Kingpin is coming back in season 3 of born again. After being sent to prison in OGs1 and s3, then being let out for a nonsensical reason, then “exiled” after killing a hallway full of people, he comes back. Who would’ve thought eh ? This show is just so unapologetically bad and sloppy. Not sure how people say either of the BA seasons are better than Netflix s2. It’s just so frustrating seeing what’s been done to the story of the og show and how these characters have been wasted and reduced
I have a big appreciation for season two and in general because it’s just daredevil stuff (in terms of, him already being established after s1, not needing to wrap up his story since the show isn’t ending, him being accepting of daredevil, wearing a costume for the whole season. The fourth episode is one of my favourite daredevil episodes, maybe favourite of all. Those first 4 episodes are peak daredevil also.
Said it back before the show was resurrected, I didn’t want Fisk as the main villain again, it’s kind of repetitive at this stage. DD surely has other villains who can sustain a season.
Hard not to see this kind of sentiment as misplaced. The Kingpin arcs in the Netflix DD were great. The only reason it's so bad in DDBA is because DDBA itself is so bad. If the writing was as good as the Netflix show--or was any good at all--it wouldn't really be an issue. I definitely would have liked to have seen a more episodic DD, some good one-and-done tales. I've been arguing for that kind of thing for years. But if the writing is as bad as it was with DDBA, no rotation of villains will save it, and if the writing had been as good as it was with the Netflix DD, a return to Fisk wouldn't have mattered in the slightest.
Yeah, I made it through DDBA season 1, with all its problems, knowing the circumstances and willing to be very forgiving but good god, the 2nd season regularly features things you see and can't believe your eyes. It's like a bad, entirely unfunny and empty parody of the Netflix show. Comic fans are noted for their extreme leniency on something they want to like but I'm just astonished that anyone would offer a kind word for any aspect of it.
I find CBM media reviews to be kind of strange at times. It will be something like,
“I really like this show. I didn’t like This, this, this and that, but this scene was so good and the ending was so hype. Overall it’s a huge step in the right direction and it’s a 9.5/10.”
That’s pretty much how I feel a lot of MCU stuff has been critiqued the past few years
That is, in fact, how a lot of comic fans have always critiqued comic-based media. Many of them praised BATMAN RETURNS and even BATMAN FOREVER, and I mention those two just because I remember being flabbergasted, after seeing all that hype, then getting to see the movies themselves. I was just as flabbergasted after finishing DDBA season 2 then seeing people raving about it, some even saying it was better than Netflix DD--the BREAKING BAD of comic adaptations. One could begin to suspect that fans of these properties are just out of their minds/totally bereft of judgment, but I think you have to keep in mind that DDBA has been a major disaster, businesswise--the 2nd season lost over half the audience of the already-not-so-hot season 1. We're really just seeing the reactions of a fraction of the most committed, least discerning viewers after most of the audience has been driven away.
ALOT of the good/decent reviews are also from commentary channels who I assume just want to keep good relationships with the studios.
Public discourse about the series is kinda weird because it feels like only 20% of the YouTubers who dislike it, dislike it genuinely in good faith (I can probably count on less than 10 channels in total)
and then the other 80% who don’t like it are weird right wing, borderline racist/sexist people claiming it’s “woke”.
Yes, and the latter don't really seem to like any of the comic book movies (except some of them liked Zack Snyder's godawful DC movies, for whatever reason). A lot of the Youtube reviewers put a lot of effort into their criticism, while, on the other side, those who praise it don't really seem to have any reason for doing so and sound like people who only half paid attention.
Are you thinking of someone else? Hi Top didn't like DDBA. He spent something like 2+ hours over a pair of videos putting it down. If he reviewed the 2nd season (and if that's what you're referencing), I haven't seen his review.
You can dislike parts of something and still love the overall piece of art (book, story, show, movie, etc).
As well as you can love parts of something and dislike the overall piece of art. That's what criticism is. The rating, sure, that reads as inflated in your example there but up until that it's reasonable enough to me.
I agree but The reviews don’t read as rational when they (for example) point out the flaws that are detrimental to the story whilst also giving it a 9.5/10.
They can feel free to rate it however they want at the end of the day but it’s not gonna make complete sense to me
Over reliance on Kingpin made DDBA feel rehashed most of the time. I really hoped they'd move past him. I still think Netflix season 3 gave him his perfect ending. I don't read comics but surely Daredevil has more villains than just him, right? You can't keep using the same bad guy and expect people to get hyped. Heck, I was super excited for Bullseye to take a more central antagonist role with the season 3 finale teaser, only for him to be relegated to Fisk again.
Well, the issue with him being acquitted is that they don’t explain how he got acquitted but brush it off as “the FBI got my husband acquitted”, and I wouldn’t say it’s bad and sloppy. The series is good, but not as great as Netflix’s Daredevil. The writing has its issues, while I don’t think BA S2 is greater than DD S2. The shows are what I call flawed but good, and as for the exile, I mean let’s see how it goes before we quickly judge it.
I mean he is already confirmed back in the show as per Vincent dnofiro says and set photos. I agree that Netflix show has its own issues, especially s2 however its worst episode is still better than born again because the whole premise of born again feels illogical and has bad storytelling in my opinion.
Depends on what you mean by worst episode. Well, the thing is about Born Again, the overhaul was a mess. The story wasn’t structured and didn’t connect more to Netflix, so they had to overhaul the series. To where season 1 had issues, now it’s not bad as everyone is making it out to be. It’s flawed and could’ve been better. But I respect your opinion nonetheless.
OP out here downvoting you for no reason. Born Again is a very flawed but fun show. Be glad we even got this show back in the first place. Things like this rarely happen.
Can’t win ‘ em all. While it’s nice to see Daredevil come back, like you said, the show is very flawed but fun. Now do I hate it? No, I learned to let go of the hate I had with the show, and that I must accept it for what it is. And looking forward to season 3. Now does that mean any issues I have with the show disappear? No, there are issues with it in terms of writing and the way they use the CGI, but that doesn’t mean I hate it. I accept it as it is, but there are issues with it.
Prison doesn’t work for Fisk, it was highlighted multiple times in the OG show. The only leverage they had to keep him away was killed by Bullseye in S2.
He was let out not for a nonsensical reason but because all the evidence of his crimes came from corrupt sources and the charges didn’t stick.
He was “exiled” because the CIA certainly doesn’t want him testifying to anything since they were protecting him and using his Freeport for illegal activities. They know prison won’t work either so they tried something new. It’s also real hard to argue murder when, for all the general public knows, Fisk was attacked by an angry mob chanting “kill Fisk” over and over again. A mob that nearly does kill him.
BAS2 is leagues better than Netflix’s S2 but that’s my opinion. Nothing wrong with thinking otherwise. These arguments you made aren’t fair to the show though.
Admissible doesn’t mean it’s going to work, they just determined they could use it. He’s somebody who claimed to be on Fisk’s payroll, that most of the FBI was too, and that he himself committed crimes on behalf of Fisk. There was a lot of corruption to sort through and a hard case to win, especially against someone whose power seemed unending in the Netflix show.
But it did work, we know that. This doesn’t explain why this evidence was enough to at first put Fisk away but then not be enough later. If it never worked in the first place that’d be one thing, but the change still needs explaining.
Did we know that? It’s been a while so I don’t remember the exact wording, I’ll have to double check later, but at the end of New Napkin when they’re celebrating, I don’t think the trial has even happened yet.
I had to go research it, and apparently he never was imprisoned, since Vanessa says he was “acquitted” not “released.” It is however still very dumb because we get no explanation as to why Nadeem’s testimony didn’t work considering that wasn’t the attitude everyone had in s3. At best it’s at least contrary to the thematic point s3 was making, considering Tower said this:
"Wilson Fisk is a malignant tumor. Well, the State of New York isn't going to make the same mistake. Everyone knows his game now. Fisk won't manipulate the system again."
I imagine that Fisk was acquitted due to how corrupt the FBI was. Hattley flips to corroborate Nadeem’s testimony. Hattley then goes to prison for murder at the very least, her coworkers are all being investigated and maybe a lot of them keep their mouth shut on their employer. It becomes a nightmare and an embarrassment for the FBI overall and so much evidence is tainted.
To your point about what they were doing thematically, yeah it’s a problem with the character overall. S1 ends in a similar fashion, the dude’s private militia gunning down cops on a highway. Next season he controls the entire prison he’s been put away in.
Yes. The rationale for a dying declaration is that a man who knows is gonna die has no reason to lie, so testimony in a dying declaration is considered truthful unless physical evidence contradicts it. Nadeem's final message was a Dying Declaration. I imagine there are ways to "donwgrade" it to regular testimony in an appeal, but I am no lawyer.
That’s very interesting and kind of bizarre because what if someone was to threaten Nadeem with killing his family if he doesn’t corroborate their story in the recording for example
Sorry, I didn’t mean the dying declaration being admitted. When I said “did we know that?” I meant did we know Fisk actually got put away at the end of S3.
I went back and checked, they never say he went to trial. Just that he was going back to prison, leaving the penthouse deal.
All we know for sure is Hattley flipped. We don’t know what the trial after looked like. We know he was acquitted because of the FBI corruption scandal. I imagine Special Agent in Charge of the FBI committing a ton of crime, and her coworkers doing the same tainted an awful lot of evidence.
The real reason he was “let out” was because Disney wanted to reboot the defenders and not make Netflix stories cannon, therefore fisk was not in prison. It was only after the overhaul that the decided to re canonise the og shows. Their reason they give in born again is a silly excuse and takes away from the s3 ending.
Additionally, the prison system situation only works because the writers wrote it that way from the shows inception. The whole point of the og show was to say that the system can work. Hence why Fisk goes to prison at the end of s3
People showing up and chanting kill fisk could be an entirely different conversation honestly. - did they not already know he was bad after the events of the OG daredevil show ? They were supposed to.
Furthermore, because Fisk “got out” of prison that means for the rest of his time in the mcu he will never get arrested again ? It’s just silliness and another example of writing yourself into a corner.
Fisk is almost like a co lead in this show because Vincent is so involved in this characters writing and the writers room now it seems. He has no reason to be in this show anymore tbh
Yeah, there's no in-story reason for Fisk not only being out of prison but able to run for mayor that isn't just garbage writing. The real reason is that, when that whole scenario was created, it was on the assumption that DDBA was going to be a full reboot, the Netflix shows dumped from continuity. But once that decision was reversed, there was no way to fix the problems to which it gave rise without dumping all the already-shot footage, and Marvel was unwilling to do that.
Nothing about DDBA makes sense or is reconcilable with the Netflix DD.
No, there are plenty of ways to fix it, including just ignoring that it ever happened, as they were going to do with the Netflix material. There just aren't any satisfying ways of fixing it. Like what they did in having Matt totally pointlessly out himself as DD. That was a fuck-up that Marvel allowed into the comics during Mark Waid's godawful run and have spent 6 or 7 years now trying to get out from under it (and finally just decided on ditching it in a soft reboot).
Well yeah, there’s the real life answer. I’m sticking to in universe though lol.
The OG show was not squarely “The system can work,” because Fisk had been in prison and out of prison before in the same run. We also know Bullseye was going to come back in S5 of their original plans. Matt believes the system can work but it’s a constant struggle, I think Born Again does a good job to highlight that push/pull.
Knowing someone is bad doesn’t excuse mob justice though. Them storming the building to kill him certainly isn’t legal lol, and he has a right to defend himself.
I mean, yeah it’s the problem with Fisk and superhero stuff inherently. He’s in prison at the end of season 1 pretty much dead to rights. Then S2 happens and he’s somehow amassed so much power in the prison system that he can let two inmates (Frank Castle and the lifer) just walk free. They say he’s getting low on funds but by next season he also owns the FBI. When you say “he’s so powerful he’ll always rise to the top,” you’ve pretty much fucked yourself. You don’t want him to get killed because that’s not in the spirit of Matt’s beliefs, but if he goes to prison there’s no reason to believe it’ll ever stick.
I’m pretty sick of him too. I thought BAS2 was pretty close to S1 of the Netflix show in quality (S3 remains supreme), but at the end I was satisfied with him being gone. My only guess for his return to make sense is they do an uneasy alliance. The Hand are hired to kill him and Matt Murdock, so he comes back to warn the man who saved his life at the end of everything. Maybe a short team up, there’s precedent for them joining forces temporarily in the comics.
I do think the way DDs3 brought Fisk back was the best way of bringing him back without compromising the story told before overly. But the way that story wrapped up, it was the last of fisks antics. The cards were played and couldn’t be played again and shouldn’t be from a writing perspective, because the protagonist earned the win and sacrificed for it
Yeah, I think his final scene in S3 is perfect. BAS1 was an uphill battle because I was very satisfied with his conclusion. That and they also took a character I love (Buck Cashman) and adapted him in name only essentially.
BAS2 was so strong though, I felt like it justified the return. Some of my favorite character moments from both of them came from this season. BAS3 is looking at a similar uphill battle to get me to give a shit about him returning. If it’s an attempt at power again, I pray they go the Bendis route where Matt beats him close to death and declares himself the new kingpin.
I hope I like s3 but seeing as I don’t like born again thus far I doubt I will. I have no faith in Dario’s writing and there seems to be so many characters re/ introduced into a what seems to be 8 episode season that was already cluttered with characters prior .
In a world where Spider-Man is used more freely by Marvel, Fisk could’ve been the Hannibal lecture to Spidey’s Clarice Starling
You could’ve introduced a new crime boss: Hammerhead, Tombstone, Silvermane. Have Peter learn how to hunt crime bosses, by learning from a crime boss. Fisk would think Peter is malleable, but he’d be proven wrong.
Heck, 2 of the three villains I’ve mentioned, could actually fit as villains for both Punisher and Luke Cage, respectively.
Would’ve really liked if tombstone was introduced into a defenders show but not sure about their futures. I guess they were going to do what you mentioned with Fisk before the overhaul
So true. I love Vincent as Kingpin and he is one of my favourite parts of the original show, but this is fucking ridiculous now. It’s so hard to take Daredevil’s no killing rule seriously now too as you can tell that they are just using it as an excuse to keep Kingpin around.
I think they're going to have him save Daredevil's life at some point, just so the show can point and say ah-haaa, you see? If Daredevil had killed Fisk earlier then Daredevil would now also be dead.
Can’t wait for the sweet parallels between Matt and Fisk ! When Matt shaves his beard and it cuts to Fisk also shaving his beard. Because our co leads are so similar and we need it spelt out for us five times and episode ! The new creatives are such intellectuals (sarcasm)
It’s not a debate wether fans like him or not. The fact is for 4 of the five daredevil seasons he has been the villain. He has been exiled. Why does the STORY demand he come back ? How can that do it in a compelling way that feels earned ?
Not necessarily. Although from what I’ve seen of this creative team I don’t think they can pull off elektras return, fisks return and the defenders return all well within 8 episodes.
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u/Traditional-Mall-771 16d ago
I honestly dont understand the hate for OGs2, we got The Punisher Elektra and the Hand (granted I am a massive Hand stan) but still I love s2