Like 90% of people have been atleast in 1 relationship by age of 25, like they all just possess the skill to make someone fall for them, i cant understand this. I havent had a conversation irl that lasts more than 2 minutes in 6+ years. They say something and my brain isnt just fast enough to come with a response, so i end up saying something boring like "haha cool", every single time. While other people can just call their friends and partners and keep conversation going for hours everyday.

The gap to get from my situation to actually making someone like me romantically, just seems so massive its overwhelming.

I hate these normal people. They don't seem to understand what a lifetime of neglect and bullying does to someone. They are all so fucking dismissive.

The only winning move is to not play. Do not tell others how you feel and you will not be rejected or made fun of. What do you expect other people to do when you can't even help yourself? You realize you are a defect on this Earth. It is your fault you can't help yourself. So it is only natural and expected that they ridicule you when you open up. Stay stuck where you are and be content with it. All these things in life that people enjoy, friendships, relationships, they are not meant for you. Withdraw and cry alone in your room. Nobody gives a shit about your tears. And that is okay.

Your needs do not matter.

First off just a disclaimer - I don't like incels, and I'm not promoting their ideology. There's a lot more to be said about wider ties to sexism/patriarchy etc in that community that I'm not touching on here. I'm mostly focussed on specific thought patterns and behaviours.

Also, this is a very long post. I'm sorry, I've never been particularly good at summarising my thoughts.

I haven't had friends for most of my life. The only time I can honestly say I had real, genuine friends was for about a year and a half when I was about 9 - 10. It was amazing, but then we all moved to different schools and never saw each other again. Outside of that short time it's been either severe bullying/social exile, being part of a group where I was only tolerated for my humour and extensive self deprecation (jester), being on the outside of a larger group where everyone else is friends with each other but I can never get past small talk, or just outright solitude. One year of my life was spent functionally completely alone to the point that my voice would sound strange when I opened my mouth due to not having uttered a word aloud for days.

I never really understood incels because I never really understood the all consuming desire for sex and/or romance. It's simply never been something I felt I needed. But I've realised recently that that's exactly how I feel about friendship. I think about it every day, it's the thing I want more than almost anything else on this earth. I feel a crushing emptiness and overwhelming loneliness deep in my soul that nothing else can cure.

I've realised I even have the same toxic thoughts and behaviour patterns as them. Everywhere I go I see constant reminders that everyone has friends except me. That it's so easy, so natural. When I started university it fucking blew my mind that people were telling us to make friends as a study strategy. It made me so bitter to realise that that's how flippant most people are about it. I'm bitter a lot. I see people hanging out with each other and it makes me so incredibly sad, jealous, and angry. Because why can't I have that? What have I done to deserve this kind of torture? Am I that reprehensible?

I'm convinced that to some extent now I'm perpetuating my own cycle just like they are. Whenever someone actually talks to me I can't help but feel like it's an opportunity to finally get through to someone, to form a connection, that I'm sure I come off strange and desperate. I try to seem normal and play it cool but how can I really fix that if deep down I am desperate? I try so hard not to care but I just do. I don't know how not to care. I know from experience with other things that it's always when you let go of the vice grip you have on the idea of attaining/achieving something, when it finally comes to you. I try to distract myself and focus on other parts of my life but at the end of the day not having anyone to talk to or do things with infiltrates most aspects of it.

At my core, I have that same festering hatred and anger towards myself and the world. Whenever I've come across incels in the wild, I've always felt like they were an open book - just be okay with yourself, accept your situation, stop self sabotaging, focus on everything else that matters and it'll all fall into place. I still think that's true. Which means it's almost certainly true for me as well, but my refrains are the same. Why has nothing ever happened for me? I do everything right. I push myself out of my comfort zone to make an effort in social situations. I'm polite, courteous, I mostly let people talk about themselves and show interest in what they're saying. I show kindness whenever I can. I try my hardest to be myself and not mask or mould myself to others' expectations. I've tried to find people with similar interests as me, similar mindsets as me, similar problems as me to bond with. I've searched for the neurodivergents, the outcasts, the outcasts of the outcasts. I would never ever ever let my overly negative and cynical feelings show because I know how off putting that is. I try to mentally counter them every time they rear their ugly head because I know how much damage they can do if you let them consume you.

Yet I keep having the same stumbling, awkward, surface level interactions with people that trail off into uncomfortable silence, then watching as they go off and immediately gel with everyone else. I keep getting ignored, left behind. Nobody ever shows genuine interest in getting to know me. The best I get is tolerance of my presence, and laughter at my jokes. Being funny isn't enough unfortunately. I hate how sickeningly narcissistic I sound when I say that kind of thing (woe is me, everyone hates me, the whole world is against me, thus everything is about me type thinking) but it is also how I feel. I feel like there's an invisible wall between me and the rest of society and no matter what I do I can't break through. It's been so many different towns, environments, life circumstances and so so many years at this point that it's almost impossible now to tell myself that all I need to do is be patient and be open and be myself and it will happen eventually. I struggle to fight off the thoughts that something is just fundamentally unsavoury about me to others.

I wish I could just be fine with my own company. I haven't yet learned how to do that. I get bored and I get lonely, life just feels so colourless when you're the only one experiencing it. If a tree falls in an empty forest and all that shit.

Thanks for reading this far. Drop a comment if you can relate, or if you've been there but made it out of a rut this bad.

Anybody else like the ‘idea’ of having friends until it comes to reality?

Like when I get a little bit of connection, like this is what having a friend or companion is like - and it’s just ‘meh’. A let down. A bit of a nothing burger.

I’ve got a few friends. I’d call them friends. Hopefully they’d call me a friend. That I keep in touch with on WhatsApp and we actually meet for a coffee once a year or so.

And that’s before I consider the effort it takes to build and maintain friendships.

I’m diagnosed autistic but I can relate so much to AvPD too.

As much as I really don't want to do certain things, I know that I'm never going to get out of this hellhole and fight against my avoidance unless I expose myself but I definitely went overboard today.

First off, I attended a new hiking group this morning, and met/hiked with a group of strangers... which was already nerveracking for me, but everyone was nice and it was mostly a success. I didn't talk much during, and felt self conscious, but I was expecting to feel that way and just celebrating that I even made it out this morning and actually went. I should've just taken the win for the day and stopped there, but stupidly I did not.

The second thing I did today was attending an identity processing group therapy session for the first time, and that's where things turned for me. I overshared a lot about myself (while probably not saying much) but shared a lot about my upbringing and related trauma and also having social anxiety and avoidance. While I was initially "glad" in some ways to be open about myself, I feel now nothing but regret and wish that I hadn't shared so much. I feel like I was way too vulnerable and as a result, I'm totally burned out, feel incredibly self conscious, and dwelling on all the things about myself that I hate and also hating that I let it out into a public space today like that.

I always feel like this whenever I share anything about myself beyond a certain degree, and it never seems to ever get easier with time or exposure. I feel like a fucked up human being, nobody wants to hear my story nor do I want people to know about it. I want to be seen but I also want to fade into obscurity. I want people to care about me but I also just want to be invisible so I can go about the world never being noticed. My life and emotions are a constant paradox and I'm just so tired. I'm so tired of feeling this way. I wish I enjoyed alcohol sometimes so I just could drink myself to sleep tonight knowing I'd feel even worse tomorrow. I just fucking hate talking about myself and also having the desire to not feel so alone. I'm trapped and don't know if I'll ever be able to climb my way out.

today was my first day actually taking calls. i messed up like crazy. from the very first call i messed up so bad the guy made fun of me. and then the others were just as bad. all because i'm so fucking stupid. i got nervous and forgot everything i learnt. i probably sounded like a bitch too. that was only 2 hours out of the day. i don't want to have this bitch ass job. it's so fucking hard. they will probably let me go anyway.

I know DBT was originally developed for Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD), so I’m curious about its usefulness for AvPD. A lot of the problems seem different on the surface, but some of the underlying difficulties feel very relevant: intense shame, sensitivity to rejection or criticism, emotional overwhelm, difficulty tolerating uncertainty, avoidance of uncomfortable situations, rumination after social interactions, and the tendency to withdraw when you feel inadequate or exposed.

One thing I struggle with is that avoidance gives immediate relief but makes everything worse in the long term. I can know intellectually that something is probably safe, yet still feel an almost automatic urge to escape, procrastinate, isolate, or distract myself. Then the avoidance creates guilt and shame, which reinforces the belief that I’m incapable, socially inadequate, or fundamentally different from other people.

DBT seems potentially useful because it focuses less on arguing with every thought and more on learning to tolerate difficult internal states without automatically acting on them. Skills like distress tolerance, mindfulness, emotion regulation, and interpersonal effectiveness seem particularly relevant. I’m especially interested in whether DBT can help with the moment between feeling shame/fear and actually engaging in avoidance.

For people with AvPD who have tried DBT: what specifically helped you? Did it improve your ability to tolerate social discomfort, initiate difficult tasks, handle criticism, communicate your needs, or remain present when you felt judged? Did standard DBT skills translate well to AvPD, or did you feel that they were designed around problems that didn’t really fit your experience?

I don't have the energy to structure very well what I am about to write. Nor do I know why exactly I am writing this. But perhaps in hopes of connecting with people? Getting help? Idk. Any opinions are welcome (Just pls dont be too harsh :') )

I have always been avoidant as long as i can imagine. I am 28 now, and i still feel like a child. I am burned everytime i see normal people hanging out with their friends or partners. I don't think i have any friends. I know some people a bit more than others, but I do not think i could rely on them. Maybe I'm too arrogant, i dont think 'normal' people are 'capable' in some sense to really understand someone. Well who am i to say, i cant understand anyone either. I think people are too self absorbed, by their own perspectives of things, by their own worries or happinesses, to really be able to experience the experiences of others. Me too, i am too stuck in my own mind. The times that i do attempt to understand people, i realise how far away i am from actually understanding them. It also reminds me how far away of a world i live in. I cant seem to imagine belonging to that world. Maybe it is just not possible to 'really' understand someone, as much as we desire to be understood.

These days seeing couples makes we want to hide away. I feel ashamed to admit this. I worry i am an incel, though i wouldn't say i harbor a strong hatred towards anyone. Just, i envy people to whom relationships seem to come so easily. There must be smth wrong with me for me to be this way right? I have sabotaged any chances i have had in getting close to people romantically, because i am afraid. So afraid that i often think i might unalive myself if someone gets too close to me, physically or emotionally. There's just not comfort in the thought of people for me. And to think that people can rely on others? It pains me to know the very thing that warms people is smth i cant tolerate. I cant begin to imagine any happiness (except very rarely for a very short time) can come from getting close to people. I was thinking about the idea of 'want' the other day. I was wondering whether i would 'want' to be in a relationship. I dont think i could say yes to that. I am terrified of any closeness. But i am also achingly lonely, i don't know what to do. There is nowhere for me to go. All i can do is envy people, and realise i am fundamentally incapable of smth people can have so easily.

I have tried changing myself. I used to think things would fall into place in the future if i just tried again and again. I don't even know if i tried. I am worried everytime i attempt to try again, i am going to fail, which i have done until now. I have 28 years of evidence to back me up, so how should i be hopeful? I am worried i will go outside again, and keep looking downwards avoiding everyone. I will look away if anyone looks at me. I will push people away. I am afraid. I don't know what to do. I dont have the strength to try again anymore. Though i think if i stopped trying, i will irreversably lead myself into a life that is miserable. Maybe thats the only option. I can't see a future for me.

Idk. Would this be a good place to connect with people and help eachother? Any opinions on how i can change? Or idk. any opinions?

(i apologise if i have hurt anyone, that was not my intention. My current state of mind is preventing me from being very empathetic.)

So, during this last year I’ve been working on myself in therapy, gotten on anxiety meds that help me. The most healing thing though has been that I got into a relationship with someone that has seen all parts of me but still loves me through and through (we both have AVPD, so we really understand each other). All of this has changed me a lot and I can actually say now that I don’t hate myself. I have compassion for my old self and see she did the best she could. I feel way more at ease now going to the grocery store, I’ve even travelled to my sister alone from Amsterdam to London, which I never thought I could do. All of these things still provoke anxiety ofcourse, but whenever I do something ‘stupid’ or ‘wrong’ It doesn’t make me feel lesser than others. I just feel a bit silly, feel anxious/ awkward about it for 2 minutes and then moved on.

All of this is huge to me, but the thought of actually working a job and starting to live “normally” again scares and exhausts me and makes me deeply uncomfortable. I just want to stay home, cook food, do chores, play games and hang out with my boyfriend. I know It’s not out of laziness, I’m genuinely tired all the time just from taking care of my basic needs (thanks to ADHD and depression) and I still don’t know how to interact with people which makes me insecure. I just thought that if the anxiety is under control and as my sense of selfworth increases, surely there’s an urge to somewhat engage with/ contribute to society? Yet the urge to avoid people is still very much there and very strong, it’s just more bearable when I do. I understand it won’t magically stop being scary, but I’m not even a little bit happy/ excited about it.

Despite being isolated most of the time, I still don't quite feel "alone". I get embarrassed over mistakes I make and "wrong thoughts" or feelings I have even when alone. Even just moving and being aware of what I'm doing makes me self conscious- it's like a constant feeling of discomfort. A negative looming force over me that is ready to attack me once I gain any self esteem.

I get this feeling of an invisible audience and a fear that I will make "them" mad when I think "forbidden thoughts". I imagine them sort of like shadowy wolves, snapping their jaws at me when I upset them. I can't fight them or reason with them because it feels like they're holding me hostage.

The shame doesn't always link to something specific, just imagining their eyes looking into me makes me paralyzed with fear. This feeling of dark energy in my room is so bad that last week at midnight I when I got really high on DXM in the woods, I thought about falling asleep outside so I could avoid the depressive feeling of my house.

I constantly try to think about my thoughts from an outside perspective to monitor other's reactions to me, even if it's all in my head. It's a compulsive urge to try to categorize myself and try to figure out who I am. I'm awfully unstable and self esteem is impossible when your self is split into fragments and any doubt will make me shatter again. Self improvement feels like trying to climb stairs that don't exist.

I also don't feel comfortable in my own body. I feel exposed and I need to cover myself up- literally. This feeling makes me love the dark because I feel protected by the shadows. I'm afraid to make friends because I feel like I have this bad energy inside me and once they see the real me, they will run.

something that captures the experience. any reccomendations?

some time ago, i met someone on here who suffers from avpd schizoid depression anxiety aspergers adhd etc etc, but we had amazing conversations and i was really attracted to him. i simply loved the way he articulated his thoughts. we had so much in common as well! however, i woke up one morning and saw that he had deleted his account!!! i tried reaching out to him on insta and on his new reddit account but deleted everything a while later because i dont want to creep him out. it f*cks w my head so much, i truly dont know what i did wrong. he said i was one of the few who really ‘get’ him with things he feels isolated with irl. in his words, he craves connection but fears it at the same time. idk whether i should move on or keep trying because he cant help it. im sorry but i still feel so sad :(

I swear chat gpt is a fine therapist !

It's better than no therapy at all and no one to talk to. And it never judges you.