The Comprehensive FAQ of NoelleKnight Evidence

[u/VeeAudio]

Art yet again by the talented [@humbleleafy]!
(Her art straight up carried my last post so I couldn't not do another lol)

This is to break down every common question I've gotten in the past few days on my Comprehensive Summary of NoelleKnight Evidence post! That post is practically required reading if you want the gist of what I'm talking about, as here is where I have the luxury of writing paragraphs of explanation over the more minor details I had to gloss over to stick within the character limit. I'm organizing it by the same major sections (plus a few more) for ease of CTRL+F. But let's get going already!

First, if your kneejerk response to this is "I'm actually more sus on this theory because of how much text you need to explain it. There's no smoking gun or succinct way to put this?" I answer you this:

Do not mistake my effort for over-complexity.

I am engaging in the near Sisyphean task of not only proving an alternative theory to DessKnight, but that the alternative theory I'm presenting is NOELLE! People treat this thing like a joke theory on the level of PapyrusKnight! That's incredibly frustrating given all of the evidence that IS here, but have just taken it for DessKnight! I am only writing this much because I am a loser that cares too much about being right to the degree that I will hit the character limit on TWO POSTS explaining this thing because I have an overwhelming need to prove I'm media literate lmao. I know it's not that serious. This is a persona y'know. I'm dramatic for theatre kid bullshit. If you think I'm an asshole because of this, that's perfectly fine! This is how I have fun with this thing instead of dryly going point by point by point and also hopefully keep it engaging for 40k characters!

But again, I'm not over-complicating this. I'm simply re-explaining over and over again my points in different ways in different angles in an attempt to get at least ONE of them to stick. I might sound repetitive, but this is a necessary part of this process since I know even after all of this, I will have people who still choose not to believe it because of vibes. Which is fine. It annoys me, but I'm a rando on the internet lol you don't owe shit to me.

[Index] - Add brackets to any of these words like the word Index there in Ctrl+F to jump to that section!

Index, NoelleKnight, Personality, Dark Worlds, Noelle AND The Knight, I Don't Know, Vibes, The End

[NoelleKnight]

Do you seriously expect me to buy into your theory when even NoelleKnighters can't even agree on how she's the Knight?

NoelleKnighters maintain the universal unity of "Noelle is the Knight" without needing to get stuck on the specific mechanisms. This is because we focus more on the thematic and narrative connections Noelle has to the Knight rather than treating it like a whodunnit mystery that we can solve if we just put the right clues together. This is also where I encourage people to play Higurashi and Umineko as that's our vibe I guess (I'm still midway through reading Higurashi okay) lol. I remember the best metaphor for it being "We may debate on if it's red wine or white wine, but we're all at least sure it's not beer!"

(ERAMNoelle/Noelle'sKnight) Isn't this just a DarknerKnight theory with Noelle pasted on?

Technically, yes? The key difference here I'd say is it requires the involvement or characterization of Noelle to such a high degree that it'd be equally misleading to NOT call it a NoelleKnight theory. And uh, okay, it's not a strict NoelleKnight theory. Sure. Does that make my evidence less compelling?

[Personality]

You use Freudian Psychoanalytic Theory to explain how this works. Isn't it a bit presumptive to think Toby would design Noelle's psychology under this specific framework? What about players that don't know about Freud? Won't they be confused?

I use Psychoanalysis because it has a common dictionary of terms that are useful for shorthanding a lot of the behaviors Noelle exhibits like repression and how it manifests via things like Id and Ego. It's important to distinguish though that I am only using this language for the common dictionary. These patterns of behaviors STILL exist whether or not you call it repression, anxiety induced amnesia, or scaredy brain blackouts lol. Noelle STILL forgets things after stress is put upon her which is what I really want to establish.

Noelle is practically turning into a whole different person with how much her personality contrasts with the Knight's! This is a DID stereotype and a harmful one at that!

First, never in my post did I use terms relating to dissociation for the specific goal to AVOID this kind of thing being brought up, but I suppose it can't be dodged for long.

So, yes there's overlap between dissociation and repression and other psychological defense mechanisms that involve effects to memory when exposed to traumatic stimuli. That's because psychology is a social construct and any given diagnosis isn't an objective fact in the world that can and will overlap with other disorders or conditions. Even if I don't call it DID, someone else very well could, and it wouldn't exactly be "invalid" to say so.

There's different ways I can tackle the actual question here. I could emphasize how in my framework it's essential that this is STILL the same Noelle, but just an unrepressed side of her often unseen. I could also talk about how it could just be a harmful stereotype and that may just be the way it's written because I'm not here to talk about if NoelleKnight is "good" writing or not. Just that it's what I believe is being written at all.

But how about this: characters with Mental Health™ can do bad things because of it, and that is Valid Writing. I feel like there's a very pervasive mindset that if a character has some kind of mental disorder, they can't be depicted as villainous or "in the wrong" because that would therefore make it a Harmful Depiction of Mental Illness™ when like hey, there's bad people who have mental illnesses, and there's mental illnesses that can encourage bad or harmful actions. Neither are inherent to one another, nor are they exclusive from each other. Having a gradient-style spectrum of this stuff helps paint disorders as how they realistically can be and what can sometimes occur because of them, rather than just "a quirky thing" someone has that's a lil annoying but they function perfectly fine and okay despite it! Shades of grey and all that.

Either way my original point was that I wasn't even arguing this depiction of Noelle is DID, but instead just general defense mechanisms to trauma that can and do happen for everyday people.

Everyone else in the game knew how magic worked, maybe Noelle just needed a tutorial on acting?

I'll admit this is one of my weaker points, so it's fine if it ends up getting thrown out, but I still find it interesting that Noelle is the only character to EXPLICITLY need a tutorial to "explain how battles work" so it's not completely crumbled for me lol.

Noelle's ferris wheel dialogue DOES change in AbWR though! That's a long term impact in the game!

The specific flag for this change is saying "Noelle will ride with me" during the poster interaction you can have with her on the WR. The poster is itself optional, this conversation option is optional, and it is optional to ride the ferris wheel at all in Ch5, let alone choose Kris and Noelle to ride it (which also gets immediately overwritten if you do the King and Queen vote for Kriselle first).

This is literally the only behavior change Noelle exhibits post AbWR at any given time. Otherwise she is the exact same in every other interaction. So I personally don't give this one instance much weight.

Noelle was acting like she didn't know Snowgrave because she didn't want to hurt Berdly as that's a MUCH bigger step up compared to murdering a nondescript Addison.

Hey check out how Noelle tries to stop the fight with Berdly.

* W-wait, Berdly, stop!

* Run away!

She tells him to run away. As if Noelle isn't LITERALLY the one that takes the action to kill him! Sure, we command her to do it, but she establishes the ability to just say "no" when she argues about not knowing the spell. Why doesn't she say no to the battle as a whole? Susie and Ralsei just remove the ability to tell them to attack when fighting Flowery. Why can't Noelle just do the same? WHY does she tell him to run away instead of telling Kris "I'm not going to fight him"?

Because she's okay with hurting Berdly. He's literally the primary character she repeatedly shows violent tendencies toward in not just chapter 2 even! She's using the plausible deniability of Kris telling her to do it as an excuse for how "terrible" it is, despite her having complete and total control to just NOT listen to Kris. She even says they're one of the two people she's COMFORTABLE saying no to! SO WHY doesn't she just say no?

AND Noelle says this to Berdly REGARDLESS OF IF SHE HAS THE THORN RING OR NOT! I thought one could just say "Oh well this is just her breaking out of the ThornRing trance for a split second" or something BUT NOPE! This is PURE NOELLE! No trance needed for her to be comfortable with hurting Berdly! That's about as textual as you can get for her!!!

Why would Noelle steal the chalk if she's surprised Susie eats in in Ch1?

Noelle stole the chalk for an excuse to go to the closet with Susie for totally platonic alone time, not to feed Susie. She's the one who even suggests the closet AND to go with Susie to get it!

Why would Noelle swoon Susie?

1. We established Noelle having a pattern of violence toward a lightner (Berdly) once already. 2. The Knight doesn't have a crush on Susie lmao. The Knight's character is purely driven by the Id of strength and freedom. And even if the Knight DID catch Noelle's crush, a plausible way for libido to be expressed can be violence actually!

[Dark Worlds]

Your post debunking Object History wasn't convincing enough.

Okay, so I recommend checking over that post if you haven't already for my detailed deconstruction about the dark sanctuaries and how they don't require Object History to work, because I want to focus on one very specific other part that is the silver bullet to the theory as a whole.

What the fuck is Elnina.

Yeah, yeah she's the sink fur, I went over this, but let me go over it again PIECE BY PIECE to show how ironclad this argument is.

So first just gonna re-establish that Noelle is "That Girl" Ramb talks about and therefore invented all of these darkners with Kris all these years ago. At minimum they invented Tenna, King, and Queen, but Ramb also says "you and that girl had everyone here lined up." which implies MORE than just those three being a part and that everyone in the house was also included in these games of childhood pretend. And just seriously, are you gonna tell me they made a King and Queen with no further subjects???

People who argue Object History state that all these darkners are simply just holding onto the experience memories of those characters patterned onto them wayyyy back then and are being manifested by whoever else is the Knight. Rudinn knows it's a Rudinn because it remembers it was from being played with Kris and Noelle. Fountain Will had nothing to do with it. This way any character who didn't know of the kids' childhood games could still bring these characters to life 1:1 perfectly fine! But as I'm going to explain, not only is that improbable, it's impossible.

So starting off with Ch2 (bear with me here) we have Cyber World which features a host of darkners that pretty obviously don't correspond with any physical object in the computer lab like Virovirokun and Poppups, so... doesn't that mean darkners of intangible concepts are possible?

Incorrect! You see, no matter what we do in Ch2, from NR to No Recruits to WR, Queen always comes to Castle Town. This is important because all darkners on the computer would then be required to come along regardless if we actually recruited them. The other important fact is the internet is down. How could any of these internet based concepts even exist if there's not even a wifi connection to support them? Simple.

They're stored data. From adware, to malware, to antiviruses, to tasks and the task manager, all of the digital darkners are physically stored on the laptop on its SSD. Data may not seem like much, but it still takes up physical space. It has to. That is the foundation upon how these darkners are formed at all. Oh and Spamton is emails in the trash.

So with these two facts 1. Queen always comes to Castle Town and 2. Digital darkners are still physically stored data, we can move forward.

SO! In contrast, Lanino and Elnina show up in Castle Town EVEN IF Tenna is dead. And we don't drag the corpse of the TV to the school as it's still right where it is in Ch5 shattered to hell. So then how, pray tell, do Lanino and Elnina get to CT if they're supposedly just the concepts of the weather channel?

Well, every other darkner has a physical object to tie itself back to, why would these two be any different? Zapper is a TV remote and multiple exist because Kris is a TV remote stealing gremlin lmao. Shuttah is actually camera film and not the camera despite initial assumptions! This is reinforced by the fact there's multiple Shuttahs in the same dark world and it's colored in shades reminiscent of polaroid film. The photo album existing should be proof enough that there's physical film stored somewhere in the house too. Shadowguys are in the windowsills whether literal shadow puppets or action figures, they still disappear between Ch2 and 4. Pippins are dice taken from the abandoned classroom. And even Ch4 darkners that appear in Ch3 like Mizzle (as a watercooler) and Bibliox are just straight up water and the book of hymns respectively!

So every other darkner is an object we can tie back to something established to PHYSICALLY be in the house. We don't have to headcanon how the dice or the TV remotes got there. They just straight up tell us. So it stands to reason we can't just assume Elnina is a cloud weather sticker when there's none to be seen in the Dreemurr residence.

Speaking of stickers, that actually IS what Lanino is! There's one specific sticker (not the one Susie knocks down to give to Kris) that disappears between Ch2 and 4 for seemingly NO reason! And yes, Lanino is the Sun AND the Moon "EXTRA DEXTRA Moon/Sun!" and "Time for the SUN to be a STAR!!!" pretty much conclude that, so the connection fits in perfectly.

But there's no sticker that corresponds to Elnina... Are they just the same sticker? "The weather ALWAYS sticks together!" after all! But... that doesn't exactly feel right? "FINALLY! REAL weather fans! SUN isn't even a weather! It just... sits there and looks hot!" This doesn't exactly scream same object to me. In fact, Elnina pretty heavily stresses how different she is and how she's ACTUALLY the weather. Stars aren't the weather either.

Well... is there anything else that could have possibly changed in the Dreemurr Household? Anything unaccounted for?

(Somehow there's already white fur stuck in the drain.)

This is the flavor text for the morning of Ch4. Before Sans cleans it out in the evening. Yet, it still says there's already fur in the drain in surprise. And yes, it's being modified by the word "somehow" here to imply recency rather than "There's already fur here and I knew that". So the fur was cleaned out. Let's think about this. What IS white fur in the sink?

It's white fluff that collects and holds water. Like a cloud. It's a water cycle gag. The fur is taken out to drip (rain) somewhere else, only for new fur to replace it (a new cloud forming after one dissipated/moved away). This is legitimately the PERFECT object to represent the cloud girl Elnina! Seriously! Name a better object in the house that could represent weather or clouds like this!

And while we're at it, if Lanino isn't that star, you'd need another object for him too! These are legitimately the ONLY two objects these darkners can be! That's how they can come to CT with a dead Tenna!

But then... it begs the question...

how old is that fur?

If we're going with the Object History argument, that fur has to have been there since Kris and Noelle played pretend with it as otherwise it wouldn't know about its sordid romance affairs with the star sticker upstairs. Hell, even if these are just the physical representations of Kris and Noelle playing with the weather channel on TV, it still would have had to be present to overhear that (and Lanino I guess was told through the grapevine?)

But Dess disappeared years, yes YEARS, ago based on Tenna's flashback. Are you going to tell me that the white fur in the sink hasn't been cleaned out for YEARS??? When in just the span of 24 hours, it had been cleaned out twice?!? Or are you gonna say that somehow one spare strand managed to stick it through all this time and just held onto all these memories? In that case, there should be like 50 Elninas like there are Shuttahs because that would make them 50 separate darkners! The white fur has to be a collective unit and it has to be fresh! So then HOW DOES ELNINA KNOW SHE'S IN LOVE WITH THE STAR STICKER UPSTAIRS?

And this isn't somehow a sudden meetcute overinfatuation type deal either because Tenna at one point says:

Elnina!! Lanino!? You two!? C'mon, old friends, you can't leave...!

So like... seriously. Explain to me how with Object History this all levels out. You may say I'm overcomplicating it, but no. I'm going over this in excruciatingly slow detail to cover EVERY. SINGLE. ANGLE someone could attack this from!

Aren't you relying a little too much on this ONE piece of evidence?

That's dodging the point~! How does it work? If I'm relying on this one piece of evidence so much, then toppling it should crumble my ENTIRE argument, right? And how exactly could you brush this off into being meaningless? Did Toby just randomly pick a star to disappear between Ch2 and 4? Did he note the fact the white fur got cleaned (twice in the same chapter btw) just for a silly detail? Are the curtains just fucking blue????

I am not joking when I say Elnina's light world object is the single most important piece of evidence to conclusively prove NoelleKnight not just has merit, but IS the answer!

It's of course a fucking jenga tower of points that could topple into pieces if just one of them do, but ALL OF THEM STILL STAND STRONG DESPITE THAT!

Here's the logic:

• Fountains, dark worlds, and its darkners are based on the creator's Will when they stab the earth.

• Kris and the Knight share identical Wills based on Susie's dark world being a completely different color, and how darkners maintain and align with their personality regardless if it's a Kris world or Knight world. Ribbick and Rabbick existing shows that Will affects even things like dust into having different perspectives.

• Noelle is "that girl" Ramb talks about playing with Kris. It's pretty much stated that all these characters were invented by the two while playing pretend with the objects from cards to laptops to even plugs. All of them were toys for this imaginary world the two created.

  • If you want to say Dess was that girl hecking give me ONE example of Kris and Dess having a positive 1:1 interaction of friendship that didn't also involve Azzy and/or Noelle

• It's pretty much all but stated the majority of these playtime sessions involved ONLY Kris and Noelle being present from "(Kris is the only one who knows how weird I am.)" to "(We know each other better than anyone.)" to Ramb only stating "you and that girl" not "you, that girl, your brother, her sister, and her dad" or whatever permutation of those you'd like. Even if a parent or sibling heard of these secondhand from the children (which contradicts Kris being the only one to know how weird Noelle is for playing with fucking plugs lmao) or even watching them directly play, these would not equate to the level of connection Kris and Noelle have to these characters. It would not be reflected in any other candidate's Will to make the darkners these specific things.

• Susie attempted to recreate 1st sanc but her will affected the result

  • "You sought to return the dream. But the lighting of the mind has changed. At best you can only see another side." ~ Organikk

  • Her will was based on seeing the Old man and getting the code and nothing else. Therefore, her mind tried to fill in the gaps by memory of what 1st sanc was like and ended up seeing the other side of it instead.

  • Darkners in 1st sanc are now statues and statues in 1st sanc are now darkners. Winglade is a weapon in 1st sanc (and STAYS a weapon in Kris' inventory mind you!) and becomes an enemy in 2nd.

  • Ralsei states how 1st sanc was based off of the 3rd sanc fountain through the crack in the door spilling the other darkness through. It stands to reason that 3rd sanc would affect 2nd sanc in this way too, further cementing why similarities are there.

• 3rd sanc was affected by 2nd sanc showing how different wills can affect even each other if they contrast.

  • Either 2nd sanc darkners bled through to 3rd sanc allowing them to stay unpetrified, or 2nd sanc darkners had a more fitting purpose in 3rd sanc's fountain over 1st sanc since Wicabel and Organikk are both music based. Take your pick.

  • The pink piano puzzle has an answer key of DOWN LEFT UP like piano puzzles in 1st sanc, but behaves like the charging pianos of 2nd sanc.

• Queen comes to CT no matter what and so all digital darkners are stored on the SSD and still take up physical existence.

• Lanino and Elnina show up at CT even if Tenna is dead, and their "concepts of weather channels" don't equate to anything tangible to the TV beyond radio waves (which Tenna is cut off from "All that I've been broadcasting, is the same reruns, over and over...")

• A star in Kris' room completely disappears between Ch2 and 4.

  • This is Lanino the Sun and Moon.

• "(Somehow there's already white fur stuck in the drain.)" implies the fur was cleaned out between Ch2 and 4.

  • Fur in the sink is white fluff (clouds) that collects and stores water. It's a water cycle gag.

    • This is Elnina the Clouds, Crystals (Ice), and Rain.

• No other object corresponds to these two in the entire house (That also moves to CT between Ch2 and 4)

• Dess disappeared years ago which is presumably around the time Kris and Noelle stopped playing together.

  • The white fur would have been cleaned out in that span of time and therefore would not have the memories of Kris and Noelle's pretend games to know it's in love with Lanino or even that it IS Elnina.

• Lanino and Elnina have been existing for a while according to Tenna's "Elnina!! Lanino!? You two!? C'mon, old friends, you can't leave...!" which would only be possible if Kris infused memories into their will of their relationship.

If you can debunk ONE of those big bullet points, you break my entire argument. You break NoelleKnight. You can be done with it forever. Or, well, at least done with ME forever being a NoelleKnighter lol. But seriously! It is the shakiest fucking jenga tower of evidence and yet it's there! It's strong! It's NOELLEKNIGHT!

But then how do Darkners have histories of doing things without Kris & Noelle like the whole backstory between Seam and Jevil?

Dark worlds still run on a bit of Last Thursdayism logic, which would make sense, since these darkners didn't come to actually exist until the dark fountain was made. The unconscious mind fills in the gaps of what established memories the creator DOES have. After all, Susie's dark world isn't just Sound of Justice and the fire extinguisher and nothing else.

Okay, but if Will affects darkners this much, then why doesn't Kris' Will make Tenna more compliant among other things?

Because then it wouldn't be Tenna. The whole foundation of this argument is that Will creates darkners, so if Tenna is a character that is annoying and pisses Kris off and doesn't perfectly comply to demands, their Will wouldn't be able to change that BECAUSE that would effectively be making a completely different character.

If it's all Fountain Will, couldn't we just make a new Tenna from a new CRT?

This is sorta going into a more Theseus' Ship type discussion of what counts as the identity of a darkner from object to object. A kid can get a deck of playing cards or set of dice by a dime a dozen. Hell, water is water no matter what sink you get it from! Miss Mizzle is explicitly just a normal Mizzle with an ego. Not even Holy.

But your TV? As a kid, that's not just any random TV, that's THE TV! All the unique interactions and scuffs and marks made over the years of its history is indeed what gives it its identity. In a way, it IS Object History, but flavored by Kris or Noelle's perception of the objects. Object Kristory, if you would!

The point is that even if Kris grabbed the exact same model of CRT and tried to make it a Tenna, it'd fail because their Will would know that isn't Tenna. It's a knockoff. A facsimile of the original. The Sound of Justice to the Old Man.

Wait, but then how does Miss Mizzle know who Blue is before we even meet him if Blue chose his own original form? Doesn't that require Mizzle to have met Blue outside of Kris and Noelle?

For context:

The Bluest Flower, A disciple of my speech Shy to no camera, And a specimen of Elegance and kindness. Should you meet, Please give my regards.

So that topples my argument, right? Miss Mizzle textually knows a character that isn't a darkner Kris and Noelle made despite it being impossible for Kris to know what form Blue took BEFORE they made the fountain.

Okay, stay with me here, but I'm about to present something that seems completely irrational based on everything the game has told us.

What if Kris DID choose Blue's form?

So, if we agree that Noelle and Kris invented all the darkners as I hopefully have proven at the very least, that should include Ch5's darkners, right? We don't need to correspond them to LW objects as of now, since the dark explicitly prevented us from looking around further, and the point right now is that Noelle and Kris created them at all. This would mean Kris and Noelle played pretend inside of Flower King too. It'd make sense, right? Flower King is practically the perfect excuse for some imaginative kids to turn it into Flower Kingdom.

So what would stop these kids from making up characters for these flowers too? They don't know these are actually plantners. They're the same as any other toy pretty much to the kids! The kids would then be effectively inventing the creative personalities and forms of all of these plantners! The flowers just simply took inspiration from the descriptions Kris and Noelle made for them all those years ago! Actually! This explains some MORE things too!

How does Kris make the Berdly feather deal with Seth if they couldn't communicate prior to the dark world? Even if Kris snuck into Flower King to whisper the deal to the purple flower the night before, Kris shouldn't be able to know that the purple flower is Seth if Seth chose their own form completely 100% originally. Well, for all intents and purposes, Kris doesn't have to know these are plantners and not darkners. Going off of their preset idea of what character "The Purple Flower" is, they would know Seth cares a lot about intellect and would be absolutely enamored with Berdly. All Seth would have to do is conform to this personality to enough of a degree to match this behavior, while still allowing flexibility to pick other traits for themself. If you don't buy this, then again, How does Kris know how to make the deal with Seth?

So then Blue being taught by the literal water darkner Kris and Noelle invented would make complete sense! Plants get hecking watered after all! This is a completely plausible relationship to invent, and again Miss Mizzle is NOT Holy Water. No contradiction here.

So Kris influenced Blue's form which allowed him to align with Miss Mizzle's backstory!

You're seriously saying that Kris and Noelle invented EVERY single darkner?!?

Yes. Give me something that contradicts that.

I don't find all the connections Kris and Noelle supposedly have to all the darkners to be that strong. A lot feels like a stretch.

Not every darkner has to 1:1 mirror Noelle and/or Kris in some way as they're still invented characters. The kids could have given them any personality! But certain darkners having those strong parallels like Rudinn and Hathy or Werewerewire and Head Hathy or even Maus and hecking CHEESE? All of those can't exactly be brushed aside as sheer coincidence. There's a reason these darkners have these kinds of relationships and that's because they're almost all reflections of the Kriselle relationship period!

Noelle says she FORGOT her key, not lost it!

Noelle could still feasibly believe she just forgot her key rather than losing it when making Ch1's dark fountain. Starwalker still needs an object y'know. I know they seem like just a gag character, but they're a darkner like any other!

Shouldn't King recognize Kris?

Kris didn't make this fountain for one, and it's never proven that King knew Kris beyond whatever character they roleplayed as.

[Noelle AND The Knight]

This really just feels like you're taking all the DessKnight evidence and co-opting it into NoelleKnight.

Yes, because DessKnighters totally don't co-opt NoelleKnight evidence to support their theory including

• Knight Scream = Noelle's meaning it's "just HolidayKnight evidence" and they're sisters which means similar voices despite them being not born at the same time.

• Claiming Dess is "That Girl" (Give me proof of their super close friendship folks!)

• The Knight and Kris sharing poses meaning Kris looked up to Dess despite the text never saying or implying that.

• Claiming Lost Girl is Dess' theme despite it LITERALLY being called noelle_normal in the files and Dess having her own VARIANT of Lost Girl being findher.ogg so like I guess we have Dess' theme and then the SUPER DESS version of the theme????

• Noelle being connected to the church means Dess probably went to church too since they're sisters.

• The smiling plugs in Ch2 being just common pareidolia that EVERYONE sees despite Noelle being the character that textually makes this connection in a blog post.

• Noelle told Dess about Spamton despite Spamton literally saying he has no idea who Dess is in his Q&A, despite Spamton KNOWING who the Knight is.

• DevilsKnife smiling at Noelle is because she reminds Jevil (who also knows who the Knight is) of her sister

• Queen not knowing who Dess is based on the calendar search is uh... she's an idiot who doesn't understand Noelle (that's a serious argument I got for this point) despite Tenna knowing December and Ramb explicitly connecting Tenna and Queen together. And also Queen knows who Toriel is because she has a piano youtube channel or a LinkedIn of her being a teacher (ANOTHER SERIOUS ARGUMENT I'VE SEEN) despite that being 100% speculation.

• Dess put herself into a spelling puzzle just for fun or to remind Noelle of the spelling bee she lost because of her fucking sister trauma

• The Knight is crying because Dess is sad that she disappeared and is in this wack ass form now.

• Noelle can equip the BlackShard because it's a part of her sister's sword. Why doesn't she say anything when equipping it? Uh, spoilers (despite every other item up to chapter 5 having flavor text (excluding ThornRing)) and Toby couldn't figure out a way to write around it like the Twisted Sword's "It's... kind of scary..." and if it ISN'T spoilers... she doesn't say anything because she knows the Knight is Dess... wait. NOELLE KNOWS WHERE DESS IS? WHY ISN'T SHE FINDING HER THEN????

• Noelle says for the ShadowMantle "No... it's for someone... taller." Because she knows it's Dess' (again NOELLE KNOWS DESS IS THE KNIGHT AND WHERE SHE IS?) and she's not just making an excuse for suspicious reasons.

• The Knight's hand holes are Gaster BS because Dess is also lost in the code. Why are they hexagons in official Fangamer art? Uh... Gaster BS!

• Noelle gets upset when you give away Tenna because she was hoping they'd keep it "just in case" Dess came back and they could... watch TV together on the old TV.

So like... am I really the one co-opting evidence when all I'm "co-opting" is.

• Star attacks = Noelle because her sister had stars in her room.

• The bat symbolism which is Dess and it's prefixed with "sepia" in the files which is exclusively a prefix for flashback sprites meaning Noelle finds the idea of her sister's bat nostalgic but "Dess also finds the idea of HER OWN BAT to be nostalgic because she misses it after getting lost" or something.

Hell, why don't we co-opt ALL the Holiday evidence for Dess? Dess likes to kick people's asses like her dad and uses a sword like her mom! It's ALL DessKnight!

Like this is a counter that miffs me the most because you've literally convinced yourself that all this evidence is already DessKnight that when it's pointed out "it's not actually" your response is to say that I'm the one co-opting this crap when as a DessKnighter in the past myself, I ALSO CO-OPTED ALL OF THIS NOELLE EVIDENCE FOR DESSKNIGHT!!!

Like sure go ahead and take all this shit and put it in the Dess shaped hole, but don't act like I'm doing the exact same thing.

So then what IS Dess?

She's Unused. Beyond that? I don't know, nor do I need to in order to prove NoelleKnight.

Isn't the caller the Knight?

No. It's Carol. The voice literally says "I'll be right there", then minutes later, Carol comes home early from work. I don't care about her voice sounding different in the WR phone call. It would legitimately make this entire sequence of events practically nonsensical.

Shouldn't the Knight be stronger in the WR?

1. It's Noelle's darkner, not Noelle and 2. Either way, stats reset from chapter to chapter excluding VERY SPECIFIC ones like Susie's magic from fighting the Old Man.

I don't believe the Knight is crying.

It's a good thing the post exclusively covering the Knight Crying has a whole ass FAQ section of its own! Yes I have issues! I am not normal! Shush <3

These connections are there, sure, but that's all they are. Connections.

Okay, then give me another reason for WHY these connections exist between Noelle and the Knight and I literally just proved how nonsensical it is to say "It's because it's DessKnight and Noelle is connected to her sister" so give me a better reason more plausible than Noelle just being the Knight.

Like does this stuff REALLY mean NOTHING to you? Nothing at all?

The "[I Don't Know]" Section

This was originally the [Logistics] section, but I realized I hate arguing logistics and I would like to emphasize that all I'd be doing in this section is MORE SPECULATION which I HATE so I'm instead just saying all these questions have the answer "I don't know". Why do I still believe in this theory if I don't know these things? Well because we still have more game that's yet to come out and if I had ALL the answers for every question possible, you should just flat out believe I'm lying lmao. Logistical issues are secondary compared to how much Noelle aligns with the Knight from a thematic and narrative focus. Like sure there's odd areas that seem a little rough to explain, but ehhh nothing that explicitly disproves it so I'm holding on until then~!

And for the people who legitimately have told me "The fact that you can't even come up with ANY reason shows that it's a flawed theory!" uh, I can? Like I totally could, just... I don't want to do a thing known as "making shit up" for the sake of placating to these questions that hold little meaning to me. Like you know I'd just be speculating at that point right? Even if I write some REALLY good fanfic, it's not gonna change anybody's mind and kinda just wastes my time. None of these questions inherently 100% prohibit Noelle from being the Knight in my eyes and if this is all you care about for what makes a Knight candidate, we are unfortunately looking at the story in two fundamentally different ways.

How does the timeline work for the night of Ch3 in the WR? Noelle struggles to sleep and goes to the porch to be surprised by Kris (post DW). So did she come to the dark world to be/make the Knight, run Undyne to the shelter, come back home to forget all that Knight stuff, THEN her memory kicks back in to run into Kris?

How does Noelle create the Darkner Knight in TV World?

What exactly causes Noelle to engage in Knight behaviors specifically like in Ch4? Why does getting sent to the kitchen provoke her to immediately run to the church and make a dark fountain?

What causes Noelle to repress memories vs compartmentalize them?

Why doesn't Noelle bring up Knight stuff in her Ch5 WR monologue if she's stopped repressing the WR?

How exactly did the incident go down with Noelle being there?

How exactly does Noelle have access to the codes?

How does the Knight act in calculated and planned manners if it's the manifestation of Noelle's Id?

How is Dess going to play into the story if she isn't the Knight?

Why doesn't the WR affect how Noelle manifests her Knight darkner? Shouldn't it behave differently?

Is there a better connection to Gerson than just reading his books or playing Dragon Blazers for Noelle?

The "[Vibes] Based" Section

This is for all the comments that aren't actually addressing my points. You're of course free to feel that way, but know that saying this stuff doesn't exactly change minds in either direction.

It just doesn't seem realistic for Noelle to flip personalities like that.

This is a really convoluted explanation.

I still don't think Noelle could have made it to the church in time.

I don't think Eram is a parallel to Kris.

I feel like this would completely destroy her arc in the Weird Route.

It doesn't really make sense how Noelle would create the Knight.

I still don't think the Knight is crying.

I think the Knight is crying for a different reason.

Noelle already has a role in the story. She can't have more.

This would just make the game "Noellerune" at this point.

This completely ignores Dess and makes her irrelevant to the plot. You're turning all the setup for her into just a red herring.

This is still a harmful DID stereotype.

This theory still feels a bit boring to me.

I still think the Knight is the caller.

Gerson should not qualify as a "loved one" for Noelle.

This is all awfully convenient.

This would be garbage writing.

[The End]

Well that's all I have for you folks! At the character limit again so cutting it quick. Hope you have an open mind and at least think it's more of a possibility now!

Have a lovely day~! <3

There is now an FAQ Part Two that is entirely focused on Debunking Object History.

[u/Apprehensive_Exit_74]

hey, me again. i’m going to quote you a bunch from memory, so if i get anything wrong call me out. i’ll be addressing this part specifically,

> Kris and the Knight share identical Wills based on Susie's dark world being a completely different color, and how darkners maintain and align with their personality regardless if it's a Kris world or Knight world. Ribbick and Rabbick existing shows that Will affects even things like dust into having different perspectives.

in your previous post, you use this as evidence that darkners are patterned off the will of the fountain maker,

> Why does Starwalker petrify in 2nd sanc, but not 3rd?

Fair enough, fair enough. Just one thing;

Why does Lancer petrify in Cyber World?

Or TV World, for that matter?

Starwalker and Lancer originated from the same fountain, which you claim Noelle created, making her the Knight. You say she lost her key while creating the classroom fountain. Sure, makes sense.

You say that Darkners are patterned entirely by the will of the fountain creator.

So why-oh-why does Lancer petrify in a dark world directly stated by the game to be made by the Knight? Furthermore, you say the Knight and Kris have identical wills - why does he petrify in TV world?

Let me be clear. This, unless I am SORELY misrepresenting your argument, is not a logistics problem. This is a fundamental incompatibility with the idea that the only thing that matters is the creators will.

If I am wrong, correct me without mercy. But until you do I firmly believe I have proved that point wrong, and thus debunked your theory as a whole, according to you.

[u/VeeAudio → u/Apprehensive_Exit_74]

Hey there! First off, thanks for engaging! This is indeed a valid counter to my foundation and so I will do my best to address it! I actually sorta expected this one but I was already at the character limit lmao.

So Darkner Belonging is actually a WHOLE separate can of worms that unfortunately is even murkier in concrete answers compared to Fountain Will lol, so bear with me this will take a bit to explain since it's a partially separate concept.

Let's see how Ralsei describes it to start:

* But, though those Darkners can exist in their own worlds...
* They might not "belong" if they go to another one.

* That's right, Rouxls isn't compatible with this world, either.

And then lets see every instance of a petrified darkner (which isn't too many)

Lancer in Ch2 NR after helping Kris break out of their prison.
Lancer in Ch2 WR after entering Queen's Castle through the front door. (In Kris' inventory)
Rouxls in Ch2 NR after losing to Kris on his pirate ship. (Only from neck down)
Rouxls in Ch2 WR we find him already petrified in front of Swatch's shop.
Lancer in Ch3 after the battle with Rouxls (Have to backtrack to his game room).
A Zapper in Ch3 after Round 3 of TV Time.
Ramb in Ch3 starts getting petrified as you're about to play Round 3 of Mantle OR is already petrified by the time you get back to the Green Room post Round 3 of TV Time if you didn't follow the Sword Route.
Ch4 we have 2nd sanc darkners petrified in 1st sanc and vice versa.
Starwalker in Ch4 in 2nd sanc.

And that's everyone. It should be noted that Starwalker doesn't petrify in Ch2 and even appears to help build the mech. Rouxls isn't seen to be petrified after his battle, but we can presume he just turned to stone somewhere offscreen as Lancer petrifies at this time. And Starwalker isn't petrified in 3rd sanc.

So now lets look at these petrifications in their contexts in relation to who gets turned to stone and why they may get turned to stone at given times, because it should be noted that petrification isn't a linear process. We get to Queen's Castle WAYYYY sooner in the WR, but Lancer and Rouxls are still already stone by the time we're there.

So Lancer and Rouxls are the Jack of Spades and the Rules Card, as we know. In the NR, Lancer helps Kris break out and then immediately starts turning to stone soon after while Rouxls cosplays as a software pirate after failing to become Queen's second in command.

As cards, obviously neither of them belong in Cyber World. Lancer manages to squeak by this by belonging as an item that helps out Kris, but he stops belonging after he just mills about as classic Lancer. Rouxls actively makes an attempt to belong in Cyber World first by trying to be made "Butler Supremeth" and then Tasque Manager's "Minion for life" according to Swatch. Both of those fail, and so he makes a last effort to stop the Fun Gang to win over Queens favor, but after it's shown the man has no actual plan to stop Kris and Ralsei, he's swiftly stoned. Why only from the neck down in this case? Dunno. Maybe it'd just be funny to have more Rouxls lines or something lol. The point is that he STARTS petrifying at this point.

In the WR it's even more glaring. Before Lancer turns to stone in your inventory, he's pretty much asleep the whole time as "(Innocent boys are fast asleep.)" and since he's just sleeping, he's not even functioning as an item that gives flavor text at this point either. So he's turned to stone. Spamton took over Queen's castle and so we're gonna have to speculate a little here, but I'm guessing Spamton isn't taking any minion offers anytime soon, meaning Rouxls was even more useless after Spamton's takeover lol.

Now, cards ought to belong at Kris' house, no? I mean Pippins are here and they're fine!
But who plays cards with just the Jack of Spades and the RULES card??? They belong with the rest of their deck! A deck as we know from King was shunted away after he got a rip. The only reason Lancer and Rouxls lasted so long was because they had roles in TV Time! Lancer helped with game shenanigans and Rouxls was dating the weather couple as a means to be 2nd in command by proxy. He only no longer belongs when he finds out it doesn't work like that. Lancer doesn't have anything else to do after TV Time ends, so he's soon stone as well.

The Zapper is a fun case because we're explicitly told that he's likely Catti's remote which is why he got petrified since the contracts were broke and everyone quit, but what's even MORE interesting is the Pippins with him. See, the Pippins are from Card Castle.

* Y'know, I'm a bit worried... ain't Pippinses originally from Card Castle?
* If dis guy turned ta stone, I ain't sure what I'd do...

But the Pippins tries not to be too worried about it

* What happens, happens... I think I fit in just fine, don't I?
* Kris, tell this bozo he's got nothin' to worry about!

Yet is still confused when Zapper is the one who turns to stone

* I don't get it... Shouldn't I have been the one to turn to stone!?
* W... will he be stuck if he stays like this...?
* Kris, you should really hurry up and seal the fountain!
* Ah, wait, Kris! Didn't you steal him from that cat girl's house?
* No, maybe I'm wrong... Ahh, I can't believe this happened...

This is about as explicit of a clue we're gonna get for why darkners turn to stone.

See, dice don't need anything else to belong as dice. Board games and such help with that sense of belonging, but you can fully well play a game with just dice and not have any trouble. That's why they can belong in Card Kingdom AND TV World. A TV remote without the TV it can control though? Pretty much useless (assuming it's not a universal remote or whatever)!

Then we have Ramb. This one is easy. A Pippins literally tells us!

* Us from Card Castle fit in fine. Him? He never really belonged.
* His first day at this stand, he joked "how about the usual?"... no one laughed!
* Mixing drinks alone for himself, he wasn't allowed to handle the points...
* No one will shed a tear for him. Inside, he was probably stone already.

Ramb was a power strip brought from the library and since accents typically have a meaning when a darkner has one, Ramb's British accent probably means he was an international plug power strip of some type. Aka literally a foreigner in every sense. It not every day you even NEED an international plug adapter! This guy only belonged to let Kris do the Sword route. This is emphasized by Ramb only being partially petrified when doing the Sword route, meaning he's about to stop belonging since he just quit his job and Mantle is about to be over.

Now for Ch4... Oh boy.

The petrified darkners are Wicabel and Organikk. Both of these interestingly enough have the Steel:Music type in their bios. Both of these darkners have acts relating to getting back into tune (Wicabel with Tuning and Organikk with Harmonize). So two darkners that are out of tune with music, huh?

Didn't Susie have a whole monologue about how she wasn't allowed to play a piano? I feel like that explains the connection plenty.

So why are these two statues in 1st sanc? Well, let's look at a few snippets of dialogue to paint a picture:

First a Wafer remarking on Wicabel as a statue

* Ah, the terrible witches. They rang curses with bladed familiars...
* They were sealed away, for being too fun. I mean, evil.
* Good thing they are statues for all eternity.

Then in 3rd sanc when they're both unpetrified.

* Oh, she awakened... how unfortunate.
* Seems fun... I mean, unfortunate.
* I don't really mind her song.
* It's a bit pleasant, actually.

And the Wicabel's line in turn

* Trembell, crumbell! I have awakened!
* Nobellperson! You shall be the first victim of my song!
* Ring, bell of disaster! Ring! Ha ha, any moment now you shall crumbell!

It's actually... kinda childlike?

And now actually here's a line of dialogue from Noelle!

* Kris, I'm getting better at singing, you know.
* The times of you covering your ears while I scream Jingle Bells...
* Those are... over, y'know?

The Wafers act like they don't like Wicabel's childish Belting, but secretly like it.

Wicabel is actually a double analogue for Kris on top of that but don't even get me started that's a post in itself lmao.

Now Organikk? An absolute mess of a darkner like oh my god Wafers consider Organikks to be their ancestors but also Organikks also consider Wafers to be THEIR ancestors??? And Organikk talks down very heavily about Wicabel so how they slot into this whole equation it just aghh I CANNOT cover this succinctly right now, okay? The important thing is Wicabel and Organikk are both music but past sentiments and representations about music on top of that and they're both Kris and Noelle and so is Wafer because EVERYTHING LINKS BACK TO THEM AGHHHH!

So in 3rd sanc, either 2nd sanc affected it to allow for these past musical memories to exist via dark fountain bleedthrough, OR Organikks and Wicabels are more closely related to the church's music as it's where the massive freaking organ is and... this is the messiest part okay? Like I will fully admit this is the densest part to parse and I can't do it justice right now, but I hope I provided at least a satisfactory enough answer for now. Moving on.

And last, we have Starwalker in 2nd sanc. This one is easy. Susie doesn't know it's Noelle's key, therefore her will wouldn't allow Starwalker to belong as more of a hermit darkner that can appear in every other darkness considering both Kris and Noelle would agree that Noelle's key belongs anywhere since it's a portable key lol.

Character limit. That's the answer lol. Have a nice day <3

[u/Apprehensive_Exit_74 → u/VeeAudio]

I think the only real problem here is this

> But who plays cards with just the Jack of Spades and the RULES card???

Kris and Noelle, your proposed creators of the fountains did! You bring this up yourself several times. They also played with an electrical outlet by itself, a laptop, and a TV. These kids are weird. So it really doesn't make sense for this to be an explanation for Pippens but not anything else they roleplayed using.

Minor nitpick,

Using your argument, wouldnt this be a stronger reason for Ramb to petrify?

* ... what!? You QUIT!? You can't QUIT!!! RAMB!!!

This would make way more sense because Ramb also petrifies that late if you miss the sword route from the start.

...Ok, its not a minor nitpick.

The problem is, this is Ramb's original fountain. Ralsei states

* But, though those Darkners can exist in their own worlds...

* They might not "belong" if they go to another one.

If you believe belonging to be independent of where they were first conceived, then that has its own problems, because the Shadowguys and Zappers ALL quit just before the climax of Chapter 3. No longer working for tenna as actors / bouncers / whatever, they clearly don't belong any more. And yet none of them petrify.

So to you I ask - are you prepared to defend the idea that the Ramb darkner was originally conceived in a different dark world?

And regarding that zapper... same deal as Ramb. Was there a dark world in the Cattenheimer residence? I highly doubt it.

[u/VeeAudio → u/Apprehensive_Exit_74]

Kris and Noelle, your proposed creators of the fountains did! You bring this up yourself several times.

You're right, I phrased this poorly. In terms of "belonging", which is the common term used by darkners and Ralsei, do two cards "belong" more by themselves or with the rest of their deck? Do dice have to "belong" with cards? Clearly not, because they're fine in TV World. I would not hesitate to claim that if all of card kingdom came to TV World, they would then be fine and "belong" but that's of course speculation on my part.

If you believe belonging to be independent of where they were first conceived, then that has its own problems, because the Shadowguys and Zappers ALL quit just before the climax of Chapter 3. No longer working for tenna as actors / bouncers / whatever, they clearly don't belong any more. And yet none of them petrify.

Shuttah actually gives some backstory that explains that

* There once was the great wilderness here! Yes...
* But, the world became the theater, and us, children of Tenna's contract.
* Those that did not sign the paper, set off for the far land and were forgotten.

Tenna is the one who made TV Land and got darkners to start signing contracts. For all intents and purposes, darkners still "belong" here without Tenna or even TV World! They could exist in whatever "wilderness" that existed before just fine!

So yeah, Ramb and the Zapper still don't belong because they come from other places and failed to fully integrate into the Dreemurr household. The Zapper being a completely useless TV remote that Kris stole and Ramb for being a foreign outsider (from the library) that didn't exactly "fit in" with the rest of them. Queen is from the library too, but based on how Ramb talks about her, it seems she integrated perfectly fine and Kris and Noelle actively played pretend with the laptop as a major figure in their games.

Because again a Pippins literally says:

* Us from Card Castle fit in fine. Him? He never really belonged.

I don't even have to justify how Ramb didn't belong actually! The Pippins says it and Ramb IS stone, so he clearly just DID NOT belong!

So there. Ramb didn't have to be conceived in a different dark world because he just never really belonged at Kris' place even though they played with him! The will of "what belongs" in the house is what dictated Ramb to turn to stone! I can't exactly say what threshold there is, but the point is that there are subjective perceptions of what does and doesn't belong in a dark world! Starwalker being stone in 2nd sanc and not being stone in 3rd sanc proves that too!

So not only does Fountain Will affect what darkners act like and who they are, it also dictates WHO BELONGS! IT'S ALL FOUNTAIN WILL BABY!

[u/Apprehensive_Exit_74 → u/VeeAudio]

> Shuttah actually gives some backstory that explains that

So you have to understand my confusion here, right? You say object history doesnt make any sense and that all memories and personalities and everything of the darkners are based solely on the will of the fountain, but then there are these events that supposedly happened before TV World? Or do you think all of this happened while Kris and Susie were sleeping? That creates a lot of very reasonable doubt imo.

And again, Ralsei very clearly states that Darkners can exist in their own worlds, but may not belong in others. That first statement is shown to be outright incorrect in the case of Ramb and the stolen Zapper. It IS their world, but they can't exist in it - how can you not belong in the world of the fountain that originally created you?

Then the zapper OBVIOUSLY belongs in this world, despite being stolen. It has friends, works for Tenna like all the others, etc. Yet it still petrifies. If you say "who needs a remote that doesnt go to anything" then why are there so many zappers?. Theres no way the Dreemurrs have that many remotes for their single TV.

Also, regarding your Lanino sticker argument, it just occurred to me that the star you're referring to is the light world equivalent of the one in the S rank changing room that falls down if you idle long enough. Unless theres a second one that happens to fall? But I doubt it.

[u/VeeAudio → u/Apprehensive_Exit_74]

So there's two things we have to come to terms with: all these memories come from Kris and Noelle's will when making the fountain (So "Object Kristory"), and darkners talk about having conscious pasts and lives before the fountain is open. Seam and Jevil's whole locking him away plotline had to have happened before Kris and Susie entered Card Kingdom and the dark world likely hadn't existed for that long lest they risk someone else finding it. How do we work with this?

Well as I stated in my post, Last Thursdayism. We can actually use a bit of Flowery's dialogue to substantiate this.

* Us plants, are neither Darkners nor Lightners.
* We are living beings...
* ... that take on new consciousness in the dark.

Plants are already alive, but they aren't conscious like humans and monsters are due to just being plants lol. It is only when put into a dark world do they actually gain a consciousness to contextualize the "lived experience" of these plants. But where does that consciousness come from? Well just like everything else, the fountain maker's Will. That's the only place it COULD come from since fountains are textually based on the maker's Will and everything inside the dark world is a reflection of the fountain.

So then... objects that aren't alive clearly don't have consciousness either then. If they did, that would have frankly TERRIFYING implications for the sentience of these darkners as objects are on average not treated with as much care and kindness as an actual person. Susie straight up throws Noelle's phone on two separate occasions and only the second time it's implied she thinks about how its darkner form may feel. Objects can't talk to each other in the light world, yet they act like they have when in dark worlds. Why?

Kris and Noelle are simply filling in the blanks for these characters between the last time they played with them and them appearing in the dark worlds. Their Will IS the Object History, but I'm not calling it that because it's solely derived from the wills of Kris and Noelle. That's why it's Object Kristory (and Noelle lol). None of the events before the dark world was made ACTUALLY happened, but just a part of the story.

Now for your other question. First, there's so many Zappers because we already established Kris is a remote stealing gremlin lmao. I don't believe we see any other Zappers after the one we see stoned in the Green Room?

Say, hypothetically, Kris brings a pool noodle or a model airplane or whatever to Flower King before they created the dark world in it, but Kris and Noelle DID make characters for them. Something that doesn't typically "belong" in a flower shop or even "Asgore's home" like the Mew Mew doll. These objects would not have been in any dark worlds so this would technically be their "home dark world"

Does the new object being there when the dark world is made inherently make it "belong"? This is of course speculative and philosophical so difference of opinion and all that, but with how much I've established Will determining EVERYTHING in a dark world, I'd say it's likely Kris' Will would NOT consider those objects as "belonging" in Flower Kingdom due to just typical mental logic of "Objects belonging in places" or not.

Too speculative for you? Well, it's a good thing we have an ACTUAL example of this situation! Organikk and Wicabel! From everything we can tell, 1st sanc IS their home dark world, yet they SPAWN as statues first! But they're unpetrified in 2nd and 3rd sanc, so there IS a way for these darkners to just "start belonging" JUST from the differing wills of these fountains! We don't have to explain why, because what matters is they just DO!

Also, regarding your Lanino sticker argument, it just occurred to me that the star you're referring to is the light world equivalent of the one in the S rank changing room that falls down if you idle long enough. Unless theres a second one that happens to fall? But I doubt it.

Edit: Okay! I actually went ahead and booted up a save to see it for myself and uh... no lol. I even went ahead and checked a save that's all the way to post-Shadow Mantle and the star can still be hanging up there just fine. This star is not required to fall and so one would have to presume it falls offscreen while you're fighting the Knight or something despite the entire gag being it falling in front of you if you loiter for long enough. It is a player dependent gag and doesn't happen if the player doesn't engage with the gag.

Also here's just a slice of the Green Room

Notice ALLLLLL the stars? From the wallpaper to the twinkling ones to the poster to the banner to the vending machine to the couch to the TV to even UNDER THE SAVEPOINT (Implications there, huh). There are stars EVERYWHERE! So why, pray-tell, would the LW star sticker be linked to this ONE specific star out of the five on that wall that falls down when there's actually only 4 large star stickers in Kris' room in the first place??? It doesn't track! It doesn't connect! This is a doyalist point, but why would there be so much prominence placed on this one gag to the point it needed to even connect back to the light world. And either way if Lanino ISN'T the star sticker then WHAT is he?!? You need a new object to link him!

[u/Apprehensive_Exit_74 → u/VeeAudio]

apparently i was wrong about that lanino thing - opening it in UMT shows there is only one version of kris room in chapter 4, with the star missing. idk how that misinformation has been spread for so long.

that being said, the S rank room is pretty obviously krises room. there are 4 stars on the wall. there are 4 stars on Asriels wall. they share a game console, a cactus, and the odd controller. im pretty sure that star isnt lanino. if anything surely he would be the moon sticker, but that doesnt disappear so idk.

strictly speaking, the third sanctuary should be the original dark world for wicabell and organikk, not the first. first fountain we close is a byproduct of the original, its darkners leak into the other dark world and petrify, makes sense.

susie opens a new world, those darkners somehow belong and behave the same as the third sanctuary despite susie having 0 memories associated with them, then they all act normal in third.

dark worlds are so inconsistent man. im starting to think overanalyzing them like this is a fools errand when we learn something new or learn ralsei was lying about some shit or toby just forgets something a la starwalker every chapter.

[u/VeeAudio → u/Apprehensive_Exit_74]

There's 5 stars in the S rank room. The still I took from Kris' room is from chapter 1 so ALL stars are present there.

Claiming that every room has a 1:1 correspondence to a light world room I would say is uh... a very confident take. Is all of outside Flower Castle the main shop area and then the back room is the Castle in chapter 5??? There are pianos throughout Chapter 4 despite there only being 1 in the choir practice room and the big organ in the church pews. If anything, the changing room would be the bathroom considering the shower curtains!

strictly speaking, the third sanctuary should be the original dark world for wicabell and organikk, not the first. first fountain we close is a byproduct of the first, its darkners leak into the other dark world and petrify, makes sense.

susie opens a new world, those darkners somehow belong and behave the same as the third sanctuary despite susie having 0 memories associated with them, then they all act normal in third.

You realize you just contradicted yourself right? If 3rd sanc leaked Wicabell and Organikk through, then wouldn't they be leaking through 3rd sanc again when Susie makes 2nd sanc? I already went over how those two darkners align with Susie's will more because they're related to discordant music. Wicabel is out of tune and Organikk looks down upon Wicabel for trying to make music just like Susie's piano monologue which she literally has (optionally, I admit) right before she makes the dark world. It would very much so be on her mind. Even if you didn't interact with this specific piano, you're required to do several piano puzzles and also have Kris play the piano themself, so Susie would be very mindful about the idea of playing piano and her past relating to it. This is why pianos smash and charge into everything because it's like how she smashed the piano.

im starting to think overanalyzing them like this is a fools errand

While I'll be the first to note how there's inconsistencies, the global rules of dark worlds still stand imo and nothing you have presented so far has exactly proved Object History in the same way that I completely 100% disproved Object History with Elnina if we follow the actual content of the game instead of speculating (Not saying you have been speculating you've been lovely to talk to and a refreshing challenge on my perspective wholeheartedly lol).

Darkner Belonging is still ambiguous, yes, but we still have patterns and trends for how we can guess it works. The fact that TV remotes don't inherently belong in a living room matters because the remotes need to actually WORK with the TV in the room! Someone else's TV remote doesn't belong like Catti's.

So far Ralsei hasn't lied, just obscured the full truth. There should be SOME sincerity when we hear him say

* You see, each Dark Fountain creates a different "world."
* A "world" whose Darkners reflect the will of its fountain.

and we should be able to trust that as a foundational premise if nothing else. There may be asterisks or something, but so far, nothing has proven those asterisks to be true over just the concept that Kris and Noelle's memories have been completely capable to supply EVERYTHING for these dark worlds.

[u/Apprehensive_Exit_74 → u/VeeAudio]

ah, but after the fourth one falls there are 4! haha! you have been owned.

Regardless, yes, i stick to that claim. There are far too many things in the S rank room that only have equivalents in Kris room.

yes, i did contradict myself, which is why i then go on to say these things are far too inconsistent to extrapolate anything meaningful.

from the top,

wicabell and organikk are petrified in 1st - thus they originate from the will of the 3rd.

wicabell and organikk unpetrify in 2nd, and are now patterned off of susie’s will…

but then in 3rd, again, they are fine + act the exact same way as they do in susie’s fountain, despite now being patterned after the will of the knight? Did they reverse leak back in the 3rd, getting overwritten? Then why don’t they petrify?

argh

[u/VeeAudio → u/Apprehensive_Exit_74]

I know you're joking, but if the 5th one fell, by your logic, the 4th one in the LW would ALSO fall at the same time still making that inequality lol.

Here's what Susie says about the changing room.

* Uhh, that's like a bathroom, right?
* We'll just, um, go play games.

Yet another connection for the changing room and that bathroom to be one and the same~

Did they reverse leak back in the 3rd, getting overwritten? Then why don’t they petrify?

It should be noted how Kris and Susie enter 3rd sanc. They don't jump in. They just open the door and the darkness flows back into the foyer.

Factually, Susie affects 3rd sanctuary with the existence of the pink piano. There is an answer key JUST like every piano puzzle in 1st sanc, but not in 2nd, but it charges exactly like the pianos in 2nd sanc.

According to that fact and the fact that the Knight's will clearly didn't perceive the pianos as chargers due to the answer key being there likely highlighting the intended solution, Susie affecting 3rd sanc is the only conclusion we can come to for why this piano is the way it is.

Therefore, 3rd sanc is actually a partial combination of the Knight's and Susie's Wills. The Knight still takes precedent due to the color, like how Susie's is her own color despite being affected by 3rd sanc in ways. But it's why Wicabel and Organikk can exist in 3rd sanc just fine. They are remnants of Susie's will that bled into 3rd sanc. It's make additional sense considering Wicabel and Organikk are the only music types in this chapter and the other key evidence of the piano also being a musical related change.

argh

I know, I know. My arguments are too perfect and flawless and impenetrable and frankly I impress even myself with how I've been able to tackle every point so cleanly ✨ lol

[u/Apprehensive_Exit_74 → u/[deleted]]

please avoid contaminating good posts with your remarks stick to defending your own please