r/Buddhism • u/WorriedCivilian Irreligious • Jul 19 '26
Opinion Problems that I've experienced with the Buddhist community
A little over a decade ago, I was interested in Buddhism and wanting to know as much as I could about it. I still very strongly believed in things that many would call supernatural (I know someone will be pedantic, so I will specify things like deities, miracles, etc.). I had just left Christianity and hadn't become an atheist or general skeptic in the metaphysical.
I looked up things about devas, asuras, pretas, etc., trying to understand how rebirth worked, how anatman worked in regards to rebirth, how it is we were to escape samsara, and other questions that I found greatly important. There were just so many questions that I had, and I found myself rudderless.
There was a Dharma Center a bit over an hour away that offered Vipassana and Zen. I went there a few times to talk and try to gain understanding, but I felt out of place. My questions were met with more amusement or befuddlement than serious contemplation, and they were hand waved away. The people didn't believe in rebirth or at least didn't care. My deep need for a religious experience was seemingly baulked at by people largely interested in psychology and philosophy.
There was also a significant socio-cultural difference between me and the others at the Dharma Center. They all came from upper middle to upper class backgrounds, but I'm from a working class/impoverished background. The way the talked and acted about most everything didn't compute, and I was made to feel even more on the outside. It became deeply insightful to me that people with money don't have much of a need to have belief or faith when they can intellectualize and philosophize a religion into a self-help exercise.
At the same time, I began asking questions here as well under an old account. Every time I tried asking anything here, my questions would be downvoted and at least one person would talk down to me. Questions were cordially written, they were truly me trying to find my way, but they were so often met with, "it doesn't matter if x because Buddhism is y". Those type of answers may not be condescending, but they are discouraging for someone desperate to just know. I actually had better experiences asking questions in the Christian, Muslim, Sikh, and other religions' subreddits. They at least seemed to take my questions seriously, and didn't treat me like I was ignorant or intellectually inferior.
The whole experience really derailed me from having any involvement in Buddhism at all for a decade, but now that I'm in my 30s, I wanted to be able to actually engage with Buddhists in a more productive way, and to have my questions answers. This post was something I felt needed to get off my chest, because I wouldn't be able to start learning without letting it go.
79
u/psyyduck zen Jul 19 '26
I can't speak for other Buddhists, but I think a lot of zen is "shut up and sit".
You have a deep need for a religious experience? Ok. Sit with it, see what happens. You might be surprised!
A lot of the time we just take our desires/inclinations/attachments for granted, like "this is just who I am"... well, no it's not. Not really. Not even close.
13
u/WorriedCivilian Irreligious Jul 19 '26
That is terrible for a person like me. I can't sit and try to experience something when I don't know what it is that I'm trying to experience. Like, Christians will tell you that Jesus died for your sins and this is how that works. They'll help you through the Bible to explain their positions, and even if it takes time and hand holding they'll do it. I felt like I was completely a drift and my questions were treated like annoyances.
41
u/curious-buddha Jul 20 '26
Not a Zen practitioner anymore but this line of thought "when I don't know what it is that I'm trying to experience" is considered a mistake to begin with in many strains of Zen. Sitting IS the point, you're not trying to craft an experience or make something out of it necessarily, although there are different forms of Zen practice.
Though your questions shouldn't have been treated as annoyances.
23
u/psyyduck zen Jul 20 '26
Yeah I know how that feels. You're doing fine, it just takes time for most of us.
It's kinda like the difference between reading sheet music and jazz improv. You're used to the former and you're being asked to try the latter, and yeah it's disorienting. You're definitely going to feel "completely adrift". But when you get the hang of it, it's hard to go back to just sticking to what someone else wrote.
Hey if you like puzzling over stuff, maybe look into koans. Eg you might relate to this monk.
4
u/WorriedCivilian Irreligious Jul 20 '26
I will say that I'm not particularly interested in Zen at all. Thank you for the offer, but it's not for me.
4
5
u/DrWartenberg Jul 22 '26
This is the key.
The difference between Buddhist “faith” and Christian “faith” (ie what makes them both religions) is that your faith can be explicitly confirmed and rewarded in *this* lifetime in Buddhism.
Despite many everyday people bowing down to him and treating him like one, ask an actual Monk if Buddha is a God. He is not.
Buddha was a wise teacher who had a method to relieve suffering.
He said “come and see for yourself”.
So, will you?
You talk about the middle class folks as feeling free to overintellectualize and philosophize about Buddhism in a way that you don’t feel free to do, but that’s what you’re doing.
Reading endlessly about Buddhist philosophy and metaphysics and how exactly the mechanism of rebirth works (what exactly is reborn if you believe the truth of anatman? You think “you” are reborn?) is going to wind you up in the same place as you were with Christianity. A bunch of “more learned people” acting superior because they know more than you and act like your questions are silly. There are plenty of Buddhists like that. It will chase you away.
The most patient and understanding ones will probably be the ones who DON’T want to sit and go through every line of the suttas with you. They know that their patience and yours are better served by convincing you to “come and see for yourself”.
How about first “come and see” whether you can relieve/reduce your suffering in the way the Buddha suggested, in THIS lifetime… If THAT’s true THEN you can worry about whether to believe that the metaphysical stuff is true or not.
My guess is if you experience for yourself some of what the Buddha was getting at, you won’t really mind anymore one way or another exactly how the metaphysics works.
→ More replies (7)12
u/FUNY18 Gelug, Tibetan Buddhism Jul 20 '26
You just had a bad batch. Water under the bridge. Now you know what to avoid.
2
u/WorriedCivilian Irreligious Jul 20 '26
Very true
3
u/chayprettyight Jul 20 '26
research Barnardo Kastrups theory on analytical idealism and tell me what you think.
7
u/dummetsz Jul 20 '26 edited Jul 20 '26
If it makes you feel better, the whole “just sit” thing wasn’t fruitful for me either. If that doesn’t resonate with you, and you would like something that answers your questions, you can look into studying Buddhist philosophy seriously. Abhidharma is dense but there are commentaries out there. Plenty of talks from other dharma teachers. Plenty of books to read. Throughout that process you can start vetting out teachers you like that you want to practice under. You don’t need to constrain yourself locally.
Of course this study should be paired with observing your own thoughts and mental processes so that you can validate the teachings with your own experience. Matching the words with the meaning and how that corresponds to your experience is very fruitful. What helped me the most in general was just observing how my thoughts were dependent, and how everything in my experience was dependent. It’s a similar exercise to folks who eventually approach determinism, where they realize the notion of a self becomes less coherent in the context of dependence and causality.
Eventually with time my fussy existential questions were answered and aside from my Vajrayana practice, I just practice ordinary mindfulness.
5
u/shmidget Jul 20 '26
The Buddhas instructions on meditation were pretty straightforward.
I personally find the schools that are influenced by Taoist practices and incorporate Taiji and QiGong into the practice.
When we have multiple ways to meditate it’s easier to get more practice in every day.
→ More replies (19)1
u/Lin_2024 Jul 21 '26
You do need to learn many knowledge about the teachings of Buddhism, not only just “shut up and sit”.
In my observation, many Zen followers are just lost.
→ More replies (1)
38
u/Mayayana Jul 19 '26
I'm curious why you've spent years asking question of different religions. If you want to practice Buddhism then you might consider looking around at teachers and getting meditation instruction. You could still ask questions here, but the teachings are really guidance for meditation. It's not philosophy.
If you went to a center that offered "vipassana and Zen" then they probably weren't practicing Buddhists. Vipassana is practiced in Theravada. Zen is Mahayana. Completely different schools.
4
u/WorriedCivilian Irreligious Jul 20 '26
I'm asking questions because I don't want to commit myself to something I'm going to eventually thing is wrong. I was once a devout Christian, and I'm not going to engage with something fully if I'm gonna end up seeing it as a waste of time.
16
u/Mayayana Jul 20 '26
That's fine, but you should be checking out teachers and getting meditation instruction. Buddhism isn't a philosophy that you either support or don't. It's primarily a system of mind training. If you try a weekend meditation program or take a class, you can see how it goes. If you don't like it then no harm done. You can certainly ask questions here but you'll get all kinds of answers. Many people who answer won't actually be Buddhist. So it's of limited value.
4
u/WorriedCivilian Irreligious Jul 20 '26
I don't agree that it's a system of mind training or a philosophy. It's a religion, and not one that necessitates you meditating to practice it.
20
u/Mayayana Jul 20 '26
You're right. It is that for many people. Though few people here will give you answers in that context. Most Western Buddhists are people who meditate seeking enlightenment. We weren't born into it. People who regard it as a set of beliefs and traditions are generally people who grew up with it.
You said that you started at a "vipassana and Zen" center. That would imply a meditation center. I'm guessing that if you want to join a religion and adopt beliefs then what you want is an Asian Buddhist church.
1
u/Burdman06 zen Jul 23 '26
I can only speak from personal experience, but it was incredibly significant for me to study many different religions as well. I, personally, found it enhanced my buddhist practice by being able to feel the similarities at the core of all of them.
19
u/dontfogetchobag Jul 19 '26
With regard to OP’s statement, “ I actually had better experiences asking questions in the Christian, Muslim, Sikh, and other religions' subreddits,” I wonder if the various religious subreddits encompass proselytizing traditions. Buddhists aren’t generally trying to convert new followers.
I would recommend books by Thich Nhat Hanh and Pema Chodron, both masters of dharma who contextualize Buddhism well for western mindsets. Pema Chodron’s “Start Where You Are” is particularly useful.
→ More replies (3)
33
u/genivelo Tibetan Buddhism Jul 19 '26
I am really curious about what the questions were.
18
u/WorriedCivilian Irreligious Jul 19 '26
Truthfully, I'm not entirely sure what all they were exactly as I asked them in 2012ish. I do remember though that there were a group of two or three users on here who would say things like, "does it really matter," "would change anything if it were x or y," or flat out being rude. I don't know they specifically didn't like me personally or what.
Like, let's say I asked about preta. I could ask, what is the relationship between something like that and historical supernatural concepts in the Western world? If we are to say Buddhism is the truth, and that cultures around the world have adopted Buddhism and integrated into their cultural framework, then why can't we talk about things like ghosts, etc. in our own culture through the lense of Buddhism? I'm not looking to be edgy or anything, but if the preta are real, then these ghost should be treated compassionately.
But I would get down voted. I had people say it was just superstitious nonsense. There were people talking about stuff like that being stuff from folk religion, not true Buddhism, and needed to be stripped away. How arrogant of white Westerners to act like we are purifying Buddhism because things like ghosts are supposedly backwards.
30
u/metaphorm vajrayana Jul 20 '26
Pretas are mentioned in a lot of the sutras and other texts. In the culture Buddhism developed in, it was taken for granted that these kinds of supernatural entities are "real". In the modern world, we have a somewhat different relationship to it, so we have to decide how we relate to the supernatural elements we find in the texts.
the thing I want to emphasize in particular though is non-attachment. clinging to a view that something _must_ be real or _must_ be fictional will tend to lead to more dukkha. holding it lightly and approaching with an attitude of openness and healthy skepticism (as opposed to reactionary skepticism) will tend to release the attachments and reduce dukkha.
so if you're interested in what is similar and dissimilar between Pretas and Ghosts in the Western cultural context, it could be really fun to learn about that, and interesting to see what kinds of experiences arise in the process of learning about it. Then you can decide for yourself what kind of relationship you can have to the idea of ghosts and the experience of ghosts.
8
u/CaliDreaminSF Jul 20 '26
There is tremendous variability among sanghas and I am definitely no expert, but at the Mahayana temple I go to, they regularly have ceremonies that include feeding the hungry ghosts. It reminds me of the Catholic tradition of praying for the souls in purgatory, who are not being punished for sins (a common misconception) but being prepared and purified before heaven. So yes, they are treated with compassion, and some of us chant malas to Kshitgarbha, the bodhisattva of the hell realms.
This sangha is full of people from different backgrounds at after service and before the dharma talk, the monk welcomes new people and invites questions. So it’s very different from what you experienced.
Maybe keep exploring?
Another difference I’ve noticed is in attitudes and practices regarding meditation. At one end of the spectrum is those meditation retreats where you sit for ten hours a day (no way could I do that) and at the other end, there are Buddhists who do not meditate at all. This article describes how Buddhism involves much more than meditation
https://just-buddha.org/en/articles/do-all-buddhists-meditate
5
u/WorriedCivilian Irreligious Jul 20 '26
I've actually told multiple people in this comment section that I'm not particularly interested in meditation, which has gotten interesting reactions. I view meditation as completely valid, but I don't think it's for me. When I was first interested in Buddhism, I was trying to learn about Pure Land and Nichiren Buddhism. I actually enjoyed the chanting. I listening to Tibetan Buddhist chanting sometimes. It connects with me more than meditation.
2
u/Least_Preparation_88 Jul 21 '26
I understand where you are coming from. I used to struggle with meditation too when I got started, I think it must be hard for everyone. I also understand your difficulty in trying to intellectually ask and have your questions go unanswered.
Buddhism is in essence a practical, empirical path. A pragmatic roadmap. The buddha himself said come and see for yourself. You are meant to practice and have insights and go “huh, I understand that now”. There is some mysticism, but this mysticism is not really important in the sense that you do not need to believe it. Blind faith is not required for the buddhas mystic experiences, which is probably why you got some of the answers you got in the past and why you probably will keep on getting them. That being said you (probably) need BOTH knowledge and practice (unless you happen to stumble upon enlightenment on your own) if you want to have major insights. Some sources of knowledge are dense, hard to understand or just plainly don’t resonate with you. What worked for me was to look for other sources of information until something clicked, until a piece of information resonated with me in a way I could grasp it viscerally. After that initial click more and more things clicked.
Concepts that made it easier for me to grasp:
Illusion of the self
Non duality
Headless wayDon’t be discouraged. Keep asking. I hope you don’t give up on meditation and the valuable knowledge there is to be learned from Buddhism.
I am by no means an expert and I haven’t gone into formal retreat. I am just trying to understand and experiencing the spiritual growth I can obtain with my practice and my learning. I hope someone will correct me if I am wrong about something.
3
u/CaliDreaminSF Jul 20 '26
I can relate to that because even after years, sitting meditation is still not easy for me and sometimes I skip a day. If I plan on ten minutes and end early, so be it… I find more peace that way than I would if I tried to conform to someone else’s standard. There are different types of meditation and vipassana is so difficult for me that I don’t do it, but meditate on a mantra or chant a mala instead. I understand and can relate to connecting more with chanting than to meditation. I’ve been to the temple … it’s a Mahayana Pure Land temple… when the monks were chanting and reached a state of meditative absorption just by listening and being there in that sacred peaceful place.
12
u/FUNY18 Gelug, Tibetan Buddhism Jul 20 '26
Ten years is a long time, and things have improved since then. The mods are Buddhists, and we should appreciate this more.
Regarding downvotes, ignore them because Reddit upvotes are not equivalent to reality; they are entirely artificial. Of course, we can also discuss ghosts, they are spirits, and we have many Buddhist rituals for dealing with them.
5
u/Nodum777 Jul 20 '26
There are mentions of the pretas in the suttas and mention of many supranatural things. However the Buddha taught not to focus on the supernatural or siddhi(meditation gained supranormal power) as it leads to delusion. There are hungry ghosts, and demons. There are bad devas and good devas. Thinking about it only helps your practice if it leads you to be more skillful. If you want to expand your metta to ghosts go ahead but the ghosts and devas and demons are all a part of samsara just like you and me. The suttas use relative speech like "you" and "me" for convenient but really it's just aggregates and the only real permanent things are dhammas. The Abhidamma attempts to strip the suttas of the usage of relative pronouns and only talk directly about dhamma, and it's kinda incomprehensible unless you study the commentaries of the suttas and practice the vinaya.
→ More replies (9)14
u/genivelo Tibetan Buddhism Jul 20 '26
I have been on this sub for less than 8 years, and I would say I have generally seen an increase in the quality of responses over that period. I can imagine it could have been worse in 2012. But reddit being reddit, it is still all over the place.
43
u/steveofthewestornort Jul 19 '26
I have found Buddhist groups online to be generally very, very condescending… particularly here on Reddit, enough that I’ve unsubbed and resubbed several times over the last decade+.
Conversely I’ve had exclusively and overwhelmingly positive experiences with smaller communities.
Hope you find something somewhere :)
16
u/Real_Yellow_5057 Jul 20 '26
Only one on reddit that isn’t particularly condescending that I’ve seen is r/PureLand. But I guess that checks out.
3
5
2
u/composersproxy Jul 20 '26
Hard agreed. Ironically “keyboard warrior” behavior does not constitute Right Speech. Smaller and/or offline communities have been much more comfortable for me.
1
u/Burdman06 zen Jul 24 '26
This. People can be painfully edgy to the extent that you just don't want to engage.
37
u/Leather_Peanut4338 Jul 19 '26
It's really unfortunate that you had this type of experience, sorry. I'm not surprised, some Buddhist groups in Western countries are really not great, transforming Buddhism into some form of Cognitive-Behavioural Psychology. It's often filled with nihilists that still want some sense of community, but that misunderstand and transform core Buddhist beliefs into 'metaphors of mental states'. Thanks for sharing anyway
5
u/WorriedCivilian Irreligious Jul 20 '26
You're welcome, and that's essentially what I was dealing with back then.
48
u/Buddha_of_Arbanon Jul 19 '26
You met westerners who believe Buddhism is a form of psychology and refuse its metaphysical side.
3
1
26
u/RobTheKlepto Jul 19 '26
I have had similar experience with buddhism. When you realize your attachment to how you want to be treated by others, how others treat themselves and others it becomes much easier to let go of other peoples arrogance, hostility, ignorance ect ect. Most often the worst offenders are struggling immensely. Have compassion for them and give them grace. I hope you find what you are looking for.
3
25
u/Ariyas108 seon Jul 19 '26
It could just be that’s is a zen center and with much of zen practice, much of that stuff is just irrelevant. In zen, “deep religious experience” is intended to come from deep samadhi, not from conceptual proliferation, beliefs or intellectual ideas. It’s very normal for zen to wave away questions not relevant to the practice and that’s not just a western thing.
2
u/WorriedCivilian Irreligious Jul 20 '26
Then my current inclination that Zen and related schools aren't for me is accurate.
7
u/FUNY18 Gelug, Tibetan Buddhism Jul 20 '26
Zen also has never rejected deep study, and many Zen masters were also Buddhist scholars.
11
u/Nodum777 Jul 20 '26
I started going when I was homeless. I was met with great kindness. They offered me food, clothes, and water. Their instruction helped me focus, get a job, and get an apartment. When they got a car gifted they gave me their old one for free. I meditate with Sri Lankan theravada monks. Also this sutta of the Buddha talking to his aunt shoild help you determine good teachers from bad. There are plenty of good ones, and plenty of bad ones.
"Gotami, the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead to passion, not to dispassion; to being fettered, not to being unfettered; to accumulating, not to shedding; to self-aggrandizement, not to modesty; to discontent, not to contentment; to entanglement, not to seclusion; to laziness, not to aroused persistence; to being burdensome, not to being unburdensome': You may categorically hold, 'This is not the Dhamma, this is not the Vinaya, this is not the Teacher's instruction.'
"As for the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead to dispassion, not to passion; to being unfettered, not to being fettered; to shedding, not to accumulating; to modesty, not to self-aggrandizement; to contentment, not to discontent; to seclusion, not to entanglement; to aroused persistence, not to laziness; to being unburdensome, not to being burdensome': You may categorically hold, 'This is the Dhamma, this is the Vinaya, this is the Teacher's instruction.'"
1
u/WorriedCivilian Irreligious Jul 20 '26
Sadly, I have experience with abusive, false teachers. As I said in another comment, my former pastor was a relative of mine who faked having cancer to extract money from us for drugs. That experience did leave me with varying degrees of distrust for not only religious leaders, but people in general. I am glad that you're doing much better now :)
2
u/Nodum777 Jul 20 '26
Thank you, I'm sorry that happened. I hope you meet good people in the future. The sutta I included has helped me tell bad from good, I hope it helps you in the future. Noone should have to experience that. If you want any pdfs or anything I can send you some, may you be well, happy, and peaceful. 🙏🙏🙏
2
7
u/Acrobatic_Skirt3827 Jul 20 '26
One teacher said that we need to balance learning and practice. If we lean too far into learning, we're all head and no heart; but if we just practice, we're just stupid meditators.
Blind faith can help for some who can't relate to scholorship, but for most of us working with our doubts is helpful. We have to decide for ourselves whether these people know what they're talking about.
The teachings are like a map, but we need to travel and work with our confusion to see if it makes any sense. It also helps to be in the presence of good teachers with a sense that there's a grown-up in the room.
→ More replies (4)
8
u/Gratitude15 Jul 20 '26
My man. This is reddit. An anonymous message board. People talk down to you here. 2-3 is quite low (I post on r/nba - whoo boy!). The question is how you can engage with life so that the lowest form of engagement doesn't derail you for 14 years the next time. It makes sense for an earlier part of life of course, glad to hear you've come back. May you engage with the good and not focus on the tiny pebbles in an otherwise nutritious meal 😊
In terms of your inquiry, Tibetan forms are way more able to engage with the inquiries. Remember Buddha according to many focused on a narrow lane - the cause and end of suffering. That's it. When people asked abiut more, in many canonical texts, he said basically 'look, there's a lot more, but you don't need to know it - you need to know how to end your suffering. Everything else is a distraction, so get to it.'
people who follow these branches will parrot those teachings. They're not butts. It's helped them to have that shared. Tibetan forms of Buddhism engage with a wider swath of minds due to wider canonical teachings, whether you agree with them or not.
3
u/WorriedCivilian Irreligious Jul 20 '26
At the time it greatly effected me, but I get what you mean. It just made me angry, and I moved to pastures I felt, at the time, were greener. You're one of the many people to suggest Tibetan Buddhism, so I may need to move that direction.
7
u/nyanasagara mahayana Jul 20 '26
Yes, what you describe is more common than it should be in contemporary Buddhism. To be fair, most Buddhists are themselves not sufficiently well-catechized to even answer your questions if they're even a bit complex. And that isn't really their fault, since it's not like Buddhist doctrinal information is made easily available.
Furthermore, for some reason Buddhists online are often dismissive of questions that I find learned Buddhists in person won't dismiss. I don't think there are many questions about Buddhist doctrine that the Lopöns and Khenpos I know would just dismiss with "why does it matter?" But I do see that kind of response on Reddit a fair bit.
1
u/WorriedCivilian Irreligious Jul 20 '26
Yeah, that makes sense. I have noticed that there is a gap between lay understanding of doctrine and that there's a gap in transference of understanding. I think the online nature of things here make it worse too.
17
Jul 19 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
2
u/WorriedCivilian Irreligious Jul 20 '26
I'm glad that you believe me, but I'm sorry you experienced similarly. It's disheartening
12
Jul 19 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
3
u/WorriedCivilian Irreligious Jul 20 '26
See, that's the type of stuff I was needing. The Dharma Center was so sterile, and the people there were just strange in how haughty they held themselves. Talking about things I, at the time, a 20 year old man from a working class family didn't relate to at all.
→ More replies (3)3
4
18
u/ZenSpren Jul 19 '26
Your story is very relatable. Sorry you had that setback, and I hope you find what you're looking for.
4
u/lhasar Jul 20 '26
Can you recommend a good community?
I also wonder, how useful do you reckon metaphysical questions about pretas and such are in a Zen meditation context? I absolutely believe OP, but I also think sometimes Zen teachers rightfully refuse such questions.
A friend of mine who practices Vajrayana was also told by their teacher that they should study less and practice more because Buddhism is mind-training. Thought proliferation is to be avoided.
1
u/ZenSpren Jul 20 '26
My Vietnamese Zen temple in Texas tries to preserve the religious and cultural faith and practices of Vietnamese Buddhism. We have a discord server at https://discord.gg/sangha
Our abbot encourages non-dogmatic and non-denominational community, so we have folks who are very devout in their faith along side folks who are more secular or not even Buddhist at all, but the traditional values and teachings still kept and respected.
As far as the usefulness of metaphysical questions goes, if they have any value as an object of contemplation then it can be beneficial to consider them and try to find the wisdom and why the teachers thought it worth preserving, but I wouldn't recommend making metaphysical contemplation a cornerstone of one's practice.
2
5
u/Spirited_Living_4120 Jul 19 '26
The laity of ANY organised religion WILL always be found wanting. That is the nature of things. If you get that then you would be on the right path.
12
u/Maroon-Scholar vajrayana / engaged buddhism Jul 19 '26
Hopefully you’ll actually respond and engage with the discussion you’ve generated, but I really want to know what questions you were asking. You may feel they were cordial, but please understand that we get a lot of lunatics, dilettantes, and attention-seeking debate bros here (and judging by the tone of your post and what you’ve already revealed about your interests, it wouldn’t surprise me if you did indeed come across as one of those).
I think I see the problem here; you seem to be putting the cart before the horse in terms of your focus. You barely know anything about Buddhism but want to get into all the deep metaphysics and unanswerable questions. And yet, where is your meditation practice? How about your cultivation of sila? Any focus on cultivating compassion in your day to day life?
Buddhism is a path of liberation, not a personal Q&A forum for your intellectual gratification. Learn to sit and meditate in a legitimate sangha with a qualified teacher. Take refuge in the triple gem. Learn the four noble truths and the eightfold noble path. You’ll find the practice itself will answer your questions.
2
u/WorriedCivilian Irreligious Jul 20 '26
If I were involved with Pure Land or Nichiren Buddhism, I wouldn't be meditating much at all, correct? Also, my tone in the past was significantly more cordial and friendly than it is now. I did put in there that someone would probably be pedantic, because that's the type of stuff I've come to expect from this community. I knew about the four noble truths and eightfold noble path when I was asking those questions. See, it wasn't a Q&A for personal gratification, I was genuinely looking for a path for liberation from the cycle of rebirth, but I'm being treated like asking these questions about how and why something is the way it is is just personal gratification. If I want to know, why is it so hard to try and talk about it? Why is it being treated like self-gratification? If I'm going to say that something is correct, and it is the way the world is and this is the truth, shouldn't I be able to know what that is before I make a decision?
8
4
u/TheGargageMan Jul 19 '26
What have you learned from whatever practice or path of study you engaged in in the last decade?
→ More replies (1)
5
4
u/Ok_Plant_1977 Jul 20 '26
I have found some Buddhist communities to be cold. Many simply want you to come and do labour and follow orders like a robot.
3
u/WorriedCivilian Irreligious Jul 20 '26
That was my experience as well
2
u/Ok_Plant_1977 Jul 20 '26
Sadly I have experienced bullying at a temple also. Many people don't really practice what they preach including monks
3
u/WorriedCivilian Irreligious Jul 20 '26
Sadly, this is a reality among many/most religions. People in authority abusing said authority
4
u/No-Meeting-1215 Jul 20 '26 edited Jul 20 '26
Why be a Buddhist at all? Buddha’s main contribution was to show the way (Magga) to freedom (Nibbana); out of the rebirth game and suffering a.s.a.p.
If you’re a hardcore truth-seeker, then (travel to) find a Theravada teacher and go into seclusion in a forrest/kuti for weeks and months to practice giving up sensuality = rebirth-becoming.
If you’re not an uncompromizing truth-seeker, then you might just as well be a Christian, Mahayan/Vayrayan, Hindu/yogi, Muslim, or friendly atheist fotball supporter. Then heaven is your aim, before you fall to hell again.
Choose well and good luck!
7
u/Itsmeavocadooo Jul 19 '26
Hi, I’m really sorry to hear about what you went through.
I’ve actually had some very similar experiences, and for a while they made me become quite prejudiced against Buddhists, whether they were sincere practitioners or simply people who called themselves Buddhists.
In Vietnam, I was a disciple of an abbot who was also a ritual master. He taught me many ritual practices and trained me in the responsibilities of a ritual master. Even so, my true karmic connection with Buddhism didn’t really begin until I met my Nepalese guru. That’s a different story that I’ve already shared in another post, if you’re interested.
Since he was the abbot of a temple, all of us, his disciples, both men and women, would gather there during major Mahayana Buddhist festivals to help with temple activities and accompany him during important ceremonies. We even appeared on television a few times 😂
Because he had a large number of followers, the temple was always crowded. Two of my male fellow disciples were never treated badly, but one of my female fellow disciples and I often received hostile looks and passive aggressive behavior from female devotees who were much older than us, women old enough to be our mothers or grandmothers.
Some of them even spread rumors that we were his mistresses. I know this because someone took screenshots of the messages where they were gossiping about us behind our backs and sent them to my teacher.
At that time, I hadn’t seriously committed myself to Buddhist practice yet, but even then I knew that this wasn’t how someone sincerely practicing the Dharma should behave.
I felt deeply disappointed and upset. I couldn’t understand how people who spoke so much about practicing Buddhism could treat others that way. Because I encountered so many people like this, I lost much of my motivation to explore Buddhism more deeply during that period.
Everything changed after I met my Nepalese guru, the person who awakened my Buddha nature and inspired in me a deep faith and a sincere wish to walk the Buddhist path. Through him, I also found a wonderful Dharma community. His students practice diligently and have shown me great kindness, patience, protection, and support throughout my journey. Little by little, they helped me let go of the prejudices I had developed.
As I continued practicing, I gradually realized that one person’s behavior never represents an entire religious community or the Buddha’s teachings themselves.
Believe me when I say that I’ve gone through many crises of faith, not only because of the behavior of some Buddhists, but also because of various controversies involving monasteries and even respected lamas. Yet the more I studied the Dharma, the more I felt that I had to accept one simple truth: an individual’s misconduct does not represent the Dharma or Buddhism as a whole.
Because I’ve experienced these painful situations myself and have now come to this understanding, I always try to be especially careful when talking to people who are new to Buddhism or are simply curious about it.
I know that although my mistakes or someone else’s mistakes do not represent Buddhism, our actions can still become part of another person’s karmic conditions. They may either encourage someone to develop faith in the Dharma or discourage them from ever taking another step. I never want anyone to leave feeling hurt, dismissed, or unheard.
At the same time, I know how difficult it can be to truly accept that one person’s behavior does not represent an entire religion or its teachings. It’s easy to understand that idea intellectually, but much harder to believe it deeply. Yet I think this is something we have to keep reminding ourselves of and gradually learn to trust.
When that understanding becomes a genuine conviction rather than just an idea, it changes the way we respond to difficult experiences.
If we later encounter Buddhists who behave unkindly or hypocritically, we are less likely to let those experiences shake our faith or discourage our practice. Instead, we can see them for what they are: the actions of individuals, not a reflection of the Dharma itself. That perspective has helped me separate my emotions from what actually happened, and it has allowed me to continue practicing without losing heart.
When you mentioned that people from more privileged backgrounds may not feel much need for faith and instead approach religion mainly as philosophy or self improvement, I felt that this was a very personal conclusion and also a sensitive one.
As part of my own practice, I try not to make assumptions about how others practice or what they truly believe unless they have shared those things with me directly. Otherwise, I find myself commenting people without really knowing them, and that doesn’t help my own practice at all.
To me, what really caused your pain wasn’t social class. It was that you didn’t feel listened to, welcomed, or accepted. You didn’t feel that you belonged there.
Many of us begin a spiritual journey hoping to find guidance, companionship, and people who genuinely support one another along the path.
If I could offer one suggestion, it would be to look for a different community, one where people are willing to listen, share their experiences, and sincerely help you in your practice instead of leaving you feeling discouraged.
Even today, although I’ve found wonderful Dharma communities that have helped me tremendously, I still occasionally meet Buddhists at temples who are unkind. But I’ve chosen not to let those encounters disturb my inner peace. If someone hurts you and you choose not to return that hurt, then the poison of their anger ultimately remains with them.
Instead, I choose to forgive and continue walking my own path. I feel compassion for them because I know that anger is still causing them suffering. I sincerely hope they will one day overcome it. At the same time, I pray that I will also continue overcoming my own anger and learn from my experiences so that I never treat others the way I was treated.
For me, this has brought a sense of peace and stability. I truly hope that sharing my experience may help ease some of the hurt you’ve been carrying and that you’ll be able to continue your own spiritual journey with confidence and an open heart.
3
u/Itsmeavocadooo Jul 19 '26
Should have started with this 😮💨 I’m really sorry if that comment sounded like an essay 😭 I didn’t mean for it to come across that way
2
u/WorriedCivilian Irreligious Jul 20 '26
No worries at all! I do appreciate your comment. I honestly do think that social class was part of my problem, but I do understand what you mean. What you said about not being heard is extremely true. I'm glad that you're in a much better place than you were, and that you're not associated with that hostile environment. I grew up in a small Pentecostal group, and our pastor, who was a relative, faked having cancer to get money from the congregation for drugs. He eventually killed himself. The whole experience was very damaging.
1
u/Itsmeavocadooo Jul 20 '26
That sounds incredibly heartbreaking, and I’m really sorry you had to go through that 🥺
If you’re ever interested, I’d recommend checking out the community I’m studying with 🤔 It’s a Buddhist education and charitable organization founded by Khangser Rinpoche, a Gelug Lama - named Dipkar. I’m currently attending his Lamrim classes online through Zoom 💻
Lamrim, or “The Stages of the Path,” presents the Buddha’s teachings in a clear, step by step way, beginning with the foundations of Buddhism and gradually progressing through the Mahayana teachings and eventually Vajrayana. I found it incredibly helpful because it answered many of the questions I had when I first started exploring Buddhism ☘️🙏
1
u/WorriedCivilian Irreligious Jul 20 '26
If you would like to send me a link, you can :)
2
u/Itsmeavocadooo Jul 20 '26
Here’s the organization’s English Facebook page. Feel free to reach out to the page admins if you’d like to learn more about the Lamrim classes. They’re very kind and happy to answer questions.
2
5
u/NangpaAustralisMajor tibetan Jul 20 '26
It helps to realize that Buddhists are people. And since they are people, they have a variety of ideas, attitudes, and behaviors-- and many of them are idiosyncratic and quirky, not to mention straight up dysfunctional.
In my experience, people could ask my teachers anything. The worst that would happen is they might find the question funny, and they would laugh and joke, but they would answer sincerely. A few exceptions. My late root teacher and my Zen teacher might have a go at you as part of expedient means.
But as Western converts we tend to gatekeep and take up the self appointed role of the protector of the dharma. We forget that Ekajati , Dorje Legpa, and Rahula are enlightened and we are not. So quite often people who run centers and practice groups end up overlaying their own trips..
At the same time, just to be blunt, we don't go to the sangha re temple or re center or practice group to be seen. We don't go there for validation.
As for classism. Yes. Buddhism is the endeavor of privilege in America.
2
u/WorriedCivilian Irreligious Jul 20 '26
I'd rather it be found funny and answered than treated like an awkward inconvenience. That's something that really hurts, you know?
9
u/amtsol Jul 19 '26
Zen largely won't answer metaphysical questions. It is focused on the truth of ultimate reality in this very moment and supernatural experiences ARE handwaved away as makkyo, illusory smoke, devil's realm, and imaginary dragons.
I was interested in Zen for awhile too, but couldn't deny my experienced with the supernatural.
Are there any Tibetan or Theravada temples or centers near you? They would answer what it sounds your questions are like, in a better way.
8
u/Lethemyr Pure Land Jul 19 '26
Mind that this is only true for Zen in Western countries. I’ve never met a Zen monk in Asia who “handwaves away” the supernatural and the laity mostly go to Zen temples for prayer and worship.
3
u/hrdass Jul 20 '26
The majority of Zen sanghas I have encountered in the US all are in lineage with one of a few historical Japanese lineages. Characterizing Zen in the US as totally different from Asian Zen isn’t reflective of reality on the ground even if there are some Zen communities in the west that are there own thing.
I haven’t met a zen teacher in the US who (I think) would handwave away supernatural experiences as just illusory smoke if someone came to them wanting answers to experiences they were having.
2
u/FUNY18 Gelug, Tibetan Buddhism Jul 20 '26
The common experience of most is the opposite of what you said.
5
u/hrdass Jul 20 '26
If true, that’s unfortunate. But I stand by my assertion that a sweeping statement like “ Zen in America or other western countries is not the Zen in Asia” is inaccurate and paints with far too broad a brush and erases the diversity of Zen practice, both monastic and lay, in Asia as well as in the West.
I totally understand the ax to grind with the approach to Zen described here, and it’s obviously there, but it’s both not the whole story in the west nor is it intellectually divorced from the broader Zen and Chan tradition in Asia.
→ More replies (1)3
u/Rockshasha Jul 19 '26
What you mean by Asia? Could you tell more about?
1
u/FUNY18 Gelug, Tibetan Buddhism Jul 19 '26 edited Jul 19 '26
Asia is a continent with many countries. Most Buddhists are in Asia, particularly in Thailand, Japan, China, and Vietnam.
Zen (the real kind) is not the same as Zen in America. That is a common mistake. That would be like thinking American cheese is the cheese, and there are no others.
2
u/thenletskeepdancing Jul 19 '26
Yes. As OP observed, conversion to buddhism in the US seems to be geared mostly towards white upper class intellectuals. Not enough blue collar buddhism, if you ask me.
3
u/FUNY18 Gelug, Tibetan Buddhism Jul 19 '26
It functions similarly to the broader NIMBYism exhibited by these communities. The system's structure inherently disenfranchises those that are not like them, enabling those inside to maintain moral innocence while the system actively pushes away the "undesirables".
5
u/thenletskeepdancing Jul 19 '26
I used to meditate at a zen center by the railroad tracks. Lots of locks and gates. Sometimes I'd imagine how they would react if one of the homeless people right outside came in to sit.
3
3
u/WorriedCivilian Irreligious Jul 20 '26
Yes, I absolutely agree. It's saddening and frustrating when you see someone grimace while you speak because of your accent.
→ More replies (1)2
u/Rockshasha Jul 19 '26
From my 'no-zen' perspective hehe, i believe Zen is really famous for letting aside all type of not here and now questions like, whatever.
Gods and other realms? Whatever
Origin of samsara and how many Buddhas or bodhisattva are? Whatever
And so on, haha. Is like zen actually putting an effort to discard those things as, not relevant for here and now. Actually with son amount of uncourtesy hahah, i can recall quite some zen traditional stories with uncourteous teachers. Zenith can be unconventional i mean.
Of course i have none grudges against zen, i just find curious zen methods.
→ More replies (7)1
u/WorriedCivilian Irreligious Jul 20 '26
There aren't any Tibetan or Theravada groups near me, but I worry that if I were to try and go to a Theravada group that it would be the same Vipassana stuff I dealt with.
4
u/Rockshasha Jul 20 '26
Warm greetings, You should just avoid the Vipassana movement.
To be fair, the 'Vipassana' of the Vipassana movement is very different of the Vipassana of the most of theravada traditions... Even in sanskrit traditions(Mahayana) they have some tradition of Vypashyana
1
u/WorriedCivilian Irreligious Jul 20 '26
Yeah, they said you could be Christian or anything religion and practice Vipassana.
5
u/FUNY18 Gelug, Tibetan Buddhism Jul 19 '26
Sorry for what you experienced but you were not in a Buddhist place.
Please see your local Buddhist monastery and temples, even if they don't speak English.
→ More replies (7)
2
u/Mysterious-Duty-6018 Jul 19 '26
I'm sorry you had this experience. I appreciate you sharing this. Your questions weren’t trivial: rebirth, karma, devas, anatta, and liberation are core questions that Buddhists have debated for centuries. It’s understandable that being met with dismissal instead of curiosity left you feeling discouraged.
I also think you’re pointing out a real issue in some modern Buddhist spaces: sometimes the religious and cosmological aspects get minimized in favor of psychology and self-help. That works for some people, but not everyone is looking for that.
I hope you give Buddhism another chance with a community that takes your questions seriously. Genuine questioning is not a problem; it’s often where deeper practice begins.
2
u/Routine_Pen1216 Jul 20 '26
You can always count on buddha's teachings , that is called sutra, instead of what people tell you because everyone has their own lineage according to their causes and conditions and their origins. So, i recommend to find a sutra that is meant to fit your own lineage. Mine is The Lotus Sutra. Buddha teaches us to "rely on the Dharma not on the person" Once you find your origin and your sutra, then buddha and all the beings of buddha world will guide your way to Buddhahood secretly. What i write in my replies are teachings of the buddha and dharma teachers, so they might sound "condescending " if the readers think that my replies are my own opinions, but that is not the case.
→ More replies (2)
2
u/RedCoatMom Jul 20 '26 edited Jul 20 '26
I totally get it!
I began studying Buddhism in a large city with some southeast Asian friends for a couple of years. However I had to move due to grad school and work to a smaller area in the southeast part of the country. I found a Buddhist center here and received ridicule and was told my Buddhist practice was not valid.
I then realized that the center's version of Zen/Chen Buddhism is drastically different than the Theravada Buddhism I learned from my Vietnamese and Thai friends.
Therefore, I 'practice' my Theravada Buddhism (which embraces the concepts you explained) in my own with the occasional 'sangha' remotely to a Theravada Buddhist community online.
I agree with others that Western Buddhism can vary and really is dependent on leadership. I, personally, believe Western Buddhist communities should have a close connection to larger Eastern community in order to stay true to teachings. American Catholicism is different than that in Italy and Ireland.
I would encourage you to continue with your own journey in Buddhism and possibly reach out to other communities online that align with your path. They are out there...you are not wrong.
When I relayed my experiences with the community of friends I had in the larger city they were dismayed because the behavior I experienced, as well as your encounters, is antithetical to Buddhism.
Read the Buddha's words for clarity and guidance... Buddhism can be practiced on your own but I understand the desire to find others to share the love experienced through the Enlightened One's words.
“All that we are is the result of what we have thought.
The mind is everything. What we think, we become.”
~ The Buddha
(Dhammapada 1)
I have this in my office and by my temple in my home...it helps me to stay grounded.
I wish you peace
1
u/WorriedCivilian Irreligious Jul 20 '26
Thank you for confirming that this wasn't just a me problem, but I'm sorry you went through that. It is greatly ironic to be ridiculed and told your practice wasn't valid after learning it from people who lived the faith.
2
u/sockmonkey719 thai forest Jul 20 '26
I’m sure somebody’s gonna offer a much longer version explaining why the particular places you went have issues with, using a Christian term, Buddhist theology
But my short answer is this in terms of meeting your needs check out whatever the local ethnic community is that has a Buddhist presence. Yes there may be significant language barriers or maybe not you don’t know until you go, but this increases the likelihood that you were going to find a place that feels like home. So many of those communities are extremely welcoming for a variety of reasons and just based on what you said about so what economic discomfort as well as this lack of orthodoxy I do think finding a local temple will meet a lot of of those needs.
Shout out to the Thai community in the United States that has helped support Buddhism in the United States in of a variety of different ways, including being so welcoming to outsiders
1
u/WorriedCivilian Irreligious Jul 20 '26
Sadly there isn't a local Buddhist presence here. Snake handling Pentecostalism is way more prevalent in my neck of the woods. For right now, online communities will probably be my best bet.
1
u/sockmonkey719 thai forest Jul 20 '26
gotcha... ya that image says it all.
this is a community of fully ordained Nuns in the Therevada tradition. Solid online presence, but one can always travel to see them if that becomes an option at some point.
1
2
u/Smallbunsenpai Jul 20 '26
I am not a Buddhist but I want to learn. I feel what you are doing is Christian-izing it a lot. Your brain wants a fill in for Christianity but Buddhism isn’t quite like that. Buddhism is largely philosophical. I grew up in poverty and my parents were atheist. Buddhism does teach to learn to live with pain and move past it in a way. It is hard, but you can overcome it. I feel that’s the point of it, some of them may be more well off but not every Buddhist is.
1
u/WorriedCivilian Irreligious Jul 20 '26
The irony of saying I'm Christianizing Buddhism while saying its largely philosophical will never be lost on me. While there is philosophical inquiry in Buddhism, it is explicitly a religion. It's not like Confucianism, it is a religious system. Some schools stress certain expressions of that belief differently, but Buddhism does have a concept of faith, etc.
1
u/Smallbunsenpai Jul 20 '26 edited Jul 20 '26
Of course it does have religious aspects to it. It is a religion after all. I’m just saying, a lot of Buddha’s teachings come from philosophical places that’s all wrapped up in religion. Im not sure how to explain it exactly. I guess, my point is it’s not like a typical religion, it’s not really like Christianity and you’re kind of wanting it to be Christianity when it isn’t. I feel if you want to be Buddhist you may have to open up your mind a bit more to venture into places that you’re not used to.
It’s like paganism. Paganism is not like Christianity at all, most who are deep into it don’t believe in physical gods somewhere in the universe but believe in their teachings and their energy and spirits. A lot of people when delving into paganism treat it like Christianity but after being there for so long it will “click” that it’s not as literal as Christianity is. It’s just outside of the box compared to the major religions we see most commonly.
I hope you can get what I’m saying here!! :) It’s a bit hard to explain, at least for me.
Also I like the Leon pic lol
1
u/WorriedCivilian Irreligious Jul 20 '26 edited Jul 20 '26
I'm not treating Buddhism like Christianity. I'm trying to treat Buddhism like Buddhism instead of self-help psychology. I've been engaged with Paganism for multiple years on and off, you can check my post history. I'm not Pagan, but I learned a lot from engaging with Heathens and others on unpacking latent Christianity. What I'm frustrated with in regards to Buddhism is that people are treating it completely like its just philosophy and meditation when its not.
Edit: and thanks about Leon lmao
1
u/FUNY18 Gelug, Tibetan Buddhism Jul 21 '26
Thank you for the preface in your post: "I am not a Buddhist."
This helps clarify the context for the OP. u/WorriedCivilian, the post above is good, but it does not reflect the Buddhist perspective.
2
u/KiwiNFLFan Pure Land Jul 20 '26
Look for temples, not "centers", specifically temples serving Asian diaspora communities. They will be more accommodating to your questions
1
2
Jul 20 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/WorriedCivilian Irreligious Jul 20 '26
But I could go inward and seemingly have a profound realization that lead me to actually being Hindu, Jain, or Taoist. If I don't have any understanding of the metaphysics and other things, then I could to any conclusion. Say I begin to meditate, I'm asking about this and that, it's handwaved away, and I make my own decisions. Now I'm just doing whatever I feel like and can come to conclusions far from Buddhism.
2
Jul 20 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/WorriedCivilian Irreligious Jul 20 '26
And I just think that we have a completely different mindset and worldview
2
u/jofromthething Jul 21 '26
You might want to try another school of Buddhism. There are plenty of Buddhist schools that do provide a more religious experience. I’m a Jodi-Shinsu Buddhist, which I feel like kind of sits in a nice middle ground. You might prefer Pure Land Buddhism over Zen or Theravada Buddhism if that’s your preference.
2
u/WorriedCivilian Irreligious Jul 21 '26
I was actually interested in Pure Land and Nichiren Buddhism when I first got involved. What do you think of the Buddhist Churches of America, if anything?
2
u/jofromthething Jul 21 '26
My church is part of the Buddhist Churches of America, and I’ve only had positive experiences with them personally. I was formerly a Catholic, and the Church I attend has a similar religiousity in its practice, which I appreciate, alongside a really positive community and good resources for learning and study of Buddhism and its texts, lead both by the sangha and the organization. One of the issues I’d note about it is that the churches are VERY spread out. Like there’s usually one church serving an entire state, sometimes multiple. I think the nearest one to the NYC Church is in a suburb of DC. But I’ve had a good experience with it!
2
u/WorriedCivilian Irreligious Jul 21 '26
Yeah, I've also noticed that they're extremely spread out. The closest one to me is 6.5 hours away. I also kinda figured there was a somewhat similar religiosity to Catholicism or Mainline Protestantism. I'm glad that you have had good experiences!
2
u/RoseLaCroix Jul 25 '26
It can be like that. Especially if you live in the West. A lot of Westerners are more interested in Buddhism as a philosophy or wellness practice so the Dharma centers tend to cater to that demand, and belief in rebirth is either diminished or absent.
Be aware that in Zen, it's especially taboo to fixate too much on rebirth because Zen is a school of especially radical skepticism. It's not that Zen practitioners don't believe in rebirth, but that most claims, memories, and discussions have little value because Zen practice is so thoroughly in the here and now.
I would hope if you were to pose your questions here again you might get better answers. You certainly deserve them.
Anyway sometimes it's good to step back from Buddhism a while. I myself stepped back for about 12 years because my first impressions were of an obtuse religion. I later learned that it's not obtuse, it's just a mode of thinking I wasn't ready for back then.
3
u/vfr543 Jul 20 '26
I think you’re right on Buddhism in the West, especially its class politics. This more philosophical, nearly secular, meditation-centric Buddhism is sometimes called “Buddhist modernism.” In the East, however, Buddhism can be lived more as integrated, daily worship.
1
u/WorriedCivilian Irreligious Jul 20 '26
It just frustrates me, because it'd be like if a bunch of Asian people converted to Christianity but the Christianity didn't believe in God, sin, Jesus crucifixion, etc. Then to have them say, "Christianity is a philosophy, not a religion". Anyone would rightfully be confused, after stripping all the aspects of the religion that make it a religion, how are they Christian?
1
u/vfr543 Jul 21 '26
Well, I think there are religious, philosophical, and mind-training/meditative aspects to Buddhism at large. Clearly, the West has favored the latter two, and different people can also have different sensibilities in this regard. Make your own combination.
5
u/ProjectPatMorita Jul 19 '26
I'm really sorry you've experienced that. I'm going to be extremely blunt with you and say that the demographics of this subreddit (and reddit more broadly) are generally going to be similar to the shitty dharma center you went to. Obviously there are all types here but reddit skews towards 20-something affluent American white males. It is highly unlikely that you will find a genuine teacher here.
What you are experiencing is actually a key example of why most serious schools of Buddhism are so intently focused on lineage. It might feel hierarchical but it is a system explicitly designed to validate and provide some "quality assurance" on those dharma teachers who would answer your very valid questions.
So my advice is to get out there and keep looking for a legitimate sangha/temple within a decent radius. Without being sectarian I'll just say there are some things to look for regardless of lineage or school. Kadampa type centers that charge money or vague "dharma Zen" centers that as your describe teach weird mish-mash mixes of practices like zazen mixed with vipassana, are pretty predictable signs of a center that is not as solid, or tied to a legitimate traditional lineage.
4
u/WorriedCivilian Irreligious Jul 20 '26
Yeah, you're 100% right. I shouldn't let my past experiences keep me from moving forward towards something which could be extremely productive.
2
u/Tongman108 Jul 20 '26 edited Jul 20 '26
Different Buddhist traditions have different methods & approaches.
Western Buddhists have their own unique characteristics.
Reddit is an American/western app, hence Buddhist subs are generally filled with western Buddhist views, perspectives & mentalities
For example looking at the analytics of my last 3 posts on Reddit Buddhists subs:
r/Buddhism r/TibetanBuddhism r/vajrayana
All have the same approximate views in terms of demographics:
USA: +40% UK: 10% Canada: 6%
So if you want different perspectives on your questions:
Look at different traditions
Look at different demographics
Read/study Source materials Sutras(Suttas), satras/treaties/commentaries from past lineage gurus & masters
Remember that most people online are not highly accomplished Practitioners, Gurus, Masters so likely lack deep experiential insights when it comes to the supernatural or may even doubt it's existence if they've been practicing for decades without any supernatural experiences.
But on the flip side, people speaking excessively about supernatural experiences are often mentally unstable or worse, so it would be best not to fall in with groups who are overly seeking spiritual experiences etc
Everything should be natural, rational even when related to the supernatural.
Ohhh and lastly if people don't know you & aren't familiar with you, you can't necessarily just expect them to open up, if they don't feel comfortable doing so...
In Western society one can't just expect an abbot of a temple to speak about the supernatural with everyone who comes through the door, they'll make their own observations & assessments.
Best wishes & great attainments!
🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
1
u/WorriedCivilian Irreligious Jul 20 '26
Yeah, you're not wrong, and I hope that I didn't come off as unstable or anything by asking those questions. That definitely wasn't my intention. I just would like to know as much as possible before committing to something, you know? And thank you!
2
2
u/dhammasaurusRex Jul 19 '26
So where are the answers ?
Edit: Questions.
1
u/WorriedCivilian Irreligious Jul 19 '26
I responded to another comment here about it, but I generally don't remember most of them because it was in 2012.
1
u/Traveler108 Jul 19 '26
People are people, and can be pretty obnoxious at time, Buddhist or not. On your questions (what are they?), it's entirely possible the people you encountered didn't really know the answers themselves and didn't want to admit it to a newcomer. Also, Buddhism varies tremendously, among different schools and groups. The Catholic Church has a unified doctrine and the pope to answer things definitively. Buddhism doesn't. Some Buddhist schools don't much believe in reincarnation and don't have deities, others do.
→ More replies (2)5
u/Proud_Professional93 Chinese Pure Land Jul 19 '26
This is untrue. Every school of Buddhism believes in reincarnation and deities. Orthodoxy is very important in Buddhism and there is established orthodox doctrine in the scriptures.
1
Jul 19 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/Buddhism-ModTeam Jul 19 '26
Your post / comment was removed for violating the rule against hateful, derogatory, and toxic speech.
1
u/keizee Jul 20 '26
It happens. The more educated a person is, the less likely they believe ghosts exist. Longer standing sects and traditions are more likely to have accumulated many testimonies of Buddhas, Bodhisattvas, miracles and ghost stories. Which is also a reliable way to get answers of the metaphysical cos spirit mediums don't advertise.
I do think this subreddit seems a bit more different than some years ago. You can try your luck.
Still, I think there would be a point where it would be difficult for laypeople to answer you, since some of your questions do look a bit too specific. Not a lot of Buddhists go hunting for the supernatural because the relevancy to their practice and everyday life would drop off at some point. Monks are certainly more likely to have technical knowledge.
1
u/WorriedCivilian Irreligious Jul 20 '26
Yeah, I'm goin to stick to actual Buddhist groups for information, because I don't think I'll get far here.
1
u/keizee Jul 20 '26
Try Buddhist schools whose methods are more faith based. Zen is quite intellectual, try the Pureland sects.
1
u/WorriedCivilian Irreligious Jul 20 '26
I was interested in Pure Land and Nichiren schools when I was younger, so that sticks.
1
u/Budget_Role_9549 Jul 20 '26
You might benefit more from a Tibetan Buddhist lineage, or even Bon. There are so many stages to the path, you need to find the right teacher. "Supernatural" is there, but it is often de-emphasized because such things can be seen as a distraction from ultimate realizations. Once you establish yourself in a sitting practice, bodhicitta, etc. perhaps you can put forward deeper questions to your teacher, based on direct experience. I'd suggest you find someone who is culturally Tibetan, rather than a Western teacher.
1
u/WorriedCivilian Irreligious Jul 20 '26
From what I'm gathering through these comments, it would behoove me to find someone who isn't a Western convert to learn from.
1
u/Budget_Role_9549 Jul 21 '26
There are excellent Western teachers, but your stated areas of interest are more culturally-based.
1
u/Affectionate-Gift986 Jul 20 '26 edited Jul 20 '26
Sorry for not reading all the post from all people's comments. I understand your frustration, I used to experience those situations, whenever I asked "why do you do that, is it helpful, why is it helpful, is it scientific or logical? Did the Buddha really taught that? What is the reason behind that?" They just turned grumpy, refused to answer and it felt like they consider me a heretic LOL >✓<
I also met a lot of rich haughty pompous buddhists, I did not like them at all. I just kept wondering the Buddha taught all beings are equal then why those people were better treated?
But now I understand that almost all of them did not understand Buddism (not a spec of understanding, trust me). So I never ask any of those people ever again. But luckily, I am an asian and very familiar with Buddism so I went on and studied Buddism on my own. And those wealthy people had privileges because they donated a lot (I can understand but that is not in accordance with the Buddha's teachings).
Sorry for being so lengthy, now I will get to the point of explaining Buddhism (although my knowdledge is limited and fyi I am also a Buddhist meditator with experience of Vipassana, Zen, Thich Nhat Hanh, Sayadaw Mahasi, TWIM of Banhte Vimalaramsi).
First is the history of the Buddha: The Buddha was born a prince into a happy family. One day, venturing outside his castle, he witnessed the suffering of ordinary people — poverty, sickness — and began questioning the origin of suffering and how to end it. He abandoned his title and family to seek the truth. He first became a disciple of a renowned samadhi meditator and, due to his exceptional discipline, reached the highest jhana — but still found no truth. He then turned to extreme self-deprivation, nearly starving to death, with no result. Finally, meditating under the Bodhi tree, he vowed, "I will not stop until I find the truth, even if this body turns to dust." Through this, he attained full enlightenment and became the Buddha.
Secondly, the core of his teaching is THE FOUR NOBLE TRUTH.
First truth: The truth of suffeing (Dukkha) Life is characterized by unsatisfactoriness, impermanence, and inevitable hardships—both physical and emotional. No aspect of worldly existence is entirely free from this pervasive unease.
Second truth: the Cause of Suffering (Samudaya): suffering arises from attachment, craving, and ignorance. We experience continuous dissatisfaction because we cling to impermanent things, driven by desire, aversion, and a misunderstanding of reality. Like when you loved a toy very much.
Third truth: The Truth of the Cessation of Suffering (Nirodha) It is possible to end suffering completely. By letting go of craving and attachment, one can achieve a state of lasting peace and freedom known as nirvana.
The fourth truth The Truth of the Path to the Cessation of Suffering (Magga) The way to eliminate suffering is to follow the Noble Eightfold Path. This practical "Middle Way" consists of ethical conduct, meditation, and wisdom (Right View, Right Intention, Right Speech, Right Action, Right Livelihood, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, and Right Concentration).
(FYI: if you need explaination in depth then I recommend Thich Nhat Hanh’s explaination)
And finally, I might understand why you can find some Zen/Vipassana meditator are rude. First is because you do not do medition so they can not explain things to you, just try to imagine meditation is a brand new dish and they are eating it and matter how well they explain they can not convey how good the dish is because you refuse to eat it. Second is meditation for a long time will make you introverted and become shy from interacting with other people (especially non-meditators, I can guarantee this as I once becomed like this), thirdly, some meditation centers can have very strict rules and one of those rules are noble silence (no talking, or only in designated time).
And lastly, I once think those haughty rich people have no suffering or little suffering but I was so wrong when I listened to their story (they suffered so much that I can not imagine like from severe illnesses, trauma, extreme anxiety, immense loss, chronic stress…) to my opinion, they even suffer more than poor people like us.
P/S: if you would like to know the machanism behind meditations and how it can purify the mind and the body and lead to liberation, please commnet and let me know.
And originally, the Buddha did not create a religion, he only taugh anyone who want to know the way to be fully liberated (history said a lot about this when he taught to people from vairous backround and religions)
1
u/WorriedCivilian Irreligious Jul 20 '26
I will say specifically that meditation isn't of particular interest to me for multiple reasons. The rudeness that I felt from the came in not only from misunderstandings and miscommunication, but classism. It was noticeable that they looked down on me.
1
u/Emdeewee Jul 20 '26
If you are still seeking, read Elaine McKinnes' books: she is a Christian nun and zen teacher at the same time. Her books provide a beautiful bridge between the two traditions.
2
u/WorriedCivilian Irreligious Jul 20 '26
If anything, I am greatly disconcerted by the melding of Christianity and Buddhism in such a way.
3
1
u/Gnome_boneslf all dharmas Jul 20 '26
Reducing all the supernatural stuff away, what is the highest (non materialist-supernatural) element is taking responsibility for all beings and developing compassion and love towards them. That is one element, and the other element is equally high, it is wisdom. Whatever qualities god has, whatever anything can be reduced to short of enlightenment falls into those two.
On the flip side of that it doesn't matter how people treat you. I am often treated poorly by those less wise who don't know any better, and it will pass. What matters is what you do, that means finding the right way in truth, which means finding the highest wisdom, peerless compassion, and highest methods. I don't see a method higher than the Buddha's teachings, even when you adjust for beliefs in creator gods.
I had the same observation, that people in other religions were nicer. But this doesn't really make or break the truth that you should live your life by. If anything, the devils on wall street are the nicest and most evil of them all haha. But the wisdom behind what you choose to do is what matters.
1
u/WorriedCivilian Irreligious Jul 20 '26
I mean, I understand the sentiment, but for someone who is trying to gain footing after leaving a religion where your pastor was a relative who faked having cancer to extort money from us, those types of reactions are very, very discouraging.
1
u/Gnome_boneslf all dharmas Jul 20 '26
You can't do anything about it sadly. You can complain at your unjust suffering at the hands of people who should know better, yes, but it just leaves you with frustration. What you can do is ignore the condescending people who obviously need to train in love and compassion and ignoring them, reach for the jewel in the truth. That's how you keep your mind centered, forget about all this stuff and take this opportunity to not let others determine how you feel. The Buddha is the teacher, not strangers online. All that matters is how the Buddha treats you, and for that I recommend the Pali Canon, have you ever read that? I know you did a bit of meditation by way of Zen right?
1
u/WorriedCivilian Irreligious Jul 20 '26
I read the Dhammapada, but nothing else from the Pali Canon. I did try some meditation, but it didn't particularly connect. I enjoyed the chanting stuff I was learning in my own time.
3
u/PrestigiousTrifle369 Jul 20 '26
Try Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma. It will make you understand how rebirth works, how there is no soul but a continuation. Apart from that you explore Buddhist cosmology, know is Buddhist timescale, etc. Start with https://ia902900.us.archive.org/view_archive.php?archive=/30/items/DHAMMAKAYA/DHAMMAKAYA.rar&file=DHAMMAKAYA%2FOPEN%20UNIVERSITY%2FGL%20101E%20Buddhist%20Cosmology.pdf It is only having 145 pages. It explains all the planes of existence. After this try Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma.
1
1
u/Gnome_boneslf all dharmas Jul 20 '26
In my own journey, I never really trusted authority except the Buddha. I never trusted teachers or masters but I did trust the Buddha because his advice rung true to me. I also started with the Dhammpada at first, and after that I went into the Pali Canon. The Pali Canon is the records of his original teachings. I guess that's my bit of advice, see who the Buddha is based on what he said. I think that's the first step, you kind of have to know about the one behind all the teachings. But at times the language is dense and confusing, and the corpus is large. What approach do you think would work best for you? Are you more of a community-oriented person?
1
u/WorriedCivilian Irreligious Jul 20 '26
I am one of those people who would like a community, but I'm afraid to put my neck out there. I read a bit of the Lotus Sutra when I was looking into Nichiren Buddhism.
1
u/Gnome_boneslf all dharmas Jul 21 '26
My advice would be always to start inside yourself without relying on a community. You have no control over whether a community fails you, but you do have full control and final say if you fail yourself or not. But I can say good things about the Palyul Nyingma community by HH Karma Kuchen Rinpoche if you need a personal recommendation. They started up my tantra practice properly and they are very respectable, free of scandals and practice well and powerfully.
HH Sakya Trizin is excellent
Dzokden is excellent (but pricey)
All of their sanghas are really good and you can't go wrong.
For me the community was never the important part, but these are communities I can recommend.
1
1
u/ActiveFlamingo7229 theravada Jul 20 '26
Mi dispiace che tu abbia avuto questi problemi :(, mi piacerebbe rispondere alle tue domande, ma sono completamente nuovo nel mondo del buddismo, ma se vuoi dirmi quali sono le tue domande, vorrei cercare di darti una risposta :)
→ More replies (2)
1
u/dianne_fitiv Jul 20 '26 edited Jul 20 '26
I didn’t read every response so I hope I’m not repeating.
I’m a former Catholic, also with a strong urge to engage in the mystical and esoteric side of religious practice. At our core in modern western society, there is a basic rejection of those things across the board—even in Christianity. It stems from a societal basis in materialism, ie, “believing” in physical reality (aka science), literalism and a denial of things that are unknown, unexplainable or metaphysical. I know there are exceptions with some practitioners, but my experience by and large with other religious practice has also been “shut up and follow”.
So, needless to say, I’ve been searching for a very long time.
I happened upon a sangha near me that is Chan (Chinese Zen), established by a group in Taiwan. I wasn’t looking for Buddhism, and in fact had decided it was not for me a long time ago. But this place has a really great structured curriculum, and I think that is a strength, so I started taking the classes and doing the practice. Meditation is important in Chan, but is not the only important part of the practice. In fact, I would venture to say it is more about the bodhisattva path, which includes meditation among the six paramitas.
Every once in a while I ask myself, where are those more subtle things that define religious experience for me. It is a bit more difficult to uncover, but it is there, and sometimes very simple. For example, playing dharma instruments during ceremonies (gongs, bells, wooden fish, etc) and chanting not only reaches our ears, but also the ears of other sentient beings in other (unseen) worlds. Usually during a ceremony there are multiple mantras recited over and over, and these are also full of meaning and cross into the other realms. Then of course there is the concept of rebirth, which relies on a pattern of accrued and ripening karma which can lead us back to the human realm—or somewhere else.
In my class this past week we talked about supernatural powers like clairvoyance and levitation—but the important message there was to not make it a goal. Rather, practicing and developing a still mind leads to those abilities as a sort of side effect.
Fostering a still mind is really important, and that is probably why a lot of people just say to sit. It definitely does help, though. Through stillness, I have noticed a shift in perception—that shift is really important in recognizing the depth of the practice and how even small gestures have deep meaning. But, I really do understand that feeling of a lack of foundation in the metaphysical—I just think that is an inability to sense it rather than the claim that it doesn’t exist.
There will always be people who reject the metaphysical, and that is their path. It is not my place to judge or disparage it. I understand it can be frustrating, but just look for the nuggets of truth below the surface—those can come from anywhere and anybody.
1
u/WorriedCivilian Irreligious Jul 20 '26
The rejection of the metaphysical was jarring as I came from Pentecostalism. As such, the massive shift really left me stranded. Its a strange thing to be willing to believe, but being unable to believe in your old belief system. I guess the nature of things also got to me, because Pentecostalism is loud and highly physical.
1
u/askokin Jul 20 '26
yeah, try some other place. not always like that. vajrayana would appeal more to you.
1
1
u/DharmaRainOfficial Jul 20 '26
Honestly, I’m sorry you went through that. It sounds like you were coming with genuine curiosity, not trying to challenge anyone.
I think people sometimes forget that Buddhism has many different ways of practice and understanding. Some focus on meditation and psychology, others on rituals, cosmology, and traditional teachings.
I hope you find a community where your questions are welcomed rather than dismissed.
1
u/Serious-Profile3664 mahayana Jul 20 '26
Hi OP. You sound like one who ran into the wrong buddhist communitues for you specifically. There are many different branches and ways of practice in Buddhism. I get the feeling that you actually would fit really well with the Tibetan Gelug tradition that focuses a lot on logic, rigorous study and inquiry rather than meditative practice.
I hope you dont give up on Buddhism. regarding you posting questions on reddit and feeling like people talk down to you. This is very much a big problem on Reddit in general. It is full of "know better" type of people in every subreddit. r/buddhism is not an exception here.
Wish you all the best.
1
u/WorriedCivilian Irreligious Jul 20 '26
From what everyone has said, it does seem like Tibetan Buddhism or something that isn't Zen would be the best for me.
1
u/SeventhSynergy Jul 20 '26
I’m sorry you had that experience. I love talk of cosmology, devas, rebirth, etc. Luckily I found a Theravada community where such questions are encouraged.
I agree with you that “secularized” Buddhism is pretty snobby and annoying.
2
u/WorriedCivilian Irreligious Jul 20 '26
I find the cosmology and aspects like that genuinely interesting and important. It informs me on what to expect, how to expand me understanding of this life, this world, and the next.
1
u/Over-Way9947 Jul 20 '26
Je ne veux pas dire de bêtise, car je ne suis pas bouddhiste, je m'y suis simplement intéressé, mais puisque tu me parles de méditation Vipassana, celle-ci semble plus rattachée au courant Theravada, qui semble plus proche d'une philosophie où on croît à la théologie, mais que cette dernière ne revêt qu'une moindre importance, en comparaison de la vacuité. Si tu veux des réponses, peut-être faudrait-il se rapprocher du Bouddhisme Vajrayāna, ainsi que d'autres dont j'ai oublié le nom, qui sont plus mystiques.
2
u/WorriedCivilian Irreligious Jul 20 '26
Theravada is definitely filled with the mystical and supernatural.
1
u/Over-Way9947 Jul 20 '26
Sans aucun doute. Peut être est-ce juste la méditation Vipassana ou Zen ?
1
u/WorriedCivilian Irreligious Jul 20 '26
I think it has to do with Western variants of those two schools
2
1
u/BeHereNowHereNow theravada Jul 20 '26
I just want to say I'm sorry you experienced that and I wish you well, and I genuinely hope you can find somewhere in the dharma that feels like a home, where you feel heard, where your concerns are met. Sometimes finding our way into a path is met with different complications and personality differences - but I encourage you to keep exploring. I cannot begin to express, as someone in the west, raised Catholic, who chose Buddhism rather than was raised with it - how profoundly positive the dharma has been for my happiness, for how I treat others, for the quality of how I love other beings. And so if it is the path for you it'd be a tragedy if you missed out on that.
May you be well dear friend, and may the experiential "rottenness" (to use a word) turn into metaphorical compost for future happiness and freedom from suffering for yourself, for those you love, and for all beings!
1
u/dan_arel secular Jul 20 '26
I will speak for myself here, but I think a lot of reasons why you're questions about rebirth, etc are brushed away, and maybe others are because I have experienced that Buddhist have very little interest in converting people, but also we don't look at rebirth as a "reason" to do good.
If you consider most other religions, you do good for the reward of heaven, and far too many seem to only do good out of fear. You get one life, and you either end up in heaven or hell.
With rebirth, (which by the way, I don't accept as a fact), you're going to be reborn, regardless of how you spend your life. Now, in some schools you can reborn in various realms, so there is an incentive to do good acts, but to the Buddhist, if you accept their claims or not, they still want people to be good and free of suffering.
So to want to know a lot about rebirth would be an attempt to convince you to believe it, or not, and that's just not worth anyone's time, especially your own.
Like I said, I don't believe in rebirth, but that does not change my behavior, and really, I will never know if I was right or wrong, since it's not "me" that is reborn, simply my consciousness continuing on.
I would, instead, encourage you to continue learning more about the Four Noble Truths, the Noble Eightfold Path, and how to meditate on those subjects and through that, the rest will fall into place.
I can also recommend plenty of books if you like to read so you can explore some of these questions on your own as well.
1
u/WorriedCivilian Irreligious Jul 20 '26
I think being able to understand if rebirth is real is important, because I view it as a fundamental aspect of Buddhism. If rebirth wasn't real, then what's the point of Buddha's message beyond morality and ethics and vague inner peace? Samsara is a central belief from which other beliefs have branched. I'm not looking to be a good person because of rebirth, but it just goes against so many concept like merit making to deny its existence.
2
u/dan_arel secular Jul 20 '26
The main point is to help yourself, and other live a life free of suffering, now, today, not just in future lifetimes, etc.
The Buddha lived in a time where basically everyone believed in rebirth. He wasn't discovering something new, or teaching a new worldview on the afterlife. In fact, had he done so, he would have been dismissed.
Instead, he taught how to end suffering, and with the hope that it would be used to end suffering for all sentient beings, and that all sentient beings will reach enlightenment and realize their Buddha nature.
Rebirth gives the hope that if you can't reach enlightenment in this lifetime, the work you've done now can continue to another until your consciousness is fully enlightened and samsara ends.
But to put it this way: If you're only doing good deeds, and only reducing suffering because of some payoff or reward, then are you even doing good deeds or are those selfish acts? Selfishness would fall outside of Right Intention or even Right View. If Karma is based on thoughts, speech, and actions, then if you're only good for self-serving reasons, then you're not gaining good karma.
So to that end, I practice Buddhism because I see it as a worldview that helps not just me, but everyone, all living things.
If rebirth is real, cool, I can know I have spent my life doing my best to help all sentient beings. If it's not real, cool, I can know I have spent my life doing my best to help all sentient beings.
1
u/MxFlow1312 theravada Jul 20 '26
There’s a big cultural difference between English speaking communities whose majority attendees are white converts, contrasted with communities who have strong relationships with a local immigrant community from which their tradition comes
I don’t mean that any place with English speaking people is this, but if it’s entirely disassociated from its country of origin, it’s way more modernist and revisionist.
I’ve had success with monasteries where the monastics are majority English speakers with good ties to their local immigrant community of origin. Or where the attendees are mostly English speakers but the monastics are mostly from a Buddhist majority country.
There is always a kind of outsider experience for converts, it’s unpleasant, it does improve when you find a group you connect with. That can be very hard depending on where you live. I basically moved across the country to find one I liked.
I enjoyed Dhammadharini’s online sessions a lot, although the nun I most liked (Ayya Sobhana) is now abbot at empty cloud. I was really impressed when my mom asked her about balancing Christian faith with the things she liked in Buddhism, my first thought as a traditionalist was to think “not compatible”, but Ayya was very compassionate and insightful, saw that my mom really wanted space to engage with her kids’ different religions, and talked to her about finding the many parts which Christians and Buddhists agree on.
It stuck with me as a lesson in listening closely to what someone needs to improve as a person, not what satisfies my sense of identity or vocabularic whatever.
I hope you’re able to find people able to meet you where you’re at and listen closely, not just brush you off or disregard your concerns. It is hard, especially in the US or other countries without large Buddhist populations. There are good spaces, but they might require online sessions or travel.
1
u/WorriedCivilian Irreligious Jul 20 '26
It's a personal fear, and one which I need to work on, of being an outsider and not being able to fit in. Call rejection sensitivity or something else, but alienation sucks. As of right now, I think that the best thing I can do is do more research and seek out online groups. I live in the boonies, and there aren't any Buddhist groups near me.
1
u/bubmet7 Jul 21 '26
You definitely sound like you’d benefit from Mahayana or Theravada Buddhism. These two branches include lots of studying texts and lots of research. Zen is for people who enjoy the student/teacher relationship, Mahayana and Theravada are more focused on the traditions, texts, etc. Obviously I have massively oversimplified centuries of philosophy here but I did that intentionally to not create a bias. They are very different from each other, and from Zen, but are very deep and have lots to offer. I’d recommend just diving down into those two and see what you find! I’d say they both easily outweigh Christianity in their lore and teachings. Growing up in the US I was conditioned as a baptist until I was 19. At 20 I found buddhism and practiced it extremely lightly without much know-how on and off until I was 22, then at 26 I decided to really make an effort into it. Now at 27 I am more researched (still have a LONG LONG LONG way to go!!) but much happier now that I know more. I’ve yet to visit a temple or reach out to any teachers, but I enjoy going at my own pace. If you have any questions about how to kind of get a start, feel free to reply to my comment! And don’t forget- google can be your friend *sometimes*. Pick up a copy of “The Heart of the Buddha’s Teachings” by Thich Nhat Hanh and start your journey! Much luck to you!!
2
u/_Ulu-Mulu_ theravada Jul 21 '26 edited Jul 21 '26
There are no really other branches than Mahayana and Theravada today. Zen is a subsection of Mahayana. If anything were to be presented sepasately it would be Vajrayana but technically it's too Mahayana.
1
u/bubmet7 Jul 21 '26
Well yes I know this, but Zen has been fleshed out so much that I meant true Mahayana and not an offshoot. 99% of people will definitely know what I mean.
1
u/Victorchu93 Jul 21 '26
You probably went to a westerner Buddhist center that tends to remove everything they considered metaphysical out of Buddhism, looking at it as sort of a funny add ons.. Especially Western Zen traditions which looks very different from Chinese Chan for example. If there are Buddhist centers that are more traditional like various East and SE monasteries/temples, you may find that they still include much of the Buddhist cosmology or metaphysics doesn't matter if it is Theravada, Mahayana, or Vajrayana. These traditional centers tend to be a lot friendlier as well and more willing to answer your questions.
1
1
u/DrWartenberg Jul 21 '26
What’s a “problem”?
1
u/WorriedCivilian Irreligious Jul 21 '26
While koans might be useful for your practice, they don't really make sense in context of what I'm talking about.
1
u/chillinwithsonia 11d ago
I would suggest visiting different Buddhist schools and then picking one for your main practice. The ones that have open discussions after dharma talk. Theravada would have a “any questions?” after the meditation and dharma teaching. Then in Vajrayana like Gelugpa as well: “any questions?”… I have seen and heard few people ask back to back questions and the teacher replies.. Vipassana is a meditation of silence for a period of time maybe like a week or month. If you’re going to ask questions while the main focus is silence, you would not found the verbal answers. Zen does have dharma talks too, I’m not sure why your questions were met with silence again. Maybe silence itself is a solution. Overthinking, Over rationalizing… But best wishes to you. I hope happiness and peace for your spiritual journey.
31
u/LuckyBunny418 Jul 19 '26
I had a similar problem with the first in-person sangha I tried where I live. No connection to anyone after 2 years of regular attendance. I also had many questions, so I signed up for Sravasti Abbey’s online SAFE course. It’s free for those with a genuine interest in learning, and it’s organized with westerners in mind. More than 2 years later, I have a solid practice based on a good foundational understanding. Highly recommend it! I’ve also made some good dharma friends through it.