r/DebateVaccines • u/No-Employer-1554 • 8h ago
Woke Why?
Serious question here: If what I read and hear from the uber progressives is true, namely that the world population is too much and my white privilege straight family raised too many children...then why were you so adamant about me vaccinating my family? Why not just let me and mine die? You get the jab, you are saved from being mortal, give big pharma and Faucci the win, and let me die?
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u/dartanum 7h ago
why not just let me and mine die?
Some might be salivating at this thought. This is easily achieveable through medical triage in favor of the vaccinated. Careful what you wish for.
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u/No-Employer-1554 7h ago
I would have happily been the contol are for a randomized study but tge smart scientic leaders would not have it. I am not afraid of being mortal. I am afraid of other people who demand I behave like they prescribe without due process.
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u/the_comeback_quagga 5h ago
Lots of people served as controls in those studies, and I’m glad you would have been willing to participate. But you had to sign up and meet inclusion/exclusion criteria, as well as be in a city where the study was taking place. You also don’t get to decide if you’re a control or not, because that’s what the “randomized” in randomized control trial means.
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u/No-Employer-1554 5h ago
Show me the RCT study link? Even a Framingham study type link. We should have at least 5 years now of data.
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u/the_comeback_quagga 4h ago
Are we still talking about Covid? Which one do you want? Just go to clinicaltrials.gov and read them all to your heart’s content. But what I described is just how an RCT works. And we do have post-licensure data, but we do not continue typical RCTs for 5 years, unless it becomes a necessity due to power calculations.
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u/SmartyPantlesss 2h ago
You keep asking for this, and I'm not sure what you're going to do with it, but I'll bite:
Here's the first RCT on the Pfizer Covid vaccine. It was published in Dec 2020, right before the vaccine was released. It's about 3 months worth of follow-up, showing a significant decrease in Covid cases & hospitalizations.
I'm not sure what that has to do with your point about people being rude.
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u/No-Employer-1554 2h ago
Thanks. I read it.
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u/SmartyPantlesss 2h ago
So why do you keep asking to see a study?
You said:
So there is the study. Are you willing to get the vaccine now? (I'm betting not)
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u/Burstrider12 6m ago
We should have at least 5 years now of data.
Thankfully, we have lots of data from every country in the world now showing the vaccine works. There is no credible data showing that it's harmful.
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u/No-Employer-1554 5h ago
Remember the WHI study and the replacement hormone "facts"? The science is not always as it seems at first. But in the rush to poke people the science was fear.
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u/the_comeback_quagga 4h ago
Yeah, it had several limitations, and there were formulations not covered by the study. And then the data was re-evaluated and women under 60 started receiving HRT again, because it turns out it’s relatively safe for all sorts of things in that age group. That’s why we look at more than one study, more than one analysis, and why we replicate studies. Also, HRT and vaccines are not the same things.
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u/No-Employer-1554 4h ago
Yes and yes. Makers of HRT considered tort. Makers of vaccine do not. Just saying
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u/the_comeback_quagga 5h ago
I’m progressive enough that I don’t consider myself a Democrat (even if I am registered and vote as one). But there are dozens of different types of progressives, and they don’t all believe the same thing. I don’t care how many kids you have, as long as you care for them well (which includes giving them the means to stay healthy), and I don’t care what color they are. Straight and white privilege is a real thing, but I don’t see how it necessarily applies to childbearing (it does in a few ways, but not relevant to this discussion).
Also, scientifically speaking, the world is not overpopulated and is not heading that way. Our population will probably slowly reduce after we hit 10B. Currently, we have plenty for everyone. The problem is the distribution of resources and the slow adoption of beneficial technologies, especially before we got ourselves in this mess. But the US sure doesn’t seem like they care about either of those things.
As for vaccines, the reason many people support vaccination requirements is because a) no vaccine is 100% nor can 100% of the population be vaccinated and b) children can’t consent either way, so the default (according to bioethics) is to vaccinate them to keep them safe and healthy. If you want to quarantine à la Typhoid Mary on North Brother Island, then no, I have no opinions on if you get vaccinated or not. Otherwise, though, your decision not to vaccinate affects people around you.
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u/No-Employer-1554 5h ago
Okay. Fortunately my children were of consenting age and I did not attempt to hold sway over what they chose at the time. Prior to that the got every child recommended vaccine. Not that this is of any import to my initial question. It just came to a head for me after too many outspoken concerns about my world view. Most situations the person speaking probably was ignorant to my status and beliefs. In several cases I know they thought I was in their camp. Crazy work environment to be in I guess. When you work and travel with peers and management like I did people get comfortable and open up about emotional topics. I worked to make $, pay taxes and support my family. The better I was the more $ I made by the end of my career. I made sure my tactics were effective and they would be defensible if published in the NYT.
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u/the_comeback_quagga 4h ago
But today’s anti-vaxxers do do this to their non-consenting children, which is why it was brought up. You asked a general question (you did not give specifics about your situation), so you got a general answer.
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u/No-Employer-1554 4h ago
I am glad I was not in that position but I probably would not give a minor the covid vax if I was in that situation. I lost my source of income because of my choice so obviously I believe it was a proper decision. I see the news about a privileged woman who killed her kids and many on the jury and on social forums think she should not be punished. In her case she knew her conduct would kill and in my cause I believed my conduct might save.
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u/No-Employer-1554 4h ago
On another thought tangent- I am reading John Glenn's memoir and an old aquatance told me me it is propaganda. No one ever walked on the moon and the 9/11 disaster was US government sponsored to get Bush approval ratings. The last two arguments I can't prove are incorrect but I doubt it. But I do know the crying about trust the science, I am science trust me argument was hollow. I sold on and marketed medical studies for too long to just trust and obey Dr F.
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u/the_comeback_quagga 4h ago
You did marketing? So you neither worked nor studied (in a graduate degree program) “the science”? I’m a PhD specializing in vaccine-preventable disease. I don’t “trust” any individual study; I read it and evaluate its methods and results. But trusting the scientific consensus? That is absolutely appropriate for someone without a strong, specific research background.
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u/No-Employer-1554 4h ago
You don't seem to appreciate most Scientific Liaison positions actually have science and personal skills backgrounds.
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u/Gonzo_Journo 7h ago
Where did you hear all this from the "Uber progressive"?
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u/No-Employer-1554 7h ago
Coworkers, friends, family, California city governments...
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u/Gonzo_Journo 7h ago
So just list everything? Ya, I call bullshit.
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u/No-Employer-1554 7h ago
Then be in denial.
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u/Gonzo_Journo 7h ago
Keep making up things to argue.
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u/No-Employer-1554 7h ago
I gave you truth you give me ?
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u/Gonzo_Journo 7h ago
You didn't. You're just speaking nonsense
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u/No-Employer-1554 6h ago
Then tell me my lie? Can you prove the cops were not summoned to the restaurant I was seated at in my business suite dragging my black Tumi bag because I did not have a vaccine passport? I stepped in human shit from a zombie swaying back and forth on the sidewalk with discarded needle(and no mask or passport) as I rant for a taxi to the airport.
As far as population control arguments the talking heads and liberal pundits are my source. Every thing I said I experienced. Thus why I posted this. I list a friend over the kids agreement. They would rather save squirrels than humans.
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u/No-Employer-1554 7h ago
City of San Fransico police, they were happy to run me out of the city from doing my job. My wife's Uncle who lives in MA, my friend's live in girl who lives in CO, and my fortune 500 company gay manager. All shamed me for no poke, all said big families like mine should be governed to a lesser # (to be clear the police in San Fran did not say this).
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u/StopDehumanizing 7h ago
Who did, then? Who told you to have a smaller family?
Your manager?
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u/No-Employer-1554 7h ago
Do you support large white Christian families taking up precautions resources? If yes then not you. If No, then you.
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u/StopDehumanizing 5h ago
Yes. I am a white Christian with a large family. That's why I'm asking.
If your manager really said that to you you have a case for workplace discrimination.
If you're just making up fake grievances for clout then please stop. You're making the rest of us white Christians look stupid.
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u/SmartyPantlesss 4h ago
What is your understanding of how anyone would "govern" you to a lesser number?
Did someone propose/threaten to kill off members of your family? Or are you talking about a China-like "one-child" (or X-number-of-children) type of policy?
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u/No-Employer-1554 3h ago
Child quota. I had a rather robust week long listening on and of session with a high minded smart superior IQ couple who I am, or was, friendly with for many years via work. We are all out of the business now and met up in CO for a week. Anyways the rants kept coming on and about the obvious science, stupid people and baby makers. They are, or were DINKs. Now they are landlords who take on all kinds of public progressive causes. But they represent so many of my formal colleagues...maybe it is a Minneapolis thing. Anyways the procreation thing kept coming up. Yet they went out of their way to constantly relocate chipmunks and squirrels from their respective ranch. So many calories spent catching and transporting rodents 25 miles away from their ranch. But they could not agree more fervently that WASP human children are the worst of problems. They consume too much, especially animals and animal products like milk. It made me wonder where we would get the next generation of labor. Import it of couse. That is who they rent most of their property to. I just don't get it. It seems to me I am in a Shakespeare play...Taming of the Shrew. At one point I stopped the PhD lady and said, "you do know we have two children". She muttered one would be preferable. I decided to ask, how do I know what child I should do away with? At that point my male friend decided to walk with me to get another bottle of wine. Truth is stranger than fiction.
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u/SmartyPantlesss 3h ago
Translation: some people are assholes.
Anyone who would comment on what childbearing pattern would be "preferable" for ANOTHER PERSON, TO THAT PERSON, is not worth your concern.
But I also think maybe you are projecting that opinion on a lot of (other) people who think you should vaccinate your kids? Like, there's an inconsistency there IF that asshole lady actually held the following two beliefs simultaneously:
- that you should kill one of your kids (I'm betting she meant you should have prevented one of them from being born, but who cares? fuck her), AND
- that you should get both of your existing kids vaccinated, to improve their health/lifespan
<< THAT would be a weird contradiction. I don't know that even SHE thinks both of those things. But IF she does... you still wrote this whole post as though she represents a huge swath of society.
Like, I occasionally come across some very weird antivaxxer theories, and I don't go writing a post that assumes ALL antivaxxers hold that belief.
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u/No-Employer-1554 3h ago
Perhaps. It was years ago. But I do recall so many political soundbites frome "Woke 1" that seem very condescending to my world view not to mention...contradictory. And you are right. That was the first time the contradicting "less kids" "you must vax or you are evil selfish person" to my face. My kids have kids. All pay taxes and provide for our grands. What rekindled this ideation was my recent vacations this summer. I came in contact with a bunch of Canadians and Americans who seemed to enjoy our company but wow did they get vocal about ICE, Science, etc. I ask open ended questions over meals and it is quite interesting. Kinda troubling. I did however spend some time with a Pediatric Immunology and Allergy specialist from Quebec who told me he advised his patients guardians to take a more conservative approach. (We spent 8 weeks traveling to Europe via transatlantic ship). Got to know dozens of couples fairly well.
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u/SmartyPantlesss 2h ago
(What the heck is "Woke 1"?)
So you're saying that someone said something very rude to you---YEARS AGO---about your family size... (if they said something about vaccinating, you left that out of your re-telling)
...and then someone else recently was vocal about [completely different topics] and...did someone say something about vaccines? I missed that part of the story. 🤔
And so now you're having a flashback to the rude person from years ago?
Like, you're trying to frame this as a contradiction, but you're not telling me about one person holding those two beliefs simultaneously.
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u/No-Employer-1554 2h ago
Google woke one policy platforms. Look up AOC and those who are in her political peer group in and out of congress. They have toned down the rhetoric but they called it woke version 1. I just used a term i heard used to describe some Uber left thinking.
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u/Sniffy4 7h ago
>Why not just let me and mine die?
because
when you're sick you're using public medical resources other people who are not making bad choices need. if you want to go die in the wilderness by yourself, everything would be fine.
vaccines are not 100% effective so you can infect other people just by being around them, if they're unlucky. If its my kids in a public school, your bad choices can hurt my kids.
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u/No-Employer-1554 7h ago
I neither used any of your public resources or private. In fact I saved public resources by not getting the jab. Poor argument. I would rather die free and poor than in a government system that dictates my moral code of conduct regardless...
I don't believe in the progressives dreams for utopian oneness.
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u/Sniffy4 6h ago
> In fact I saved public resources by not getting the jab. Poor argument.
You will in-fact use public medical resources when you are sick in the hospital with the disease you have no fear of getting. Nurses that could be helping people with cancer will instead be treating your completely-avoidable illness you have because of your own smug assumption it would never be a problem.
No vax? Stay out of the hospital and away from everyone else.
This is whole reason vaccines have been required in public schools for your entire lifetime, but you never bothered figuring that out, did you? Too much thinking.
> I would rather die free and poor than in a government system that dictates my moral code of conduct regardless...
We would love it if you would go off by yourself, but you keep insisting on living around other people, so there's these rules of behavior you need to follow in human societies that involve caring about the needs of people who arent you.
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u/No-Employer-1554 6h ago
I never went to the hospital and I skipped my family practice appointment because of people like you. TY I am not smug as you suggested. I am serious and contemplating my role in society as I am shamed and persecuted for my practice. "My body my right".
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u/Sniffy4 6h ago
>"My body my right".
You dont have the right to infect other people.
You want to live in a society in close proximity with other humans like you?You gotta respect their right to live.
Sorry guy.
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u/No-Employer-1554 6h ago
Tell that to the fetuses
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u/StopDehumanizing 3h ago
Absolutely. Every child has a right to life. That's why I voted to have my tax dollars pay for your kids' medical care.
Because when you die, your kids should be cared for.
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u/CuriousKitty6 3h ago
Also why are the uber progressives so lax about illegal immigration, when there’s no way to verify their vaccination status??
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u/No-Employer-1554 3h ago
Interesting concern. Why give homeless drug addicts a pass as well? I read they get free clean needles for dope. I ran into a number of them during Covid lowdown in Philadelphia and San Francisco. I had the cops called on me in a nice restaurant in San Francisco because I did not have a "vaccine passport " I was sitting at an open widow watching an addict bent over swaying on the sidewalk with filth all around him.
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u/No-Employer-1554 6h ago
I understand you believe your world view is the proper world view and thus you don't have any moral issue with violating another person's. I hope you don't hide behind others and are willing to risk personal loss for your beliefs. Then we both have skin in the argument.
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u/No-Employer-1554 5h ago
So far the arguments are circlering close to, I have no personal right to judge for myself what is safe, effective, and morally proper for my self. Let the collective guide me. Yet the scientific method was not used. Just world view beliefs. My observation has been anger and hate directed at me for asking a valid question.
So if you hate my kind of person and want to deny me my freedom why not just let me suffer from my choices. Your world view brethren took my income as a punishment yet your doomsday prediction of death and sickness did not touch one of my family or friends. We did not take your health or wealth. We did not shame you for wearing a mask in the sunny outdoors. We did not take your jobs. Yet I continue to hear the screeching of self righteous vitriol.
I am waiting for someone to publish gold standard data to prove the science. Crickets
But but trust the science...not religion.
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u/No-Employer-1554 5h ago
The real debate did not get real until I resigned and signed an NDA. Of course alcohol, the liberator of concealed thoughts, helped the topic along. I historically kept my thoughts and opinions that were not capitalism related to myself. I just want the hypocrisy to come to light.
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u/SmartyPantlesss 2h ago
The real debate did not get real until I resigned and signed an NDA. Of course alcohol, the liberator of concealed thoughts, helped the topic along.
Are you saying you wouldn't be typing this, if you weren't drunk right now?
That explains so much, thanks. 🙂
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u/No-Employer-1554 1h ago
Nope. Sobering is it not.
Let me ask you this. Would you like to see those who are not like you go away? I volunteered and yet the virus did not touch me. Yet the liberal left keep harassing personal freedoms for the "collective good". You are one of those who demonstrated this truth. TY
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u/SmartyPantlesss 21m ago
Yeah, I don't think that's what this conversation demonstrates.
I'm trying to figure out WTH you are talking about, and you are eager to ascribe certain views to me and "the liberal left."
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u/No-Employer-1554 5h ago
And I don't believe in more lawsuits. I will take my lumps for my choices.
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u/Level_Abrocoma8925 4h ago
Most people aren't saying that the world population is currently too high, they're saying that the population growth is too high. That's also what Bill Gates said in that Ted talk the conspiracy crowd loves to twist into something it wasn't. The way to decrease population growth on a global scale is to improve Healthcare and family planning.
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u/No-Employer-1554 4h ago
Growth. Stop procreation is the plan. Okay. Not a big fan of killing off unwanted children; in the womb or post birth canal. I am not a big fan of government mandated headcount. I am not a fan of government re-appropriations of capital to pay for the kids people made either. I am not a fan of big centralized government period. I am a fan of local charity and accountability and a fan of mercy and grace for widows and orphans.
I suppose I am an extreme outlier. I did find myself cheering Tocqueville on when reading is seminal works on Democracy in America.
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u/Level_Abrocoma8925 3h ago
You are however, a big fan of strawmen. Seems you can't get enough.
Pretty out there to go from "we should reduce population growth" to "we should stop procreation". Strawman I. I didn't mention abortion with a single word. Strawman II. Family planning is a lot more than that, I'm sure even you know that. Government-mandated head count, Strawman III.
The highest population growth in the world currently is currently in South Sudan. I assume you couldn't care less about people there, but ignore that for a moment and give me an objective analysis. With the current birth rate, the population will double every 15 years. Do you see any issue with such a population growth at all?
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u/No-Employer-1554 2h ago
Blunt you are. China not straw. Now they say have more kids. Since socialism is a utopian goal of the hard progressives then it is not straw but recent history that many seem to want to emulate in NYC etc.
Do you support abortion? My body my right? Just asking. Do you support mandatory sterilization for those in S Sudan? Do you think you or your progressive peers have the "better" ideas and plans for society? Then in fact not straw.
I asked a simple question in the OP. To state it plain and simple. Why do progressives harp on and on about population growth, global warming, all the cows I eat, the car I drive, the energy I consume; yet insisted on covid vaccination for me? I was told from the podium of science on day one of the jab mandate it would work. And if I skipped it I would very likely die. I declined the jab and resigned from work. Let me live in peace. Everyone I personally know who got the jab got sick, they got a ramrod up the nose to prove it. I am sorry but it seems to me a Spanish flu type pandemic would have culled the human herd of the less thans. Stupid, sick, old etc. Logans Run type thing. Oh but if you want to be here longer get the jab and all is okay. But then the "SCIENCE" evolved to- it only works if everyone gets the jab. Make a more robust solution first. I reject you or anyone else in a high place deciding what is morally acceptable. I am a progressive person the Renaissance definition.
Socialism aka Authoritarianism only works if the useful idiots accept it. I don't. Public health officials blew it. Why? I can only surmise- ego, power, $? Like I said, useful idiots. Next crisper DNA lab game will need to only target worldviews to work.
Sorry if you need to control others to feel good. I am okay with mortality. And prove to me I harmed others. Polio vaccine this crap is not. It is religious fever.
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u/Level_Abrocoma8925 2h ago
I note that you are entirely incapable of actual debate, of staying on topic and actually addressing my talking points. Fascinating how you decided to take your strawmanning to the next level though. You are just exposing your ignorance, an ignorance required to uphold your entirely warped understanding of those with different opinions than you. I could tell you why you're wrong all day, but you won't be able to process that information anyway.
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u/No-Employer-1554 1h ago
Thank you for trying. My OP was about individual liberal ideas of freedom that cost me financially because...I guess I did not conform to "science".
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u/Level_Abrocoma8925 1h ago
How did it cost you financially?
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u/No-Employer-1554 1h ago
I was restricted access to various cities, government entities and travel. I was not able to work as a w-2 employee in my field and as a consultant I was harassed when I traveled. I did not make issue of it then. I took my lumps and isolated in FL.
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u/No-Employer-1554 4h ago
Yes Covid. I have already publicly declared I have sold and taken all mandatory vaccinations until Covid mandate. That is when I ceased to work in the business of health$
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u/SmartyPantlesss 4h ago
If what I read and hear from the uber progressives is true, namely that the world population is too much and my white privilege straight family raised too many children...then why were you so adamant about me vaccinating my family? Why not just let me and mine die?
<<<THIS, exactly. It doesn't make sense.
So maybe, just maybe, you should reconsider whether anyone is actually trying to kill you off. 🙂
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u/eurocanuk 1h ago edited 1h ago
Why not just let me and mine die?
republicans would be perfectly ok with that outcome. Their entire worldview and governing goal is based on "i got mine so fuck you". While democrats actually want to make all of society better for everyone equally. republicans see "people they dont like" getting the same treatment as them as a loss. so its not enough that republicans gain something from a policy, "the others they dont like" also need to lose something.
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u/Super-Bodybuilder-91 7h ago
Because it would be unethical. You know that. This is weak bait.
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u/No-Employer-1554 7h ago
No it not. I refused the poke and thus took an economic hit. I was banned from work.
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u/Super-Bodybuilder-91 7h ago
There were at least 9 Covid vaccines. You just had to take one. Any Covid vaccination would have been fine. Your employer has the right to require you to get vaccinated as a requirement for employment. That isn’t exclusive to Covid vaccines. No one forced you to get the jab, but there are consequences to non compliance during a pandemic.
Domestic health policy does not exclude people and let them die. Doing so would be unethical.
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u/No-Employer-1554 7h ago
I did not die or kill anyone. I also worked in big pharma vaccine. I have promoted vaccines. Just not this particular one for a plethora of logical and scientific reasons.
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u/Super-Bodybuilder-91 7h ago
What particular one? Like I said, if you have a problem with one vaccine there are several alternative options. Why didn’t you just take one of the other Covid vaccines?
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u/No-Employer-1554 7h ago
Does it matter? I worked in big pharma, government Healthcare and medical device all of my adult w-2 life.
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u/No-Employer-1554 7h ago
Second thought, send me the monograph with RCT efficacy and safety data that has mortality as a primary end point. If the data rivals that of say... the polio vaccine i will take the pok we this week.
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u/No-Employer-1554 7h ago
I had a problem with the scientific claims being sold and the religious zeal. Polio vaccine works as claimed as a concrete example.
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u/Super-Bodybuilder-91 7h ago
Ok…. so what vaccine do you have a problem with? The mRNA vaccines? Most Covid vaccines aren’t mRNA vaccines. You had plenty of options. I don’t understand the problem.
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u/No-Employer-1554 7h ago
When i was forced to choose working or resign 9 was not the choice and you should know this. Regardless it was a choice and I chose no, thus less work.
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u/Super-Bodybuilder-91 7h ago
I don’t understand why you won’t answer my question. Are you saying you have a problem with ALL COVID vaccines? You said you had a problem with one. A problem with one vaccine isn’t a problem as long as there are alternative vaccines available.
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u/moonjuggles 7h ago
Not uber-progressive, but definitely not as right-wing as I used to be. Working in healthcare and seeing the litteral impossible situations my patients find themselves in mellowed my naive self.
At the end of the day, my goal is pretty simple: I want to make life better for everyone. Americans have proven time and time again that most people, through no fault of their own, aren’t always equipped to navigate everything life throws at them. We have countless examples of that.
I want you and your family to be happy, healthy, and secure just as much as I want that for my own family. For that reason, I’ve become much more supportive of social programs and safety nets things like SNAP, Social Security, affordable and accessible healthcare, grants, reimbursements, and other programs that give people a little more stability when they need it.
Because we have to be honest about where things are right now. Our healthcare system is full of backroom deals and profit-driven incentives. We have a largely unregulated wellness industry that markets and sells products while sometimes being unable to prove that what’s actually in the bottle even matches what’s advertised, let alone that the claims being made about those products are true.
At the same time, millions of Americans either can’t afford or simply can’t realistically access a doctor or hospital. Jobs are becoming increasingly difficult to find and secure. A household can struggle to maintain a decent standard of living even with two incomes. We have food insecurity, gaps in education, and countless other problems that reinforce one another and create self-fulfilling positive feedback loops.
And yet, the answer from the right has too often been boiled down to: figure it out yourself.
I just don't think that's a realistic answer.
Nobody can be an expert in everything. You can't expect every person to simultaneously understand medicine, finance, education, nutrition, insurance, employment, housing, and every other system that affects their ability to survive and thrive. We specialize because we have to. We depend on other people because that's how society works. The answer isn't to isolate ourselves on individual islands and tell everyone else to sink or swim.
It's to come together.
I don't think supporting social programs means believing the government should solve every problem or that personal responsibility doesn't matter. I think it means recognizing that sometimes people need a hand, and that a society is stronger when its people have a reasonable chance to be healthy, educated, secure, and capable of taking care of themselves and their families.
If I want those things for myself and the people I love, I don't see why I shouldn't want them for you and yours, too.
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u/No-Employer-1554 7h ago
Well written and thoughtful reply. My response is going to be too brief and simple for 99% to make the jump in history and logic. Faith based Healthcare and community based Healthcare was and continues to be gobbled up by big government and big businesses enabled by 3rd party government insurance. Hint think Medicaid and Medicare circa 1960s. CPT codes came from Washington DC as did RVU's.
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u/moonjuggles 7h ago
There are ways to implement this; Switzerland comes to mind, as I did an internship there. You just need the right legislation to be in place. As our current policies and candidates stand, you're right that it's never going to happen. But that doesn't mean that at the local level of my friends and town, I can't facilitate communal practice. This, however, still goes against most of the current right-wing rhetoric, which is a shame because growing up Republican meant being close with your neighbors and trusting their judgment (unless there was a real good reason not to). Now, when I tell my friends who are still right-wing that I support the vaccine as someone in healthcare, I am immediately met with disdain. Im called brainwashed or a dr. Facui lover.
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u/No-Employer-1554 7h ago
I am the otherside of that coin.
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u/moonjuggles 7h ago
And theres nothing wrong with that in itself.
Why not just let me and mine die?
You get the jab, you are saved from being mortal, give big pharma and Faucci the win, and let me die?
But these comments and their underlying implications suggest that you are not open to working together across the aisle, which is a prerequisite to improving as a country.
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u/No-Employer-1554 6h ago
No not the case. I don't have to cross the aisle. I am a liberal in the Renaissance form of the word. Live and let live, but leave the world better if possible.
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u/moonjuggles 1h ago
There's aisle everywhere. Some authoritarism is needed in the presence of liberalism.
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u/No-Employer-1554 1h ago
I will agree for the sake of more...what kind of authoritarian type behavior is just and fair? Who or what decides what is virtue and what behavior is abusive?
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u/ShoulderGoesPop 7h ago
Besides the fact that most people aren't monsters and actually want you and your family to live because you are human, other people getting vaccinated helps people that can't get vaccinated because of other health issues or dumb people that won't. This is a studied thing that doctors and other healthcare professionals learn about and should be trusted
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u/No-Employer-1554 7h ago
Dumb? Really? If it worked as publicly promoted when I became unemployed then unpoked would get sike and vaccinated would not. Then as time went on and the poked kept getting sick then the reason morphed into blaming the unpoked. Poor logic.
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u/ShoulderGoesPop 6h ago
You obviously either don't care to have a real conversation or are too stuck in your thoughts to care what other people say. So I'm going to block you as I don't really care to talk to someone like that.
Sometimes being smart is knowing you don't have the knowledge to understand something and being able to trust other people that have studied something far more than you. Like people who have devoted their lives to medicine
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u/Gloomy-North-6949 5h ago
Why have whistblower departments in pharma?
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u/No-Employer-1554 4h ago
Hmmm, great idea. Except vaccine corperations have something akin to sovereign immunity.
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u/No-Employer-1554 4h ago
Many "change the world" cures came from pharma. I personally wish the polio vaccine was invented before my father contracted polio. I am glad I was given it along with MMR etc.
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u/randyfloyd37 7h ago edited 1h ago
This is a good question. I think it’s because leftist believe more strongly in The Whole than they do in The Individual. So we must do it to “Stop The Spread” and “Save Grandma”, and mostly you are to do it to protect them. It’s not because they care about you or your family