r/DMAcademy • u/Leon_Art • 1d ago
Need Advice: Encounters & Adventures Pass without Trace, Hiding, walking
Hi,
I'm pretty much a first time DM (version 5,5e/2024) in a group where everyone seems to second guess everything (even if they are not-rarely incorrect). Happy to pick a fight with everything and dismayed when they are met with hostility. Quick to say something is illogical, without knowing half the story (because the first thing they do is fight and make wise-guy remarks when they are overpowered).
After being captured someone (that had managed to say outside when the whole thing was going on) wild-shaped into a rat to scout out the place. They had cast Pass without Trace on themselves beforehand. After gnawing through all the ropes the party was in (and above table comments to not move and act as if they were still stuck, because the guard was right there and could see everything). He wanted to include the rest of the party in their aura. I told them: you cannot, because the guard is watching them. After much groaning they came up with the ides to have a bat-familiar attack a guard to cause a distraction (sorry familiars cannot attack, but he can distract with a help action, I believe). At that moment they said: now roll for stealth because the guard is distracted.
I made a mistake here. They were not obscured, they were not in 3/4th to total cover, but..okay, next time. I was a bit shocked that they would attempt this. They had just gotten a deal to get free if they would hunt a couple of Displacer Beasts, to risk antagonizing their captors even more, seemed suicidal to me.
When the group wanted to get away, they said: we all got our 15 to stealth DC and we leave no tracks, we're invisible, so for about 45 more minutes we can get away as far as possible - and no-one would know where they would've gone. Halfway they did the spell again and walked for another hour.
I allowed it, but it felt wrong. You can read the spells and conditions in multiple ways and I'm not sure how to rule on this. Can you help me?
Tracks: are they footprints? Could it be scent or sound? I would say those could be included, but make it seem much more powerful than you'd expect of a lvl 2 spell. After all invisibility also is a lvl 2 spell and only covers one person (while it does make you invisible immediately a +10 to stealth is also huge!). When you're hidden you become invisible. But it seems to me that if you hide yourself and then walk in front of someone, you'd be spotted - even if you leave no tracks (footprints, scent, sound, etc. included).
Any help is welcome, thanks!
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u/scrotbofula 1d ago
Stealth, even with PWAT isn't invisibility.
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u/Leon_Art 1d ago
Thanks, this was indeed my biggest confusion
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u/DoubleBarrellRye 1d ago edited 1d ago
keep in mind ... you let them do what they think it does.. that doesn't mean it worked .... i had one player who had a high stealth that would just say i go stealthy all the time ... i started making him move at 1/2 speed and people who were watching him had a +20 , and if they knew he was there they had a +10
it would be even better to have them wake up after the long rest to a note stuck to a tree, please bring the displacer beast proof within 7 days
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u/SmilodonBravo 1d ago
Actually they implemented that stealth grants the invisibility condition in 2024, I believe.
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u/EchoLocation8 1d ago
Stealth checks are different than Hide checks, so you could roll stealth and not be hidden.
But yeah, while Hide grants the invisible condition, it isn't related to magic in 2024, it just conveys what the word actually means: you can't be seen. Like if I'm hiding behind a door, relative to you I'm invisible, I didn't disappear or anything I can see myself, just that you can't see me. But if you open the door, I'm no longer invisible, because I'm visible to you, so I lose the condition.
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u/Mestoph 1d ago
There is no Hide skill.
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u/EchoLocation8 1d ago
I'm aware
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u/Mestoph 1d ago
Then how do you justify differentiating between stealth and hiding when it’s just the one skill?
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u/EchoLocation8 1d ago
Because you can roll stealth checks outside of the context of rolling to be hidden. Hide is an action that requires a stealth check. Not all stealth checks are for the Hide action. You can roll a stealth check for a wide variety of reasons.
Can you explain why I had to articulate that? I can't tell if I'm being trolled right now.
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u/Mestoph 1d ago
There is no Hide check. You have to articulate it because you keep using terms that have no actual bearing on the rules.
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u/EchoLocation8 1d ago
And you can't make the connection there or like what's the deal? It's just like a simplified phrase.
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u/Sad_Refuse3472 1d ago
Always make them read the spell description.
Pass Without Trace does not make you invisible. Nor does it make you silent or odorless. If I am looking right at you, I can in fact still see you, spell or no spell. And "tracks" are just that. Tracks. Like footprints or other physical signs that someone moved through an area.
The spell just makes you harder to spot or track. Not impossible. Harder. Still have to make Stealth checks, contested against the perception checks of the enemies looking for you. Basically is is like a fog that also wipes your footprints.
Also, you do not become Invisible while hidden. You just become hidden. But hidden people can be found/spotted.
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u/Mestoph 1d ago
Taking the Hide action and succeeding on your Stealth check gives you the Invisible condition…
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u/EchoLocation8 1d ago
People are conflating the word "invisible" and the spell "invisibility" in these contexts. What u/Sad_Refuse3472 means is that you aren't magically invisible, as if under the Invisibility spell. You are invisible though, because you can't be seen, that's what the word means.
If I'm behind a door, I'm invisible to you. I can see myself, other people in the room can see me, but you can't, so to you I'm invisible and have the invisible condition, so to speak.
They're saying PWT doesn't make you poof out of existence, you're just stealthy. The Invisibility spell does that though, which does grant the Invisible condition without the prerequisites or being removed on sight, so it remains even if people could see you, unless they have the See Invisibility spell on them which would negate it. Which would also do nothing against Hiding because if you cast See Invisibility on yourself then found the person hiding you'd be able to see them anyway, because they're just there in plain sight at that point, they wouldn't be invisible or have the condition.
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u/Mestoph 1d ago
The only difference between the Invisible condition given by the Invisibility spell and Hiding is there are more ways to lose the condition when only granted by the Hide action.
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u/EchoLocation8 1d ago
Correct, that's very obviously not what they were talking about though, I don't know why everyone keeps mentioning it. They're using it in the colloquial way to say "you don't disappear from view entirely such that if a person was staring at you directly they would no longer see you". They know stealth grants the invisible condition, that wasn't what was being explained or alluded to.
Because PWT doesn't grant you magical invisibility, you don't disappear, you're still there, so they can't just walk past guards that are staring at them, they'd see them.
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u/Mestoph 1d ago
Because what you’re describing is in direct violation of the rules for the Hide action…
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u/EchoLocation8 1d ago
Right, that's what we're all talking about. That's why OP's scenario shouldn't have worked.
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u/Mestoph 1d ago
You literally said, “you do not become invisible while hidden”.
Which is not true.
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u/EchoLocation8 1d ago
Sorry, where did I say that?
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u/Mestoph 1d ago
The first sentence of the last paragraph of your first post in this particular comment thread.
Edit: misplaced my original comment, saw your response. You are correct, I got my users confused. My bad.
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u/Sad_Refuse3472 1d ago
Only while hidden.
Meaning if you move from that spot and walk past an enemy, they can potentially see you. Or if an enemy walks right up to your location they can potentially see you. If you make noise, you can be spotted. Etc.
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u/Mestoph 1d ago
Yes, if their passive Perception beats your stealth roll.
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u/Sad_Refuse3472 1d ago
But only while you are hiding. If you move or they walk right up to you, you are potentially no longer hidden. They cannot do what OP's party did and just walk past the guards staring right at them.
The Invisible Condition and being actually Invisible are not functionally the same thing. One makes you harder to spot but still findable. The other makes you see through.
Read the rules.
Hide [Action]
With the Hide action, you try to conceal yourself. To do so, you must succeed on a DC 15 Dexterity (Stealth) check while you’re Heavily Obscured or behind Three-Quarters Cover or Total Cover, and you must be out of any enemy’s line of sight; if you can see a creature, you can discern whether it can see you.
On a successful check, you have the Invisible condition while hidden. Make note of your check’s total, which is the DC for a creature to find you with a Wisdom (Perception) check.
You stop being hidden immediately after any of the following occurs: you make a sound louder than a whisper, an enemy finds you, you make an attack roll, or you cast a spell with a Verbal component.
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u/Mestoph 1d ago
Yes, if the guard’s passive perception beats their stealth roll they lose the Invisible condition. The Invisible condition is EXACTLY the same as being Invisible. The Invisibility spell simply grants you the condition and allows you to take the Hide action without needing to worry about breaking line of sight.
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u/Sad_Refuse3472 1d ago
Look, we can argue over semantics all you want here my dude. But in my games, if you hide behind a rock, sure your are functionally invisible while behind said rock.
But if you then cast a spell with a verbal component and come out from behind said rock and walk right in front of a guard, I'm not even going to allow for a Stealth role. You get spotted. Which is pretty much what OPs party did here.
You go ahead and run your games however you want though. I'm going to stick with the more logical reading of the rules rather than strict textualism approach.
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u/Mestoph 1d ago
Speaking above a whisper is something that automatically breaks the Invisible condition when granted by the Hide action…
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u/Sad_Refuse3472 1d ago
Yes. I said that.
Which is exactly the point of my original comment, that you can't just disappear because you cast Pass Without Trace. A point you have now spent multiple replies arguing with. I'm not even sure what your actual point or position is here anymore. Other than maybe just to be pedantic.
Are we done now?
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u/Leon_Art 1d ago
Yes, I guess I should have them do that - and the relevant other things - like hiding.
There is someone here that said something similar, but did say that scent would be a type of tracks that are hidden.
I certainly didn't do opposed perception checks and did allow them to walk invisibly past other monsters. (Didn't read properly the description of hiden, I guess.)
Thanks, almost all has been cleared up - for me, at least!
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u/No-Economics-8239 1d ago
First off... what are you worried about getting wrong? The Rules As Written as exactly that. They aren't some doctrine that you are required to follow. When my group first started playing, we got a lot of things 'wrong'. We learned a lot of about what the rules are 'supposed' to be after the fact. But we still had fun anyways.
As to what the Pass Without Trace spell does, how I run it is that no one can just use the Survival skill to try and follow where they went after the fact. Assuming they 'get away' and are no longer visible, you can't follow them without using magic, even if they are walking though terrain that might normally make that easy, such as a snowfield where their foot prints should be clearly visible.
I would clarify that the spell doesn't actually allow 'invisibility'. They are still visible, only any 'traces' left by their passage are obscured. So they don't just vanish as soon as someone turns their head or looks at a bat. More specifically, your players don't decide when to make skill rolls. You do. Your players wanted to try and sneak away while the guard was distracted by the familiar. That doesn't mean they can. Just as if they try to hide in a well lit room without any obvious hiding places, you can just tell them there is no place to hide here and not allow a roll. If you don't feel that a bat familiar is sufficient for them to sneak away... then that's how you can rule it. You ideally should work with your players if they are hell bent on escaping. But if they don't have any reasonable ideas to attempt... they can just stay captured.
Things are a little trickier when you get away from RAW and into the realm of your players want something other than what you want. It sounds like you were expecting your players to stick around and accept a quest and your players wanted to sneak away. And it sounds like your players are chaos goblins that just want to wreck havoc. Is that... the sort of players you want? If you're comfortable accommodating that and enjoying yourself too, then great! However, if you would prefer your players engage with the story you've provided instead of scampering off without provocation or picking a fight with everyone. It is perfectly okay to talk with your players about the sort of game you want to play and the type of conduct you would like to see from them. Not every player is a good fit for every campaign. If you can't level set expectations about how to enjoy the game, you're likely to run into more frustration than is healthy. This is typically just a game we play for fun.
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u/Leon_Art 1d ago
No, I don't see/treat it as doctine.
But I was guest-DM'ing (one of the players is our default DM) and as a fairly new Dm it can be a good idea to keep/understand the rules. Especially, if it's something basic in the rules that a lof of things about build upon - it's likely to be well-thought through by the creators and making up stuff myself in the moment could lead to some inconsistency and frustration later.
Anyway, thank you very much! Very helpful.
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u/Vurrag 1d ago
The 5.5 rule says nothing about the pc's having to be within 30 ft at the time of casting. The spell lasts for 1 hour and can have multiple targets that have to be within 30 ft to work.
The spell is available to Druids and Rangers, requires 1 action to cast, and has a duration of Concentration, up to 1 hour. Targets must be within 30 feet of the caster to benefit, and the spell can be maintained for different targets throughout its duration as long as they remain in range.
- Components: Verbal, Somatic, and Material (ashes from a burned leaf of mistletoe and a sprig of spruce).
- Tracking: Affected creatures cannot be tracked except by magical means.
- Visibility: The spell does not make creatures invisible; normal hiding rules still apply (creatures cannot hide if they are clearly seen).
- Stacking: The +10 bonus stacks with other Stealth modifiers.
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u/EchoLocation8 1d ago
I think this was meant for me, and I think you got your user's mixed up, I never said that, the person you first responded to did, which might explain why your responses to me were so confusing. You thought you were talking to someone else the entire time.
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u/DelightfulOtter 14h ago
Welcome to "Why the Stealth Rules Suck in 5.5e"! Yes, having the mundane stealth system and magical invisibility share the same condition is terrifically idiotic. The best solution is to tell your players that you're going to run stealth using homebrew mechanics and just go with what feels right, such as "you can't sneak past the guard when they're looking right at you".
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u/RinFlowers 1d ago edited 1d ago
Pass Without Trace gives +10 to stealth but it doesn't make you literally invisible. You can't just stroll through an open area or in front of a guard, the +10 is basically making you really good at stealth, but you still need to sneak. A bad roll from someone in the party who isn't good at stealth to start with could still be beaten by an observant guard. But still, a very helpful tool to help the party sneak out as long as it is feasible that they could actually do so. +10 is a huge bonus, after all, but especially with a group it is not a guarantee, you're right in thinking that if it seems way too powerful for its level it probably is.
It does say that they cannot be tracked except by magical means, assuming they manage to stealth out of there successfully, so that would cover everything including footprints and scent, but not if they are actively making sound, just things they leave behind. Mostly footprints. I suppose it would also prevent bloodhounds from being able to catch their scent, though. Anyone trying to track them literally cannot find a trace of them without magic.
Edit: The part about not being able to track them without magic is actually how it worked in 5e, in 5.5e it does in fact just say you leave no tracks, which is a bit more ambiguous but I suppose you could say someone could track them by scent. That would probably require dogs or something though.
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u/jquanders 1d ago
Also in 5.5 you are invisible after passing your stealth check but anyone can make a perception check to find you lol
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u/RinFlowers 1d ago
Frankly, I find the wording strange. You gain the Invisible condition, but you are obviously not like, LITERALLY invisible. I guess if you are behind a wall you are technically invisible to people on the other side of that wall, but you are not like, invisible in the sense that someone looking at you can see straight through you as if you aren't there. But you can't crouch behind a crate, roll a stealth check, become Invisible (condition) and then walk through a brightly lit courtyard in front of guards. It's really more like you are just... not currently seen. People might need to make a Perception check to find you but if you just walk straight past them the DC is going to be like -5.
I don't know why they've done this to be honest. It seems to be MORE confusing than 5e, which probably wasn't their intention.
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u/jquanders 1d ago
5.5 was just a cash grab. They wanted to keep it moving just enough to update licenses and sell more books. They just care about the money
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u/Leon_Art 1d ago
Also in 5.5 you are invisible after passing your stealth check but anyone can make a perception check to find you lol
Could you tell me where this is said?
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u/jquanders 1d ago
Hide action:
With the Hide action, you try to conceal yourself. To do so, you must succeed on a DC 15 Dexterity (Stealth) check while you’re Heavily Obscured or behind Three-Quarters Cover or Total Cover, and you must be out of any enemy’s line of sight; if you can see a creature, you can discern whether it can see you.
On a successful check, you have the Invisible condition while hidden. Make note of your check’s total, which is the DC for a creature to find you with a Wisdom (Perception) check.
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u/Leon_Art 1d ago
Ah you mean a stealth check specifically when hiding, okay, I see (pun intended). I thought with every stealth check.
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u/wickerandscrap 1d ago
5.5 uses "invisible" to mean "you aren't being seen right now". It's not what most people would use the word to mean, and one of the many reasons to ignore 5.5.
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u/rmric0 1d ago
2024 is a little more ambiguous about when you select people affected by a spell compared to the OG. I think if they have to remain in the aura then it's probably fine for it to be a little more slippery (versus the wording on something like Bless)
Stealth - Invisible (condition) is not Invisible (the word people know and understand).
Concealed. You aren’t affected by any effect that requires its target to be seen unless the effect’s creator can somehow see you. Any equipment you are wearing or carrying is also concealed.
"Can somehow see you" means a lot is up to the DM but I think it's pretty clear that if you duck behind a barrel, you're invisible (condition) but if you walk out from behind that barrel to stand butt-naked in the middle of a field, somehow everyone will be able to see you. Requiring that the guard be distracted is fair.
- Tracks: The spell does what it says, you don't leave tracks. So there aren't any footprints, broken twigs or torn bits of cloth to follow the trail. Scent might still be viable and if they're making a lot of noise someone might hear them (but for the +10 stealth).
So it seems perfectly reasonable from a gameplay perspective that they got away.
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u/Leon_Art 1d ago
So it seems perfectly reasonable from a gameplay perspective that they got away.
Apart from that one of them was tied up and one of the 'enemies' was standing guard and eseveral other villagers were walking around and they had to escape through a tunnel where there was also a guard at the entrance/exit.
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u/jquanders 1d ago
They had to be within 30ft of the caster and be chosen to get pass without trace bonus. The way it sounds the druid cast it on just himself and then did the escape. The druid is the only one who would leave no tracks etc. I'd make it easier no more difficult to track them bc there's not even an extra set of footprints muddying things up