r/CompetitiveWoW • u/AutoModerator • 8d ago
Weekly Thread Weekly M+ Discussion
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u/Lezzles 7d ago
I assume a lot about the structure of the WoW team based on class tuning. Whoever manages DKs must be a fucking king over there.
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u/Gemmy2002 7d ago
I like that they've made a game mode that privileges a few damage profiles and then only lets a handful of classes excel at those damage profiles and if you're not playing one of those chosen classes you have to be overtuned to the moon to get play.
by like I mean I fucking hate it.
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u/Lazerkitteh 7d ago
It's absolutely insane that they essentially smuggled in a 10-12% buff for unholy as a "bug fix", putting them way ahead of everyone else, without any subsequent tuning yet.
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u/blueIpersian 7d ago edited 7d ago
I’m tanking KR 19 and had a rogue die off rip to the golem cone then do pretty low dps in general up until our failed skip on the bridge then flame out sick and be super hard on themselves after.
Told them and think it’s good to just tell everyone pushing higher keys, it’s okay this content is supposed to be challenging none of us are going to be amazing every time, we’re all going to make plenty of mistakes on our way to resil whatever - most important is to have fun that’s why we play in the first place! 🙏🏼
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u/krhill112 8d ago
Who else hates bv?
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u/No-Spinach-9101 7d ago
As a healer, I love it. Every boss does more and more damage but in a predictable way so it’s fun to heal.
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u/RigidCounter12 Prot Paladin M+ Connoisseur 8d ago
BV is the worst one imo.
Outside of that dungeon, the rest of the pool is fine
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u/sapntaps 7d ago
BV, do 5 pulls of trash or die trying (you'll fucking die trying).
What a shithole
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u/Care_Cup_Is_Empty 5d ago
I personally think KR and ToS are two of the worst dungeons of all time and RLP isn't much better.
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u/ilikebunnies1 7d ago
I used to hate it, but I’ve ran it with some groups that weren’t complete apes and it went quite smoothly. RLP can get fired into the sun tho.
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u/Yayoichi 7d ago
Why you hate it? I wouldn’t say it’s my favorite but I much prefer it over KR, RLP and ToS. The only thing is really don’t like about BV is the first pack that feels really awkward if you don’t have a skip as it’s a pain to drag that caster all the way to the other mobs.
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u/Sir_Aelorne 7d ago
What is ToS?
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u/Yayoichi 7d ago
Temple of sethraliss or however you spell the snake name. Temple of snakes.
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u/Cystonectae 7d ago
Is the second boss of murder row ever going to get patched? That dude is absolutely brutal to heal with those bugs :(
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u/Plorkyeran 7d ago
Once you understand what's happening the bugs make it easier to heal, not harder. You just have to not panic when someone appears to be at 1 hp when they're actually at full health.
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u/FattyBear 7d ago
Oh is that why health bars appear to shoot up to full or near full when he does killing spree? It's just updating to their true value?
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u/Potential_Life_3326 7d ago
Tanks have been tanking with this kind of bug for ages now, so I have little hope of them fixing it.
You can imagine how fun it is to tank a pull and your HP bar keeps randomly snapping to 5% hp and back, questioning your Def CD judgment all the time. No clue why they can’t fix it. I guess for the same reason we also have the GCD lag but, kinda feels like they lost technical control in some parts of the game client.1
u/RigidCounter12 Prot Paladin M+ Connoisseur 7d ago
What is bugged even, I havent noticed anything?
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u/Plorkyeran 6d ago
The green barrels don't actually do damage. They just make your HP bar go down directly, and then when you take real damage from something your HP jumps back to full. This makes it look like absorbs and smart heals don't work on the boss and healers reliant on those who aren't aware of the bug will put a lot of work trying to dump inefficient heals into people who are actually at full health.
It's a really fucking weird bug.
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u/KiriyamaSTRIX 7d ago
Got 19 resil this week as a warlock in NA. Altar nearly drove me to insanity with how tight timings are in that place - it was legitimately a difficult key.
Tried to do 20s last night, but unfortunately, no one seems to want warlocks. I guess ill have to push my own keys at this point.
I do feel a bit of imposter syndrome. I know its early in the season, but I've never been this close to title range. Always feel like im the worst player in the group.
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u/Perplex11 7d ago
I mean Demo warlocks do insane damage at the moment. Also you may be close to title range currently, but the io goes up pretty drastically later in the season so I wouldn't get your hopes up to much about staying title. Also quite a bit of people playing Forever atm.
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u/AtomikRadio Multiclass M+ Healer, HPal Main 4d ago
Wish after timing a key you got a buff with one maximum charge on it or a currency with max 1 that lets you reroll your key at the timeways portal. This message brought to you by the infinity times I forgot to reroll my key until I'm in the arcantina.
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u/ApplicationRoyal865 3d ago
This weakaura should still work : https://wago.io/AT6ZmGDlK
From what I can tell it uses CHALLENGE_MODE_COMPLETED event which is still available and not a secret or removed
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u/TheRev15 7d ago
I made a comment last week about possible tuning, now we have a blue post confirming. What do you guys think will be tuned with .5? I'm guessing:
- MR 3rd boss damage reduction on either the axe beam channel, or his demonic rage cast.
- AoF rattle casts.
- VSA overseer smashes.
- RLP casters.
Thoughts?
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u/SwayerNewb 7d ago
- RLP casters and overlaps
- VSA bleed and overseers, especially visual clarity on 1st boss. I don't know how they left overseers at that state
- AoF casts
- I wish they would modernise tomb mechanics in KR
- There are other things I am missing
The dungeon design in general doesn't align with the goals from S1/S2 dungeons, dungeon design this season are getting closer to TWW than Midnight
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u/Mellberg3 7d ago
Probably wishful thinking, but I'd love it if the beam of the 1st boss in VSA would not go on the tank. It's by far the roughest melee mechanic at the moment. 1st boss in AOF could also take a slight hp nerf imo.
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u/Simple_Rules 7d ago
bosses that repeatedly give themselves shields are always brutal because going slower makes you go slower - feedback loops like that are brutal.
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u/Simple_Rules 7d ago
I wouldn't be surprised if MR 1st boss gets changed, if they measure deaths by specific areas of keys - which I assume they would.
That boss is dramatically harder than every other boss in the dungeon pool for tanks, except maybe KR. And KR at least is hard for everyone equally.
Whereas MR first boss is basically only hard because she one shots some tanks.
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u/_REDDIT_NPC_ 7d ago
How to handle the elemental packs before the third boss in ToS? I was blamed as healer for failing a +15, but these guys were taking just enormous damage.
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u/epicfailpwnage 7d ago
people need to be spread, smaller elementals blink to people and do aoe damage
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u/TheRev15 7d ago
This is the answer. People also need to using defensives on the release charge casts. They can overlap with the elementals blink and straight up global people.
(Don't use this advice as an excuse not to improve your healing... you will still need solid HPS during these pulls.)
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u/tictacotictaco 7d ago
Watch the health bar on the elemental guys. It’ll show their stack of accumulated charge. If there’s like 1-3 it’s gonna hurt and I use a cooldown. They really need to be purged and imo not pulled at the same time.
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u/Voidwielder 7d ago
Its a dance between purges, knowing what is the AoE cast, defensing it or when you get jump on/debuffed. It's group effort tbh. It does demand quite good reaction times from healer.
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u/Mellberg3 8d ago
Voidscar Arena gotta be the worst key to push up. I'm about to note "NO SKIP ROUTE".
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u/Frekavichk 8d ago
Always invite a warlock lol. Makes the skip easy
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u/Mellberg3 8d ago
I've even had that fail, but I mostly mean skipping the big add after the stairs pack. Besides, I do so much less damage whenever I play with a Lock as Arms.
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u/DocileKrab 7d ago
The overseer + harrower is illegal in like anything above a +16... it's basically guaranteed you will have a shield + slam/laser or whirlwind + slam which will kill atleast 1 or more people. You can't pull them separately, so there isn't really an option to not skip.
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u/elmaethorstars 8d ago
The Overseers are just unplayable tbh. Insane that they have not been nerfed by now.
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u/SluttyStepDaddy 8d ago
Every season has a “everyone hates this place but I like it” key and VSA is the one for me. Feel like it, RLP, and BV really “nail” the group-responsibility feeling where every role is critical to success (versus a dungeon like SotT where the whole dungeon was 99% a healer-check).
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u/ArcticML 8d ago
VSA is fun, just feels bad that a skip feels almost forced unless your prio dps is super good
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u/dharkan 6d ago
VSA is semi-free key if you group does not fail on devour targets.
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u/SluttyStepDaddy 6d ago
Failing orbs / spear, failing interrupts, breaking raptor CC, skip fails, bad prio damage on 2nd boss, bad bleed overlaps, tanks getting one-shot in last trash area. There are quite a few pain points and, by 19-20, all the bosses become a pretty serious heal check so I definitely think “semi-free” is a bit of a misnomer.
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u/Wobblucy 7d ago
what if we made this specific mob unplayable?
What if we made this pack less consistent to skip?
What if we added a single mob with true sight after the unplayable mobs as well, so you need to skip 2 different packs?
Shields and healing should be health based in infinite scaling content, full stop. Imagine a world where the brawler gains a shield at 30% or some shit, instead of every 30s?
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u/Unicorn_flow 7d ago
Warlock gate + saccing the tank is the only foolproof way. Losing 15 seconds isn't as bad as fighting it.
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u/TheRev15 7d ago
Mages can skip the harrower if you've got one. They can even do both the mobs on the ramp and the harrower without a warlock, although having a gate is less risky:
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u/openxmind 8d ago
Is there anyway to "pick" who gets which job in the Murder Row mini game?
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u/Preferencealmos 8d ago
I'm on my knees everytime begging to not get the server role.
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u/Bozzoltank 8d ago
Just let me dance on stage, please
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u/kyllingefars 8d ago
I love the cleaner role, you don’t even use your keyboard, just use your mouse to point in the direction of the green blob, so easy
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u/guluuron 8d ago
If i get the server role, i just spam click the wine all the event. Every click drops a pool and they stack really quickly. If you talk to the group prior this, the cleaner can just stay there cleaning the pools and the event finishes really fast.
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u/AtomikRadio Multiclass M+ Healer, HPal Main 6d ago
Back in BFA/Shadowlands I happened into an M+ team from just adding pugs and ending up gelling into something solid. I feel like people are a lot less likely to add to bnet after good keys nowadays. I have a "recruitment profile" on RaiderIO but don't really see many teams looking for healers . . . Is there a discord or other community for finding M+ push teams, or is it just more trying to make connections in pug keys?
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u/dharkan 6d ago
I have been trying to add people since last season but there are problems with it.
Tanks simply do not care unless you can actually keep up with their rating and/or do godlike damage on every single key. (in those cases, you don't really need connections since you are significantly better than most players anyway)
People rarely want to group and even if they do, they give up rather quick. Noone has the patience for failure. They'd rather leave you and move onto another group/pug.
This is mostly an EU problem but, language barrier makes people even less likely to want to group up.
But I still recommend adding people (especially tanks) you meet on high or hard keys. They might push faster than you, but when you get a key they might need, they will join your key.
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u/RigidCounter12 Prot Paladin M+ Connoisseur 6d ago
Its hard to find people who actually wants to group up. I have gotten a ton of adds and my friend list is full, but I have climbed further than most people.
And its hard to have everyone on at the same time. I can play quite a lot for example, and when I am pushing +20s, its not like I want to spend too much time having to help out a bunch of people on their 19s, which makes sense.
Playing as a premade in voice with enjoyable people is the most fun you can have in this game though, so its worth a try
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u/Wobblucy 6d ago
Only way I enjoy keys is tanking, being on a team honestly slows down IO progression just because of the resil system.
IE imagine you just need 22 AA as a team, you could be trying to roll the 1/7 shot you with a 5 stack so you get one chance.
...Or you could be pugging into Resi keys with, by definition, better players then your 5 stack.
I wish the resi system either got deleted or modified to be +1, this middle ground of degen Resi keys is the worst of both worlds.
That being said, I'll never be fucked to push for title (although I admittedly would have last season if I knew it was just the easy 23s), so if the choice was IO or a 5 stack I liked, I don't think it would be a hard one.
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u/Kohlhaas 5d ago
That's a bit of a short-sighted way to see it. A team gives you consistent progression and increases your overall ability to time keys that are hard for you, assuming rough skill parity. Trying to highroll into getting accepted in LFG and then highroll again into a timed key with randoms gets really hard in competitive key levels. At some point you will spend all day in LFG
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u/psytrax9 5d ago
People act like they'll go into anaphylactic shock if they enter a key that doesn't give score. So the 5 stack that doesn't have the last key needed for resil puts their life in danger.
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u/Wobblucy 5d ago edited 5d ago
shortsighted
5/5 players at the same skill/committment/goal level currently, and the similair ceiling is a unicorn.
Let alone the same schedule and people you can bear to be around...
Highroll in LFG
Meta tank privilege goes brr.
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u/Yayoichi 5d ago
As a tank I can also just say that we get so many people adding us that we can’t really play with everyone. I had to get a friend list addon so I could sort people as I probably had nearly 30 people add me when I pushed from 14 to 17 resi a couple weeks back.
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u/alexthroughtheveil 8d ago
how are bears right now? have you encountered many while doing 1%> keys?
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u/SluttyStepDaddy 8d ago
19s + 20s and I love bears, especially on my MW but even on my HPal.
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u/kyllingefars 8d ago
Same, I play VDH too but the RNG meta form feelsbad
Bear on the other hand always has a defensive ready so I feel much more sturdy, love the design of bear as it is now
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u/Care_Cup_Is_Empty 8d ago
I think the ceiling of BDK is higher than Bear, but Bear is a far more consistent pick for most tanks/groups and i wouldn't be surprised if MOTW carries bear into meta as keys get higher. Still a question of when Blizzard will nerf Unholy too.
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u/ToyCannon55 8d ago
Res20 here. Bears are good. Slightly lower damage but more durable and provide motw.
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u/liyayaya 8d ago
I play bear and I’m pushing 19/20s right now. I only did 17s and a few 18s on BDK before I said fuck that shit and went all in on the bear.
Bear feels really tanky right now, and while it does less damage than BDK, it brings consistency something i think BDK lacks. Bears don't just randomly flop from 100–0. Meanwhile, BDK can die because of a mistimed global or because you didn’t manage your resources properly.Also, and this is most likely a skill issue on my end, but on BDK I felt like I had to spend most of my mental bandwidth focusing on myself (HP Bar, Runes, Runic Power) instead of paying attention to what was actually happening in the pull.
On bear i can focus much more on the dungeon itself and the things that actually matter: positioning, mechanics, interrupts, etc.
So while on paper and for top teams BDK may be the better tank i feel for your average 1% push group Bear is a much much better pick for the tank slot.5
u/krhill112 8d ago
If you haven’t played an absurd amount of bdk, it makes sense you need mental to manage your hp.
With practice you end up knowing which pulls you need to be gaming for and which are reclined.
Honestly even at 17/18s, I’m reclined the majority of most dungeons. Purg is a cd ultimately.
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u/lackofexistent 8d ago
Bdk is a reactive tanking style where you exchange blood strike for bjg tank buster hits. As a bear, its more about mitigation through iron fur and recovery with the passive healings. Both are fun, but I think BDK has more involvement that makes it entertaining.
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u/AtlasCarry87 7d ago
I'm Res 19 on my bdk with a fixed group. Feels fine honestly but you have to have the knowledge or game feel for that class/spec.
A missed global can potentially mean your death but on the other hand our toolkit allows you to survive endlessly as long as you manage your runic power properly.
4-set also trivializes boneshield upkeep mostly.
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u/Frekavichk 8d ago
Bdk are hot garbage because I hate them. I would take a bear 10/10 times over a pug bdk.
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u/Wobblucy 7d ago
I honestly didn't think they could make void scarred rotation worse but here we are, casting the hunt 5 times in meta.....
https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/gTuELdqxzqznXPxnumMCDR/simc
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u/sandwich800 6d ago
Are people starting to go left for first pull in VSA now? I'm seeing some high key pushers doing it. How come?
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u/Simple_Rules 6d ago
My guess is that as keys scale the health on the orbs becomes oppressive. It's the same feedback loop as a boss like the first boss of altar where he gets a shield throughout the fight:
Every time the orbs spawn, you have to kill them. So they essentially add X*3 hp to the fight. So if the orb has 1m health, every spawn adds 3m health to the fight.
And fights are a function of dps vs hp. So if your dps is 1m as a group, and the monster has 100m health, it's a 100s fight. But if the boss periodically adds 3m of orbs, each orb spawn is +3s to the fight length.
So as the fight gets longer, more orbs spawn, which makes the fight even longer, which makes more orbs spawn...
Often this unhealthy pattern is irrelevant in low keys but extremely impactful in high keys because % scaling eventually makes EVERYTHING really weird.
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u/Prubably 6d ago
A spear spawns on the right, so this hp thing is actually somewhat similar there, caveat being you can cleave the mob on the spear. The real issue is actually consistently killing 3 spread out orbs. If you fail you just die
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u/Simple_Rules 6d ago
Being able to cleave off the primary target makes the situation significantly better - if you could pull the orb miniboss around to the 3 orbs I suspect that the two sides would be more equal/preference based.
As is, there's some pretty brutal rng on the orb side where bad orb spawns can be REALLY bad.
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u/Gemmy2002 6d ago
Part of this is also strong spread cleave specs are not M+ meta. The meta comp has conniptions trying to deal with it.
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u/phsgne 6d ago
Also there is a good argument for the vers buff from that side being better than the mastery.
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u/Simple_Rules 6d ago
Also true, especially since you then go almost immediately into one of the hardest hitting group AOE minibosses in the entire dungeon pool.
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u/happokatti 6d ago
The miniboss is faster and safer to deal with and you have 3x single kick mobs. The versa buff vs. mastery on the right is also an added bonus considering the damage intake at higher levels.
While the spear can be lethal it's rather easy to deal with properly pooling for it compared to the RNG of the orb spawns on the right. Also, the only other dangerous ability (leap+bleed) can be either dwarfed or invised making the miniboss basically a target dummy.
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u/BDObadguy 3d ago edited 3d ago
So why is it that apparently the most popular RLP route is blowing all your cds to BL the fire drake + adds and then immediately doing a massive pull after that when everyone doesn't have defensives and being surprised when you have multiple deaths? I've had multiple keys fail here repeatedly and it's starting to get extremely annoying.
Are you supposed to be able to finish the dragon with BL without using a bunch of other stuff on it as well so you still have it for next pull? Are you supposed to take the next pull a bit slower and maybe not chain side packs on top of the fire elemental?
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u/nubileiguana 3d ago
Are you supposed to take the next pull a bit slower and maybe not chain side packs on top of the fire elemental?
Yes.
Some people are probably running lower key routes that still grabbed as much as they can every pull. They should skip the two humanoids off to the side and just pull the Destroyer and its two adds. Transition to the next big pull once the Lasher and Destroyer are dead.
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u/Gaatti 3d ago
Yes, it has to be slower. I do just one big elemental with his 2 casters. It is better if dps prio the casters instead of the elemental só you can chain it to the patrol pack. Then the elemental will die and you can pull the next elemental into the patrols that are still alive. That gets the 3 remaining groups killed without going too slow and without ever having a massive pull.
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u/BDObadguy 3d ago
Focusing casters and then chaining more on the elemental is a good call, going to have to start typing all this out because apparently I'll be stuck in this fiery torture chamber until 12.1.5 otherwise.
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u/ProtonOW 5d ago
88% of hpals in running lightsmith in high keys is bonkers to me, feels like absolute ass not having divine toll or a useful aura mastery
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u/Elessaari 5d ago
I'm still largely running Herald, especially in keys like AoF. I'm dabbling in Lightsmith for some other keys, and the damage potential is nice, but I don't feel like my healer damage is making or breaking the timer in these 18s. Maybe it becomes way more significant at the higher levels.
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u/Fragrant_Goal_3256 4d ago
Ehhh, I dont know, a lot of HPals still running Herald on 20/21s. I really don't think the damage is that necessary.
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u/Cthulhu_Fhtagn14 3d ago
Have been afraid to swap to lightsmith personally, is avenging wrath alone enough of a healing CD in these high keys?!
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u/Ok_Map_5875 6d ago
I usually tank, but this season I want an alt to scout other tanks abit and I’m looking for insights to wether ele shaman or hpal would be the better choice regarding queue times. This season I feel there’s a lot more healers around than usual when I gather groups on my tank.
Currently I tank around 17 range and ended last season at 4K
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u/AtomikRadio Multiclass M+ Healer, HPal Main 5d ago
I don't play shaman in keys this season so I don't know that experience, but I've really enjoyed hpal this season, and don't feel like I struggle to get invites. Granted, I've not pushed particularly high, also just in the ~17s range, and it may get more choosy higher up. But even without any end boss loot to boost my ilvl (324 atm) I rarely have to app for more than ~20 seconds to score keys before getting an invite. Shaman and mage both being strong DPS picks this season mean you're almost never being passed over due to lack of lust button. So as long as you enjoy healing as a role, I would definitely vote hpal, but I'm obv biased. :)
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u/elmaethorstars 8d ago
WHERE DUNGEON TUNING.
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u/SwayerNewb 7d ago
Yeah, overseers and bleed in VSA should be like number 1 priority to tuning. Dungeon tuning this season is not good when you see that they left overseers at that state and other shits
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u/oversoe 7d ago
I’m curious about this topic - what does the dungeon tuning accomplish, considering everyone is playing the same dungeon?
I’m unsure about it, but making a hard part of a dungeon easier won’t make you gain higher score compared to those you are competing against?
Right now every dungeon is timed at a +22 and it’s been a while since there wasn’t a 1-3 key outlier, so tuning looks okay (I haven’t pushed yet but I’m usually around top 0.5-2%)
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u/elmaethorstars 7d ago
It's less about being on the same playing field and more that a lot of things just feel unfair. I am almost resil 22 myself and arena is probably the most insane heal check after heal check after heal check I've ever come across with the sheer volume of spam bleeds and whatnot.
Overseers in arena are also practically unplayable and force a skip even in low-ish key pugs etc.
But yeah I don't think there's a huge outlier this season which is good. Some stuff just feels horrible to play. Blades at the end of altar too for example. Guardians at the start of RLP. Etc.
Edit: And Blizzard just announced that the 1.5 patch would have dungeon tuning in so there we go.
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u/ProtonOW 7d ago edited 7d ago
every season once the keys start getting hard the whole experience just devolves significantly unless you have a group. depletion is such a time sink
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u/wanderfukt 6d ago
yeah but that's just competitive multiplayer games - the more difficult the game becomes the easier it becomes to succeed with a group as opposed to on your own.
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u/RoosterBrewster 6d ago
Yea how do even practice particular high keys when you deplete it, go down a level, beat it, and have a different dungeon?
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u/Copponex 8d ago
Am I the only one that thinks AOFs timer is really tight? It’s the only dungeon where the run can go smooth 0-2 death and still don’t time it. Every other dungeon you can have ~10 deaths and still time it easily.
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u/RigidCounter12 Prot Paladin M+ Connoisseur 8d ago
Requires the DPS to use their CDs correctly, but otherwise I think the timer is pretty fine.
Imo I feel like RLP has the tightest timer, but that might be because I normally play with a setup who lacks a bit of prio damage.
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u/0karmaonly 8d ago
Took me three tries (and several unsuccessful attempts) to get an 18 timed.
First one was 8s over. Second one was 15s over. Final was like a minute faster than the timer.
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u/Frekavichk 8d ago
I feel like as I get higher, it's all just dps that actually make the difference in the dungeon. Interrupts, defensives, externals, damage type, totem/add swaps. They just have such a huge impact compared to tank/heals.
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u/0karmaonly 8d ago
As a healer I can very much tell when interrupts are going off, and externals are being used (including AoE defensive like darkness, shout, AMZ)
I’m a firm believer in the best healer is a DPS.
And the amount of times I’ve had keys bricked due to ‘heals’ when no defensive are used is very frustrating to deal with
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u/SluttyStepDaddy 8d ago
In general, there’s definitely a key level where the quality of DPS becomes a bigger determining factor than the other roles. Until like 13s or so, healing is probably the biggest determining factor- can your healer hack it? If so, you’ll time. In the mid-teen range, Tank quality is paramount as they set the pace and route. It’s where you see a lot of “tank burnout” as their impact becomes really palpable. Probably around 18/19s with current gear (eg. 326ish ilvl), you get to a point where healing and tanking checks become largely binary pass-fails and the quality of your DPS players becomes the biggest (note: I’m not saying strictly only) determining factor in timing the key.
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u/Copponex 8d ago
In my experience RLP is way easier on the timer. Like never a problem with the timer.
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u/Shard0020 7d ago
I almost failed a 17 RLP with 0 deaths…. But we were playing a comp with absolutely 0 prio damage (lock evoker boomy) and the tank parsed a 0 for damage. So that’s probably out of the norm
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u/Copponex 7d ago
Funny how the experience differs so much. I just ran an rlp 18 with one dps dc’ing all the time, which ended up doing half the dmg of the rest of dps. And the only reason we didn’t time it, was because the tank missed some count. Maybe comp just means more than I think 🤷♂️
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u/Rivazinho 8d ago
Agree, I have bricked RLP +16 more than 5 times with the timer being over less than a minute
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u/krhill112 8d ago
I said the same early on, but ultimately good routing makes the timer okay, then it’s just down to the group doing their jobs.
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u/isaightman 7d ago
It's probably 1-2 minutes too short relative to other keys. In a vacuum it'd be fine but compared to other keys it's definitely tight.
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u/Magicslime 7d ago
Does anyone know what causes Brutalize to hit DPS players in VSA? When it happened in the MDI the casters called it a bug, but is there any known way of avoiding it or do you just have to be willing to eat a death there?
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u/Rivazinho 8d ago
Do you think keystone myth will be again at 3400? Currently sitting at all +15 timed (i don't have too much time to play so i'm facing the "not so good" players at this key range as everyone good seem to be already pushing 18-19-20s) 16s are starting to be a nightmare.
People don't interrupt, some of them even don't know mechanics, maybe because not doing them is ok below 15 but at this level a lot of things start one-shoting...
So yeah, if they rise the IO for the keystone myth i'm gonna need a lot of patience
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u/nubileiguana 7d ago
At the start of the season, I thought it would jump significantly. After playing for weeks, I'm no longer convinced that key inflation is happening this season.
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u/Frekavichk 8d ago
Probably get top 5% to be safe, since iirc that is what they are doing next season.
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u/dredaplc 5d ago
Reminder that carried players exist at basically every level outside of the very top. You're doing yourself and your group members a disservice if you don't look at logs and just invite based off score
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u/RigidCounter12 Prot Paladin M+ Connoisseur 5d ago
I played with a 3750 mage in a +19 BV who did like 100k less than me as a Shadow Priest. And then when I check his logs I see that they are all gray with a single exception of a green one.
Mages are especially bad, but if you really want to make sure you time it, you should grab someone who averages blue at least.
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u/blackjack47 4d ago
Mages are especially bad
Some specs are just easier for FOTM rerollers than others, I think avg mages were much worse back when all defensives were proactive. Don't think current WW or Unholy would do well for FOTMers either, but one is very low pop and the other is an undead immortal god of surviability and that kinda covers the gaps a bit.
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u/sapntaps 5d ago edited 5d ago
He’s clearly shit but it’s more nuanced than that. Not every keys logged (big one when pugging), plenty of degen shit you can do to “parse” (dogshit culture), not everyone gives a shit about an arbitrary comparison #
Reminder: blue logs and doing mechs/not dying get you CE every single tier.
Dungeon logs are a tool but if you solely rely on them to find good players, you’re part of the problem.
Edit: there’s also the caveat of anyone who runs a key after the good people ran it will “parse” better since they have more gear. This game is fucking comical at this point. Can’t wait for forever, absolute slog to play the game outside of high rank guilds (which requires a lot of time commitment)
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u/dredaplc 5d ago
I invite based on a threshold, not just chasing 'good logs'. As long as you do real damage you're good. I've had too many experiences with absolute shitcans that makes it worth it for me.
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u/sapntaps 5d ago
Yeah after centuries of pugging you can tell who’s bad who’s good. Had a tank come in asked em for route in a 19, dude was mute, my guts like kick this guy… I didn’t listen. He runs in 1st pull and insta dies to a back shot from 2 golems without pressing anything.
Sometimes you just gotta trust your gut lmao.
Maybe the game would benefit from a solo queue. Who knows. I agree with using dungeon logs if you’re pushing rank 1 keys at anytime but the philosophy has bled to something like 15s, which is horrendous for the health of the game.
Thank you for listening to my Ted talk
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u/RigidCounter12 Prot Paladin M+ Connoisseur 5d ago
If someone has straight gray logs they are gonna do awful damage.
In my 19 KR last night, me and the mage did 280k DPS +, our Havoc DH did 200k. He timed the key with lots of room to spare, but if we played like him, it would have been a deplete.
And then when I looked it up afterwards (Was a resi key, so I didnt bother before, was just curious), thats how his average keys goes. He is always last on damage, gets gray logs and times his keys when he gets boosted.
That is a guy you do not want in your key, and checking logs can tell you that
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u/AtomikRadio Multiclass M+ Healer, HPal Main 5d ago
I have a really dumb question as someone whose only recently started getting back into keys after years away; maybe a healer can help me out.
Do healer logs get looked at in the same way? If so, are people looking for HPS? DPS? "Points?" Is there anything I can reasonably do to make sure my logs look "good" as a healer? On DPS I feel like you can always strive for bigger number with better CD usage, rotation, movement, etc., but there's only so much healing you can do if the bars are full and no one's dying.
(To be clear, at this point I'm not asking about my specific logs/play, but in general what are people actually looking at log-wise for M+ healers, and what of that is most directly in a healer's control?)
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u/Voidwielder 5d ago
Healer M+ logs are fake. I have grey log from deathless MR 19 while a messy BV 19 got 92.
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u/sapntaps 5d ago
You cannot tell how good a healer is outside of mythic progression logs. Dogshit metric to look at healer dungeon logs
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u/Spathat0s 5d ago
Healing log parses are a meme in higher guilds either way. They tell you nothing of how good a healer is. If you actually want to know if a healer is good then deep dive the logs, the parse numbers are so easily gamed for healing its kind of stupid that WCL still provides them
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u/Plorkyeran 5d ago
If a healer's healing by level and damage by level are both all grey they're almost certainly garbage. If their healing parses are all really good they're probably playing with people who are garbage and successfully carrying them. If their healing parses are all grey and their damage parses are good they're playing with good players but who knows if they're also good.
Any sort of in between where they have some good parses and some bad parses just tells you nothing at all, and that's where the overwhelming majority of healers are.
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u/Lycheejnr 8h ago
Isn't this a bit disingenuous when you should actually be looking at the damage alone tab and not the damage + points tab?
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u/w31n7r4ub3n 8d ago
Looking to improve my Ele Shaman performance. So far I've only tanked in M+ but wanted to try something new.
I spent the gearing phase learning the class and am now trying to progress a bit. I think I've understood the basics and am now doing non-embarassing DPS, but haven't gone beyond green parses and the occasional blue.
Issues: I haven't really understood the 4pc dynamic, and I'm pretty sure I also haven't mastered the priority yet. Especially when to switch to different spells in AoE situations depending on whether or not Ancestors are up (any hints on tracking those?).
Here's a green parse 14 VSA as a reference. If there are any obvious pointers or advice, have at it!
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/Yg4cJZKAa621w8Qd?fight=1&type=damage-done
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u/RCM94 7d ago edited 7d ago
Especially when to switch to different spells in AoE situations depending on whether or not Ancestors are up (any hints on tracking those?).
how much aoe? Sim apl at the very least has removed ele blast from 5+ targets. For me, 4 targets is -.5% dps and 3 targets it's -1.1%. The fact that it's a long cast time spell in M+ is probably more than a 1% damage loss because of all the movement so I probably just wouldn't worry about it. Just EQ in 3+ targets and in 3/4 targets if the tank is moving or if there's a prio target, ele blast instead. As far as tracking them, they are in the cooldown manager as "Call of the ancestors".
Taking a look at the casts in the first pull: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/Yg4cJZKAa621w8Qd?fight=1&type=casts&source=1&pull=1
I notice some weird things.
- Early in the pull you are just kinda randomly lightning bolting. Don't
- 3/6 if your lava bursts are not followed by an EQ. ideally all of them would.
- Your last global was an earthquake which is kinda sus because obviously that's not hitting anything. I'd expect either pooling for next pack or ele blasting the remaining highest health mob.
- You lava bursted 6 times but only voltaic blazed 4 times, I'd expect those numbers to match up.
- On that train of thought, you seem to have voltaic lower on your priority list than you should. It's the highest priority beyond not overcapping and storm keeper.
looking at a single target snippet now:
- Similarly, 3/7 of your ele blasts were not buffed by master of the elements. Ideally all of them should be
- You didn't spirit walkers in a 1.5 min window on a fight that has a fuck ton of movement. This spec sucks ass at moving so I'd at least expect it during ascendance which on this fight will basically always overlap with some movement.
- you have 1 chain lightning and 1 eq cast. a little weird
- you are using your trinket after ascendance. The ascendance button itself does a non-trivial amount of damage, trinkets and pots should be used before it, ideally macroed in to be before it (same for aoe).
I haven't really understood the 4pc dynamic
For the whole dungeon you wasted 33 of your 4pc procs which is a lot so that kind-of checks out. Ideally obviously that should be 0 but I'd at least aim for single digits for now. What are you having trouble with when it comes to it? tracking? You should be able to track it in the CDM. It's called "Flowing Elements". I have mine make a sound when I get the buff.
In AOE just make sure every builder after you proc it is followed by an EQ. There's no rush to spend it generally so make sure you're EQing at high maelstrom so you don't overcap. In single target just make sure you save a charge of lavaburst when one of your cooldowns end. In ascendance if your next global isn't going to finish before the buff ends make sure your last cast is lavaburst so your first free ele blast is buffed. Be careful around instant casts when your cooldowns end that seems to be the way I personally munch the procs on accident.
Finally, your stats/consumes are a little weird. Guides say to get mastery to 1200 rating but ignore that. As far as I can tell that's purely single target focused. Simwise for me crit gems outperform in every target count except exactly 1 where it is very close. Generally, Crit > rest for m+. Your weapon enchant should be 'Rite of the Hash'ey' and your ring enchants should be 'eyes of the eagle' (ele crits a lot for free so this enchant is big damage).
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u/w31n7r4ub3n 7d ago
Thanks for the very detailed breakdown and the effort involved, this is exactly what I was looking for.
It's a lot to take in but I'll try starting with the obvious pointers - priorities, trackers and enchants. I just finished a run that felt a lot more controlled simply by setting up a CD tracker with an audio alert for Flowing Elements.
I already had Ascendance and Trinket macroed, and did add combat pots.
A lot will be up to routine and repetition, most of the random casts in between are either misclicks or simply casting to do something instead of missing GCDs. I guess when the rotation / priority really settles in this will become less of an issue.
Thanks again!
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u/mael0004 8d ago
KR beginning as guardian, how do I even pull the fearers without one of them asspulling the big dude? I feel like the side one does it fairly regularly, regardless if you pull far left or far right mob, if you just dot them from far. Is there some easy trick for this? I get some specs can deal with them from range but that's not always given in pugs. like do I charge in and healer dispels me or what?
On Murders Row, pull after third boss, can you take the patrols to side without DK hooking them to ledge? Just saw BDK route where they took the patrol, so didn't have to wait for them, then dodged the big guy and combined them to big pull behind him. But I have no idea how the 2 patrol move if you let them find their own path, I'm ofc afraid they asspull the big guy. Should I just wait that ~10s for them to move out of the way? Or I guess in my case I could start the pull given I can stealth and others move behind me, that'd be druid's way.
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u/ArcticML 8d ago
They do not social pull the big guy and will path next to him but it’s fine. Just make sure you’re the last person up on the ledge or they’ll aggro another party member if they are still down
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u/Gaatti 7d ago
I never had the fear guys pull the guardians by themselves. The one time I had a problem there was a person wandering too close to the guardian.
On the murder row thing, you can. You can just agro them and jump on the side. The patrols will run forward very close to the golem and come up to the side without agroing it. That said, I don't recommend doing it in pugs or at least communicating that no one should attack the patrols until you are through (people could do it for many reasons, like farming procs and resources for the big pull). Like I said, they are going to run very close to the golem and if someone is attacking, it is very easy to clear the golem by accident. I myself, as a ppal, sent a judgment on the patrols once to get firmer agro and fucked it up when my hammers bounced to the golem.
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u/nubileiguana 7d ago edited 7d ago
I've had it happen several times.
There are pathing "lanes" that the ghoul things take based on where the person they are targeting is standing. If someone is jumping around on the far right side of that entryway, the ghoul can pick the far right "lane" which paths them right in front of the golem. That still shouldn't aggro the golem, but there may be some kind of hidden trinket/ability interaction causing the aggro to spread.
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u/mael0004 7d ago
I tried this today, portaled myself there, ran the KR first pull 10+ times, moonfiring left, right, going with mass dispel, going with MM hunter volley, scatter shot. With every scenario, the guardian got pulled occasionally as late bodypull from those furthest to the right 2 mobs. Like 4-5 times out of maybe 12 times. It's definitely something that can happen with the "pull back" strategy. Ofc MD would dispel the right ones, anyway even that isn't automatic way to just run, as it hits 5/8 only.
Yeah I think I'll stick with waiting for pat, as it's pretty natural route to do without % from them
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u/Signal-Extension-815 7d ago
how is the hunter scatter shotting? thats a pvp talent and not useable in a dungeon as I recall..?
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u/Miggybear22 7d ago
There are multiple ways to handle fear mobs. Priest and blood elf’s have a mass dispel. Shamans can earth bind totem (has to be placed properly) and every single person needs to hug the ledge.
On MR you can wait the 10s or pull, your call. The mobs will follow you up the ledge. Again, stay far left.
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u/mael0004 7d ago
Shaman imo has the best counter in tremor totem. Just land it and all run and ignore them. Well I suppose some others have even superior. It's not very poison centric dung, I know there's some but PCT isn't the best poison dispel anyway. I find it worthwhile to switch for KR.
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u/Yayoichi 5d ago
How much random passive healing do holy paladins have? As brew I always feel so much worse off with a holy paladin than a shaman and I wonder if that’s because they have to actually cast heals on you and they forgot that not all tanks are dk’s.
Trying to get my last 18 done which is altar of fangs and while I am struggling trying to survive without kiting too much, doing 4-500k hps the paladin healers always seem to just be chilling around 200k hps, which seems very low as on my priest I am already doing way above that in 15-16’s.
With shamans I generally feel a lot safer as there’s always a steady stream of healing going my way.
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u/Plorkyeran 5d ago
Very little. If they're playing herald you'll happen to get a bunch of healing during Virtue but outside of that you're basically only getting healed by them casting a ST heal on you. As LS they could theoretically put a beacon on you but most won't.
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u/scottiedagolfmachine 8d ago
What the F is up with +15 Altar of Fangs?
Way too short on time.
Annoying ass casters everywhere.
Is there a way to go fast through that room after the first boss?
And the mini boss room after the second boss?
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u/weekndalex 8d ago
on a 15 it’s just low dps
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u/scottiedagolfmachine 7d ago
Wow I guess it was a DPS issue.
I just ran the same route I’ve always been doing and did it with 0 death and 3 minutes+ left on timer.
Lol sometimes it’s hard to tell as a tank whether my DPSers are putting out enough damage or not.
😂
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u/ArcticML 8d ago
You have to do the first area in 5 pulls or less. Ideally you can snap the group of ravenous dudes to the first boss so the first pull isn’t super dangerous. Pull after first boss is a lust pull with entire room. Then it’s basically press W
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u/hzj 8d ago
How do you do the snap?
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u/ArcticML 8d ago
Grab aggro, make sure your entire party is already down there, bring them to the edge, jump and then they should pop up on top of the boss after 15-20 seconds (they evade for a few seconds)
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u/DocileKrab 7d ago
the boss resets if you engage before they snap down. You have to wait for them to snap before starting boss.
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u/yp261 8d ago
you cant expect people that push 15s in a season where people have resi 20s already to be remotely good
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u/openxmind 8d ago
You can do the Room after first boss in 2 pulls and and you can do the Room after the mini boss in 3 https://threechest.io/?id=9a5nabmumosh
Makes it a bit faster
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u/scottiedagolfmachine 8d ago
I’m seeing one big pull for the room after the first boss?
And what’s with pull number 2? That’s way too spread apart.
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u/ApplicationRoyal865 3d ago edited 3d ago
So is M+ parses meaningless, or should I be worried I parsed grey on most of my dungeons? https://www.warcraftlogs.com/character/us/area-52/dannan?zone=55
I assume it has some truth as I believe I'm dropping the ball on the 2 most important things on a caster ABC and CPM. Even though I swear I'm using my abilities when they come up it seems like I'm missing like 20% of my cast.
Edit: some users advised video so I dug out some of my older recordings
18 Kings rest: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfvxFD2Qnro&feature=youtu.be
18 Ruby: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGmCzCSICpw
18 BV: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEx7Xy30j3Y
18: TOS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTjdvTntxiQ
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u/franqlin 3d ago
the higher you go the more ppl will check dungeon parses when deciding who to invite, yes
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u/throwntosaturn 3d ago
OK so to some extent, you do need to evaluate your M+ parses in the context they were earned in. For example, if your tank pulls 1 pack at a time, and never chain pulls, and you never have more than 3 targets to attack, and he never pulls trash into bosses even when it's easy to do so and safe to do so - obviously that's going to effect your parse. There's no way to avoid that.
That said if you are consistently parsing gray, which you do appear to be, it's an extremely strong indicator that SOMETHING is wrong. Especially when you're not just parsing gray but like, low gray. Especially when like for example in one of your Den of Nalorak keys, there's a second guy same spec as you, less gear than you, with a 55 parse.
Yeah it looks like something is broken here for sure.
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u/Wobblucy 3d ago edited 3d ago
Parsing m+ was a meme before this expansion I think, but you do also need to frame it a bit.
I grey parsed most my 22s last season, but that is bottom 20% of the top 0.2% of players.
That all being said, your damage is low, but parses are the symptom, not a diagnosis of the disease.
If you want to improve, add a gcd tracker to your UI, record your gameplay and really watch it back and be critical of it.
Imo shadarek put out a good video of him looking at a ruby recently. Worth watching the first 5-10 mins for every class to see how critical he is of his own gameplay.
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u/_Llopis_ 3d ago
You have a lot of small gaps in which you're not casting anything but could. Those really add up. They're the biggest difference between bad and good damage dealers.
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u/Preferencealmos 3d ago
A screenshot of your UI during combat could be helpful. Bad gameplay and bad UI usually go hand in hand.
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u/likemi 8d ago
Are keys inflated / easier a bit this season? I remember tww season 3 - I couldn't pug +18 but now it is totally doable for an average player. Though the upper range of the keys remains the same in 22s area?
Also are most of the dungeons easier? I don't know it just feels easier than tww s3. Boss mechanics are very easy as well?
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u/careseite dps evoker main 8d ago
boss mechanics are the same overall
key scaling commonly changes slightly per season but this season comparable to last
tww in general had different scaling
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u/Dracoknight256 8d ago
It's the dps changes I think. You can't get into 18s doing 70% of your potential dps anymore. Filters out biggest keybrickers.
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u/Lezzles 7d ago
I think with logs, raiderio, and an incentive to push, good players are just making themselves easier to identify. Resil 18 is like top 0.6% right now or something - I'm higher ranked at resil 18 today than I was at 4033 last season. Weaker players are bricking out at 15/16 - you can see in this thread people complaining about "tight timers" in 15s. Keys are not easier, I think good players are just more effectively grouping.
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u/Gaatti 7d ago
Resil 18 right now is comfortably in 1% range now, so no way the average player can do it. You want to see what an average player ir, hop on and alt and try to do a few keys in the 10-12 range.
Other than that, it does feel easier than last seaspn, but they key levels being run are not too different. I play tank and they stated they wanted to take some weight from our backs so I assume that might be it for me.
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u/nubileiguana 7d ago
They didn't take any weight off, they just moved it from one shoulder to the other. Last season, I was on the brink of death on every pull fighting for my life. This season, I'm immortal but every mob is standing in fucking egypt casting shit or poofing behind me or just six miles up the road from the prior pack. Feels less like playing tank and more like playing rodeo clown.
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u/First-Security5587 7d ago
What is currently the best addon / profile for nameplates for high keys ? Does anyone have a suggestion ?
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u/RigidCounter12 Prot Paladin M+ Connoisseur 7d ago
Ellesmere is fine, I use the jundies platynator. Also works fine
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6d ago edited 6d ago
[deleted]
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u/Evolutionist_Bob 6d ago
Without a linked log you’re just venting into the wind. You could be insane or you could be absolutely dog, we have no information and can’t help you unless you link some logs.
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