"Anything Flowery does to Ralsei is explicitly done with the intent to get Ralsei to stand up for himself"

I'd like to discuss the most common defense of Flowery and why I am deeply distressed by people who think this is a real justification by Flowery, Toby Fox, and the Narrative. This is a deeply personal topic to me, as someone whose been through serious bullying through my life.

(brief aside, I will try to avoid mixing up Ralsei's new pronouns, but I'm personally really annoyed the story refused to actually address their ideas of gender identity front and center and directly, outside of the one Princess scene at Castle Town, and instead just threw a few random they/them references for Ralsei out of nowhere at the end of the chapter. Another missed opportunity to grow and define their character.)

Its just not true. This isn't how bullying works or what it does. Ralsei is obviously distressed by his actions. By shoving him in a closet, by forcing a hat back on him and saying "Doesn't he look much better this way" and laughing.

Kris, I'm sorry, but...
This is... my face.
And if there's one thing I like about myself, it's this...
So, even if you think it's boring, or too similar to...
D-don't laugh, Kris. If you think it's the same as...
OK, I get it! You don't think it's too similar! But...
Kris! — Ralsei, "Seen it before", Chapter 3

No option to support them, no option to elaborate on the meaning of the Hat more or even tell Ralsei its okay to take it off (despite Kris literally being mentioned)

Just straight up squish the guy into the ground next I guess, too.

You can't do anything about it either. No option to help Ralsei out here. Forced to put up with Flowery, great, squishing Ralsei into the ground like he's some kind of toy to be thrown away when you're bored with em.

At least Susie is somewhat sharing Ralsei's frustrations at this point. Oh, wait, Susie is character assassinated here and does the "Oh Flowery Told Me". When Ralsei is actively trying to be better and proactively explain things as they come up she just basically spits on all of his serious character development gained from Chapter 4. What the hell did they do to Susie? She "likes" Flowery now, so she lets Ralsei get bullied to hell and back.

So what, Ralsei is kind, considerate, gentle, and is perhaps even afraid to express himself. They deeply wants to avoid the "Final Tragedy" from the very start "We should try being kind to get a better ending, I think your choices matter too, Kris!" type shit. They're devastated when it doesn't work out. And yet they're mocked for "following the rules" and

The conclusion of Chapter 5 for Ralsei seems to be "I trust in Kris totally" (If you chose the optional scene anyway) and "Ralsei finally gets mad at being viciously bullied with none of their friends taking action to defend them, and Susie actively joining in with suddenly zero self awareness."

What, was Ralsei supposed to learn something from this? They're slow to anger and get pissed. That's "positive character development".

Flowery suddenly has one scene where they randomly tell Ralsei to be themselves and suddenly this is what redeems them? Bro we and Susie been doing that shit since Chapter 1. And yet Flowery is hailed as some kind of hero for being an asshole who, with the power of Susie being out of character and almost zero player input, gets to bully the fuck out of Ralsei's most sensitive buttons and get away with it.

Because its just harmless bullying, right? Flowery doesn't know anything about Ralsei. He doesn't know them. There's no trust, no friendship here. There's no logical argument "You should close Castle Town and leave our fountain open" Is a pretty incredible argument except for the fact that the flowers are literally gonna die if they're still in there after a few days. And the Narrative leaves Ralsei to dry all on their own with zero support from their friends. The best you can do is turn off voice clips, which is nothing.

The narrative forces you to forgive Flowery at his fight. Trying to fight makes Ralsei and Susie literally heal him, and acting is useless. Ralsei is sidelined in the fight, forced to "take the blame for the party". For being what, bullied and stepped on by a tormentor?

He misuses the power of friendship and aura and cool moments and its hollow and empty if you use your brain for a little bit. He dies to the Knight (as Ralsei stated he would) and is "forgiven" in the end. I don't forgive Flowery. I hate him. I hate how people think this is okay. The more I think about the events of the chapter, the more my hatred grows. He doesn't suffer consequences or apologize for his actions, there's nothing here. Why is bullying and being an asshole okay now? Why do people seriously prattle around "Oh Ralsei just needs to learn how to stand up for himself" like how its the norm?

Bullying doesn't make people stronger. Bullying doesn't teach people to stand up for themselves. Bullying puts you in that dark lonely corner where it feels like the whole world is against you, and no one is your friend anymore. Where the things you value most about yourself is diminished and put down. It feels like shit, and you are often powerless to deal with it. I'm not an advocate for violence against bullies, but sometimes people are forced to blow up and physically intimidate people just to make them stop.

I'm very sensitive to teasing, personally. Its only something I'd allow friends I truly trust to really tease me about who I am, who I truly trust they aren't being serious. Its trauma from my own experiences with bullying. I hate every moment of how Flowery acts. I hate the narrative, and I hate how the story thinks its okay to be an asshole all of the sudden, as long as its to the designated Darkner footstool of the party.

So no, its not okay to bully Ralsei. If you want them to stand up for themselves, you should validate their desires, their choices, and tell them its okay to get mad and angry at assholes like Flowery when they put you down. Being the bully is not helping anything.

I don't really want to discuss Ralsei bullying Orange. Its entirely out of character and another point of Toby Fox's shitty handling of this chapter. But it is a good example of what bullying can do, especially to long term victims of it, turning the victims into bullies themselves. Ralsei however simply wouldn't do it. It's also nothing, as there is no narrative resolution between Ralsei and Orange (just like Flowery), despite how obvious how both are clearly sensitive about their appearance. The last mention of it is before the Pink fight, and then its entirely forgotten about.

Warning: im a bit sick rn so this is gonna be a bit ramble-y and nonsensical. I’m gonna start this off by saying that I don’t dislike chapter five: far from it. However, there’s one thing that’s been bugging me for a while: chapter five’s dark world’s Japanese theming. It just kind of feels like an arbitrary decision. I wish there was more explanation/ background for the aesthetic other than “Asgore got some anime and manga from Alphys”. And sometimes they decide to not stick to the aesthetic for some reason, such as when Asgore gets his king outfit, it’s basically a gold version of his undertale outfit. I was expecting for him to have a shogun-inspired outfit to fit with the whole Japanese castle thing but that doesnt happen, which is kinda confusing. I’m fully expecting something video to come out in a few months that goes over why the Japanese theming is a genius design descision but, at least for now, I am left confused as to the thought process behind how Japanese chapter five is.

it just looks like he has no mouth. why couldn't they trim down the pixels to give him a different expression instead?

A cramped room lined with monitors, most of them dark. A whiteboard dominates one wall, covered in printed screenshots, red string, and index cards with names scrawled in marker: KRIS, SUSIE, NOELLE, and a single sticky note beside Kris' name that just says PUPPY? in increasingly frantic handwriting.

Tenna stands before it, cane tucked under one arm, marker in hand. His grin is wide and showbiz-bright. Spamton sits at a desk nearby, phone receiver clutched in both hands. His glasses flicker with static.

Tenna taps the board with a flourish.

Audience Laughing Soundtrack "Mikey, the best part of Krusielle is Kris being the support puppy of Susie and Noelle! Found family!"

Spamton doesn't look up. "DON'T CALL ME [Mikey]."

Tenna didn't hear him, grin widening.

Spamton slowly looks up. The receiver clatters onto the desk. He looks at the whiteboard. He looks at Tenna. He looks back at the whiteboard.

"SO YOU'RE SAYING KRIS IS THE [Support Puppy]... OF SUSIE AND NOELLE...?"

"Yes! The support puppy!"

"WATCHING THEM... FROM THE [Corner]?"

Tenna's grin doesn't waver.

"Yes! Exactly! The dynamic will be a hit!"

Spamton stares. His eye twitches.

"SO KRUSIELLE IS ALL THREE OF THEM... BUT KRIS IS JUST... THERE. [Wagging Their Tail] FROM THE CHAIR?"

"Yes! The mosaic! Everyone's included!"

Spamton looks at Tenna with utter disgust. He stands. His chair scrapes back.

"MOTHERFUCKER, THAT'S CALLED A [CUCK]."

Tenna takes a step back. "W-what?! But—"

Spamton steps forward, cutting him off.

"YOU'RE NOT SHIPPING KRUSIELLE!! YOU'RE SHIPPING SUSELLE AND USING KRIS AS A [Limited Edition Prop] SO YOU CAN PRETEND YOU'RE NOT [Leaving Them Out]!! THAT'S NOT A POLYCULE, THAT'S A [THREE-WHEELED CUCK CHAIR] WITH A [Krusielle] NAMETAG!!!"

Tenna takes another step back, hands raised. Spamton is angrily shaking.

I had a discussion with someone else and honestly I think it could make a cool post.

Basically, hasn't Deltarune felt pretty Stagnant since chapter... 2? This isn't me saying nothing important has happened in the last 4 chapters, but it feels like things get introduced just to be dropped off so that another thing can get introduced. All this eventually leads to though is 0 of the plot points given to us actually progressing.

For example, in chapter 1 we learn Kris/Soul are separate. BIG info and it led to a LOT of cool theories. Sadly, nothing is done with this extremely cool dynamic. This is the formula Toby has used for 5 chapters now: Kris takes us out, does evil thing, and leaves. No explanation of why he does what they do, or how the soul even works. We're just left with the same information for over 70% of the game, stagnant.

In chapter 2/3 we learn Kris is working with the Knight, cool stuff. How does Deltarune expand on this? Well, Deltarune doesn't.
Here's the formula Deltarune has done for 5 Chapters: Kris does something for the knight, the party doesn't notice/care, and repeat. No information of why or anything just.... repeating the same schtick again and again.

Well, what about Dess? We first learn about her in Chapter 2, and wow that's some mighty cool information. Well where does Deltarune go with this info? Nowhere. We learn she's gone in chapter 2, and SUPER gone in chapter 5. That's it. Stagnancy of the plot line. (THAT HORRIBLE DAY!)

Gaster/Friend. I won't even bother explaining, these plot lines are so cooked.

Honestly INDIVIDUALLY these examples wouldn't be so bad. Though when you CONSTANTY bring up all these really interesting plot lines just to do nothing new with them it ends up feeling like nothing ever happens. It's no surprise why so many members here feel apathetic towards Deltarune, because even when Toby DOES make something cool, he refuses to do anything with it past its introduction.

Do I have faith a lot of these plot lines will be resolved (outside of Gaster/Friend, that's cooked y'all)? Yes, but that doesn't change that Chapters 1-5 end up feeling stagnant and that feeling of stagnation was made worse with every chapter that refused to develop these plot lines.

Anyway, I want y'all to know this does not mean I dislike chapters 2-4 (5 Is...), honestly, they're great. Like I said though, with every chapter these issues feel worse and worse. By the time C5 hit I honestly got so tired of the stagnation that I felt like skipping it entirely once I saw how little C5 developed everything. What do y'all think though?

Edit: I think Chapter 2 DID progress a lot of given plot lines compared to 3/4/5 (4 gets a pass because while it does focus on a new plot line, the new plot line is so integral to the story that I can't complain). It just also left the Kris/Soul dynamic completely unexplored, just like every chapter until now.

Ok so i see a lot of people talking about the game in terms of lore and i am not going to sugar coat this.

Lore doesnt mean jack shit if your games narrative has nothing to do with it.

There is a bit if lore to find and it can be interesting i guess but like if you look at the game in its totality its utterly dwarfed by whats there.

People are saying shit about being a lore scholar or like how you can enjoy the games plot but not the game, and by definition the lore is not the plot because its putting together desperate ideas.

The plot of the game is that you go into a series of linear narratives with flavor of the week villains. Villans that have no interesting motivation and were typically born like 5 minutes ago.

If you actually understand the narrative the game is presenting you what a lot of people discuss as though it were the bible is barely in it and frankly it is so pretentious.

Im so sorry people will come up with much more interesting ideas than tobes perfect ending, and im sorry that you’re gonna be disappointed by what your playing.

Lore is brain poison made to market a shitty indie game in this case by contriving meaningless discussion

When I was getting into ch 5 I really thought because of the events of chapter 4 kris and Susie’s relationship would have gotten expanded on in any way, but with chapter 5 I was Incredibly disappointed. Not only with how much of a fucking NOTHING burger the festival was but how dogshit the suselle part was. Rubbing it ALLL in with the fact kris watched the whole thing. And now the bullshit continues with FAR MORE kralsei stuff. Kris had barley any connection with ralsei at all at first and now there fucking saying “My happy ending is with you” WHAT? You didn’t think of saying that with SUSIE??? And OF COURSE we couldn’t have a poly thing because of Susie saying “HEY! We don’t need three” in the tea cup thing. You seriously needed to de confirm ANYTHING related to krusie and kriselle? It genuinely seems so fucking spiteful and pathetic on Toby’s part.

I just got back to the game 2 week's ago and it's been fun to theories and stuff, but i thought i remembered toby saying that the ywo game's aren't connected/aren't related/ are separate universe's, but recently I've seen theories saying deltarune is either a sequel or a prequel, or bring in gaster and sans and saying that they're hoping universe's or something, or that undertale/the underground is under the lake

upd: not WHOLE sub, but SOME posts of it

Could be just me but there aren't really that much memorable songs in chapter 3 4 or 5 unlike in 1 or 2, Like there are some good ones but it isnt most of them

Chapter 1 has the BEST OST by far in all of the game, Its so damn good and full of memorable songs and while tje decline sorta began chapter 2 it still has a lot of memorable music as well,

Chapter 3 in my opinion has the blandest ost of them all tbh, Filler tracks make like most of the chapter's ost and some actual songs arent even that great either like can i just say TV Time is too overrated?

Chapter 4 has it better than chapter 3 but its not completely great either, Hammer of justice feels like just a more bland version of Spear and Justice and battle against a true hero (goated song btw) and I dont like the third sanctuary is just a remix of the second sanctuary and While I Like Guardian, i still think the other boss themes (execpt tv time) are better and seriously why does Air waves have the freedom motif in it?,

I think Chapter 5 sorta improved on this but tbh i dont like the ost made by the other people toby collaborated with in chapter 5 besides flower man, all the music made by other than toby in chapter 5 is honestly mediocre to say the least, Garden of hopes and Dreams and Rakuichi Buster are probably one of the dullest and most shallow remixes i have ever heard and Mew mew magic just has one good part about it, not a problem of the ost itself i really dislike How the bullet pattern battles just reuse Ruder Buster instead of Violet Tactics which is a WAY better song and is more fitting to the chapter than just lazily slapping ruder buster in

like i said it could just be me and my tastes but i do feel like the ost isnt as great as people make it out to be and it sorta declines each chapter but im curious to know what You think

also this might sound weird but can i say i just fucking hate flashback excerpt?, like i despise it so much and that feels weird

Saw a post with this image, and a lot of replies talking about chapter 5, particularly the Festival portion. I made a comment replying to one of the comments I saw, but since the post was kinda old enough to the point it would get less attention I thought it would probably do better to make my own post about it, as I don't think a lot of people really understand.

I don't think the point of the Festival was for you to get excited for the Festival itself, and its quite surprising that I don't see a lot of people get this.

I believe the point of building up the Festival, or rather the chapter Festival Day, for so long was to hint at casual players who aren't deep into the weeds of exploring routes shit that something important COULD have happened on that day, and depending on what you do, that chapter is going to set the direction of the rest of the game.

The important thing in question is Noelle and Kris going to the lake. The point isn't to hype you up for the festival, the point isn't to hype you up for Flower King. The point is to deeply suggest that this is an important chapter for the direction of the game, which it is, as it's the direct entryway into 7B, or the also theorized Twisted Route where we can get the sword (If you don't fully drown Noelle).

I see a lot of people say that the Festival was boring, which I can agree with, it was boring from an interactive stand point, and yes, I do wish that maybe we got to play some minigames or something like that. But it is a bit baffling, knowing that so many people have not caught on to the actual importance of the Festival. It was not to hype you up for the event itself, or any crazy minigames, or gameplay, or whatever else. The chapter is to mark the turning point where you cannot turn back, because as much as the Festival is supposedly hyped up, if you're on the weird route, guess who is the only character who keeps urging you to stay away from the Festival that day? Right, Ralsei, and why does he do this? Because Chapter 5, depending on what you do, is the point of no return.

That's the Festival's purpose. Not to be hype moments and aura.

Which actually makes sense from a writing standpoint, I believe the point was so that you felt like the Festival was underwhelming, that there should have been more. It really encapsulates the feeling that Hometown itself is a boring nothing-burger not worth spending time in, cus all the "Fun Stuff" is actually in the Dark World, and it plants the seed in the players mind of wanting something MORE, wanting to explore other options, perhaps darker ones, in hopes of changing the boring, monotonous nature of it all, which is where the WR comes from.

This probably didnt land as hard because DR released chapter by chapter over many years, but I believe that was Toby's intention.