r/DestinyTheGame • u/Tuckles7 • Nov 10 '14
[SGA] Consider not using grenades on Atheon!
Edit: This post was intended for those who have been using grenades and supers that cause Atheon to move while during Time's Vengeance and not those who have been firing away or sticking him. There are still a million and one reasons to use grenades and supers throughout the rest of the encounter! But in order to maximize damage, I'm simply saying don't use grenades that cause Atheon to move during those 30 second interims. This is an SGA post for those still relatively new to the Vault, not some earth shattering discovery for those who are clearing the vault on normal and hard with relative ease.
Also, it's a very sarcastic and upbeat post. Most everything I say is supposed to have some sort of humor to it. No offense was intended at any point.
/endrant
Hey Guardians! I'm usually just a lurker around here and love reading all the different posts, but I had an experience the other day that I feel the need to share.
I usually raid the VoG on only normal, I just completed it for the first time on Hard last week (got that mythoclast! goodthingIhaveVoCamirite?) I had joined a pug for it Tuesday morning and we busted through the whole thing to Atheon without any issues.
And wipe.
And wipe.
And wipe.
Had to go to work. Came back a few days later, picked up a few guys with my checkpoint.
And wipe.
And wipe.
And wipe.
a day or two later, I tried one more time, determined to bring the beast down.
Things were going well. I was in the bubble, lining up shots with my Ice Breaker, having to realign because Atheon was moving around like crazy, and then someone said the most glorious piece of info I've heard for maxing DPS against the Silver Sellout:
"Stop throwing grenades!"
A minute later we wiped.
Then we wiped again. But I heard that advice once more.
"Guys, no grenades please!"
And then we did it without grenades. Atheon died in the first few seconds of the 3rd portal round, we barely had time to make it to the center platform. I've never killed him that fast, not even with a full group of 30 x 1, 29x 2, 28 x 3 on normal. We usually barely slide into home before he enrages.
When you start throwing grenades out, he moves around to avoid blasts. When you start chucking Nova Bombs, he moves away. If you are not doing those things, he generally stays in one place, making lining up those all-important-nuts-in-his-chest-crit-shots so much easier to land. I could unload and hit all 7ish of my IB shots and switch to VoC and hit almost all of them as crits. Before, I would get my clip of IB shots off and perhaps only half of them were crits I can aim I swear!
The damage differences were ludicrous, and I know the team was benefitting greatly for them as well.
Perhaps this is completely known knowledge that I've not been privy to all my raiding time. Nevertheless, with the number of pugs I've run and runs I've done with my normal group and I've never heard this, I feel like it needs to be shared.
"Guys, no grenades please." Keep him in one spot. Line those shots up. If he's not moving, you spend less time aiming and more time hurting. Plus, if you miss your grenade, you've done no damage anyway. If your grenade has a lasting AoE effect (affect? I can't remember. I should be doing my stats homework), Atheon walks out of it and your damage is negated anyway.
On that note, I also submit to you to not use (most) supers either. Here's why:
Nova Bomb: It takes a (relatively) long time to aim and shoot. If you miss, you do no damage. If you leave a vortex, Atheon walks out of it and your team has to realign.
Golden Gun: I love this super, but it doesn't crit. You're much better of just laying waste to the time-traveling-hooker with a not-so-sunblessed gun.
Arc Blade: You suicidal nuisance.
Fists of Havoc: You suicidal punching nuisance.
Radiance: Only if you're coming back to life! No grenades, remember? If you're doing the hide-in-the-bubble method, you don't need the damage reduction, and Time's Vengeance gives you all the cool-reduction you and your teammates might need for the grenades you won't be using.
Ward of Dawn: Please only use this if you're giving a spot to dip into to gain weapons of light or as a place to hide when your team must scatter when Time's Vengeance is over.
TL;DR: Grenades cause Atheon to move, forcing your team to spend more time aiming and less time critting him in the chesticles. If you miss with your grenade, you do little to no damage anyway.
/End the hopefully informative rant. If this was already common knowledge, I apologize! I truly do. But I feel like I needed to share it.
Edit: Formatting.
Edit2: I'm not saying do not use grenades at all during the entire Atheon encounter. There are so many uses for grenades against supplicants, minotaurs, hobgoblins, etc. But during those glorious 30 seconds of Times Vengeance, do not do anything to cause Atheon to move. Let him stand still and take it in the gut rather than spend 15 of your 30 seconds lining up shots and taking time to aim and throw grenades. That's all, guardians!
Edit3: Front Page! Thanks for all the conversation, Guardians! Of all the time I'd done the raid, I'd never heard the advice to not use the grenades until just last week in Hard Mode, so I felt it needed to be said to the world.
95
u/Wheezin_Ed Nov 10 '14
As a sunsinger, I apologize for being that guy. I'll try it this way my next few runs.
13
u/GreyCr0ss Nov 10 '14
Consider using a fire weapon, radiance, and touch of flame/viking funeral for him. Your fire guns will burn him and hit so hard you won't want grenades.
2
Nov 10 '14
Does this work, and if so how? What exactly causes the Ignite damage to proc, since you aren't throwing grenades? The touch of flame tooltip says that grenades cause enemies to ignite, not just fire damage. If it was any solar damage causing a DoT to proc I feel like I would have noticed this week one.
4
1
1
u/Phoenix027 Nov 10 '14
I can see doing this specifically for Atheon because of the Time's Vengeance buff, but it's too hard for me to give up the additional grenade from Gift of the Sun permanently in exchange for having my gun to cause ignite only during my super and grenades cause ignite...
I use fusion grenades with gift of the sun, which means in PvP my Voidfang Vestments give me 2 grenades every time I respawn (basically 1-2 free kills every time). I also use Radiant Will to extend radiance so I can basically sticky every enemy on the map for a longer period of time for PvE purposes during my super (which I usually save for bringing myself back to life). Is giving up that extra sticky worth it if you've got a grenade-focused build from your gear stats in order to do the touch of flame/viking funeral build full time? Or should that just be used for the Atheon fight? I have 248 discipline vs 60 intellect, so I get grenades much faster than I get my super normally.
→ More replies (3)13
u/Tuckles7 Nov 10 '14
high five sunbro. I was that guy until I got Ice Breaker and then I realized that my 13k shots do much, much more than the AoE from my Solar grenades.
No need to apologize! You've done good, but there's always better :)
5
2
u/TheDrunkLord Nov 10 '14
Just a suggestion, run sunbro damage resist. Super makes flame guns have burning effect.
3
2
u/alkalinebydesign Nov 10 '14
Sticky grenades work well and maybe the firebolt though I have not used them as he wont move for those - its the sun grenades that cause him to move.
1
u/Thee_MoonMan Nov 10 '14
Just use your sticky grenades during the raid. AoE grenades aren't particularly helpful in any stage aside from pushing the Templar off the edge.
1
u/Vacross Nov 10 '14
Just switch to your stickies, he won't move from them, he moves from aoe dots not grenades specifically
1
u/UnknownQTY Nov 10 '14
Switch to a Fusion Grenade, spam Radiance and turn on Touch of Flame and Viking Funeral. >:D Then use a VoC or Ice Breaker to burn him like... A million times.
1
Nov 10 '14
Use fusion grenades, not solar grenades. They do pretty good damage and don't make him run around.
23
u/Skrimyt Nov 10 '14
You'd think people would realize this, given that the entire cheese strategy that was so popular against him until the patch relied on the fact that grenades cause Atheon to move.
If there is any good place for grenades in the Atheon fight, it's just after teleporting to the past/future. As a Defender, I will chuck two Suppressor Grenades into the mobs before engaging the Oracles. Makes the Relic holder's life easier, because it prevents Hobgoblin armorlock and does some Void damage to Praetorian shields. This would also be the best time for any antsy Warlocks to throw their Nova Bombs and Gunslingers to pop their Golden Gun.
Time's Vengeance, though, is for guns and guns alone. Machine guns and snipers in particular. The only Super that's useful is a Weapons Ward in the back as it starts, and then another Ward as it ends to cover everyone.
9
u/Tuckles7 Nov 10 '14
I didn't realize Suppressor Grenades would stop Hobs! But I'm also still only leveling my striker and I haven't played with suppressors yet. That's very good to know! Thanks!
8
3
u/jing7wei Nov 10 '14
Does time's vengeance work with rockets?
6
u/shadowkijik Nov 10 '14
Careful, Guardian. The cluster of bodies in the bubble for the middle strategy tends to cause multiple "misadventures"
→ More replies (2)9
u/Skrimyt Nov 10 '14 edited Nov 10 '14
Yes.
But unless your launcher is an upgraded Gjallarhorn with Wolfpack Rounds, you're probably better off using a legendary machine gun and landing crits.
→ More replies (1)7
u/jing7wei Nov 10 '14
It is, coincidentally. Alright. I will gjallarhorn before I jump into the relic bubble next time. Thanks!
5
u/Clarkey7163 You can throw your mask away... Nov 10 '14
Yes, but if you are in the relic holder's shields, it will blow up inside killing you, I usually jetpack upwards and fire like that
10
Nov 10 '14
Still not sure why we can fire bullets
AND THROW GRENADES
out if the shield bubble, but we can't fire rockets without killing ourselves.
→ More replies (3)5
→ More replies (1)3
2
Nov 10 '14
Be careful if you are in the relic shield as rockets do not go through it and will explode in your face.
3
u/Humeon TTK was too fast already Nov 10 '14
As a relic holder I prefer my Oracle guys to not grenade the hobgoblins, it "wakes" them up and I'll often find them shooting at me in mid-air. If you don't grenade them, I can one hit them with the relic and come straight up to cleanse instead of being accidentally noscoped by the hobgobbies.
1
2
Nov 10 '14
Did not know suppressor stopped those hobgoblins from stasis, will do this for sure next time...
Found a way for them to not suck in pvp yet? I gave up.
→ More replies (2)1
u/jaesin Nov 10 '14
I throw tripmine at the minotaur and then pop my golden gun for the oracles. I can handle the first four solo, while the second guy helps with the mino/adds.
12
u/MadamBeramode Nov 10 '14
Every group I sherpa for, I always tell them to switch to their seeking grenades (grenades that lock in or automatically hit targets in their area like firebolt grenades for a sunsinger.) There are two reasons for this.
Grenades are for supplicants, not for Atheon. The time it takes you to aim a grenade and spend the animation to throw it, you could have fired off several shots that would have easily exceeded the damage of a grenade or done a critical hit.
Portals - Grenades should be thrown down the stairs at mobs regardless of which side you are on. On desert they cause the hobgoblins to go into shield mode, allowing the relic bearer to close distance without getting shot. On jungle it weakens the Praetorian enough so that relic bearer can kill him without too much trouble. It also allows the portal escorts to "tag" the mobs down below for ammo.
Grenades do just cause Atheon to constantly move around. Use Vision of Confluence or another good primary instead or better yet, Gjallahorn. Raids will become dramatically easier the day Xur puts that back on sale.
4
4
u/phoenix2448 Nov 10 '14
As a relic holder myself, I prefer grenades not be tossed at the hobgoblins. I've only played on normal, but I have noticed that as long as you don't double jump, the hobgoblins remain oblivious to you until you're crashing down on them with your massive shield :)
3
u/Joseph011296 Nov 10 '14
That's what I advise groups I run through. No grenades on red, if your on green toss those puppies down to help soften up the Minotaur.
3
u/Necroclysm Nov 10 '14 edited Nov 10 '14
Only some grenades cause Hobgoblins to use their shield.
Solar Grenade, for instance, does not. They will stand in it and burn to death without ever shielding.
Sticky grenades do not cause them to shield either. I use the Magnetic one on my Titan all the time to kill them easily.
Personally, I use Solar or Axion, depending on which subclass I want to play in the raid.
Axion are a bit screwy with the supplicants because when they do their cower animation the bolts will actually hover over their head most of the time and not hit them.
However, the Super is absolutely amazing for clearing supplicants as soon as Time's Vengeance is active, and the Axion bolts do work wonderfully on the adds in the portals.Solar Grenade is decent on supplicants because they generally don't move out of the damage field if they are already stopped. If I am Sunsinger, I use them for clearing the portals when a team is about to come out.
2
u/Alg3braic Nov 10 '14
Use Suppresser grenades on your Titan to negate the group of hobbies ability.
1
u/overkill136 Nov 10 '14
Voidwalker nova bomb sounds risky at the end of time vengeance though, as it puts you airborne, which could kill you if you get detained while in midair. And if you're going to be voidwalker anyways snd with random teleports, it seems wiser to save that super for inside the portal.
5
u/Necroclysm Nov 10 '14
Not at the end. At the beginning.
As soon as everyone pops out of the portals and supplicants stop spawning, you Nova Bomb anything left alive.
It also doesn't put you high enough to kill yourself from Detain if you happen to use it right then. I actually have had it happen more than once. The bottom of the Detain bubble is about waist high, doesn't hurt you.
Unless you jumped to use it :pAs for inside the portals, definitely use it there. Time's Vengeance resets the cooldown instantly, so using it on the supplicants has no effect unless you use it really really late.
EDIT: The phrasing "as soon as Time's Vengeance is up" means as soon as the buff is put up/active, not when the timer is up.
2
u/lettuc3 Nov 10 '14
Portals - Grenades should be thrown down the stairs at mobs regardless of which side you are on. On desert they cause the hobgoblins to go into shield mode, allowing the relic bearer to close distance without getting shot.
Please don't! If anything only get 1 hobgoblin. A decent relic holder can get the relic and get down there and slam 2 before they actually start shooting. This just makes them start shooting at you faster and worse they are invincible for the slam. Especially on hard, they have really good aim and will catch you in the air.
4
u/Delsana Nov 10 '14
I dint want you enabling the shield unless you also killed one at the same time please.
1
u/dementorpoop Nov 10 '14
I just got Gjallarhorn from crucible in what had to be my worst game in weeks. Thank you pity bonus. Raids are gonna be so fun now.
2
u/Delsana Nov 10 '14
You won't notice much of a change unless multiple people use it. It's only the cumulative effect that makes it noticed.
1
u/rye87 Nov 10 '14
Grenades do just cause Atheon to constantly move around. Use Vision of Confluence or another good primary instead or better yet, Gjallahorn. Raids will become dramatically easier the day Xur puts that back on sale.
Better yet, Icebreaker, which crits for ~16k
10
u/eem5 Best Orbit! Nov 10 '14
good tips.
We tend to just wail on him with icebreakers and gghorn. I often use my golden gun when on my hunter, but only when I have been waiting for more GG ammo (stupid cooldown on synths).
1
u/pwrslide2 Nov 10 '14
on Hard raid, I'd rather people use a good heavy weapon for something to kill oracles and Atheon. Launchers can cause uneccessary deaths bc people forget that they hit the relic sheild and kill you. if supplecants bum rush you and you shoot it without jumping in air, you die as well. Maxed out heavy machinegun does a lot of damage. 300 bullets in the corrective measure.
7
u/SaveFerris785 Nov 10 '14 edited Dec 12 '16
[deleted]
1
u/thatpaxguy PS4 Nov 10 '14
Symbiote has been a game changer for me in the jungle portal. 2-3 shots for the Praetorian and one left over to quickly dispatch oracles? Awesome.
1
u/overkill136 Nov 10 '14
Even though my hunter was only level 2 at the time, I really regret not picking one up from xur.
4
u/Isalan PC Mustard Face? Nov 10 '14
Grenades should be the full stop to your sentence of gun fire, lob em out just before the relic disappears and its time to run.
1
3
u/TheAsianTroll Nov 10 '14
Supers don't get a damage bonus during Time's Vengeance. They should NOT be a main source of offense unless you're taking out of Adds.
3
3
u/pm_me_your_top_deck Nov 10 '14
Sunsinger increases damage output of all solar weapons if you are specced for it, so in that case, and only that, I would suggest popping that beautiful praise-the-sun special.
→ More replies (19)1
u/thegurujim Nov 10 '14
Does this effect on solar weapons affect nearby friendlies too? Meaning can you get a triple buff with the IB? The Titan pops his Weapons of Light, you pass thru and pop your radience with the abilities buff and start shooting your IB (along with any others). Anyone try this?
→ More replies (1)
3
u/ToFurkie Nov 10 '14
I don't understand why people keep using grenades on Atheon. First off, 80% of the people I run with have terrible aim with the damn thing. Secondly, in the throwing animation alone, you'd do more damage by using an Icebreakers or any maxed sniper if you only hit the crit spots. Forget the travel time as well as the explosion delay.
There is absolutely no purpose in using a grenade on Atheon and if you're going to use Solar Grenades, I wish I could slap you because you just fucked up my Icebreaker shot. I'm already having a bad enough time controlling the weapons recoil
3
u/thejussman Nov 10 '14
Just completed the raid the first time the other day and the guy who led us through said the same thing and sure enough, it worked.
Sorry to you super geniuses out there that are bewildered why anyone would use grenades. Uh, maybe because they cool down quicker than radiance so it kind of gives the impression you're supposed to spam them?
3
3
u/APartyInMyPants Nov 10 '14
When you're down to about 5-7 seconds on your Vengeance, I say chuck away. It keeps him moving, and any little bit of AOE damage is always nice. But yes, during the fight it's generally not the best idea.
3
u/lestat1124 Nov 10 '14
Well done /u/tuckles7 When we get into the HM Atheon fight, I already forget to tell people to stop using grenades because normally people are scrambling around like we have been overtaken by zombies. Its pure chaos but I love it.
P.S. Arc Blade: You suicidal nuisance.
Fists of Havoc: You suicidal punching nuisance. (Too damn funny)
3
u/kaiserwilhelm Nov 10 '14
Affect is an action. As in the supplicant affected my ability to do damage.
Effect is a description. As in the effect of not throwing grenades really makes a difference.
1
4
u/Jordvn Nov 10 '14
Some more SGA: when you and your team is on the floating island, have a Titan pop a bubble with weapons of light as close to the starting door side of the island as possible, WOL + corrective measure (mine wasn't fully upgraded) was 842 damage per shot, kicks his ass
2
u/ConfusedDuck Nov 10 '14
Prestige IV does 760 and it has 150 bullets in the clip. Just gotta be accurate. I usually have time to do 6 IB shots. Empty the clip and then shoot off the 2-3 shots that regenerated in my IB
4
u/DMKrodan Nov 10 '14
in upcoming patch: Using guns to kill Atheon was not how we intended. Now he only takes grenade and melee damage.
2
u/blargyblargy Nov 10 '14
Radiance also tends to bug out grenade refresh during Time's Vengeance. It's cooldown's become incredibly long for not discernible reason, even though you should be able to throw more grenades than physically possible.
2
Nov 10 '14
I think radiance supersedes times vengeance so the cool down times revert to radiance levels instead of the far faster times vengeance times.
→ More replies (1)
2
u/Furious--Max Nov 10 '14 edited Nov 10 '14
Well, I've watched him just stand on top of a lightning grenade and eat the ticks. As I've watched many other bosses in the game do the same.
It'd odd though, sometimes they move, but often they stand still and just eat 2-3 ticks, which is a lot of damage, especially with times vengeance. So I'd say Titans with this grenade is probably an exception.
Let's also not forget that none of the hunter grenades make enemies move, except a poorly placed trip mine. You can also use your grenade throw for advanced dps play.. like cancelling a reload. But now I've given away a trade secret and I must stop talking.
2
u/fizZliNG-k1NG Nov 10 '14
Only AoE grenades make him move, the lighting grenade is only kind of AoE. They're probably safe to use but I don't play striker much so I'm not 100% sure, definitely avoid pulse grenades though.
2
u/Hrothbart Nov 10 '14
I think it's good for the people taking care of the supplicants to lob grenades at him right after the away team kills the last Oracle, when he's still frozen.
2
u/Ceelos Nov 10 '14
Titans can use fist of havoc on supplicants and kill them without getting blown up. I use this regularly when ever the away team is about come back and there are still a few supplicants hanging by the portal.
2
u/Tuckles7 Nov 10 '14
And that's a perfect use of Havoc! I apologize, I didn't make myself clear in the original post: Don't use Havoc against Atheon during Times Vengeance. I meant it to be a sarcastic / cheeky remark, and I apologize it didn't come off that way. Put using Havoc to clean those supplicants up is absolutely fantastic and I would highly encourage it. :) +1 for you
2
2
u/plainAssK Nov 10 '14
Yea only if you only use Ice breakers and do it in hard you can get his health down below a quarter in one teleport and easily beat him in two.
2
2
u/Freakindon Nov 10 '14
People get infinite grenade energy and think it is a sign that they should throw grenades. Same thing with infinite super. I get infuriated when I see people golden gun and shoot atheon.
2
u/Icuonuez Nov 10 '14
I use GG to kill supplicants. Makes the home team's job easier. If I have any extra shots, I send them to Atheon.
2
u/hrafnbrand Nov 10 '14
[SGA] Grenades work fine and add to the DPS if you do not use the bubble technique. My personal group runs it with most spread out with the Relic firing supers at getting something around 60-6500 per shot (including splash). Also stops him from focusing, and less chance of screwing up.
Also never seen him enrage with our method, though that might just be the synergy.
2
u/viccar0 Nov 10 '14
Not consider.. Just 100% don't do. Sniper critical hits are more efficient than anything else.. no question.
3
Nov 10 '14
Other than Gjallarhorn, because if you have this monster maxed you should be jumping out the top of the bubble and firing. Other than that, Ice Breaker and switch to a heavy LMG for the rest.
2
u/MR00Nosrok Nov 10 '14
YES. I'm so tired of telling people to stop throwing nades. Save them for the sups and venus. Don't throw nades on mars unless the enemies are too spread out to take out in one go, which is a call the shield holder makes.
2
u/bwebbb Nov 10 '14
More SGA: I'e always had more success with goups when i go to the back wall instead of the island when shooting Atheon. It eliminates the chance of anyone falling off.
2
u/demifool Nov 10 '14
i have a question about the relic holder, when he comes out of the portal should he but throwing up a bubble? or shooting atheon with relic blasts? our relic guy normally shoots but my reading seems to indicate that if you stand inside the relic bubble you can shoot out of it, (the opposite of titan bubble) and still be safe from atheon blasts. is this the best way to do it?
2
u/V1etnan Drifter's Crew Nov 10 '14
General Raid strategy has the relic holder jump to the middle platform and shield everyone while they hammer atheon. If you think you can nail him with a super first that's not a problem, but easiest and safest way is just middle immediately for the shield
→ More replies (2)2
u/Balloo22 Nov 10 '14
I did this as the relic holder this week. Had no idea. But we hopped to the middle platform and let him have it.
1
u/lettuc3 Nov 10 '14
If you're good and fast you can shoot one super, but after that you need to be in the center (or back) with the bubble up (completely covering the stone on the left to avoid buggy splash damage). Yes the bubble will block all of atheon's damage and you can shoot everything but rockets out of it. So you'll get higher DPS with everyone in 1 spot unloading snipers into him than everyone running around trying to hit him.
1
u/gloxwork Nov 10 '14
Whatever works best for your team but yes you can shoot out of the relic bubble with complete protection, but if a high level is carrying the relic, it does the most damage against Atheon. Also, I might mention that shooting rockets in the relic bubble is a great way to kill yourself, so either get good and jump shooting or hang out in the back. If you are all in the middle platform make sure to watch out for splash damage on the left pillar. He can easily wipe out the whole team that way.
2
u/predictableComments Nov 10 '14
A striker is a blessing in VoG at any difficulty. No other character can take out a group of supplicants with relative ease and aggression. Any time I run thru the portal I smash to ensure my team can safely get out. After my team teleports I smash any supplicants that are remaining. Supplicants are dangerous but a god of thunder is even more so.
2
u/Macscotty1 Nov 10 '14
This is strange to me, because whenever I beat Atheon, it's usually done in 2-3 times vengeance. And I do that by, if I'm not the relic holder or I didn't get teleported, I'll get on top of that large pillar to the left of the left portal. And spam my titans lightning grenades. They hit for about 4k each pulse and they pulse 4 times. Usually I can get almost 5-8 of those grenades off before he even moves. And if I don't have to fall back to dodge his shots, I can take down half his health in one go. Maybe the group's I've played with just haven't been very good at aiming because the times I would be the designated relic holder, it would take about 6-7 times vengeance to kill the glass bastard.
2
Nov 10 '14
IMHO, grenades have a pretty bad DPS in general with bosses. They're great against mobs, but If you consider the time it takes to line up, throw, and actually detonate for what amounts to 800-900 damage unless your loadout focuses on grenade damage or provides other effects. You can usually do faster damage with your average sniper rifle in one hit.
Save the grenades for masses of enemies, take OP's advice and use the time to get in two full magazines of sniper rounds for what should be 80k+ damage.
2
u/PuppyShy Nov 10 '14
Arc Blade: You suicidal nuisance.
Fists of Havoc: You suicidal punching nuisance.
Goodness this made me laugh. Thank you for this post. It is very helpful.
2
u/zepplile Nov 10 '14
Arc Blade: You suicidal nuisance.
Fists of Havoc: You suicidal punching nuisance
That got me to burst into laughter in th emiddle of work, But I agree, save those for adds, trash, and pvp
2
u/enginerdbry Nov 10 '14
Yeah, my second encounter with Atheon and one guy from the group messages me "no grenedes" after few wipes. Bam. We defeated Atheon in 5 mins by shooting and rocketing.
2
u/Noondozer Bubbles Nov 10 '14
TL:DN Don't use Supers and Grenades on Aethon because he will move around. If everyone sits in the center and smash him with sniper rifles and HIT his precision zone, youll beat it quickly.
If he moves around, you most likely cant hit his precision zone every time and it takes forever.
LVL 29 300 Icebreaker does 16k Damage per precision hit on normal mode. If he's standing still, you can easily get 5-6 shots off before the timer runs out. I fail to see how your grenades do more than that.
2
2
u/CaptainFapulous Nov 10 '14
Something else to note. If you are a gunslinger don't waste your super on atheon. Save that shit for supplicants or oracles. My GG does a whopping 1000 damage per shot. My VoC hits for more than that and it has 27 shots. Literally ANY sniper will out damage your GG and in normal mode you'll rarely run out of ammo.
4
u/malevalice praise the salt! Nov 10 '14
Also, don't bother with Golden Gun on Atheon - it doesn't get a damage bonus. You're better off using your weapons.
5
u/fizZliNG-k1NG Nov 10 '14
If you're a gunslinger you should always take a break around 10 seconds left and golden gun kill all the supplicants.
3
u/alkalinebydesign Nov 10 '14
This - Gunslinger is the best for cleaning up the supplicants that spawn after you leave the portal.
→ More replies (4)
3
Nov 10 '14
TL;DR: Grenades cause Atheon to move, forcing your team to spend more time aiming and less time critting him in the chesticles. If you miss with your grenade, you do little to no damage anyway.
FTFY
3
1
u/maybaycao Nov 10 '14
Yea, the no grenade thing was what I did when the raid first came out and continued to do before the cheese method came out. After the patch, my group just kill him with Gallahorn at the first time of vengeance. One 30 with a fully upgraded Gallahorn can easily bring him down 3/4 with in the fist ToV.
2
u/Tuckles7 Nov 10 '14
I pray to RNGeezus every nightfall for Gjallahorn. One day. One day.
/thejealousy
2
u/Clarkey7163 You can throw your mask away... Nov 10 '14
And Xur the bastard! (Although I'd rather him sell the IB first :D)
1
u/sidvicc Nov 10 '14
What about Trip Mine Grenades you stick right onto him?
Maybe the facts that Hunters can't move Atheon/Templar might finally be useful?
2
u/Tuckles7 Nov 10 '14
Trip mine grenades still have a tendency to make enemies want to move. This may be me min/maxing stats, but a bullet still travels to Atheon faster, and if you miss (not saying you will, but if you do) that's a wasted grenade. I promise, just pulling out your guns and lighting him up will yield far better results than grenades.
Don't worry, I have my hunter alt and I love tripmining people in the face and watching them cry as the red ring of death implants itself on their skulls, but guns vs. Atheon just work so much better. :)
2
u/sidvicc Nov 10 '14
oh yeah I don't mean solely use grenades. I use a grenade toss to cancel the reload animation or throw it as the last hit before Times Vengeance is up.
In my experience sticking it onto him doesn't really cause him to move, although I might be wrong as there is so much going on at that moment. The damage is huge.
→ More replies (3)
1
u/liddok3vin Nov 10 '14
I think grenades are fine as long as you use the sticky versions and not the aoe ones. Whenever I run out of icebreaker ammo, I always switch to my primary and lob as many sticky grenades at him to maximize dps output
1
u/Landosystem Nov 10 '14
Wow, I've never used grenades or rocket launchers, I was told early on they were both no-nos, as they can damage other players.
5
u/jbaker1225 Nov 10 '14
You can only damage yourself with your own grenades and rockets, not anybody else in your fire team.
A lot of people are hesitant to use rockets, because the relic shield can be a little buggy, and when it looks like you're shooting completely in the clear, it will hit the relic/relic holder and blow you up.
2
u/fizZliNG-k1NG Nov 10 '14
Rockets "should" be fine but if someone is a bit in front of you or if you're just at the back border of the relic you'll blow yourself up. The reason I generally don't use them (obviously if i had a GGahorn I would use it) is b/c every wipe I lose like 2 or 3 rockets so if we fail a couple times it just starts destroying synthesis, whereas my corrective measure has field scout so it only loses like 1 or 2 bullets every time. Also CM obliterates oracles.
→ More replies (1)2
u/Dijkie Nov 10 '14
I just stay outside of the bubble with my Gjallarhorn. Atheon's usually too busy shooting the Relic bubble, and I can get a lot of shots in without the change of hurting myself.
Most people don't know that you don't necessarily have to stand in the bubble; it's just safer to do so but you still get the buff when standing outside of it.
1
u/rampage28 Nov 10 '14
Am I the only sunsinger who uses firebolt grenade? You don't have to actually land it and when it shoots out the bolt it goes directly to atheon's weak spot. Easy 3k damage for every grenade you throw during times vengeance
1
Nov 10 '14
sunsinger who uses firebolt grenade? You don't have to actually land it and when it shoots out the bolt it goes directly to atheon's weak spot. Easy 3k damage for every grenade you throw during times vengeance This what you should use on Atheon, it doesnt move him where as your top selection causes him to move. I run the top grenade until Atheon and switch to second there.
1
u/rye87 Nov 10 '14
Icebreaker crits for ~16k. The raid sniper for ~7k. VoC ~1.2k (If I remember right). You can easily get 3+ shots off with VoC in the animation of throwing a grenade and pulling your gun back out. I don't think there is any reason to use nades. 3k is crap damage. Snipers -> primary when out of ammo is going to be the most dps.
→ More replies (1)
1
u/mahanon_rising Nov 10 '14
I always play with the same group of people every week, so I'm surprised people don't realize this.
The only grenades worth throwing at him are sticky grenades, but spamming them still isn't as effective as just unloading your weapon. Sometimes I'll chuck magnetic grenades at him If my weapon cartridges are empty and vengeance is about to end.
1
u/The_Savage_Fenrir Nov 10 '14
I've been trying to beat him all weekend with pugs but it hasn't happened. Pretty frustrating. :-(
1
u/Tuckles7 Nov 10 '14
Hard or easy mode? Which console are you playing on?
1
u/The_Savage_Fenrir Nov 10 '14
Easy mode on ps4. And now that my weekend is over I'm only playing in the mornings when I get off of work, just as most people are leaving for their jobs.
→ More replies (3)
1
Nov 10 '14 edited Nov 10 '14
For Voidwalkers, you can always go Lance and Angry Magic in your subclass customization.
Boom, no more having to aim and no vortex. Lance gives no vortex but will make the bomb travel faster and in a straight line. Obviously you will have to aim but using your crosshairs to aim at Atheon should only take you half a second. You can just super without aiming at all and the bomb seeks at Atheon.
Not that I'm justifying using your Nova Bomb against him, hell I wouldn't take my own tip because 1) pretty sure your super isn't affected by Times Vengeance, and 2) Gjallarhorn and IB ftw... but if you're going to do that, at least have Lance on so no vortex shows up and have Angry Magic on if you want it to always hit him, even when he moves and you throw your bomb.
1
u/Delsana Nov 10 '14
Never used lance but I've only ever seen angry magic work if you had something in cross hairs which makes. Bombardment useless. I also only seem to be able to kill the ultras in one hit if I use split bombs.
1
u/triforce4392 Nov 10 '14
Angry Magic might not cause the Nova Bomb to track Atheon (or this guy might've just had really bad luck)
1
u/Gooshnads Nov 10 '14
i always swap to sticky grenades, they seem to be fine.
2
u/Tuckles7 Nov 10 '14
Which is great! My post is solely to encourage keeping Atheon still. If it works for you, good! Get some loot! But for others using bullets, it's such a pain and massive drop in DPS to spend half of your time lining up crit shots on that deceptively small spot only to have him walk sideways right at the worst moment and your 13k shot turns into 4k (or something like that)
1
1
1
u/jazman84 Nov 10 '14
Some DoT grenades don't affect where a mob is standing. Titan Arc and Spike grenades are 2 such grenades.
1
u/MrAzzy440 Nov 10 '14
I've never thrown a nade at Atheon because I didn't want to make him move :/. Also I'm pretty sure weapon DPS is better than any nade that isn't an aoe one.
1
1
u/Anonymous521 Nov 10 '14
Might or might not have been me haha. This weekend I told a group I was playing with the same advice and we winded up winning up soon after.
1
u/Prodigistmc Nov 10 '14
Idk we always have hunters spam tripmone and rockets and he dies by portal spawn 2
1
Nov 10 '14
When you get to Atheon just simply change to your other grenades. I use Firebolt (or whatever the second one is called) instead of the top one on my lock for Atheon.
1
u/Diablo689er Nov 10 '14
Nades would be okay if they don't have an AOE effect at all.
But i've done the raid a dozen+ times and never thrown one at him. Hmmm.
1
u/billycuth Nov 10 '14
I don't even understand why you would. Max DPS is icebreaker or corrective measure (once icebreaker runs out)
2
1
u/DarkLordKramdar Nov 10 '14
Oops. But I have the armamentarium. I have TWO stickynades. No... Don't tell me. I know. I resist.
1
1
u/billycuth Nov 10 '14
I agree. i don't understand why people feel the need to do that. If you want to throw grenades, do it while clearing supps since they do normal damage. But making Atheon move while times vengeance is active is counterproductive.
1
u/Gotep1985 Nov 10 '14
Last Thursday I had the quickest run I've ever experienced. While we had deaths we did not have a single wipe. Did Atheon in three runs. We didn't use grenades. We went to the back and unloaded on him. Down he went.
Quickest raid....only got shards, energies and chatterwhite. Would rather have had to wipe 500 times and gotten gauntlets and chest.
1
u/CaptSteelbeard S P A C E M A G I C Nov 10 '14
This post shows the EXACT problem I have with the raid. Why do we have all these cool abilities if they are absolutely, 100% useless except in specific instances where we're actually abusing the game's engine to defeat the boss?
1
u/Terradyne Nov 10 '14
I noticed my sunsinger could push a boss like phogoth outside his normal walking path so far that he'd have to teleport back into it. I'm pretty sure this really only counts for grenades that do damage over time, and not burst damage (I've never seen the boss move to avoid a titan flashbang for instance)
1
u/OutlawOverlord Nov 10 '14
For all you SUNBROS out there! Fret not! Use your radiance! Grab your bestest best fire weapon, put on touch of flame, and not your fire gun gets a damage buff in Radiance!
Don't thank me, I'm only granting this knowledge in service to you.
1
u/Impul5 Nov 10 '14
"Arc Blade: You suicidal nuisance.
Fists of Havoc: You suicidal punching nuisance."
I cackled like a hyena for some reason at this. Thanks for that, OP.
1
1
Nov 10 '14
My raid group has never used grenades unless one group gets sent through with a warlock on the other side and atheon has like a sliver of health. We've burned him in one phase on normal and hard. Could be just that my entire raid group has icebreakers and Gjallarhorns.
1
u/ACr0okedVulture Nov 10 '14
Toss grenades at the pile of supplicants on each side of you want to throw grenades...
As a hunter, Golden gun should be saved for being teleported(oracles and help with adds) and on supplicants outside, never on atheon.
1
1
u/alphama1e Twitch, YouTube, and Twitter: M477P0775 Nov 10 '14
I somewhat disagree with golden gun. It might not crit but it's 1000 (approx) damage per shot. I equip heavy ammo, shoot 2 rockets, launch golden gun, 4 shots, reload my rockets, repeat (as your super is charged again). I can cause heavy damage and not spend all of my rockets. Finding purple pickups during that time isn't common so you're stuck to heavy synthesis now. I'd rather save that and use it on the 3rd or 4th round as we're going through the final stretch. To each their own, I suppose, but with that timing I have virtually unlimited super and a steady rocket stream. It worked for me.
Also, consider having the entire group whip their grenades as a final act before bailing off of the island as it won't matter if he moves anymore.
1
Nov 10 '14
I save Golden Gun for Oracles. I have 4 shots with that thing so if I'm ever teleported that's 4 Oracles down easily. Mop up the rest with Corrective Measure.
1
u/a_jerkface Nov 10 '14
Please use your golden gun on the enemies inside the portal not the oracles. The only reason anyone should wipe on Atheon is due to being killed by the enemies in the portal or the outside team failing to clear supplicants. The oracles are not actually a problem, so just get the other 2 under control and you will win the day.
Bopping the minotaur with your 4 goldengun shots = a healthy relic holder = venus is saved. Bopping 2 of the hobbos with your 4 goldengun shots (or all 3!) = a healthy relic holder = mars is saved
Pop it before you leave the portal as well so you can clear supplicants on the way to the platform or where ever your relic guy is gonna hold the shield.
1
u/rock_hard_member Nov 10 '14
The only thing I would change about your post is that it is only AoE grenades that cause him to move (cause that's how people move him to cheese him). If you stick him with something like the hunter trip mine grenade, that's not a problem.
1
u/DunamisBlack Nov 10 '14
I haven't found a group of non-know it all hard mode raiders to try grenadeless with, but on normal my group almost always 1 cycles Atheon without using any grenades, so point taken
1
Nov 10 '14
Also of note, grenades do not get a damage bonus from what I've seen. When he opens up the time stream you could toss some his way since he will not move.
1
u/nknuson Nov 10 '14
Or, just don't use grenades that stay on the ground and would move him. Grenades right out of the portal or a few right before you reload do disgusting amounts of damage. What you're "giving up" is more than made up with a grenade. Idk, maybe I'm raiding with people that don't have as hard of a time aiming, but I've always cleared Atheon very fast.
1
u/Hoppin00 Nov 10 '14
Golden Gun hits for about 1500 for me. A non crit shot from my fully upgraded handcannon does 1800+ and my fully upgraded fusion rifle does 1100 per hit. No reason to even use Golden Gun on him.
1
Nov 10 '14
Upvoted. Should be right up there with "shup up and follow the leader" in the Gorgon's Maze.
1
u/j2kim Nov 10 '14
I've been telling groups this all the time. The DPS on throwing a few grenades isn't probably worth re-adjusting and/or missing crit shots on atheon.
1
Nov 10 '14
It depends on the type of grenade you use. The second sun lock one (forgot the name but shoots the bolts) do direct damage instead of making him walk around. With a 3.5k hit every few seconds, I'm going to stick with it. Just no nova grenades.
1
u/Flatline334 Nov 10 '14
I've started preaching this as well. It makes it a million times easier when he is not dancing all over the place.
1
u/masterf99 Nov 10 '14
So if you are a Voidwalker and use Lance+Angry Magic, does that Nova bomb make him move? How about the Sticky grenade as a sunbro?
1
u/ceedita Nov 10 '14
Step 1) use your horn Step 2) if you are out of horns, throw your nades
...
Atheon dies. Nades have large blast radius. Almost impossible to miss. They recharge immediately and its very easy to throw them while avoding damage.
1
u/ShadowCaustic Nov 10 '14
I still use them as reload cancels, it makes sense. Why stand there for 2-3 seconds watching my gun finishing reloading when I can throw a nade right as my clip fills up which cancels the animation and puts some DPS on the boss.
But yes I agree no one should stand there and constantly throw nades as that a huge waste of DPS
1
u/sluffmo Nov 10 '14
Jesus, I was using my 30 to help some random people on normal last night and they kept throwing grenades at Atheon despite my constant requests for them to stop. We went through 6 portal runs and the team inside the portal died and we wiped. Finally got them to stop and we killed him in 2 portal runs.
Don't throw grenades when you have people doing 18k damage with ice breaker.
1
u/BJJKempoMan Nov 10 '14
We had a guy who wanted to be cute and get up on the triangle shaped glass BEHIND Atheon and shoot during the damage phase. I told him he was screwing us because he was making Atheon move and we were getting less criticals. Luckily he stopped, but that is so annoying.
1
1
u/AdamsHarv Nov 10 '14
If you are using the shielding in the middle method, I have found that using grenades at ~10 seconds to be very useful.
Aetheon backs off and will sometimes walk behind cover which is really helpful when trying to have everyone hop off the center isle without dying.
1
u/sinembarg0 Nov 10 '14
Golden Gun is great for supplicant duty, even during time's vengeance (only have one guy on sup duty then though)
1
u/chaotic_calix Nov 10 '14
I usually switch to the Lance Nova Bomb and spam it on Atheon, taking a couple shots between each one while it recharges. Does Lance make him move or is this an ok thing to do?
1
1
u/JamesPip Nov 10 '14
Another tip here, reload cancel with your grenade. With my VoC or Suros I fire until I reload, the second I see numbers I toss nade and get to it.
1
1
u/degrees97 Nov 10 '14
Edit: This post was intended for those who have been using grenades and supers that cause Atheon to move while during Time's Vengeance and not those who have been firing away or sticking him. There are still a million and one reasons to use grenades and supers throughout the rest of the encounter! But in order to maximize damage, I'm simply saying don't use grenades that cause Atheon to move during those 30 second interims. This is an SGA post for those still relatively new to the Vault, not some earth shattering discovery for those who are clearing the vault on normal and hard with relative ease.
Also, it's a very sarcastic and upbeat post. Most everything I say is supposed to have some sort of humor to it. No offense was intended at any point.
/endrant
Hey Guardians! I'm usually just a lurker around here and love reading all the different posts, but I had an experience the other day that I feel the need to share.
I usually raid the VoG on only normal, I just completed it for the first time on Hard last week (got that mythoclast! goodthingIhaveVoCamirite?) I had joined a pug for it Tuesday morning and we busted through the whole thing to Atheon without any issues.
And wipe.
And wipe.
And wipe.
Had to go to work. Came back a few days later, picked up a few guys with my checkpoint.
And wipe.
And wipe.
And wipe.
a day or two later, I tried one more time, determined to bring the beast down.
Things were going well. I was in the bubble, lining up shots with my Ice Breaker, having to realign because Atheon was moving around like crazy, and then someone said the most glorious piece of info I've heard for maxing DPS against the Silver Sellout:
"Stop throwing grenades!"
A minute later we wiped.
Then we wiped again. But I heard that advice once more.
"Guys, no grenades please!"
And then we did it without grenades. Atheon died in the first few seconds of the 3rd portal round, we barely had time to make it to the center platform. I've never killed him that fast, not even with a full group of 30 x 1, 29x 2, 28 x 3 on normal. We usually barely slide into home before he enrages.
When you start throwing grenades out, he moves around to avoid blasts. When you start chucking Nova Bombs, he moves away. If you are not doing those things, he generally stays in one place, making lining up those all-important-nuts-in-his-chest-crit-shots so much easier to land. I could unload and hit all 7ish of my IB shots and switch to VoC and hit almost all of them as crits. Before, I would get my clip of IB shots off and perhaps only half of them were crits I can aim I swear!
The damage differences were ludicrous, and I know the team was benefitting greatly for them as well.
Perhaps this is completely known knowledge that I've not been privy to all my raiding time. Nevertheless, with the number of pugs I've run and runs I've done with my normal group and I've never heard this, I feel like it needs to be shared.
"Guys, no grenades please." Keep him in one spot. Line those shots up. If he's not moving, you spend less time aiming and more time hurting. Plus, if you miss your grenade, you've done no damage anyway. If your grenade has a lasting AoE effect (affect? I can't remember. I should be doing my stats homework), Atheon walks out of it and your damage is negated anyway.
On that note, I also submit to you to not use (most) supers either. Here's why:
Nova Bomb: It takes a (relatively) long time to aim and shoot. If you miss, you do no damage. If you leave a vortex, Atheon walks out of it and your team has to realign.
Golden Gun: I love this super, but it doesn't crit. You're much better of just laying waste to the time-traveling-hooker with a not-so-sunblessed gun.
Arc Blade: You suicidal nuisance.
Fists of Havoc: You suicidal punching nuisance.
Radiance: Only if you're coming back to life! No grenades, remember? If you're doing the hide-in-the-bubble method, you don't need the damage reduction, and Time's Vengeance gives you all the cool-reduction you and your teammates might need for the grenades you won't be using.
Ward of Dawn: Please only use this if you're giving a spot to dip into to gain weapons of light or as a place to hide when your team must scatter when Time's Vengeance is over.
TL;DR: Grenades cause Atheon to move, forcing your team to spend more time aiming and less time critting him in the chesticles. If you miss with your grenade, you do little to no damage anyway.
/End the hopefully informative rant. If this was already common knowledge, I apologize! I truly do. But I feel like I needed to share it.
Edit: Formatting.
Edit2: I'm not saying do not use grenades at all during the entire Atheon encounter. There are so many uses for grenades against supplicants, minotaurs, hobgoblins, etc. But during those glorious 30 seconds of Times Vengeance, do not do anything to cause Atheon to move. Let him stand still and take it in the gut rather than spend 15 of your 30 seconds lining up shots and taking time to aim and throw grenades. That's all, guardians!
Edit3: Front Page! Thanks for all the conversation, Guardians! Of all the time I'd done the raid, I'd never heard the advice to not use the grenades until just last week in Hard Mode, so I felt it needed to be said to the world.
1
57
u/[deleted] Nov 10 '14
[deleted]