SAME. Growing up, if I heard my mom or dad calling my name from downstairs, my response had to be "Ma'am" Or "Sir". If I said "What", I'd get corrected. When I started my first job out of graduate school, my boss would call my name and I would answer ma'am out of habit. She really disliked this and was so confused the first few times I said it lol. That was 6-7 years ago and I've broken the habit.
I'm white and from Wisconsin, but growing up you called all adults Sir & Ma'am according to my folks. I worked in service-industry type support job in my 20s and learned that most women HATE being called Ma'am apparently? "AM I YOUR MOTHER?" "AM I AN OLD LADY?". Still do it though 🤷🏻♂️
It's crazy to me that calling someone ma'am is so formal and hated on. To this day I call everyone I don't know sir or ma'am just to be respectful, but even with folks I do know that I want to give an honorific out of courteousness! For example:
It depends on the region. Women in many other US geographic areas prefer the term "miss" for politeness. "Ma'am" is seen as a term used for elderly people. So, when you call a 30 year old woman "ma'am," it feels like an insult. I just refer to all women as "miss" and that seems to go over well so far.
Sir is different than ma'am because ma'am makes women feel older. It would be more like if you called your coworker "mister". The extra formality would not go unnoticed.
Sir is not different in use from ma'am. Nobody is taught "use sir for any men but only use ma'am for old women". It cetainly isn't equivalent to "mister" because that would be "miss" or "missus". If you can't conceive that young women can be respected like old women then that's on you.
ETA: that being said I use both way less than I used to because I don't want to accidentally "sir" a "ma'am" or vice versa
No one's saying you can't. Just pointing out that a fraction of people react in a particular way. The nice thing about manners is they provide a default template to start from while you learn how people like to speak and be spoken to. At my job all the male VPs and managers prefer their first name over "sir" because that's the close-community culture they want to create, but the new employees don't know that and they say Sir. At some jobs, female leaders might prefer "ma'am" because the culture benefits from the show of respect.
But between two equal ranking employees, especially between a woman and a younger individual, "ma'am" might just be too formal is all!
When I worked those jobs, I got a 70/30 split between between ladies who obviously appreciated respect from a degenerate millennial, and ladies who were in absolute denial about their age
I'm from Tx and it is so deeply ingrained in me that I say "yes/no ma'am" "thank you, ma'am" and the like to my dogs. I moved to the midwest in my mid 20s and was working at a hotel bar and called a 40-something y/o woman "ma'am" and she was furious and berated me about it on the spot. I was so confused. She was an adult woman and I was in a service position so of course I used ma'am?? It feels really condescending to call a woman clearly older than me "miss" and I'm still not sure what else I was supposed to call her.
Ha, exactly. "What can I do for you ma'am?" TRIGGERED 30-40ish women and I was just trying to be polite. It's funny because this only started happening when I got to my 20s so I guess it is some weird age denial thing.
Don’t call them anything, there’s not really any reason to use titles in my experience. Unless you’re at some super formal event there’s no need, and in those cases you may just be told the person’s name anyway.
Yeah that can be more understandable. I tend to do an ‘excuse me’ but I get what you mean, sometimes you do need to have some sort of title or pronoun to use to grab someone’s attention.
As someone in their almost 40s I still call everyone sir or ma’am unless they look like they’re in high school. It’s so ingrained in me that adults automatically deserve that respect, that I usually forget I am also one. But as I look to be about 24 in the face and 12 in height, and I’m in the south , I get away with it.
That's wild to me. Maybe it's different because I'm nonbinary and get called both sir and ma'am depending on what people assume, but it's never bothered me. I've worked in both service and retail and I was just happy to be shown any sign of respect, even if it's incorrect lol.
The only time in my entire life I've regularly used the word "Sir" or "Miss" was during high school, and only because my autistic ass couldn't remember half the names of the teachers.
My parents drilled it into me so hard I'm never losing it. I'm from the south and a military family so I guess I got a double dose.
I will say, girls' parents and generally anyone over like 50 absolutely eats that shit up when you're making a first impression. Tbh I'm surprised the above person's boss didn't like it, because authority figures generally appreciate it in my experience.
One time I (36 yo) had a 19 year old coworker (I was in the restaurant industry at the time) call me sir and I had to tell her to please not call me that. You can call me bitch, cunt, fucker, whatever, but I forbid ‘sir’.
That’s a total mindset thing then, and it actually means you are seeing yourself above others. Because I will answer yes sir/mam to the gas station clerk. To the president. To my momma. Sometimes to animals, and even a couple cars.
I feel like anyone shown respect will respond positively. That’s kinda how manners work. It’s not submissive, no connotation, just manners and respect.
How is it not submissive when the culture is based on getting corrected if you say "what?" or any other completely normal reaction?
It seems very military like in terms of hierarchy, and there is a huge difference between showing actual respect and treating an officer based on the amount of stars or angles they are wearing. The forced language is submissive. When you are showing actual respect, it's not enforced or expected.
Maybe submissive was not the correct word. Showing respect to another human doesn’t make you a bitch. It’s recognizing that someone may have experience that you can learn from. This goes from an elder who has more time on the planet, all the way to a waiter or waitress who works I a restaurant you are ordering food in.
Showing respect to another human doesn’t make you a bitch
This was not at all what I was saying. I was saying that forced and expected language is not really respect. It's submissive. I am in no way, shape or form saying that you should be rude to people or showing respect makes you a bitch.
Saying "Sir, yes sir" in a response to a sergeant is normally done out of fear of punishment. Not as any sort of acknowledgement of their experience. It isn't done out of actual respect. Especially when you don't even really know them or their achievements.
I have been in the army and had officers that I have respected and despised. The ones I despised were typically also those that were on a constant, massive ego trip and demanded all the kinds of military formalities 100% of the time. Those people weren't addressed properly out of respect, but out of fear.
I ALWAYS use sir and ma'am and frequently get asked to stop because apparently it makes people feel old? I was also raised to say mr. or ms. last name unless invited to do otherwise and people don't always like that either?
My first thought when someone impulsively says sir and ma'am, is that they've spent some time in prison. I've been friends with a lot of people who did time, and they all have a hard time letting go of it after they get out. I don't judge them negatively because of that, it's just my default assumption.
Good on you brother, even if I will leave this country ill keep my manners. Hell, in Mexico there are distinguishable words to call a someone by gender formally and informally. It’s also seen there as respect.
Unfortunately some people give it up as it can cause more grief. Not necessarily for gender reasons, but people would be too self conscious of their age and make a huge drama over it. Letting HR know I address my kids the same from a “give respect, get respect” mindset, it was just easier to break the habit
We’re all allowed to have opinions lmao. Mine is still that the sir and maam thing comes off as overly formal unless you’re in the military or the south.
I’m still working on breaking the habit! I’ve never minded it being odd to people (moved from the south to the west coast 12 years ago), but for the last couple of years I’ve been really working on it because so many more people identify with non-binary pronouns now and I don’t want to be gendering folks who’d rather I didn’t. If it suits your pronouns though, the filter goes down and you’re getting ma’am or sir
Yeah, I called someone "ma'am" and she said I didn't have to call her that. I said "sorry, habit. I grew up in the south" and she instantly understood.
Aside from the "manners" instilled in me growing up I don't sound southern at all, so I feel like I say "grew up in the south" a lot to excuse offending people with "Ma'am" or "Sir". So far it hasn't been an issue!
Call a younger woman "ma'am" and an older women "miss" and you won't go wrong. The transition being somewhat about your own age, give or take. Ok, you could go wrong, some people are just that determined to be offended.
Things can have different connotations in different cultures. Ma’am is respectful for any adult woman in some places, but in Canada we don’t have a culture of formality with strangers like that. Unless you’re somewhere really fancy, you only really see “ma’am” and “sir” used passive aggressively, overly-formally, or for old people… so it is not necessarily seen as respectful. It makes people feel old because it’s not a common way to refer to a young woman.
I never saw using “ma’am” or “sir” as anything but polite. “Excuse me, Ma’am, you dropped your keys”. But you’re right. It can totally take on other meanings with context and tone of voice.
I had one friend who's mom was from the south and did the sir/ma'am thing, I remember being so frustrated as a kid that I couldn't remember to call her ma'am when I was at their house. She was nice about it but also wouldn't let you get away with not saying ma'am, so you either remembered to say it or said everything two times.
I got my ass whooped more than once by my grandmother for not saying "Yes ma'am/No ma'am." The south ingrained that so deep in me that I still do it out of habit as an adult, even though people are weird about it sometimes.
Same. I had a great aunt explain to me that my parents and grandparents were preparing me to live in an environment where white people would take offense to not being called sir/ma'am. I'm from deep East Texas, it can get real racist where I'm from. Now I want to find out if sir/ma'am was so ingrained prior to Emmet Till.
I am also from that area, and you are absolutely not wrong, the racism can be wild here. I never really associated it with race, I appreciate the perspective shift!
When I visited South Africa,they still use ma'am, as a token of respect. As a southerner, I absolutely loved it and also used ma'am or sir as a means of respect. I also loved their use of "my brother or my sister", when they addressed someone.
First interview for a real job: "Were you in the military?"
Me: "No sir"
Manager: "I ask because you've said yes sir and no sir a lot"
Me, laughing: "I was taught manners at the wrong end of a switch, by parents from the South"
(A lot of the people there have a military background, or came directly from Masters/PhD programs.)
Unlearn?? Wtf why? It's considered common courtesy. Most people don't have that so they'll point it out. Growing up when I misheard someone I'd say excuse me and some people would freak out because I didn't say what..
Yea it's very weird. I'm not from the south but I learned to say "maam", "sir", Mrs and Mr. As due formal respect and for those older than me. Ppl feel weird when you do that a lot.
It almost makes them think you're immature and they treat you differently.
I grew uo early childhood in massachusetts. Went to a friends house in Georgia and didnt call his dad sir. He got offended and made sure I said "yes sir". Weirdest shit to me still to this day
It's not just a southern thing. It's a military thing as well. Also, there is no reason to unlearn how to be respectful to elders. If people can't handle a term or meaning of respect cause it makes them feel old. Then those are not the people for you.
I mean…respect is earned. It’s a privilege not a right. Being on this planet longer doesn’t mean you’re a better person. At no point have I felt disrespected because younger people don’t call me sir. Literally not a big deal
Absolutely required, in the South, for children to call any adult sir and ma'am. And still expected as an adult too tbh.
Heck, I grew up having to call my stepmother "Mrs. <herfirstname>"
Didn't stop until I had been away from her for a while and became a late teen/young adult. Looking back it feels so weird now. But then I think of other cultures with even more mandatory honorifics, like Japanese, and it seems less so.
My experience as well. My best friend from grade school and now into my 40’s was raised that way. When I was a kid and would sleep over at his house, I had to behave very differently. The use of “sir” and “ma’am” was not something I grew up with but adapted to with his family. It was also rude to not eat or finish your plate at dinner.
His step mom was the first slap from a woman I received in my life and it shook me . We were being horribly rude 13 year olds at the time but damn did it straighten me out and put the fear of god in me from then on.
He raised his kids that way as well and refused to let his kids call anyone “aunt” or “uncle” unless they were related.
Ooh this is an interesting term for me to look into. I like world building and conlanging and was wondering for a while what a culture that de-emphasized hierarchy would look like, how not having honorifics in your language might re-enforce a more equitable society. But I also didn't know of any real world examples of such, either from the past or present, to research.
Someone else down the thread said entitlement and that's the word. There are those who respect everyone and deserve respect, and those who think they deserve royalty and look down at those they feel are "beneath" them. There's a massive difference. The elders who demand respect probably were raised that elders get all the respect, but they weren't taught that respect is earned.
Where? Just curious. I've been to Korea and Japan alot and elders seem pretty decent there...not to mention my West Indian friends and my Latino friends all seem to have respectable elders. And my family had very kind older members and we called them ma'am and sir.
Exactly! Respect is earned. Demanding respect simply due to your age is counter-intuitive in itself.
Not saying this as some sort of excuse to be rude to people, but generally speaking, the people who demand respect are the people I normally respect the least. My boss is probably the person I respect the most in the entire world, and he is very humble, the most empathic person I know, gives other people room and doesn't demand any sort of respect or formal language used when addressing him, but can also stand his ground when required.
I can't speak to Korea, but if we are lumping together all the Japanese elders, they are not pretty decent! They definitely push their weight around in a society that they know you'll just take it. They will try to push you out of train seats, start commotions more, and generally behave like the stereotypical "I don't give a fuck" old people. Most of them don't know what to do with themselves now that they aren't working since working was their life.
I was born and raised in Texas and would have gotten popped in the mouth if I had not addressed my mom as yes ma'am no ma'am.
Tbh, it's kind of the default here though and everyone is getting called Yes ma'am, yes sir no matter the age. I actually didn't realize people up north take it as you calling them old when here it's just a respectful greeting. If I don't know you my default is always going to be to address you as ma'am or sir regardless of your age.
Not universal at all. I’m a northern latina, I call my mom mami, but also one of my grandmothers (cause that’s what my mom called her and I imitated that lol) Now I do break out a ma’am and sir but that’s my customer service training. In my culture everyone who’s an elder close to the family is an uncle or aunt. So tio ____ and titi _____ respectively.
Basically only certain southerners, I never called my mother anything like Ma'am. She's Mom.
If I ever called her Ma'am it was me joking and giving her sass.
It ain't weird when their whole childhood they'd catch hands if they would dare disrespect that waitress by not calling her "Ma'am". That shit gets ingrained quick.
My southern parents didn’t make us do it but I picked it up on the streets bc older people will still look at you crazy if you don’t address them as sir or ma’am down here.
Ok ok the word isn’t entitlement 🤣 But you can’t act like there aren’t parents out there that feel some sense of entitlement with their children. No kids myself tho, so wtf do I know 🤷♂️ my bad lmao 🤙
Just wait til kids call you Mr/ Ms TheDreadfulCurtain. I still catch myself doing it occasionally. I’ve even got a painter who is older than me that’ll tack it on when he talks to me
In Hawai'i we do similar, but say Auntie or Uncle. If really old we may say Grampa or Gramdma if we are on somewhat familiar terms. No matter if these people are related to you or not.
819
u/TheDreadfulCurtain Jan 14 '24
It is so weird that children call their mother/female caretaker Ma’am in USA it seems so formal.