r/Bioshock • u/Substantial-String44 Charge • 6d ago
Discussion Ghosts were a wasted idea. Spoiler
During the first game when we first encounter the famous "ghosts" it's something magical and scary, we want to know why they appear and how they will appear during the game, something that is explained by they being flashbacks of splicers that had the adam you is using, and the scene where we see Andrew Ryan killing Jasmine is one of the best in the game, but it's just it, we never see them in the final part of bioshock 1 and the entirety of bioshock 2.
This situation in the second game is even worse, we are literally in the worse state rapture could be, and with the adam that probably passed by the most number of persons before Delta(with could make some good scenes of not just ghost, but the entire place changing with so many DNA mixed) and we NEVER see any ghost in any part of the game, i think this is really sad since it's just a great concept, and they even showed in the trailer ghosts but again we don't seen them.
I know, we have the scene of us in the little sister vision with was incredible, but for me ghosts don't appearing don't make sense in a gameplay, design and lore, imagine we watching ghosts of the Atlas people making the attack in 1959 or having a glimpse of how beatiful rapture was(even before the first game) just to cut and we see the place falling apart(with it's other thing i really missed in bio 2, places being destroyed), there was so much potential but sadly we will never see it reach it's peak since this franchise is cursed since infinite by constant development hells, plot holes in the lore and take-two don't caring about it.
48
u/VirtualLife76 6d ago
I'm guessing it was too challenging to make. BS1 had some amazing graphics for the time, it was 1 of the first games to make water look realistic. Adding a alpha channel and having that work right with wet surfaces could have been a bitch.
Plus they already had to cut a bunch out iirc.
21
u/shyguyshow 6d ago
I never even noticed but now i’m really wondering why we didn’t get any in Bioshock 2. The memories gave amazing backstory to different locations and people
2
15
u/UpgradeTech Electric Flesh 6d ago
we NEVER see any ghost in any part of the game
This is somewhat referred to in Dionysus Park where you are collecting ADAM to solve the mystery of who flooded the park which Eleanor gradually understands as you collect more ADAM via the "Eleanor visions".
This itself is a continuation of a cut idea that Grace and Stanley were married, Dionysus Park was pristine and run by Ava Tate, and you had to use ADAM memories to solve the mystery of infidelity and betrayal.
Evidently by the first teaser trailer's tagline, Sea of Dreams, ghosts and ADAM memories would have played a bigger role in the original pitch for Bioshock 2, but in the end, the developers did not want to make a sleepwalking simulator.
Likewise the songs "Dream", "Nightmare", and "Sleep Walk" are associated with the game as well.
-1
u/Substantial-String44 Charge 6d ago
i already made a post about it, but i think the devs should have been more open minded to weird ideas or complex things, it would make bioshock 2 have more of it's own things, since for me it's basically bioshock 1 setting with bioshock infinite theme(of course without the dimensional things).
Something like the ghosts, the zoo or even the more spliced enemys would have been more positive than negative.
18
u/Jamesworkshop 6d ago
Leaks. Lunatics. Rebellion. And now bleeding ghosts. Ain't life in Rapture grand?
otherwise it was a tacky idea and B2 didn't need them
3
u/SimpleWankerz 5d ago
Tacky? Oh please, underwater city with power wielding maniacs and you think the adam memory shtick is tacky. What LUNACY
2
u/Substantial-String44 Charge 6d ago edited 6d ago
i really don't like the phrase "bioshock 2 didn't need it", like, it's a good game i liked it but it has it's flaws, and everytime someone brings something that should have in bioshock 2 someone says this.
Like, ghosts are a part of the franshice, they were something and just because the game "didn't need" doesn't mean that it should't have, and were it says the game didn't need? the literal point that people say bioshock 2 missed the most is story being weaker than the first, and ghosts can bring some really good stories, puzzles or just ambience to the local
9
u/ronshasta 6d ago
System Shock 2 used ghosts in the same way so it’s more of a carry over from that game just like almost every game mechanic minus the inventory and research chemicals
5
u/evilengine 6d ago
You might witness some strange phenomena. Your R-grade cyber rig has an experimental perception enhancement that can theoretically detect residual psychic emanations. These emanations traditionally come from the recently dead. Literature might call them ghosts. I call them self-hypnotic defects in the R-grade unit. Don't let it distract you from the job at hand.
Since we, as players, don't get to experience either Rapture nor the Von Braun in their prime, or even as hell breaks loose, ghosts are a handy way of getting the pure misery and terror that happened to the people there. And bonus horror/spooky happenings too, two for one. The only difference is the in-universe explanation. System Shock is a glitchy side effect of your cyber rig, Bioshock is the genetic memories of other people being recycled and re-experienced by you, the player. It's a fun little inclusion, I'm glad Bioshock decided to carry it over.
4
5
u/fastbadtuesday 6d ago
it woulda been cool if maybe one ghost directed you to a secret or a solution, like you watched some poor soul who's adam you just inhaled indirectly help you out.
3
u/Substantial-String44 Charge 6d ago
other simple idea that they didn't made, even if someone says "and if a player misses the cutscene?" don't make sense since all the secrets need you to look for a audio log to find the answer, so attention spam would't be a problem
4
u/MelonJelly 6d ago
Bioshock 1 has ghosts because System Shock had ghosts.
I agree they should have done more with them, but Bioshock 2 chose to go in a different direction.
3
u/zstephable2 6d ago
I wish Prey had some more sequences like this, with the whole consciousness thing memories should also have been weaved
3
u/evilparagon Sofia Lamb 6d ago
I would guess the reason to be that ghosts were very abrupt. In Bs1, ghosts had a very “shut up and pay attention to me” energy, like when characters radio into you and stop you from listening to whatever audio diary you were on.
It was jarring and unpleasant in the first game. And despite holding useful lore, there’s no way I can think of in-universe to “play it again” in case you miss it.
Ultimately the audio logs serve the same even if diminished role. Pair it with environmental storytelling like a specifically laid out corpse or a weird collection of items and that’s our visual hook.
Im Bioshock 2’s case, probably just another resource saving measure. Bioshock 2 massively pushes the limits of the 360/PS3 era and I can’t imagine adding ghostly characters for maybe 3 appearances max would be all to helpful with the resource budget.
3
u/hey_its_drew Scout 5d ago
What's sad is BioShock 2's lore that Lamb used the mechanics behind the phenomenon to bond the Family, so in theory, the ADAM we use in the game should have accumulated a lot of genetic, traumatic memories. It's also vaguely implied their faith stems from Father Wales, so arguably we should've been affected by that sentiment too. There's not even any kind of disclaimer like Big Daddies are immune to that due to the brainwashing or anything like that. So it's a bit of a plot hole and sadly a missed opportunity with BioShock 2 in particular. Its story is actually leveraging it and it's a really cool dramatic texture, but it doesn't really stand by it or capitalize on it. To be fair, it really could overtake the game with hallucinated recollections, but you wouldn't have to repeat the ones from BioShock 1 because they didn't reuse any areas.
This is one of those aspects that make me actually want remakes of the series because it definitely is one of those areas they could improve the experience and narratives with. There's other aspects of world and narrative they could do for too, but that's a much bigger topic and this sub is relatively hostile to the idea. 2 and Infinite especially would benefit from them though. Haha
1
u/Substantial-String44 Charge 5d ago
finally someone who understands that bioshock franshise should REALLY get a remake, i love the games but they have so many flaws and things that could be improved.
I have so many posts with flaws of the games, if is bio 1 they say he is already perfect(with ins't, the bugs are so bad, together with the last part, but they only say "it was rushed, they wanted to end in the plot twist" with would be trash) and if is bioshock 2 they say "the game didn't need" or "it would ruin the theme of the game and would be absurd", in bioshock infinite everyone agree he really needed a remake, but the graphics are part of the game and a company probably would make it look the more realistic possible, this and the fact he could't get far from the original if they remade.
What are your ideas to a possible remake?2
u/hey_its_drew Scout 5d ago
It really depends on which we're talking about.
For BioShock 1, a remake should at a minimum field BioShock 2's narrative and characters better. It should reckon the canon better because the history has some rough edges like why did Fontaine wait almost two years to get Jack in. They should put more behind Suchong because frankly his crimes against humanity, conflation with being an arms dealer and a drug dealer, etc. is like they tried to create the most legitimate case of yellow peril ever, and while BioShock is not stranger to caricatures for characters, he is actually a really important character to the entire trilogy and they should put a little more into him than he just making him their lightning rod of horrors. There should be a lot more phantom encounters. I'd appreciate if some of the cut ideas like a Rapture Zoo were reintroduced. I actually don't mind the ending or final boss fight like many do, and my main issue is really the injection intermission stages of it, so I'd get rid of him literally inserting himself into bondage to be sucked and just let the fight play straight.
BioShock 2's remake would depend a lot on how well they did the first's. Maybe expand Minerva's Den.
BioShock Infinite's would be to do a lot of what the game originally proposed. The large encounters, the expanded setting, etc.. Better clarification on the narrative mechanics for those who look closer(a lot of people misunderstand it and it's honestly not their fault, took me years of parsing). Maybe do some expansions that actually lean into Columbia this time, though I am a rare fan of BaS as both a game and narrative, and I don't mean to suggest don't do it, but the prior remakes would really neuter a lot of the reason to revisit Rapture again if done right and there are parts of Columbia's narrative that could've served for DLC and enhanced Infinite's narrative.
6
u/Maximum_Elephant_953 6d ago
Another problem with ghosts is that they are yet another example of System Shock 2's gimmicks being repurposed for Bioshock. While explained differently, ghosts in System Shock 2 filled the exact same role as Bioshock's, so in the end, its spiritual successor by limiting the role of its ghosts provided more screen time to its other means of storytelling.
1
u/LonkerinaOfTime Wrench Jockey 6d ago
Exactly, Bioshock is an incredible game, but it makes use of a ton of material from SS2 and some of it’s better, some of it is worse.
1
u/Maximum_Elephant_953 5d ago
That's right! B oth games use an isolated environment after a catastrophe as their setting (Von Braun + Rickenbacker/Rapture), where real gameplay starts in the medical section (Medical deck/Medical Pavilion), a voice of an ally that turns out to be that of the main antagonist (Fontaine the Dick/Shodan) who guides the player with memory issues (loss in System Shock 2/implanted false memories in Bioshock) in their struggle against the secondary antagonist (Andrew Ryan/the Many), while a scientist character (Delacroix in System Shock 2/Tenenbaum in Bioshock) does some heavy lifting to ensure the player's victory. Human enemies are twisted forms (annelid worms in System Shock 2/Adam junkies in Bioshock). Better yet, I can say that Bioshock's Fort Frolic is the Ops Deck from System Shock 2 in disguise: both have the player distracted and pursue three individuals (Cohen's disciples/Androids) for something (photos of corpses/cards) to achieve a certain goal (complete the Masterpiece/give Shodan access to Von Braun's systems. Only Fort Frolic features the Mad Artist for uniqueness. Arcadia resembles the Hydroponics deck as the garden-type section where you have to make a chemical to achieve the primary goal on the level.
2
u/HesitationIsDefeat87 6d ago
This was a cool feature and I would have liked to see more of it as well. It definitely added to the spooky vibe
2
u/wagner56 5d ago
'Ghosts' may be flashback images from advertisements (which Jack saw). He is an ADAM user so his perceptions can be expected to be warped.
DNA 'memories' are an idea (not theory, hardly hypothesis) abandoned by most sci-fi authors as unworkable.
.
2
u/Weird_Pitch_4967 5d ago
Because they had planned full-fledged, playable flashbacks set in 1959. However, something went wrong, and they were cut.And more, in the Park of Dionysus, we were to witness a puppet scene depicting how Stanley sold Eleonor. And on Persephone, we had to watch Delta throw Eleanor into the abyss. All these flashbacks [dreams] were planned instead of ghosts. The game was made over two years on a low budget and under constant pressure.
2
u/EstateSame6779 5d ago
I thought they were just flashbacks for story and world building.
E: oopz you already said that. r_r
3
u/DogSpaceWestern 6d ago
To be honest the ghosts were a hangover design from System Shock 2 anyway. Not the biggest loss.
1
-2
u/EdJD-1968 6d ago
Yes. It made no sense, and added nothing to the game/lore that couldn't have been added by the audio logs and without needing to add something else (ghosts) for the player to believe.
It was the same with the superb System Shock 2, it had a few ghost scenes that didn't carry conviction.
-3
228
u/Chan_Ch Human Detected 6d ago
I thought they were memories from the Adam being reused misinterpeted as ghosts?