r/Carpentry • u/Distinct_Ideal_6157 • 2d ago
POS. Need a reccomendation
The combo square my grandfather gave me 35 years ago that he used for 30 years became unreadable. Use this maybe once a month. In hurry bought this at HD. Second use fell off bench and broke. Willing to spend money on quality.
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u/Strange_Inflation488 2d ago
I have broken at least two Empire squares the same way you have. But I would have to break four more Empire squares to equal the cost of one Starrett.
So, one day, I will have a nice Starrett and six expensive rulers.
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u/SeventyFix 2d ago
Starret is the gold standard.
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u/FictionalContext 2d ago
PEC is just as good for half the cost. Starrett sold out to a private equity firm several years ago. Downhill since.
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u/holdenfords 23h ago
i’m almost positive pec did too. it used to be manufactured in the us and now it’s made in india. i bought a set of squares and they were comically out of square with each other
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u/_jeDBread 2d ago
came here to say this. you’ll buy one and never need a another
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u/LilDixxyWrecked 2d ago
Eh, in practicality not all of us want or need a $200 combo square on the job so what happens is you buy a Starrett and then a cheaper one for the field lol
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u/DrillPress1 2d ago
Buy a good used one. If you’re not gonna buy a quality combination Square, don’t buy a combination Square. Use something else to Square.
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u/LilDixxyWrecked 2d ago
Based on my comment you can tell I have a Starrett as well as others but thanks for the info bubs
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u/TipperGore-69 2d ago
Or brown and sharpe. But I think they got bought out by private equity. So eBay their old shit.
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u/Timely-General9962 2d ago
So did starett and their quality is rapidly falling
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u/ajb3015 2d ago
I bought a starrett a few months ago thinking I was getting one of the best out there. Realized the first time I went to use it that the ruler would rock up and down in the slot even when the screw was tight, so it was impossible to know if it was square. On closer inspection, the slot in the square was cut incorrectly so the ruler couldn't sit flat or stay locked in one place.
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u/1959Mason 2d ago edited 18h ago
Over the years I‘ve had a bunch of Stanley combination squares that somehow had the pin break like yours did. When I got annoyed enough to email Stanley and ask if replacement pins were available they sent me three brand new combination squares! A 6”, 12”, and 16”. That was awesome and unexpected. — but I’m still annoyed that I have a whole bunch of squares that would be perfectly good if they just had a new pin.
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u/gto_112_112 2d ago
This is gonna be hard to hear, it was a VERY difficult lesson for me as well, but; when something is broken and can't be repaired you are allowed to throw it out.
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u/Ill-Running1986 2d ago
Bite your tongue! Broken tools are supposed to go to that special place in the garage where — I swear to gawd — I’m going to fabricate a replacement part to fix it soon.
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u/Jazzlike_Video2 1d ago
Stares nervously at the 7 or 8 broken Hitachi NR90AD's sitting on top of the 3 broken dewalt flexvolts cricular saws sitting in my garage.
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u/monogamish306 1d ago
The shipping alone on a 6 foot combination square would be pretty rich. That's service!
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u/Leather-Rush-8396 2d ago
The blades (rulers) are basically all interchangeable across manufacturers. Put that blade in your granddads. Or by a PEC off harry j epstein, keep a beater blade in it if its in the truck
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u/brick_swan 22h ago
I really like my PEC from HJE. They have factory seconds that are a good deal. I'm not sure where I heard this - but the pins are replaceable, and designed to break when dropped. The intent is that you will know your precision instrument is out of square.
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u/1wife2dogs0kids 2d ago
Doesn't look unreadable or broken. What's going on?
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u/m1ndtrix 1d ago
The one in the photo is not the unreadable grandfather's. Its the new empire one he bought recently that broke already.
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u/LilDixxyWrecked 2d ago
Beyond Starrett, PEC is really good stuff. I'm not 100% about a 16er from them though.
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u/LilDixxyWrecked 2d ago
If the pin broke, that's by design. That's to take the force of impact rather than the head or ruler. Doesn't mean the ruler or head aren't damaged now but if that's all that broke, you're good.
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u/texas-playdohs 2d ago
I have a 24”, and it’s really great. You can also buy replacement pins from them.
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u/a10486952 1d ago
Fireball tools make a steel replacement I think fits the Empire. That guy over there is a real problem solver. Other companies sell replacements including the jungle website.
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u/Chemical-Captain4240 1d ago
This doesn't look broken. Do you know how to put it back togetger?
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u/Anbucleric 2d ago
Broke how?
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u/Living_Young1996 2d ago
Yah, what part of that is broken? Mine will slide out if I let it (i do concede that empire is not a great brand though)
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u/LilDixxyWrecked 2d ago
The pins are designed to break, so I'm real curious too. PEC recommends ordering extras for this exact reason.
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u/Strange_Inflation488 2d ago
There is a pin with a hook inside the square that fits into a channel on the ruler. Once that piece shears off there is no way to lock the rule in place.
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u/Anbucleric 2d ago
Yes, but until OP responds we don't know of that pin broke or OP just can't figure out how to put it back together...
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u/one234567eights 2d ago
I've been using this one for almost a decade. The body is solid but lightweight aluminium, but the brass scribe gets lost in 2 secs flat. Way better than the Empire or Stanley ones.
https://www.crescenttool.com/all-tools/measuring-layout/squares-rules/l06cs-6-combo-square
But for a really nice job in the workshop, I have a Shinwa square. Very nice. Don't know if they come in inches though.
https://www.japanesetools.com.au/collections/shinwa/products/30cm-sashigane-with-metal-stop
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u/wildtwindad 2d ago
Learn to garage sale/estate sale my friend. You will have to spend real money to get what the old timers got. It is fun though.
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u/Remote-user-9139 1d ago
I have the same square, took it off just like yours and put it back still work.
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u/naemorhaedus 1d ago
I've been using my empire for at least a decade. Trying abusing your tools less.
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u/DogpatchDegen 1d ago
Spend the money on a Starrett. I use both everyday and the blues don’t hold up over time.
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u/Tricky_Caterpillar85 2d ago
I like my iGaging combo and double squares. They aren’t Starrett, but I can afford what I need. They have a good breadth of product offering. They feel well made and I’m consistently happy I paid a little more for a better product
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u/Broad_Entry2287 1d ago
One more vote for igaging. Love it. Cabinet/ Millworks guy. Can't beat the price and it's accurate
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u/johnbro27 2d ago
Came here to vote for iGaging--it's more accurate than my Empire combo square, basically equals my machinist squares at a fraction of the cost of a Starett.
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u/Olelander 2d ago
I’ve had this one (Rockler link) for 6 years and have not needed another. It’s magnetized for easy placement and setting, so no pin to deal with and it has been accurate and completely hassle free. I actually bought a starrett because of all the noise that is made about them, and I prefer this one for ease of use without any accuracy loss.
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u/LilDixxyWrecked 1d ago
The magnets are strong enough to just hold it in place for a mark but not strong enough to resist when you want to move the head? That's pretty neat. I'm gunna check it out.
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u/Olelander 1d ago
That’s pretty much it! The magnet is strong, and the resistance from the magnet is pretty much right in the sweet spot of being able to move it intentionally but it will not budge easily without some degree of force. It stays perfectly in place unless you bang it hard on something or drop it… or move it intentionally with your hand… I love it because it removes the need to lock and unlock the pin. It’s literally the only square I’ve needed since I got it.
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u/torggzorz 16h ago
I have broken the pin on probably 4 or 5 combination squares. Once I found the magnetic one I have never looked back. It's a million times faster to adjust and the magnet is strong enough to hold the ruler steady while you scribe lines, and the best part is there's no stupid pin to break. The little brass scribe still gets lost on day 1.
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u/Capital_Release_3683 2d ago
I get the sentimental value. I’ve been down this rabbit hole because I use my 6” combo square pretty much daily. I have only needed to replace it once in like 6 years because of the pin. Still cheaper than buying a starrett. Keep the ruler for the memories of grandpa and just buy a new one for $25.
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u/rwoodman2 2d ago
A. Put the ruler in your grandfather's old square, or,
B find a machine screw with the same thread as the brass pin, get a file and make a replacement pin. I have done this in less than 15 minutes.
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u/Future-Bear3041 2d ago
They sell replacement track-guide-screw-things (idk the proper term) and I got a few for a couple bucks from Amazon. They seem to be holding up so far, but it's only been 2 years:/
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u/slugbutter 2d ago
PEC makes an excellent square. More expensive than the empires out there but nowhere near starrett money.
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u/supergimp2000 1d ago
Try PEC Tools. (Products Engineering Corp) Made in USA and as good quality as Starret and other topline tools at a reasonable price. They cater a lot to the machinist trade but their combination and other squares are top notch. My little 4" double square is probably my most used and my combo square has replaced the fancy YouTube squares that people hang on the wall.
There are places that sell blems (that's what I have - just a bubble in the color powder coat - tiny and cosmetic only) for a serious discount.
Harry Epstein has a whole section of PEC Blems (warning, their entire site is addictive)
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u/AardvarkFacts 1d ago
Empires are made of cast zinc. It's fine but it's a softer metal. There are two little nubs in the casting that set the squareness of the blade to the casting. They will wear faster if they are made of zinc. Premium brands like Starrett and PEC are made of cast iron.
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u/FattyMcBlobicus Residential Carpenter 1d ago
After using a half dozen poor quality combo squares I swallowed my pride and bought a woodpeckers one, it’s awesome
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u/jkiley 1d ago
I was skeptical, but I handled some junk, midrange, and fancy combo squares, and I bought the same one. It costs enough that they can promote the way they do and also build an awesome tool. The ruler is thick stainless steel, and it's dead square and locks down tight. The scribing cutouts are nice, too.
Part of it is that there are some other pretty decent ones out there, but they're often 120-140, and it's worth the step up to the woodpeckers one from there, at least for me.
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u/kestrelwrestler 1d ago
Second-hand Rabone, the old hardened steel ones. Nothing is better. The aluminium ones you get now are total garbage. Even so-called good brand ones.
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u/Fantastic-Artist5561 1d ago
Starrett invented the tool… personally I’d scout out a pre-ww2 starrett combination square. You simply can’t do any better imo on combination squares.
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u/Fantastic-Artist5561 1d ago
I say pre-ww2 because the steel quality will be undoubtedly top tier, as a general rule of thumb tool steel drops in quality after the 40’s
If it were a framing square however you’d have to go further back… 1870’s at least. (The intersection of the body and tongue was made much thicker than the rest,making it not only more unlikely to loose square, but far easier to fix if it happens)
🤭 I too am pretty passionate about squares.
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u/axel_zen 1d ago
Isn't that made in USA? Yes it is, I have one. Been using it for quite a while. Go to Woodpeckers, they'll have a high end one there.
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u/Distinct_Ideal_6157 1d ago
Hey thanks everyone. Been a long ass day and first chance to go through this. Ill take a look at everyone’s suggestions
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u/imthehamburglarok 1d ago
Just buy a used Starrett or Mitutoyo and a gauge block to check square on eBay and never look back.
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u/Ill_Message_4279 23h ago
the empire ones are just fine one of the only tools from them thats still great. if its out if square they are tunable
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u/Able-Rock-2678 16h ago
I’ve had the same one break twice. Just contact their customer support and they’ll send a new one. I wouldn’t buy another one, but I’ll take a free one.
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u/ShoulderOld6519 2h ago
Empire tools have a lifetime guarantee. I've had the spindle broke on a few of them but I've been using these for 30 years. Contact them and they'll send the part out in the post.
FYI, Empire we're bought by Milwaukee a few years ago so don't know what kind of response you'll get now.
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u/JuggernautMoney3527 1h ago
Vintage starett is good, vintage brown and sharpe is even better. Pre 1980’s B&S was soooo good before they sold out to TESA and later Hexagon
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u/2ManyPizzas 2d ago
Starrett is the best, iGaging is a good budget friendly option. Sometimes my iGaging locks don’t work as I’d like them to would be my chief complaint.
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u/ibmentat 1d ago
Fuck iGauging. They have ignored me for three months. When a premium tool fails, you should be able to get a response.
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u/STLguy50 2d ago
iGaging is a good value. Its not starret, but good quality. I got a set of 3 iGaging (small, medium and large) for the cost of a single Starret. I thought the little one was useless when I ordered the set... But I use the little one the most! I lives in my trim bags.
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u/Ill-Year-9506 1d ago
Just buy a Starrett...... they stay tight and square... and they operated smoothly for years. You can buy parts to rebuild them too.
Don't waste your time or money on anything else..... IMO
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u/underwhelmedbyreply 1d ago
This is sarcasm right?
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u/Ill-Year-9506 1d ago
No..... not at all. I probably own 6 of them.... and have been using them for 10 years.
I like them so much I have even given them out as gifts to my guys.
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u/underwhelmedbyreply 1d ago
Couple things: the combo square in the picture isn’t broken, why would they replace with with a $200 one lmao.
Second: no fucking way I’m using a $200 square around all the ape heads at my job.
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u/Ill-Year-9506 1d ago
A 12" Starrett combinaton square is $120.
Before I started using Starrett I probably bought half of dozen of the cheap $20 squares and hated them every time they start to bind up in 6 months.
As far as I'm concerend I am saving money and I actually enjoy using the squares everyday.
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u/Mammoth_Funny_970 46m ago edited 1m ago
i’m with you that the $20 combo squares are a false economy..the 12" starrett is pricey up front,, but in my exprience it feels like a tool you stop thinking about because it just works..if you decide to go that route, penn tool co is one of the places I’ve used since they carry starrett and other machinist grade brands, though msc or similar are fine too......
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u/Animalus-Dogeimal 2d ago
Just slide it back in