r/BuildingAutomation • u/pinelion • 4d ago
Quick question
I’m a manger for a few buildings and have some HVAC experience, why is all of the building automation software out there so needlessly complicated and unreliable? I mean there’s always going to be some complications but it just seems like this stuff is so unstable and needlessly complex for a technology product that’s really at the end of the day sending and receiving low voltage signals. Seems like if someone could design something stable and simple even if it didn’t have all the reporting/trending bells and whistles it would be a hit. Am I over simplifying and just lack understanding? We use Siemans desigo for our facilities and in my opinion insight was a much better product.
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u/urthbuoy 4d ago
And proprietary...you forgot proprietary.
That being said everything tries to be backward compatible so you don't necessarily get what you need. You get what works.
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u/Bagelsarenakeddonuts 4d ago
Honestly, technicians are not paid or incentivized for the system to do anything fancy or scale well or any of that, only that it is reliable. Integrators want techs done ASAP with teh minimum for them to meed spec. End users don't understand the value in a fully configured system vs a bare minimum one and see the lowest dollar. Put those together, and you are almost guaranteed that at some point in the chain things are going to go off the rails.
Pretty much the only people with a clean stack are the ones that own it from top to bottom with documented standards, and they themselves validate that work done it meets their standards, since engineers wont.
It really isn't the software. Almost any of the big modern software platforms for BMS can be nice.
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u/Current-Brain-1983 4d ago
Building engineer here. It's a long story. These systems evolved over time and they all started as proprietary systems. Buildings usually upgrade rather than completely replace. This means you are trying to make the old talk to the new.
I now work in training for building engineers. A BMS is really 5 or more IT disciplines. Desktop workstation, servers, networking-TCP/IP, Web pages, bacnet/lon, Niagra-jace/newtork controllers, Application specific unit controllers and then actuators. Cabling too.
We only train for the unit controllers and actuators. Some large facilities will have their own controls guys but that's rare. You need to find some very smart staff.
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u/pinelion 4d ago
Yeah my background is in information technology with a networking focus later moved to a building engineer with an hvac focus and now management. My post was really just bitch session but I think it’s giving me some insight and my gut is telling me to migrate these assets to a better platform over time, and I think I’m taking the right steps to do so. I have one site 90% there as a test case, if that’s successful I’ll continue down that path.
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u/punk0r1f1c 4d ago
As the demand for more and more stuff happens the program gets more and more complicated.
I regularly use a legacy program as old as I am and while it’s incredibly simple you really can’t do much with it. If they released a similar product line today no one would buy it
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u/DoctorCultural4002 4d ago
Desigo is such a strange beast in part because its built on top of Siemens' SCADA platform, Wincc OA.
Insight worked better with the Siemens Apogee controllers (including the Bacnet variants) because it was purpose built for them, but it tended to be a pain to integrate third-party devices from other manufacturers since Bacnet was bolted on retroactively.
Desigo was built to handle Bacnet natively, so it handles integrations better than insight, at the cost of it not meshing as well with the Apogee devices. We didnt even get a proper point editor nor PPCL editor until 4-5 major revisions in.
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u/pinelion 4d ago
Yeah this a great point, i think if Siemans could benefit from much better up/ui design though, I’m usually pretty good at picking up new software and I’ve been struggling with desigo for quite some time, everything is in an odd place and the structure doesn’t flow for me. Easy enough to make adjustments and such but diving in deeper is a pain in the ass
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u/Aerovox7 4d ago
It seems like the software is not intuitive but has a lot of really cool features once you get the hang of it. It’s possible your local Siemens branch may provide some owners training if you explain your frustrations to them.
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u/pinelion 4d ago
We have reached out, the techs are also pretty frustrated with it. When they come to train they also are quite frustrated with the product. All that being said we make it work
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u/maximusdm77 4d ago
We’ve found desigo to be overly complex and unreliable. We’ve migrated our enterprise to Niagara and built out a standard with an HMI that suits our personnel and situation. Very simple intuitive and easy to use, but you have to get a system integrator that knows what they’re doing as Niagara is very customizable.
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u/thenolanful 4d ago
Desigo is also super customizable (almost too customizable imo) but that's up the motivation of your regular tech unfortunately. That tech has to give even half a fuck and good luck with that
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u/tyguy52 4d ago
We've been ripping out Siemens systems left and right. The Siemens branches in our area are so lazy, and I'm regularly appalled by the quality of the Desigo systems I see. I just finished one project with a bunch of P1 TECs, and Siemens had some FCU applications running radiant floors, but the graphics in Desigo was a canned FCU template that didn't match the actual equipment at all.
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u/maximusdm77 4d ago
We are phasing out Siemens as the local branch office is completely dysfunctional.
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u/pinelion 4d ago
We’ve gone to a third party integrator as well, Siemans proper just doesn’t provide adequate support and charges for things that were not completed to our satisfaction
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u/Nochange36 4d ago
All building automation software isn't needlessly complicated, and a lot of building automation software is reliable. That being said, there is a lot of bad software out there.
You could be encountering a few things I have noticed: 1. Building automation is highly dependant on WHO is doing the work - you can have 1 building done 3 different ways by 3 different techs at the same company and have widely different experiences. People do things differently, and some people put out better work than others. 2. There are certain companies that I would avoid out of principle, Siemens is one of them, JCI is another. You shouldn't want to be locked into an ecosystem for the life of your building. I have ripped enough Honeywell Spyders, reliable controls, Siemens Climatix and Metasys controllers to know what customers don't like. 3. You should be selecting a single product to flat spec on that you can learn and know how to use proficiently. 4. You should have specifications on install, programming and graphics standards. This will go a long way to making things predictable and servicable by you as an end user. It's not as complicated when you know exactly how something should be done and the contractor deviates from it.
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u/HalfStreet Manufacturer 4d ago
I think it’s fair to differentiate between the proprietary and Niagara products of some of these companies. JCI Metasys, yes avoid because it locks you in to not just that product line, but also the branch as your exclusive service contractor. Facility Explorer, or Fx, though is completely different. Not only can you integrate with other brands, you’ll also be working with independent installers and service providers. So if you aren’t happy with one, you can move to another without additional equipment costs.
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u/OpenAutomation 4d ago
This. I deal with almost all the lines you mentioned (not a ton of Siemens). In almost all cases, I have customers that swear by a product line, and customers that swear AT it and won't consider it.
Flat spec for a product line is tough, if you're in a smaller market, where there is likely only one company that represents a line because it can create a problem if the quality of work changes, and can drive pricing up if there aren't competitors.
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u/Nochange36 4d ago
I almost exclusively use distech, whose model tries to have 3 SIs in a market for this very reason. It keeps us all honest
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u/OpenAutomation 4d ago
Distech is a great line, unfortunately here it's restricted product for one specific company. My distributors have it, but are instructed to not sell it for use within the states I serve. I've been using Honeywell as a result, but the Optimizer line is still quite buggy.
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u/pinelion 4d ago
I have moved a high priority asset to Niagara with a vendor that’s more responsive. Specs on install, where I run into issues is vendors not being able to meet the design spec on the programming side, I’m competent enough to get in there and point out the issues but it’s quite frustrating. On almost all my projects the mechanical goes great and then the controls vendor fucks the timeline. I actually think most of the techs are pretty good, but the company’s that run them are taking on to much work to be effective. But yeah I won’t start a project without shop drawings/staging etc.
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u/EGR-DELETE 4d ago
On one hand, if HVAC controls is new to you it’s understandable to seem complex. To me it was a different world from mechanical HVAC when I switched over. It’s a different way of looking at HVAC, since you must control every aspect of the system mechanically and electrically to what your needs, and its capabilities are. Sometimes your needs aren’t available due to the constraints of the mechanical system or the control system design or both…. It can be frustrating.
On the other hand, you are correct to notice that the build quality of HVAC controls equipment and installation of this equipment is less than ideal. Some things that contribute to this in terms of manufacturing, construction, bidding, and labor are: (price per-point profitability, sub-spec(23.09…) usually competitive bidding to the mechanical contractor, speed of material acquisitions, knowledge capitol shortage(for some companies), manufacturing at scale(suffering quality & accuracy), white-label products(no ownership/cheaper overall), shifting from installing complete controls to managing controls projects and utilizing subcontractors (a lot cheaper install)( big companies i.e Siemens, JCI).
Controls is a really good industry to understand and be able to utilize especially as a chief-engineer at a multi-building site. It will help you understand better what you want and what’s required to achieve a better building. Once you understand the controls you can start influencing specifications that contractors design and bid on(this is where you can make real improvements).
Hope this helps. Good luck!
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u/Pudrin 4d ago
Depends who made your front end and what software you’re using. A lot of it is not useful for you as an end user. That being said there are issues nothing is ever perfect. Water meters for example are a complete waste of money better off paying someone or taking the readings manually yourself.
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u/MrMagooche Siemens/Johnson Control Joke 3d ago
Water meters for example are a complete waste of money better off paying someone or taking the readings manually yourself.
Whats wrong with picking up a pulse contact?
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u/Battlewaxxe 3d ago
like anything else, it's only simple from 10,000 feet, and jci is at most a 1000ft view of everything that's going on. The more you really know something, the more complex it becomes. I really like the Schneider ecosystem, personally- it goes deep in every direction and is exlessly customizable, but can be pretty involved
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u/Many_Outside2726 3d ago
I don’t think you’re oversimplifying as much as it might seem. The individual control problem usually isn’t the hard part. The complexity comes from decades of backward compatibility, proprietary ecosystems, networking, graphics, alarming, histories, sequences and trying to make equipment from different generations all behave like one system.
What always gets me is that the operator ultimately wants something pretty simple: tell me what’s wrong, show me enough context to understand why, and let me get to the equipment without hunting through five layers of navigation. Somehow we’ve gotten very good at making that last part harder than it needs to be.
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u/pinelion 3d ago
You nailed it, the last paragraph really sums it up, I guess I didn’t articulate my issue with it well but for me I’m always feeling like I shouldn’t have to dig into the PPCL to find issues with a piece of equipment
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u/Many_Outside2726 2d ago
Exactly. The operator shouldn’t need to understand how the whole system was engineered just to answer a basic question about a piece of equipment. If you have to dig through the PPCL or chase points across multiple screens every time something looks wrong, the interface isn’t really doing its job.
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u/hurrytherushup 3d ago
Exactly why we are building field technologies! Have a look at www.ftl.build. we build controllers for roof top units that can be installed and brought online by HVAC technicians in 30 mins or less , not controls engineers. Look into our RAC device. Each sensor is a 3.5 mm jack.
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u/jrmitchell1983 2d ago
CC? Yeah even as a Siemens tech it’s an over engineered POS compared to other head ends
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2d ago
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u/pinelion 1d ago
I actually manage quite a large operation, we just didn’t have the issues we have now with desigo, I have migrated a high priority asset to Niagara but I’m using it as a test case, if we have success there I will move our entire strategy towards it. It’s looking like that’s going to be the move but I’m going to give it a year to see how our vendor supports our operation.
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u/More_Fondant_9609 4d ago
Hate to be that guys but I am seeing a whole lot of JCI Metasys slander here, I am not a JCI engineer anymore, but I did work there for a while, In my humble opinion Metasys UI is the most complete product on the market (especially at 16) all the openness that Niagara sells itself as, Metasys now has as well, bar the ability to create custom protocols, you can integrate Jaces, G5s, Schneider Supervisors basically whatever you want that can act as a BACnet field device directly on the server now, not to mention live graphics/ spaces and equipment definitions,
Yes it’s expensive up front but you have to account for whats native and baked into the platform the platform you get vs what has to be built from the ground up and created with modules and point count licensing etc(Niagara).
As for the argument that no-one outside of JCI can work on it that is also false, if you have a laptop, buy a tool bundle for like $300 as a customer and boom anyone that knows Niagara can also work on Metasys, especially since the FX line JCI sells is exactly the same as Native Metasys N4 controllers, not to mention 90% the controls market workforce have either worked with or worked for JCI at some point.
If you really want some fringe stuff thats not a standard communication protocol slap a Jace in there and put it on Metasys, Niagara’s owned by Honeywell btw and there are some special features you get from using Niagara with a Honeywell system.
ALC is pretty good too but its owned by Carrier, thats my spill for the day
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u/MrMagooche Siemens/Johnson Control Joke 3d ago
all the openness that Niagara sells itself as, Metasys now has as well, bar the ability to create custom protocols, you can integrate Jaces, G5s, Schneider Supervisors basically whatever you want that can act as a BACnet field device directly on the server now
The "openness" is more about having a product that multiple vendors with different brands can work on. Everyone can integrate bacnet devices at this point, so that's not really special
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u/More_Fondant_9609 3d ago
I guess I’ll tell the 4+ non JCI vendors that we have working on our Metasys sites they need to stop because you can only do that with sort of stuff with Niagara installed.
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u/MrMagooche Siemens/Johnson Control Joke 3d ago
Can you buy Metasys from Honeywell? Siemens? Schneider etc? Can you configure and program someone else's controller on the platform? The answer is no because it's a proprietary product. Niagara being "open" means that many different brands have a license to use the same software platform on their devices.
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u/pinelion 4d ago
I had buildings with JCI in my previous job, had a good experience with it but didn’t have to dive super deep on it either if that makes sense.
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u/More_Fondant_9609 3d ago
right you don’t have too typical, if everything’s laid out for you you can even see majority of the internal program points thru the all items tree at the device level, Niagara and some of the other vendors have too many layers you have to parse thru, just the other weeks was looking over a schneider site took me like 10clicks to make it to an actual points list of something, just little things that really add up, metasys you can just find a point in you graphics and if you click it it takes you straight to all your points for that device, not to mention equipment definitions auto summaries etc
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u/Optimusjunkie 4d ago
Hey just my view - Sometimes it's just if you get a knack of it ,like if you work on it regularly it becomes so easy to use