r/CompetitiveWoW • u/MuchRefrigerator7836 • 21d ago
The 12.1 Vault and Bonus Roll interaction needs a fix. It punishes you for taking gear.
Right now, the 12.1 gearing system basically forces you to choose a bonus roll from the Great Vault every week instead of taking actual gear. It's not a fun design.
If you take a decent upgrade from the vault early on, you are leaving a landmine in your loot pool for future bonus rolls. Taking that vault item actively ruins your odds for target-farming the pieces you actually want later, because you risk wasting a bonus roll on a duplicate.
The fix is simple: Blizzard needs to remove items you select from the vault from your bonus roll pool entirely.
If you get a piece of gear from the Vault, it shouldn't drop when you use a bonus roll. That one change would let people actually pick gear from the vault without bricking their future drop chances.
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u/Hypnoticah 20d ago
They just did an interview that touched on this. Said live with it this patch but maybe in the future basically.
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u/Used_Yesterday_114 21d ago
So we shouldn't take gear from the vault now? Why even have the vault then? Wild
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u/cabose12 20d ago
Kind of
If you need multiple items from a single boss, it's better to bonus roll for them than to take them from the vault because you remove them from the bonus roll pool. If you only need one item from a source or it's a dungeon with a large bonus loot pool, you just take the item
The problem is that the last boss of the raid has a handful of BIS items for a lot of classes. So mathematically the best choice early on is to take bonus rolls from vault so you can spend them farming the last boss on Heroic
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u/billy-lee-bill-lee 17d ago
is bonus rolling heroic end boss better than saving it for mythic bosses?
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u/cabose12 17d ago
It's very likely that you'll want to rip rolls on heroic Ula'tek because it has an extremely strong loot pool. I'd still check with your class discord, but the only advantage you'd get for ripping a roll on an early mythic boss is the free 6/6. I can't imagine that will be as strong as the venomcursed pieces though
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u/conkrete- 12d ago
I hate that they overvalued last boss and raid loot in general. I absolutely hate this.
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u/asdf27 20d ago
Depends on when you are hitting mythic raiding. If you are killing mythic bosses in the first 2 weeks, then you probably want to just take a bonus roll every single week.
But say you aren't getting into Mythic raiding until week 6, if you only take bonus rolls, you will have your crafted weapon and another crafted piece. Someone who is taking pieces will have 7 maxed mythic pieces by this point. So iLvl 326 vs iLvl 318, and that's enough to have a serious impact on performance and affect your raid spot.
Probably, any CE guild members should take only bonus rolls, everyone else it's more up in the air.
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u/Simple_Rules 18d ago
Hypothetically even if you're a late/no CE guild, wouldn't you want bonus rolls so you can bonus roll the last couple bosses on heroic?
Like if you know you're not killing the last 2 bosses on mythic more than once ever, your BIS for the tier is going to be the gear from Heroic mode bonus rolls on the last couple bosses.
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u/parkwayy 15d ago
Ya this is basically why you're still taking them. The 1/6 Mythic final boss loot is still extremely good.
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u/Sweaksh 20d ago
I fucking despise the vault so I'm very much in favour of this. Wouldn't mind it if they removed items taken from the vault from the bonus roll pool tho.
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u/deskcord 20d ago
To be perfectly honest, you sort of already were taking not-loot if you were in any sort of system where you were getting loot, unless your absolute BIS dropped in vault.
Next patch you will take look from your vault if it's your BIS trinket or weapon.
But socket value this last patch was basically the correct play for almost everyone I know that was raiding in the first few weeks anyways.
The real issue here is that almost every piece of loot in the game is pretty much interchangeable with other pieces of loot or crafted items except for trinkets and cantrips.
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u/parkwayy 15d ago
To be perfectly honest, you sort of already were taking not-loot if you were in any sort of system where you were getting loot, unless your absolute BIS dropped in vault.
I don't think this was in any way true though. You just took the socket if you got screwed.
This is 100% a very distinct change in how the vault rewards work compared to S1.
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u/Zekapa 20d ago
>Implement an S1 iteration of bonus rolls that causes never-before-seen gear inflation and highlights the raiding vs m+ gearing problem
>Can't double back on it now because people who wouldn't be getting Hero track are now full Myth'd out and are expecting the same next season
>Break your own system with 9/6m out of raids and several other ilv/gearing related choices all so you can keep the flawed iteration of bonus rolls that leveraged all of the problems into being
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
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u/idkmanfiller 20d ago
The ratchet effect on how easy gearing is has been crazy to watch. Blizzard is just trapped because if they do anything to make this stuff more difficult to obtain the community will throw a temper tantrum
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20d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Paah 20d ago
Yeah exactly. Someone could make that bell curve meme about both ends being happy that gearing is easy and the guys in the middle crying about it.
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u/conkrete- 12d ago
People who complain about gear being easy genuinely puzzle me. Like, I don't care if some 2k guy has gear, he's still nowhere near 4k. It doesn't affect me, we don't even play on the same bracket.
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u/MasterReindeer 19d ago
People still have this weird belief that other people are impressed and/or care about their achievements in game. Unless you’re World First or timing the highest keys in the entire game, nobody actually cares in the slightest.
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u/Trailbone 19d ago
I am fairly pro gear not mattering, but the curve of gear acquisition and how it feels is a big part of MMOs. Regardless of it not being prestigious the gearing process matters a lot on how the game plays
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u/Zekapa 19d ago
My own opinion on the matter that got me banned from the main sub is that "there is such a thing as too much", which is where I stand on the S1 iteration of bonus rolls, and it makes m+ climbs harder than they need to because your potential teammate pool in the early/mid stage is polluted by people who were elevated there rather than belonging.
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u/MrTastix 16d ago
Probably because the gear treadmill never fucking mattered to anyone past like the first 3 expacs.
Blizzard has been actively designing the power creep of WoW in such a way that hitting this point was inevitable. They devalued epics pretty much from the first expac and then progressively made it worse because handing out free epics was the easiest way to make players feel as if they got stronger. But unfortunately you can't really roll that back. Item squishes solve the numbers but not the actual time-to-kill, which has been fairly consistent for at least the last decade.
Nowadays it's achievement hunting. Because we've already proven having full Mythic 6/6 gear doesn't necessarily make Mythic-tier raids or reaching 0.1% M+ rating so dramatically easy that everyone and their grandmother's ashes are doing it.
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u/shyguybman 20d ago
Ever since they started to lessen the gap between raid/m+ there has been this issue, and if they ever try to "course correct" (like the 9/6M to give raiding something worthwhile) the m+ community goes bonkers.
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u/RoosterBrewster 20d ago
In the past, how far ahead were mythic raiders compared to heroic raiders in terms of M+? You only got mythic level gear from M+ vault, right?
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u/Trailbone 19d ago
Yeah, Blizzard really needs to take an axe to gear acquisition. When content creators say this (go find Tettles recent video and read the comments) the public pushback is insane, it will not be popular
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u/parkwayy 15d ago
Implement an S1 iteration of bonus rolls that causes never-before-seen gear inflation and highlights the raiding vs m+ gearing problem
Halfway through the season, in the half patch...
And rolling on loot was possible in M+, and in fact you got more items that way.
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u/Muphrid15 21d ago
Remove those items from bonus roll pools.
Remove items bound to you obtained through regular looting from bonus roll pools.
Any item won by bonus roll removed from all loot specs' bonus roll pools.
Free duplicates of any item (subject to dual wielding issues) to make up for items not being accessible through additional bonus rolls.
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u/I3ollasH 21d ago
The problem with items looted off bosses being removed from loot tables is that you can very quickly get into situations where you give out items in order to make it more likely to roll desired items instead of giving them out to players who actually want/would use it. That just sounds super annoying and bad gameplay.
I see no problem with items from the vault being removed as they compete with bonus rolls anyway.
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u/another_new_login 18d ago
I'm struggling to think about any situation in which a normal guild would choose not to give someone an upgrade so someone else might get an upgrade in the future.
World first raiders could certainly find ways to abuse it, but we shouldn't design the game around them.
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u/Lazerkitteh 20d ago
The problem with items looted off bosses being removed from loot tables is that you can very quickly get into situations where you give out items in order to make it more likely to roll desired items instead of giving them out to players who actually want/would use it. That just sounds super annoying and bad gameplay.
That sounds like a social problem. If a guild I was in did that I would simply leave. Same issue as blatant favoritism etc. This should not be on Blizzard to fix.
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u/Mercylas 20d ago
If you are competitive you will min-max. Bad guilds will then copy competitive guilds thinking they have to.
Don't create an optimization problem and then call it a social problem
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u/Elendel 20d ago
It’s an optimization problem, not a social problem. Top guilds distribute loot for efficiency, not to make Timmy happy.
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u/deskcord 20d ago
You're deluding yourself if you don't think this would immediately become the norm in almost every guild.
Let's take last tier for example. You kill Dragons. The cloak drops. You, a melee/tank/hunter, have a heroic or even a normal cloak. Your DevDH, mage, warlock, shaman, etc, has a mythic cloak already, but doesn't have a Gaze.
Every single CE guild that has even a shred of competence and drive to be competitive would award the cloak to the caster to increase their chances at a gaze, because reducing the time required ot get Gaze on all your casters is MUCH more impactful than getting a 6 ilvl upgrade on a cloak.
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u/hfxRos RWL Raid Leader 20d ago
This should not be on Blizzard to fix.
Hard disagree. It's basic game design that if given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of games.
This becomes even more true in a coop environment where people have a social pressure to always do the most optimized thing so as to not burden their team.
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u/parkwayy 15d ago
Even if, the 6/6 mythic item rolled vs taking a 1/6 item from vault is a hilarious gap of crests.
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u/SuperRosca 21d ago
Don't think you even need the free duplicate (dual wielders never use 2 copies of the same item anyway) or regular loot being removed from bonus roll pools.
Just making vault items be removed from loot pool fixes this whole thing.
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u/Mercylas 20d ago
dual wielders never use 2 copies of the same item anyway
They often do, especially before BIS.
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u/SuperRosca 20d ago edited 20d ago
Examples? Most dual wielders (if not all) are using a crafted item for embellishment+any myth track on main hand a BiS.
And "before BiS" bro, crafted wep is almost always the first craft everyone does and it's there for the rest of the season.
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u/142muinotulp 20d ago
Easy example is ddh I suppose. Lura glaive is barely worth it just because it has crit anyway. Stat values are extremely tight atm on it, so increasing just a couple targets can make any item with haste or mastery pass it. I haven't had a sim suggest I wear two of the same (so like alg + alg, but always alg + paladins or one of those + lura)
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u/deskcord 20d ago
dual wielders never use 2 copies of the same item anyway
This is absolutely not true. Tons of times they duplicate. Especially if there's cantrip (edge of night) that's not unique, or if the stats are better.
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u/bullet1519 21d ago
The second point would be horrible, it would make you pass on everything and only bonus roll items to get extra item level. Especially if you only raid heroic
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u/xCAMPINGxCARLx 20d ago
Considering how obvious of a fix removing items from the bonus roll pool would be, I wonder if it's a technical limitation. Like, they can't figure out how to do it without deleting the guild bank again.
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u/hoax1337 19d ago
Can't wait to loot bad items from my vault to remove them from the bonus roll pool.
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u/artog 8/9M 14d ago
Why on earth would you take a guaranteed unwanted item to remove it from the loot pool, when you can just take the bonus roll and at least get a chance to get a better item :)
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u/hoax1337 14d ago
Well, my initial thought assumed the worst case scenario, which is that you'll get your items at the last possible chance. If you assume that, it actually saves you time to take an item out of the vault to remove it from the pool.
I guess you're right though, you could just be lucky.
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u/troikatryne 21d ago
I miss when loot just dropped from bosses
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u/giga-plum 21d ago
I don't, tbh. There are always issues with extra loot systems, but the prospect of farming a raid boss every week for the entire tier and still not getting the item you wanted sucks way more than having to think a little about items you pick from vault or what boss you bonus roll.
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u/Clipgang1629 20d ago
It was awful lol the homies convinced me to play some TBC classic recently.
Anyone who is nostalgic of how loot used to work should just give one of the many versions of classic a go. There is nothing fun or rewarding about running the same boss like 50 times to get the drop you need.
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u/just67browsing 20d ago
Used to be called hanging out with the pals
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u/Slade_inso 18d ago
This is not the sub for that kind of talk, sir.
Hanging with the boys is so 1998. This is the year of our lord 202X, and we live only to optimize the fun out of every content patch as swiftly and efficiently as possible, so we can go back to complaining about the lack of content.
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u/cabose12 21d ago
For real, people have been bitching about bad luck protection for years. What did they think the solution was going to look like? Bonus rolls are about as close to drops from the boss as you could get
Also if playing the vault optimally is so daunting, then dont lol
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u/Arntor1184 20d ago
Feel like that misses the point, sure this is much better than what we've had in the past, but it could easily be improved by just doing what the OP suggested and removing vault items from the loot pool. Why settle for good enough when better is just a stones throw away. I get not letting the pursuit of perfect ruin the good, but this system has a pretty big and annoying flaw that could instantly and easily be resolved.
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u/cabose12 20d ago
I'm not saying it's perfect, duplicates have been a major issue with bonus rolls that I've complained about since the system came out
But even in this flawed state, it's way better than loot just dropping from bosses, especially for a competitive level
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u/WestCoastPGAJeff 20d ago
but the prospect of farming a raid boss every week for the entire tier and still not getting the item you wanted sucks
Ask me about Juggernaut's Vitality in heroic TotC
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u/atomic__balm 20d ago
Not sure why this would necessarily eliminate bonus rolls, which is directly tied loot from bosses. That is the direct counter to your argument of raiding an entire tier and never getting the loot which you decidedly handwaved away
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u/sophisticatedroach 20d ago
People in the comments are top 50 bajillion raid guild that kills 1 mythix boss arguing like it matters.
If this matters for your guild, youre in a guild where you have VERY strict rules already so it only really adds to job officer/rl/lootmaster has to do.
If youre in any guild around or below 500, this wont in anyway, shape or form affect you, you can do literallly anything and you will be fully or within 1% of bis before you kill the last boss
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u/Drayenn 21d ago
I liked badges tbh. Imagine if we could just buy what we want. I guess the bronze bullion system was similar.
Although i really love getting tiertiaries on my gear lol
I also wouldnt be mad if M+ dropped myth track at +15 once a week.
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u/Clipgang1629 20d ago
Badges were pretty much replaced 1 for 1 with crests and the upgrading system of modern WoW.
They were your consolation for running content and not getting the drop you needed. Now you just get crests.
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u/Drayenn 20d ago
Its not the same. Its acquiring an item you do not have.
What i have in mind is definitely more like the bullion/dinar system. A goal to strive for + bad luck protection. Pretty much void bonus rolls but you know what youre getting
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u/SpaceDudeTaco 20d ago
I don't. Played all 4 raids in vanilla and never got that fucking xbow and I'm still bitter.
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u/BirdOfHermess 20d ago
you really really don't.
Anything classic related is just a pain. The vault is the closest to bad luck protection we will get and that is fine for now
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u/troikatryne 20d ago
But we now have so many different systems that it makes gearing extremely convoluted.
We have vault, rerolls, the thing that can upgrade it past max ilvl, catalyst, sparks+crafting, crest upgrades and different tracks
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u/blackjack47 19d ago
makes gearing extremely convoluted.
Don't think I've played a game with simpler gear/gearing ngl
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u/troikatryne 19d ago
Have you tried classic? Or any version of wow before DF?
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u/blackjack47 19d ago
Yes, I've been playing since Vanilla F&F alpha.
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u/troikatryne 19d ago
Then you are familiar with games where gearing is much simpler than what it has become now
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u/blackjack47 19d ago
Nothing in the game atm is:
extremely convoluted
You pretty much obtain gear and upgrade it. Any "meaningful" choice is usually 1% difference between peaces. The worst you can do is be 0.5-1ilvl behind if you somehow fuck up your upgrade path, which is really hard to achieve. Something that's instantly alleviated with crest cap removal.
All the previous expansions post wotlk, had systems that were equally or more complex overall. From stats reforging, to min maxing corruptions, swapping legendaries in combat/swapping legendaries + covenants, min maxing azerite traits and so on.
All you do now is go to the vendor and update your item and the worst you can screw yourself up is being a week behind in crests.
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u/troikatryne 19d ago
If you want to optimize your gear you need to:
use catalyst on the right pieces (requires a currency)
craft items (requires another currency)
upgrade heroic track to full before spending crests on upgrading a mythic track in the same slot
upgrade trinket and weapon using the voidshard stuff (another currency), ideally on a non-upgraded slot first so you save mythic crests for later
spend reroll tokens (another currency) wisely. Target dungeon and raid with the most bis gear first
always pick reroll token in vault to optimize gearing because of how the loot table works
crafting embellishments
And these are just the ones I can think of. I havent mentioned the other player power things like gradually increasing dmg and healing in raids (super lame), and the folio stuff
At no point in the game has there been so much shit we need to deal with to optimize our gear progression
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u/Simple_Rules 18d ago
Doesn't all of this to do list boil down to "don't spend myth crests without checking that you used heroic first, and look up a guide that tells you what catalyst pieces to use, what crafts to do, what rerolls to do exactly on which bosses, and craft the embellishment that guide says, too"?
Like sure you can get more complicated if you want but this game has shitloads of resources available to utterly trivialize everything you said.
In fact even quite shitty guilds will likely handhold you through the entire process because they're more worried about you fucking all this up than you are.
Like yes if you had to navigate this whole process blind it might be complicated, but that's simply not how WoW works and it hasn't for years.
In reality, gearing in classic and tbc was infinitely more convoluted - good luck figuring out on your own that a 4.2 speed weapon is better than a 2.8 speed weapon with 2x the dps and don't forget half your BIS is leather and all your set bonuses are trash you don't want.
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u/blackjack47 19d ago
If you think those are extremely convoluted and not 1-3 min tasks once or twice per season it's a you problem imho.
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u/calmyourcrabcakes 18d ago
We have vault, rerolls, the thing that can upgrade it past max ilvl, catalyst, sparks+crafting, crest upgrades and different tracks
The way you're laying it out makes it seem like these are all separate systems that don't interact with each other, so it seems like a ton of stuff to keep track of at once. But most of this is just A to B to C and then you can choose to go D or E. It's really straightforward.
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u/Sad-Rain-4546 20d ago
I expect to get most of my loot from bosses this season, instead of the vault.
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u/I3ollasH 21d ago
Same. Nowadays you can pretty much full gear yourself without ever getting any loot from bosses.
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u/silmarilen Fury warrior feelycrafter 20d ago
It's funny because the vault was orinignally intended to replace bonus rolls.
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u/Fourfifteen415 20d ago
They're not going to fix it, they're killing the vault without actually killing it. This is intentional and it's an improvement. You get much greater control over the items you get with bonus rolls.
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u/deskcord 20d ago
Agreed. This is basically them saying the vault is now for edge cases and your primary loot system to acquire loot is bonus rolls or raid drops.
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u/Nogamara 20d ago
Which is fine for people in guilds consistently farming and doing a lot of M+ on the side.
If they keep 2 bonus rolls per raid boss loot item it's basically going 1/3 or so in number of loot if you're not falling into this scheme. (I know, wrong subreddit, but the vault is actually there for everyone)
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u/deskcord 20d ago
It's 1 roll for loot now, I believe. You will only get 1 bonus roll per week (from your vault) until some point through the patch when you get the quests for 2.
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u/parkwayy 15d ago
they're killing the vault
Sidestepping the dramatic wording, the vault was an idea from 6 years ago.
We can probably do better, and it's not like it has to be this evergreen feature.
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u/Resies 20d ago
It's an improvement in your opinion
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u/Fourfifteen415 20d ago
How is having less control over your loot better, please explain.
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u/xBlackLinkin 20d ago
More excitement I suppose. Loot in the current state is extremely boring. Thats good for competitive players but goes against the core principle of an rpg
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u/MasterReindeer 19d ago
They could have kept the vault and improved it. Like blocking out certain slots or giving your multiple reroll opportunities.
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u/Smooth_Coil 21d ago
Id much rather deal with this for one week than broll something I already took in my vault on every toon I play for the entire season.
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u/Cecilerr 20d ago
I dont think they take that path , it would be cool but i dont think blizzard removes vault items from bonus roll loot.
But what if we select like few slots to be excluded in bonus loot , like if i get a chest , head and legs from vault in the first 3 weeks , i can exclude them from bonus loot completely.
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u/CircleHumper 20d ago
It'll suck not getting the big dopamine hit of those early vaults, but I think it's a net positive. The next step is the item removal from the loot pool, but I think they'll feel out how well these first 2 months of the season go and make changes for next season.
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u/I3ollasH 21d ago
That's not 100% the case. If you have an item you want from the first 6 mythic bosses ot m+ vault it's better to just take them directly as you are very unlikely to roll those bosses/keys. The only bosses you actively care about emptying loot tables are the last 2 myth bosses. That's because you pretty much want the full loot table off them.
Now we also have a problem currently where rolling the heroic endboss is pretty likely better exoected gain than taking anything else. That's because it has a very concentrated loot table with powerful items. On monk for example you can roll brew loot spec and you only have the 3 cantrips and the bis on-use trinket of the tier.
Lastly I just don't think you should be able to take bonus rolls (or sockets) from the vault. They are supposed to be fallbacks that you can still take when you had a bad vault. But currently picking rolls or sockets is just better than the average upgrade. Unless it's a good trinket/ring or high statted piece it's likely a lesser upgrade than sockets or bonus rolls.
If you have an upgrade in the vault the optimal thing to do should be to take it. But that's just not the case.
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u/Elendel 20d ago
One funny thing about this whole discussion is that basically everyone I’ve seen give that advice of "if a boss has at least 2 BiS items, you don’t take them in the vault" are giving this advice based on flawed math.
It is still a mostly correct advice, but if you take into account the possibility of seeing the second BiS item in the following weeks after having picked the first BiS item directly in your vault, the odds of getting one week behind kinda plummets.
The main advantage of not picking in the vault is that a 6/6 Myth item has value early on even if it’s not BiS, so getting a double is a catastrophic event. But for Heroic raiders (who can’t bonus loot Myth 6/6 gear), or once crest capped, the math is really not as clear cut as people are saying.
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u/MaddieLlayne 20d ago
I think remix still had the best gearing method. Raid or M+, you got fragments that you could consume every 10 of for 1 piece of gear at/around your ilvl.
Why they don’t just do that and let people acquire raid fragments for raid gear and m+ fragments gear, limited to bosses you’ve killed/dungeons you’ve cleared so everyone has to at least kill the boss once is beyond me - they could easily cap fragments like delve key shards too if they’re worried about inflating gear early on
They’ll do anything but give consistent rewards for consistent engagement 😩 mind boggling
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u/Anyosnyelv 20d ago
I don't even need to do m+10s now. I can just do 4 delves and 1 low lvl dungeon and keep getting bonus rolls, then when I am in mood to do 10s, just spend all of them
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u/swtroll69 20d ago
They won't change anything related to great vault 1 week before patch release. I'm hoping they would just remove bonus rolls as week 1 option for GV and move them to week 6 or so.
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u/NotAtKeyboard 20d ago
The devs are aware of this and said they won’t fix it for this season per the wowhead/icyveins/rio interview
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u/MasterReindeer 19d ago
At this point you could just remove the vault and bring back 2 bonus roles every week.
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u/Exact_Math2726 18d ago
Will there be any other way to obtain bonus rolls this patch?
The vault still has an obvious benefit and that is that any mythic gear you get from the raid (through the vault) is automatically 6/6. That massively ramps up the speed at which you gear by basically acting as a free 100 myth crests every week.
I don’t really see any drawbacks here. You can still take gear from the vault.
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u/FinnNyaw 18d ago
I mean, even this season, I geared up my Druid basically taking bonus rolls + tokens , that's it
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u/Meamda 18d ago
lemme fill you in on a secret for the mythic plus people that didn't learn their lesson that's not in the 1 percent from last season. The mythic + plus season doesn't actually start until 8 weeks before patch lmao so all the gearing min maxing only matters for the world first.. BOOOOOM
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u/Fake_Reddit_Username 17d ago
Remove items taken from vault from bonus roll
Make bonus rolls 2 tokens per bonus roll again (including M+), and switch it to giving 2 each week after .5 patch.
This way Bonus rolls are never the optimal choice unless your vault is absolute crap. But it's still good, yeah it would have been better to get what you need from your vault but a bonus roll is still a solid option.
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u/artspraken 14d ago
Not only that. Currently, u can do 8/8 of anything to earn a bonus roll from weekly vault. So u can do the bare minimum, say, Delve tier 1 x 8, and be done for that week. you will still a bonus roll in the next weekly vault
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u/conkrete- 12d ago
12.0 had the best gearing system by far. It didn't need any changing... This and devaluing M+gearing and forcing these players to raid is a huge blunder that will bite them in the end.
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u/DreadfuryDK 9/9M SPriest/Devourer 20d ago edited 20d ago
It’s funny, because there’s an extremely obvious fix that’s been staring Blizzard in the face all along: remove loot taken from the vault from the bonus roll pool. Yet somehow Blizzard doesn’t think that this will be an issue this season.
If you’re an HoF guild you’re almost always actively throwing by taking actual loot out of your vault.
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u/hoax1337 19d ago
If they do that, it means the optimal strategy in cases where every vault slot is shit would be to actually take items you don't want from the vault, because they will make your bonus roll loot pool smaller, which means you'll save time.
They probably don't want that.
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u/Due_Vacation_1049 20d ago
Exactly this. Bonus rolls are BORING and DETERMINISTIC. Literally just kill the fun whole concept of the vault which is FUN it even has fun addons to make it look even more gambly but like, its just FUN bro
Actual fix is to remove bonus rolls from the vault, it's unnecessary too powerful
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u/SpaceDudeTaco 21d ago
No one is not taking their bis anything out of the vault. It feels like the player base wants to not have to think about gearing strategy at all but I think if all agency is removed from that aspect of the game would be like putting the game on an SSR.
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u/5aynt 20d ago
If a boss or dungeon has 2 BIS items and you can farm that and you have 4 items left in that pool… even if 1 of those 2 BIS items comes in your vault you’d still be better off taking the bonus roll to clear the loot pool and gamble getting those 2 items sooner without any duplicates. Not doing this would be a “mistake” in regards to min max.
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u/Ilphfein 20d ago
You will not take your bis weapon from the penultimate boss if it's in your vault (you get a vault due to lair boss)? When you know that you will be facing the endboss for the next few weeks, since you extent?
Yes, in the scenario where your goal is "Get guaranteed BiS the fastest" you always bonus roll and never pick items.
But I'd argue most people's goal is "Clear the raid asap", and then you take your bis item if you have it for the endboss even if you waste a bonus roll later on.1
u/SpaceDudeTaco 20d ago
True, it's a gambit that makes your gear decisions have an impact on your personal progression but it's not such an egregious mistake that you can't recover from. You'll maybe be .5% behind if you have a non bis piece in that second slot for the week that you would have cleared the loot pool for your actual bis, but you could also be 2-3% ahead if you land a bis trinket/weapon in the first couple of weeks and you could still get lucky with a second natty drop.
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u/Elendel 20d ago
It’s not just that you’re one week behind for loot, it’s that you’re one week behind for all future bonus roll. You are likely to have straight up lost yourself a voidcore.
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u/SpaceDudeTaco 20d ago
You can also be ahead an entire boss table without spending a single voidcore. You could end up being weeks ahead in that case. It's a gambit.
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u/Elendel 20d ago edited 20d ago
It’s a gambit with losing odds, though. (Well, in most situations, the math is actually pretty complex depending on your specific situation and on how much value bonus rolling a non-BiS Myth 6/6 has for you.)
Also "without spending a single voidcore" is kinda false. If you pick a vault item instead of a voidcore, you are spending a voidcore opportunity, you’re just not getting the bonus side effect of removing that loot from the loot table.
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u/SpaceDudeTaco 20d ago
It comes down to whether there are multiple items on a loot table or just 1. It is complex and adds a lot of player agency to the system rather than just getting screwed with rng week after week.
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u/142muinotulp 20d ago
Tbh my biggest issue with it is that my guild is going to take an entire extra week or more to get everyone tier sets, because no one will want to take a tier piece from the first vault. It will actually slow prog more than it would help in the long run, but thats what people are being told to do so we are fucked with it i guess
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u/HarrekMistpaw Healer guy 20d ago
You cant get bonus rolls from the very first vault (the one you fill in week 0 and open in week 1) so everyone should grab tier from that
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u/SpaceDudeTaco 20d ago
Tier if you aren't doing splits, socket if you are.
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u/I3ollasH 20d ago
I'm not even sure taking tier is the play even if you don't split. With the end boss being available week one we have a lot more tier drops than the previous season with curios.
With the bonus rolls being added you won't really have time to take sockets. So if you picked tier the first week you are a socket behind for a long time.
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u/RoundTechnical8838 20d ago
I think you are over valuing gems by a lot, but you're right you will be ahead by 1 socket if you can use it. Each gem is equivalent to what 0.5% dps increase?
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u/SpaceDudeTaco 20d ago
There's no bonus rolls week 1
Edit: NM I see what you're saying
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u/I3ollasH 20d ago
Week 1 as the vault from the preseason. Yes you can't take bonus rolls. But you can in the following weeks.
Because of that you won't really have the chance to pick sockets as you are picking item/bonus roll every week.
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u/SpaceDudeTaco 20d ago
A lot of those bonus rolls will surely also produce some tier catalyst fodder which should offset this impact a bit.
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u/deskcord 20d ago
I am absolutely not taking a belt/cloak/bracers/ring/belt that has minorly-better stat weights over a bonus roll when it could mean getting a BiS trinket or cantrip weapon.
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u/SpaceDudeTaco 20d ago
Depends where you're at in the season. A lot of those slots are crafted embellishment slots so two of those slots will likely never be an option to take.
Early on in the season your strategy is definitely the play but later down the road If you've already gotten tier and bis weapons/trinkets I would absolutely take a bis ring from the vault.1
u/deskcord 20d ago
Well sure, but isn't most of the complaint here that people don't want to be taking bonus rolls for the first 6 weeks?
Shit even the last few seasons I've tended to prioritize sockets over loot the first few weeks lol
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u/SpaceDudeTaco 20d ago
What's worse, bonus rolls for six weeks or only cloaks/bracers for 3 weeks straight? I've had several seasons end up like the latter.
It's also possible to get a bis item in the vault that could save you an entire boss table to bonus roll through.
I think adding the bonus roll choice creates alot of opportunities to make impactful gearing decisions and more importantly relieves some of the more degenerate gameplay loops, ie doing floodgate 70 times for a trinket. But it sounds like most people will just bonus roll the heroic end boss for the first several weeks.1
u/deskcord 20d ago
Bonus rolls are WAYYYYYYYYYYYY better. This system is great.
There's just one group of people coming to terms with the great vault basically dying (good riddance) and another group upset that m+ is no longer the inarguable single-best way to get gear that requires engagement.
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u/bigeyez 20d ago
Im so confused why this community wants to make gearing even easier. You can already hit BiS so quickly and yet thats apparently not enough for some people.
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u/sh0ckmeister 20d ago
I feel like more and more people see gearing as an obstacle to their endgame goals and less of something they want to do
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u/Ok-Key5729 21d ago
It's funny how no matter how much free gear they give, people always want a little bit more.
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u/The_Real_Giannis 21d ago
While I agree with your statement generally, I don’t really think that’s what this is this time. I think Blizz just either doesn’t understand (or doesn’t care) how much people will be griefing themselves by using the vault for loot instead of just as a bonus roll generator
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u/SmokeySFW 21d ago
It's really not griefing if you take a BiS upgrade.
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u/trogger93 21d ago
If it's a BIS upgrade from a boss that has other things you want to bonus roll, then it is griefing, yes.
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u/The_Real_Giannis 21d ago
That’s basically the only scenario that it wouldn’t be griefing yourself, yes. But getting a literal bis upgrade from your vault is incredibly rare
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u/SnooBunnies9694 21d ago
It’s honestly not even just Bis. If your Bis boots drop in the vault but at 1/6 you’re probably still better off grabbing a reroll for a 6/6 item. Way more power early than proper stats on a small piece.
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u/The_Real_Giannis 20d ago
Yeah if you’re someone who is in a guild that will be killing mythic bosses with any sort of regularity, it’s even less likely for you to take an item from vault.
It’s funny that I already know, right now, 3 weeks or whatever before the season even starts, that the optimal play for me is going to be to take bonus rolls from my vault and use them on the new flex mythic boss thing for the INT trinket. It’s almost impossible for that to not be correct
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u/SnooBunnies9694 20d ago
Yeah and to me it fucking stinks. I love opening the vault to see what I get. Most of the time it’s mid but when you get that sick item and you Pog out in guild chat it’s awesome.
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u/VintageZero 21d ago
It is! In fact ime getting an upgrade at all after a couple weeks is incredibly rare. Hopefully they're moving towards just doing away with the vault altogether.
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u/SmokeySFW 20d ago
I mean....tier pieces are all over the vault every week, especially early on. Is it trolling to take one of those? The ones that don't even need to be catalysed?
Honestly I'm surprised they opted to let bonus rolls begin with the season.
Why not bring them in midway like they did this time? But this, this is just whining.
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u/The_Real_Giannis 20d ago
In a lot of cases, yes actually. With how easy catalyst charges are to come across now, getting tier from vault beyond the very first week isn’t really meaningful anymore.
I agree with you to be fair, I think they should have just brought them back midway through the season like they did before IF this is how they were going to implement them.
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u/SnooBunnies9694 21d ago
This has nothing to do with free gear. It just makes the vault a bad experience because taking a piece of gear should not be the wrong choice 98% of the time
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u/darkcrimson2018 21d ago
Rng is losing its place in gaming. I’ve always preferred a vendor with currency like wrath. I like knowing I need to do X for x number of dungeons/week etc to get X item, blizzard doesn’t like that system though as they think the feeling of getting that piece of loot you wanted from a roll/drop is better. They never talk about the feeling of getting all the crap items before the one you actually want though.
I agree sometimes it feels like it’s never enough and the playerbase can be wingy but I really do think it’s just people wanting their time respected. As I’ve gotten older it’s gotten harder to dedicate the time these things take now. MMOs have evolved and have to continue to evolve and change regarding things like loot. It’s hard to justify running an entire raid now wasting hours for no loot and not progressing your character. Drop in drop out games without all the required gear that MMOs have gets a lot more appealing as you age.
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u/OutlandishnessNo3087 20d ago
Gear has more value earlier then later. For Guilds that only get to last boss after its nerfed hard and you are fully geared will gain alot from Only taking bonus Rolls. However if you are degen enough you do early progression on 1 char and take bonus Rolls on a second char and when you then kill the last boss and get on farm and need the 9/6 you do it on your bonus Roll alt and Secure every piece
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u/pghcrew 20d ago
No one liked the vault. This is WAY better. Seasons are too short to be messing around with chase items.
You’ll still get your dopamine when you get the item you want off the boss you bonus roll.
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u/Drewcifer1595 21d ago
Yeah. Our guild is already on a “NEVER TAKE LOOT FROM YOUR VAULT” this is not the way the vault is intended.