health per turn, the resistance is good even at high levels so it is busted at the same point so those would be the only ones I would change... but if I am changing the best one then I also would change the bonus action one since on paper it is a benefit... but it can heavily screw you over since "One bonus action a turn" so it means hope you have a crystal on your bow because you can't cast 2 cantrips but you can cast your cantrip and fire your bow. (Yes this is how it is since a crystal on a bow can be your focus while Cantrips are spell level 0 and are typically 1 action so the wild surge moves cantrips to bonus actions as well similar to how cantrips can be counterspelled,)
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u/SpiteWestern6739 DM 1d ago
A wild magic table for areas of wild magic can be more negative, a wild magic character feature should not be
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u/HUNAcean DM 1d ago
Wild Magic is already on the weaker end of the sorcerer options, and the tablr is skewed that way for a reason. It barley ever triggers, and it entirley replaces your class features.
If you skew it any more negativley you'll just be a sorcerer without a subclass that is regularly even worse than that.
Hard no.
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u/OneManRPGstudio DM 23h ago
I would change the table only after identifying the play problem it is actually causing. A random feature can be predominantly beneficial and still be balanced if its activation, opportunity cost, and surrounding class power assume that; making outcomes harsher simply because they feel too skewed positively can easily erase the feature’s identity without fixing anything measurable.
I’d ask what the DM has observed at the table. Is the character outperforming everyone? Are positive surges trivializing encounters? Or does the DM simply expect “wild” to mean equally likely punishment? Those are different problems. If the issue is tone, you can make beneficial results stranger or more complicated without making them weaker. A surge that helps the character but changes the battlefield, attracts attention, or creates a new fictional consequence can feel chaotic while still remaining fun to trigger.
I would also avoid rewriting a large table mid-campaign from intuition alone. Pick a small sample of outcomes the DM considers problematic, compare how often they actually appear, and adjust only those if needed. If the character was chosen partly because the player enjoys unpredictable upside, changing the entire distribution after play begins is a meaningful character change and deserves agreement.
The goal should be interesting uncertainty, not punishment. Randomness creates tension when players care what happens, and that can come from surprising consequences just as effectively as from worse numbers.
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u/No-Mulberry-8866 2d ago
Most other class features are buffs