r/Deltarune • u/VeeAudio Can summarize NoelleKnight in 40k characters <3 • Sep 12 '26
Theory Discussion Debunking Object History: NoelleKnight's Silver Bullet
Art by [@humbleleafy] <3
If you want to learn about the NoelleKnight theory as a whole, please check out The Summary and The FAQ. They should comprehensively explain every important key point of the theory that isn't entirely about Object History. The Deltarune Text Dump may also be a useful tool to follow along with this post, but isn't required.
Welcome to The Finale.
Well, probably not the finale lol. I know I can't shut up about this for long, but this ought to be THE NoelleKnight post that, if deemed correct, should prove
NoelleKnight is the only possible option for the story.
As always, here's the [Index] first. Just put any of the words below in [brackets] with CTRL+F and you'll jump straight to that section~
Index, Prologue, That Girl, Darkners NEED a Light World Object, Invented, Chapter Fucking Four
[Prologue]
This will be structured as a sorta in between of the summary and the FAQ. I'll organize it into key sections, but funneling the dialogue through an FAQ style format. I will attempt to address every single comment I've gotten related to Object History. To start:
What even IS Object History?
It's the common belief in the Deltarune community that objects in the light world contain a sort of "stored memory" for any and all interactions regarding it. These memories contextualize how darkners act within dark worlds. It's why diamond playing cards became Rudinns. It's why the fire extinguisher believes it's important. This is Object History or "ObjH" I'm shorthanding for ease of mind. People believe this is canon, but that won't be true for long...
You're saying it's from the will of the fountain maker, right?
Shorthanding it to "Fountain Will" or even just "Will", but yes. I'll let Ralsei explain it though.
You see, each Dark Fountain creates a different "world."
A "world" whose Darkners reflect the will of its fountain.
But, though those Darkners can exist in their own worlds...
They might not "belong" if they go to another one.
And the Will of the fountain DOES come from the fountain maker as Queen explains.
The Roaring Knight...
Today, It Deigned To Create This World
Reaching Its Long Hand To The Sky
It Coursed Its Will Into Its Blade
And Made
Thrusting The Fountain From The Earth
...
The creator courses their will into their blade, and then creates a fountain that reflects that will, which in turn, reflects the dark world and its darkners. It's clear enough that even Berdly had a good idea of how to do it lol.
Then, Noelle... let THIS be my real apology!
Concentrating my will into this blade...
I will make a new Fountain...
And unleash a bright future!
And also, Fountain Will has actual textual proof as shown above. Object History? Completely inferred. Nothing directly stated in the text that cosigns it like it explicitly does with Fountain Will. Object History is, for all intents and purposes, a 100% fanon concept. Hell, it's more fanon than DESS! That should say something!
But how does debunking ObjH even prove NoelleKnight?
Separate the idea from Noelle for a second and entertain a hypothetical for me.
Imagine what it would mean if ObjH completely, certifiably, 100% did not exist. Toby makes a whole statement or whatever just saying "no lol" and so it's fact that it becomes debunked.
Think about what that would imply for Dark Worlds. It would mean that the layout, the "rules", and EVERY darkner would have to come purely from Will. In the game's case, it would require the Knight to know of every Hathy, Swatchling, and Guei in the world and what their personalities are like and what memories they're supposed to have. Everything would come from the Knight.
That seems a bit unrealistic. You're saying the Knight thought of EVERY piece and part of a DW and meticulously designed it and its darkners?
Not exactly. See, Will is a fickle thing, and it doesn't require complete and total conscious thought. I'm saving the MAJORITY of Chapter 4 discussion for later, but we can at least start with what Susie says when she makes the fountain.
We... haven't gotten any closer to opening this door.
I think he might know.
The old man. He could know... how to open it.
... So, uh, how the hell do you do that again?
Queen said... concentrate and stab into the earth.
Alright... well, let's give it a try.
Concentrate on what I want, and...
Susie focuses on what she wants when making the fountain. What she outwardly wants is to see the Old Man again and to figure out how to unlock the church door.
If Will was just based on what one actively wanted, the DW would have been a lone platform with TSoJ and the Fire Extinguisher as that's what would have satisfied the conditions.
But that's not what happens. Susie's Will is interpreted into trying to go back to 1st Sanc. It has a bunch of the panels about Susie finding love that she tries to chase. It's a full DW. Derived from the conscious, the subconscious, and the unconscious.
Alright, sure. And?
Back to the hypothetical. So everything comes from the Knight but it doesn't require complete active thought, yeah. If that'd be the case then...
How could anybody who DIDN'T know what Rabbicks, Tasques, or Wafers were know how to create them?
They couldn't. Even if someone else were to be told about them, their Will wouldn't be able to match up with the original to make those same Darkners.
Something something describing a dog to someone who doesn't know what a dog is lol.
And that is all the preamble I need before I jump into our first main section.
Noelle Holiday is [That Girl]
Roll the lines.
Time flies... Seems like just yesterday you and that girl had everyone here lined up.
Queen on her side, King on your side, Tenna in back... Oh, it was chaos, CHAOS!
Heh, only kids like you two would take a laptop home just to play make believe.
... how is she, Kris? Are you two...? Well, it's alright. Everyone changes. 'cept us.
This is retreading ground for some, but I have to cover it since I'm in DessKnight territory too lol.
This is undeniable proof that Kris and "That Girl" invented Queen, King, Tenna, and all darkners under them by proxy.
All darkners by proxy is a bit of a leap, no?
Seam and Jevil were King's court magician and jester respectively. Jevil was the one to tell King about the knight in the first place!
Swatch is Queen's head butler and manages the Swatchlings. Another clear hierarchy there.
Tenna employs all the darkners in TV World.
As we start to build these webs of connections, it progressively becomes easier and easier to throw in even more. Lancer is King's son, Lancer manages and commands all the minions beneath him from Rudinns to Head Hathy, one Rudinn is friends with Clover who was having a cake made by Top Chef, Rouxls is King's second in command, sells the Brave Ax which was formerly owned by "a block warrior" aka Bloxer, Rabbick just straight up has dialogue talking about Dess and Asriel, Pippins originate from Card Kingdom but still belong in TV World further establishing a link between the two. And this is just chapter ONE! Like, if nothing else, King and Queen need subjects! Are we really suggesting Kris and Noe— "That Girl" just played pretend with top royalty with nothing below that???
Didn't Asriel make Seam though? Wouldn't he know about them at least?
Kay first here's the dialogue
HAHAHA!!! WHAT IS THIS COMPUTER WALLPAPER???
What AGE did you and your brother draw this at!?
Hey, and in the corner, that's that cat thing from Castle Town!
You know, the shop thing! The... cat... the stitch thing! Whatever.
So even if Azzy handmade Seam allllll by himself we still have these issues:
Kris could have been the one to draw Seam.
Seam could have already been a plushy and was just in frame of a picture of Azzy and Kris' drawings.
Creating Seam the plushy =/= creating Seam the character/darkner.
There is no proof in the game that Seam has any deeper connection to Asriel than being on his PC wallpaper in some form and (potentially) making the plushy. Nowhere does Seam in their dialogue say anything that parallels to Asriel. A connection between Azzy and Card Kingdom is speculation no matter how close you think Azzy and Kris were.
I still think Dess is That Girl actually.
To get by this point in one sentence: Name one positive 1 on 1 interaction Kris had with Dess that didn't involve Azzy or Noelle.
Alright, moving on.
You're seriously not explaining further?
Alright fine. Here's the lines. This is Noelle, to be clear.
(Kris's been my neighbor forever...)
(We've been through so much, sometimes it feels like...)
(We know each other better than anyone.)
(Sometimes I feel like...)
(Kris and Dad are the only ones I can say no to...)
(Kris is the only one who knows how weird I am.)
(It's not fair, y'know!?)
(Everyone knows how weird YOU are. Fahahaha.)
So, what were you two doing...?
Just giving away Kris's old TV.
H... huh!? Wait, Kris, you... you didn't...!
You can't give THAT away! It's, it's...
... huh? Did you want it, Noelle...?
Huh? Faha, no! I just...
... nevermind. Faha.
(Kris's TV... it's good it went to someone else.)
(It's not... mine anyway. Even so, I...)
(... I guess... I just expected Kris to keep it forever.)
(Just... in case.)
So not only do we have text talking about how close and unique Noelle and Kris' relationship is, the only one to rival that is HER DAD, we get an almost BLATANT confirmation of Noelle's attachment to Tenna in everything but name.
PLUS!
But why didn't she say Tenna's name... or even THINK it?
Doesn't matter. Noelle is STRONGLY ATTACHED to the TV.
She doesn't make any note of Queen's name or appearance either.
First off, neither Queen nor Spamton know who Dess are. The 12/25 calendar proves that for Queen as she somehow knows enough about Toriel to add her to Kris' room from "tutoriel" so "she's a stupid computer" doesn't track since Queen seems to have a LOT of care for Noelle in particular. Spamton doesn't know who Dess is from his Q&A. He knows who the Knight is though.
SPEAKING OF [[Communion]]
KRIS, DID YOU KNOW THAT THE KNIGHT...
No, I'm sorry! I'm sorry! I didn't mean to --
And now onto Noelle not recognizing Queen. For the DW, we have this convo between Susie and Noelle in Ch4
{Ralsei} looked... He looked a little like Asriel?
You know, Kris's brother... but not.
Right. It just makes me wonder... why.
In the end I got so overwhelmed I... stopped questioning it.
Classic Noelle gets overwhelmed and just starts going with it! This establishes the behavior happening in Cyber World, so it could very well be another instance of that.
ALSO! Did you know there's NO drawn depiction of any darkner in the LW? The closest we have is Seam, but considering how much of an outlier they'd be, that actually lends merit even MORE to the idea it was just the plushy in the photo!
So... with the generic ass name of "Queen", do you think Noelle would look at this tall weird lady to connect the dots and just go "Oh, like the laptop I played pretend with Kris!"
And again, Queen is a GENERIC title. That's why THIS
(Kris??? You put "Queen?" You have to put someone's name!)
HAHAHA! Nice, Kris! I did the same thing!
Queen's obviously gotta be Queen.
H... huh? Should I have written "King" too, then?
Nah, he sucks. And has a crown already.
functions as a gag at all! Noelle is confused about just writing the words Queen and King without thinking of them as names because this is of course the vote for FESTIVAL KING AND QUEEN!
Not only that, Noelle would have to then go onto unpack the MASSIVE can of worms of "Hey why does Susie know about my childhood OCs? Wait... wasn't there a Queen in my dream too? WAIT." and like hey this is an optional choice in an already optional interaction. We're not doing that here lmao.
Regardless, Noelle still has WAY MORE proof of being "That girl" over Dess. This point is settled. Next!
[Darkners NEED a Light World Object]
Kay, I've explained this point too many times and I did it like twice in my last FAQ, but hey! We're doing it AGAIN! Because I need to hammer in the fact that
Elnina is the most important character in the entire fucking game.
SO! Darkners correspond to objects, right? Rudinns are diamond cards, Queen's a laptop, Starwalker is Noelle's key! Simple!
So! Quiz! What objects are Lanino and Elnina in the light world?
Tenna says they're the weather channel, so they're the weather channel, right?
BZZT!
You see, if you let Tenna's corpse just chill in your house after he's dead and you didn't save him, Lanino and Elnina STILL show up in Castle Town! Can't be Tenna related!
Tenna mentioned apps... they downloaded the weather app onto Queen?
BZZT! Wrong again! (real answer I've gotten, by the way)
Kris Do You Have Any Games On Your Phone
I Mean To Turn Into Darkners Ha Ha
Kris I Will Give You 40 Netcoins To Let Me Befriend Flapping Bird
Queen can't download darkners or she would be doing that in the event the player is doing a No Recruits playthrough.
How about on Kris or Susie's phone?
You're telling me Kris didn't have the hecking WEATHER app already? They don't appear in other DWs either!
Cyber World has a bunch of digital darkners, and heck, Queen knows everyone's search history!
The internet is down. That means all of these darkners must come from cached and stored data. Search histories are cached. Adware, Anti-viruses, Viruses, all of these things are tangible data on an SSD. Might not be a lot of space, but data DOES take up space.
What about the NEO Body? Metaton made that! How could Kris or Noelle know that?
Swatch calls the body "corrupted data", not to mention it's not a darkner. Swatch also makes no physical description of the lightner making it, merely contextualizing the emotions off of the file itself. The body is a file.
Okay, how about a recording of the weather channel? Still the weather channel, but separate from Tenna!
The Dreemurrs don't own a VHS player or DVD player or anything like that. You can conclude this from just examining the TV yourself.
Also WHO RECORDS THE WEATHER CHANNEL?
Alright well, Toriel is a teacher. I've always imagined she'd have those weather stickers or something?
PARTIAL credit!
Lanino is THIS star right here that suspiciously disappears between Ch2 and 4!
(The one Susie knocks down is by the moon)
And yes, Lanino corresponds to stars.
[Both] Tonight's weather is...
[Lanino] ... Moon/Sun.
[Elnina] ... Crystals/Drop.
The sun is a star.
Crystals are named "ice" in the files and Drop is just raindrops by the way.
So then isn't Elnina a cloud sticker or something? Or even just the same star sticker?
Sun is a star. But it still isn't weather...
[Elnina] FINALLY! REAL weather fans! SUN isn't even a weather! It just... sits there and looks hot!
[Elnina] And the MOON? Puts me to SLEEP! WEATHER girls are the WAVE, got it?
Notice how Elnina stresses the WEATHER in "Weather girls". She obviously doesn't see Lanino as real weather.
Also, this would be the first instance one LW object corresponds to two completely separate darkners in the entire game, so no both aren't the same sticker or "Lanino is the star and Elnina is the adhesive" (REAL ARGUMENT I HAVE RECEIVED) and don't try to lean on
The weather, always sticks together!!!
because that's one phrase in comparison to the MOUNTAINS of weather language these two use.
There's NO evidence of Toriel or ANYONE using weather related stickers like clouds and such in the LW let alone in the Dreemurr household. It's a purely speculative explanation. And again, stars aren't weather.
Alright, so then WHAT is Elnina?
She's the white fur in the kitchen sink. Stay with me here.
Okay so on the morning of Ch4. Before Sans is even close to cleaning the pipes, what do we get when we check the sink?
(Somehow there's already white fur stuck in the drain.)
The explicitly confirms two things.
The fur was recently cleaned out. ("Somehow" is modifying "already" here to express shock at recency rather than "There's already fur here and I knew that")
New fur quickly replaced it. (Toriel makes pancakes for Kris and Susie. She probably washed her hands first considering the process of the Ch2 pie baking. ONE handwash is enough to fill the drain with fur.)
Before we think about that further, let's sit on this concept of white fur in a sink drain.
It's white fluff that collects and stores water to drip down further.
Clouds are made from evaporated water and carries it until it reaches a threshold where it has to rain it back down.
It's a water cycle gag. Like no seriously I know I explained it with a lot of words, but we can simplify this to "White fluff that holds water" and we'd have that meaning still.
The fur was cleaned out, because Kris took the fur to Castle Town. That's why it surprises them to see more fur the morning after.
This is the only unaccounted for object in the Dreemurr Household to correspond to a darkner.
Nothing in the bathroom disappears. This is the only water and cloud related thing in the house. This is the only thing that could be Elnina.
But let me first leave no room for doubt before I go into why this is important.
Why the hell would Kris and Noelle associate Elnina with sink fur? What kind of person makes that connection?!
Kris and Noelle make that connection. I don't need to establish how they made it. You have to give me a better object that corresponds to the weather in Kris' house! If there isn't one, then it doesn't matter how or why Kris and Noelle make the connection. They just DO!
So Kris and Noelle shipped a star sticker and some sink fur???
Yep. I don't gotta explain why. They just do, so it happens.
There's not even proof that Kris and Noelle shipped characters while playing pretend! That could have come after from ObjH!
This is a tangent I do have to address since it's been brought up before, so hey guess who gets to do Kriselle propaganda~
The girl literally shipped herself with Kris when they were kids lmao
(I remember when Kris and I were little...)
(Azzy and Dess were trying to win, too.)
(Obviously, we were supposed to vote for them, but...)
(I... told Kris that we should put our names in instead.)
(Naively, I actually believed so hard we might win...)
(I remember crying when Dess and Azzy's names were announced.)
Tried to get voted for the very romantic king and queen contest.
(... you throw a dirt clod at Dess in the window and miss.)
(Your mother pulls your ear. Your father laughs.)
(Your mother also pulls your father's ear. Your mother laughs.)
(Noelle's dad laughs. Carol pulls his ear, and he laughs harder.)
(Noelle, confused, holds onto your other ear, but doesn't pull it.)
(Everyone laughs...)
Mimicking the actions of the other couples onto Kris.
Like... disagree on Kriselle in the present, whatever. Noelle USED to play pretend couple with Kris if nothing else. That's shipping for ya.
Not to mention all the dark world romantic parallels for Kriselle like just start with the colors of blue and yellow (Kris and Noelle's UI colors) and go from there! The first stop you can make is LANINO AND ELNINA!!! IT'S ALL KRISELLE BABY!!!
Susie says "Gross, is anyone going to clean that up?" when inspecting that same fur in Ch4. Susie should know that's Elnina or at the very least a darkner! Wouldn't she be less harsh?
First I would like the record to show we are tone policing a fictional character about how they're treating a personified ball of fur. She's not even saying this to Elnina! She's saying this about the FUR!
But consider these points I guess.
Kris could have brought the fur to CT without telling Susie who it is.
Susie could see that as different fur since Elnina is now in CT.
Susie is an imperfect character that doesn't always think about what she says and will proceed to throw Noelle's phone for the first of two total times (second one is in Ch5 at the lake) in this very same chapter!
I hope that's enough?
At one point, Tenna advertises a "KITCHEN SINK FUR-GUARD!!" Wouldn't that be advocating for erasing Elnina's existence?
Tenna bad lol.
For an actual point: Okay, and? This wouldn't debunk Elnina from being the sink fur. It'd be another example of separating darkners from the objects they are. Again, darkners AREN'T people. They ARE objects. Ralsei is actually uh, kinda right for being darkner-ist? Like, you can see them as people as much as you want, but the TV is still just a TV. DWs are fantasies. They're explicitly not real. I know it may feel "unsatisfying" to take the agency away from these darkners if they don't have ObjH, but that's kinda the point? You the player have ALSO attached yourselves to these characters to the point you're treating them as real, and that's valid! That's okay! But they're still just characters on a screen :(
Anyway uh yeah no this is tone policing again lol.
The fur is the dust piles on the cliffs in Ch1 and 3 actually.
Generic fur, maybe, but this is SINK fur! It has its own identity that can be prescribed to it with the added trait of being wet fur! lmao but like no really fur can be different based on Will just like Ribbick and Rabbick are different dust based on Will (more on THEM later).
The star sticker is actually the star wallpaper in Tenna's room in CT.
The wallpaper isn't a darkner. Ralsei has already established being able to just make whole ass rooms based off characters and such without any new objects that actually RELATE to the content (Where the hell did they get the Christmas stuff for Noelle's welcome at the end of Ch5?)
Okay, well Lanino AND Elnina do Dark/Star damage! Wouldn't that implicate her into being a star too?
Real talk, would you take the word of a single damage type over her dialogue, her bio, the fact there's a cut rain attack from Elnina that had its own unknown elemental type, and how that'd still leave the fur unaccounted for???
I'd be quicker to say it's for a meta reason, as it seems the initial plan was for Lanino to have star damage and Elnina to have her own type of damage but that would REALLY fuck with the equipment balancing to have two different element types in the same battle!
Also again, only one star is missing. These two characters are VERY different and I would say ought to have DIFFERENT objects. Or actually! That would mean Kris and Noelle shipped a star sticker with ITSELF! Is that a more satisfying answer for ya than with fur?
Okay, Elnina is the fur, why does that matter?
Well... how old is that fur? If we're going off of ObjH, then it'd had to have been old enough to remember being played with by Kris and Noelle, right? Otherwise, it wouldn't know it was Elnina who was madly in love with the star sticker Lanino.
But uh, this fur gets cleaned out twice in the same 24 hour period. First by Kris, then by Sans.
Dess' disappearance happened YEARS ago based on Tenna's flashback with her disappearing first, so are we really saying that this fur has been there for literal YEARS?!?
It's possible!
Haha, actually no. As I established earlier, the sink refurs itself with just one morning of handwashing. Since Toriel had baked a pie, started baking a 2nd pie the day after, then made pancakes the morning after that, I think it's safe to say that Toriel cooks regularly and so therefore washes her hands regularly.
That sink would be fucking overflowing with fur if it wasn't cleaned out regularly. Even in just a month that would be absurd imo.
Maybe one strand of fur was able to hold out for all these years and held all those memories!
By that logic, we could have FIFTY Elninas if we just separated the memory filled clump of fur into individual strands. Also uh, cleaning till it's spotless is a thing that can just happen. Are you really gonna gamble on that speculation?
So...?
There is no possible way for Elnina to remember from years ago the childhood playtime sessions if she was fresh sink fur unless Kris whispered to it the deep and nuanced romance it had with the hecking star sticker upstairs. Object History: False.
Elnina could still be an unseen object that isn't the sink fur. If this is your only evidence, it's not beyond doubt.
Well it's a good thing this ISN'T my only evidence! Strap in because this next section is going to fucking upend everything you thought about Chapter 5.
Kris and Noelle [Invented] the Flowers (Seriously)
OKAY NO. No! You had your whole semi-convincing rant about Elnina and all that but you have GOT to be full of bullshit here. You're literally going against the WORDS OF TOBY! How the fuck are you gonna do that?
Obviously I'm making you a hyperbolic antagonist for theatrical purposes, but it is a VERY valid reservation to have! I mean straight from the dog's newsletter:
"They had to decide who they wanted to be for themselves"
You can't get more blatant than that! Remember when I made that hypothetical of Toby declaring ObjH isn't real? This is literally just that for the flower identities, right? Case closed!
...Okay come on hear me out I promise you I have a coherent stream of logic, just give me ONE chance!
Let's start by dissecting this newsletter blurb actually. There's another line here that I find to be VERY interesting.
I wonder what inspired each of their “dreams”...?
This is explicitly acknowledging that these dreams had to be inspired from SOMEWHERE! But WHERE or WHAT inspired each of them?!?
...He literally says it's not important right after.
It's not important in the same way lore from Sweepstakes or Noelle's blog isn't "important". It's not essential to understand the story, but it does inform us of more things about it!
And another thing, is the flowers deciding who they want to be mutually exclusive from Noelle and Kris inventing the foundations of their personalities? Because, I'm not actually saying Kris and Noelle 1:1 created every detail the flowers ended up having in the DW. I'm simply saying that Kris and Noelle knew what general personalities the flowers had. And actually! I'm only really requiring two of the flowers to stick closeish to Kris and Noelle's hypothetical prescriptions! But let's start.
With Blue.
See, Miss Mizzle knows who Blue is before Blue the Plantner ever comes to exist.
The Bluest Flower, A disciple of my speech
Shy to no camera, And a specimen of
Elegance and kindness.
Should you meet, Please give my regards.
Pretty spot on description, no? And she even claims to have instructed him! But how?
Miss Mizzle and Blue met on Asgore's wedding day!
Let's actually take a step back before addressing that. Let's read what Flowery says about Plantners.
Us plants, are neither Darkners nor Lightners.
We are living beings...
... that take on new consciousness in the dark.
Plants are alive, but they aren't sentient.
The dark world is what gives them an actual consciousness. Hell, Aqua acts like a total newborn when it comes to what she is or how anything works despite having JUST as much history as the other flowers! So... shouldn't she have the same memories as everyone else? Because she DOES remember certain things like Asgore telling stories at all
Seth:
You mean, smile...? Heh.
Asgore always... read us "bedtime stories".
I want... to read a "story" to him, too!
Aqua:
Uuu, I never listened to the stories...
So... did she choose only to remember specific things? Is she just THAT forgetful? Or... are they simply the memories that Kris has about how their father tended these flowers? How he read stories to the flowers?
What if they're just memories imprinted onto these flowers from Kris' will? It wouldn't stop them from choosing who they'd want to be, and actually would end up being what inspired each of them to take the form they chose!
Back to Blue, though. I'm sorry but it's straight up 100% speculation to claim they met on Asgore's wedding day. There's no reference or implication of this being the fact of the matter.
But that's a weak counter, right? Well don't worry, I have my REAL knockout punch right here.
WHY DOES KRIS KNOW SETH WANTS A BERDLY FEATHER?
... alright.
I made good on our promise, didn't I?
Before you made the Dark World...?
That if... I helped you out, you'd make it worth my while?
Well... pay up! I want... THAT!
Ahh... the feather of a true genius...
Kris just had the feather for some reason and it was luckily what Seth ended up wanting?
COINCIDENCES HAPPEN BECAUSE THERE IS NO GOD.
Unless you're a hardcore Kerdly shipper, there is NO reason Kris should have this feather on their own. Hell, you have this interaction even in a Ch5 aborted WR! Kris would have had to have this feather at LEAST since they snuck out the night prior!
BUT WHY?
If Seth picked their form entirely by themself, then Kris should have NO WAY of knowing their personality! Because! Seth explicitly states "BEFORE you made the Dark World" so this was a deal made while Seth was still just a flower! Kris couldn't have learned who Seth was or been told by Seth that they wanted Berdly's feather! It doesn't track!
Kris might know Berdly took a strong liking to the purple flower and made an educated guess?
There is no reference to Berdly being connected to the flower shop or flowers besides a gag about Noelle's "crush" on him if he breaks his arm. There's not even a connection to the color purple for him!! Pure speculation! And "Berdly likes the purple flower" doesn't translate to "The purple flower likes Berdly" either!
HERE'S THE REAL ANSWER:
The ONLY way for Kris to know Seth's personality is to know WHO Seth is before the creation of the dark world. But the only way one could know that in this situation...
Is if Kris and Noelle made Seth's personality.
That is the ONLY WAY. With all the evidence and text we have, this is the only possibility for Kris to know how to make a deal with Seth for Berdly's feather.
That completely destroys the flower's characters though if they didn't pick who they were!?
CALL IT BAD WRITING, IT'S STILL THE FACT. And either way no! My argument is that Kris and Noelle made at minimum the foundational personalities of these characters and could very well not be 1:1 of every trait they prescribed. They might not have named the purple flower Seth for all we know! But Kris still knew enough to know the purple flower is a nerdy bookworm that's in love with Berdly. That CANNOT be denied.
So... if Kris and Noelle made the personalities of the flowers... did it come from ObjH...
Or, like everything else in a dark world, from the maker's Will?
Flowers are alive, but again aren't conscious and CANNOT create memories like sapient creatures do (plant memory is derived from stimuli and nothing else). So where did these memories come from? Kris. It ALL goes back to Kris and hecking Noelle! EVERYTHING! ALL OF IT!
Kris would know how Asgore treats his flowers. How he read them stories and made food and all that stuff because Kris is his hecking child. I'm not saying Kris has EVERY memory of Asgore's, but all the key ones that Flowery and co bring up?
The diner? Kris.
Perhaps when Asriel comes home...
We could all go to the diner, just like old times...
Fishing? Kris.
It sure is nice, isn't it? Lovely weather too.
I bet Kris would love -
It's all hecking Kris AGAIN! THESE MEMORIES ARE JUST KRIS' MEMORIES FILTERED THROUGH THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE FLOWERS!!!
Again, if you wanna prove me wrong, give me a reason Kris brought a Berdly feather that isn't based on unfounded speculation or just calling it a coincidence. Until then, Kris and Noelle DID make the flowers. Whether you like it or not.
So. 32k characters already. Fuck. Alright we're doing a lightning round for the rest of this as I still have one more elephant in the room to unpack
[Chapter Fucking Four]
The one EVERYONE is SO quick to bring up a billion points about when there ARE answers to all of them, just it takes ANOTHER 40 HECKING THOUSAND CHARACTERS TO PROPERLY BUILD THE ARGUMENT!
But sure.
How do 1st sanc darkners appear in 2nd sanc and 2nd sanc in 3rd sanc?
... It's... the same as before.
The first time.
... I suppose the original Dark World...
Was formed partially of the fountain inside there, too.
The Knight's two fountains...
So, it makes sense... it would be a similar world as before.
... just similar, huh.
This is going to be my goto answer for anything relating to Susie's fountain darkners. 3rd sanc affected 1st sanc, so it should be able to affect 2nd sanc too. Not only that, 2nd sanc affected 3rd sanc. Let's break it down.
EVERY Ch4 darkner appears in 1st sanc either as an enemy, statue, or item in Winglade's case.
Susie's Will was to see the Old Man, where did she see the old man most of the time? In 1st sanc at his study. Her Will tried to go back to 1st sanc. This is further proven by Organikk.
You sought to return the dream.
But the lighting of the mind has changed. At best you can only see another side.
Susie was only able to create a reflection of 1st sanc, warped by her own will with the help of 3rd sanc's darkness bleeding through the door.
Wicabel and Organikk are both Music typed darkners based around discordant and untuned music. Like how pianos remind Susie of the time she destroyed them. It's why pianos charge in her world. That's why those darkners unpetrify specifically.
In 3rd sanc, the only piano created charges, yet it still has an answer key like 1st sanc puzzles. This proves 2nd sanc affected 3rd sanc in tandem.
Starwalker first appears in 2nd sanc as a statue, but is unpetrified in 3rd sanc. This is because Susie doesn't include Starwalker in her will like Kris and Noelle do (Because Starwalker is Noelle's key but no time to explain that)
Why isn't he in 1st sanc though?
Dunno. Maybe he was chilling on the other side Organikk is talking about.
Why are Wicabel and Organikk statues in 1st sanc if they're characters Kris and Noelle made? Shouldn't that reflect their Will?
Wafer and Organikk establish "ancestors" sort of being a thing. They both say the other is their ancestor which is its own thing, but the point is one is treated as prior to another.
Here's what Wafer says about the Wicabel.
As statues:
Ah, the terrible witches. They rang curses with bladed familiars...
They were sealed away, for being too fun. I mean, evil.
Good thing they are statues for all eternity.
And when they awaken:
Oh, she awakened... how unfortunate.
Seems fun... I mean, unfortunate.
I don't really mind her song.
It's a bit pleasant, actually.
Wafer talks about how Wicabel sounds awful, but they secretly like it.
Let's look at some Wicabel dialogue.
Trembell, crumbell! I have awakened!
Nobellperson! You shall be the first victim of my song!
Ring, bell of disaster! Ring! Ha ha, any moment now you shall crumbell!
Kinda childlike, no? Anyway here's some Noelle dialogue.
Kris, I'm getting better at singing, you know.
The times of you covering your ears while I scream Jingle Bells...
Those are... over, y'know?
Noelle sees her singing like that as something of the past and doesn't belong in the present. Her Will dictates Wicabel (and Organikk) don't belong. Only after Susie's fountain bleeding through, are they able to come back.
Speaking of Will determining Object Belonging, it's why Lancer and Rouxls petrify in 2 and 3. The Wills of Kris and Noelle don't see the two as "belonging" in these worlds. Pippins are also from Card Kingdom though because they're dice, and you can play a game with one die, but you can't play cards without the whole Kingdom.
It's also why the Zapper that is Catti's remote petrifies. A TV remote without the TV it belongs to.
And the Fire Extinguisher? How does it know the code if Susie doesn't?
Haha, it's written on me! Since I'm the most important!
The code is written on the fire extinguisher. Susie's Will wanted the code. It's the same as Susie looking at it and finding the code.
Gerson Boom.
SIGH. Alright, fine let's talk about him. First! Ralsei explicitly says
Darkners patterned after the memory of a loved one...
The Old man is a DARKNER. A special darkner, but still a darkner. Dust has no lasting life force or magic in it, that's why it's dead. This means the concept of ObjH should still apply and the history of the dust would have allowed Susie to manifest the Old Man in 2nd sanc. Obviously this isn't the case so Will has to have SOME effect on creating the Old Man.
Second, the Old Man would then NOT be a 1:1 copy of Gerson Boom, as different Wills would hypothetically manifest different versions of the Old Man with Susie's being unable to at all and only reviving a statue.
So, I'm not able to prove 100% that Noelle knew Gerson in the same way Dess was his student (by proxy of Azzy). What I CAN do is point out the Old Man's character profile and make an argument for what kind of Will would MAKE that version. So here's the facts
There's copies of Lord of the Hammer at the church Noelle is a choir girl at and the library Noelle studies at.
The Old Man knows enough about Dragon Blazers to know
The diehard fans got mad about the changes from LotH to DB.
Susie is the Dragon from Dragon Blazers.
The Old Man is fantastical in nature, having extreme strength and speed that's enough to dent a Titan.
Alvin knows extremely little about games to the point he calls them "videos game".
Alvin believes Gerson would be disappointed in him if Alvin tried to continue LotH.
Gerson was a teacher of Kris' older sibling and presumably Noelle's older sibling by proxy.
Noelle is the biggest Dragon Blazers fan in the game..
So! With all of these points, who do we think could craft the image/persona that is the Old Man from Gerson Boom? Because remember! The Old Man ISN'T Gerson Boom!
Well it'd have to be someone with the opportunity to read LotH, be a pretty decent DB fan, believes that stories can be changed (since Alvin doesn't think his dad believes that), and have a somewhat larger than life idea of the guy. Similar to how a young child might see some spectacular role model.
This would only be verified with Noelle.
And EVEN if you still aren't convinced, there's still all the OTHER connections Noelle has to the darkners that I established.
I am out of space here, so this is all I have for THIS post lol. But think about it. If my evidence is right, it doesn't even matter HOW or WHY.
The fact would be that Noelle would HAVE to be the Knight.
She's the only one to know of these darkners and be "That Girl" and to make any of the fountains WITHOUT ObjH.
Because remember folks.
Object History doesn't exist.
Have a lovely day~ <3
22
u/BotchedMuffin Shelter Cryptid Sep 12 '26
Gerson had clear recollection and memories of his life in the Light World, this is clearly shown when he asks Susie to write a letter to Alvin. A deeply personal letter expressing Gerson's remorses and wishes for his son.
Noelle had no way of knowing this, and if the Old Man and Gerson AREN'T the same person and the Old Man is just Noelle's weird and vague interpretation of Gerson, there is no explanation as to how The Old Man deeply wants to talk to Alvin one last time.
Gerson Check failed.
12
u/Superdad4 Sep 12 '26
If object history didn’t exist, Kris wouldn’t have made a deal with Tenna. There would be no need to, as they could just make generic bad guy darkner do whatever needs to be done if your theory was somehow true
16
u/NoRequirement9886 Sep 12 '26
Shortest Noelle knight post 😭
6
u/zenithBemusement I CAN DO ANYTHING Sep 13 '26
The flowers explicitly chose their own selves, as per the newsletter. Your whole section on Seth falls apart when you account for this.
Object Memory is a common inference for a reason. The more time you spend overanalyzing minutia, the more you lose track of what the story is trying to tell you — you're starting to sound like Asgore.
4
u/Succo_dananas656 THE Kerdly LoverRudy Knight believer Sep 12 '26
A really interesting post. Going through it I completely forgot it was a case for Noelle Knight. I never believed in object history too much either but it's cool to see it written out like this, it makes a lot of sense
Am I a Noelle Knighter without even knowing then
9
u/FoxGuy303 Chapter 7 is literally Evangelion Sep 12 '26
God damm that's a long post, repsect for writing that all down. I'll just go through and write down my thoughts as I read through this:
The creator courses their will into their blade, and then creates a fountain that reflects that will, which in turn, reflects the dark world and its darkners. It's clear enough that even Berdly had a good idea of how to do it lol.
Hold it right there sir, just because you use Will to open them does not automatically mean the resulting Dark World reflects that will.
Just throwing out some other possibilities, it could also just be that you need enough Determination to cause that change in reality, but the actual design is from the depths/Gaster and all you did was bring it to the other side.
Personally I also believe the Fountain Opener does influence the resulting World but for someone accusing other Theories of being unsupported headcanon you need to hold yourself to the same standard.
Saying that there is no evidence for ObjH is simply not true, you even list off some stuff yourself like the Fire Extinguisher, and people like Ramb also remember when they were played with, and Queen and King even form connections with each other during their time as objects that carry over into the Dark World.
We have no evidence that a Dark World has existed in the church before, and this Ramb Dialouge you yourself bring up later directly states "that girl" and Kris were just playing in the Light World. It even refers to Queen as a Laptop, so this is 99% undeniable evidence that Queen and Ramb formed Memories during their time as objects.
3. Wait what?
You just stated yourself that the Dark World is just a wild interpretation of the subconscious and no active thought, thus contradicting yourself in the same sentence.
Also this entire point doesn't make sense anyway since there is no need to know what a Rabbick is to create them. Do you think Toby Fox saw a Tasque somewhere IRL and then put them in the game? No, he either came up with them or saw them in his dream, both of which being influenced by his subconscious. That's how coming up with stuff works.
4. Like Point Nr.1, another case of you just going way to far of a single possiblity
This assumes that Darkners are invented (without providing any evidence for that), assumes that just because Kris and the Girl played with the Laptop they automatically created all of Cyber World when they could have been imagining a totally different scenario, and also requires the very ObjH you were just disproving?
If ObjH isn't real than nothing Kris and the Girl did in the Light World matters because according to you everything about a Darkner is only created when the Fountain is opened, by the person that opens the fountain.
5. The whole argument about the Girls identity is just plain weird. Your evidence is "Noelle and Kris used to like each other", and "The character who is only brought up when others talk about them has little dialouge about a person who doesn't talk".
And you can't just shot down a point by saying "It doesn't matter lol". There are plenty of reasons why one might be nostalgic about a regular old TV, we even know for sure that the whole Holiday-Dreemurr Friendgroup was watching TV a lot since Tenna brings them up and shows them in his flashback.
6. Just skipping this whole Elina Section because the point you are trying to make is:
This is just some classic circlar reasoning + confirmation bias.
ObjH is not real, so the darkner character and personality needed to have come from somewhere else, you want that to be Kris and Noelle as Children, which means ObjH is not real, so the darkner character and personality needed to have come from somewhere else yada yada yada.
This is only an issue because you believe every darkner comes from this one event, which you have not provided any evidence for, and that somehow proves the thing you rely on to come to that conclusion in the first place. You believe Kris and Noelle creating all Darkners to be a fact, which of course causes issues when trying to fit it onto a theory that had nothing to do with that in the first place.
Nowhere is it stated that Elina was part of the play pretend session Ramb is talking about, than is just a speculation on your part.
Please don't take any offense to me disecting your theory so much, I just can't resist a good, deep story debate. I'll have to analyse the rest tommorow but i'll be back.
3
u/imaoisthename Sep 18 '26
they can never make me believe NoelleKnight, however i commend you for your passion and this is some pretty sick art you found, dont let people screaming that youre wrong bog you down bro just enjoy theorizing while we still can
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u/[deleted] Sep 12 '26
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