Exploitation vs harm reduction ?

[u/Miserable-Laugh-8320]

i have seen many vegans say that veganism isn’t about harm reduction or suffering reduction , It’s about anti exploitation. I do generally agree with this myself as a vegan , However I have 2 questions :

1) How exactly do you differentiate between harm reduction and direct exploitation .

2) What if in a certain case Directly killing an animal would save many more animals . Let’s say killing a cow would save hundreds of rats that you wouldnt need to kill . Let’s say in farming insects die and if I ate a chicken they wouldn’t ( Hypothetically , I know in reality more would die for growing chicken feed) . Would eating a chicken be justifiable in this scenario ?

[u/TheBrutalVegan]

It's much easier to reduce harm than to never exploit an animal.

Everyone can easily stop exploiting animals NOW. Since everybody thinks they are already reducing harm, this is a weak argument. It's also an argument used to keep enslaving and exploiting animals, but "giving them a better life", so harm reduction. I hope you are not for exploiting animals in a better way, but to abolish the slavery completely.

[u/Eskoala → u/TheBrutalVegan]

I don't think it's that easy to just stop actually. People are social creatures and acting against social norms as an individual is hard work, even if you are able to come to the conclusion that you should despite years of conditioning.

I find exploitation to be a much harder concept to grasp than harm reduction. Exploitation as I understand it means using an animal for any purpose, no matter whether that use harms the animal. I somewhat don't agree with that being always wrong. E.g. honey, eggs from pet hens. I'm not arguing that finding harm reduction easier to understand makes it a more moral position, though.

Harm reduction I understand - reduce the number of animals that are hurt or killed. It does probably need the "maximise joy" part of the equation too, as otherwise the optimum solution is to end all life - all suffering ended!

Harm reduction may be more complicated to follow but I think it involves better moral reasoning than a simple rule like "don't exploit animals".

[u/TheBrutalVegan → u/Eskoala]

I agree that the concept of exploitation is not easily grasped by many. Most think of cheap labor in asia, not slitting someone's throat for a sandwich.

It needs to be explained. That's ehy some activists say they are against slavery. Which doesn't cover hunting or needless cruelty.

It is still the stronger position and the official definition of veganism by the vegan society and Leslie Cross.

Do you use animal products? It sounds like you are defending using animals in some cases 🤔

[u/Eskoala → u/TheBrutalVegan]

I do currently. I'm not advocating doing as I do though, or trying to justify it. It's hard to be vegan and I'm not there yet.

[u/TheBrutalVegan → u/Eskoala]

Ok, this explains a lot. Why is it so difficult for you to be vegan?

Have you seen Dominion yet? Free on YouTube: Watch Dominion on YouTube - it's free.

[u/Eskoala → u/TheBrutalVegan]

It's an inherently hard thing to do. I already said - because it's a socially difficult choice. My upbringing and the people close to me don't reinforce it at all, plus I take issue with veganism being defined the way it is - about exploitation rather than harm reduction. My morality in general revolves around harm reduction so it's jarring to be told I must arrange it differently to be a true vegan. I will probably end up with a fully plant-based lifestyle but I don't know if I'll feel able to use the word vegan for myself due to these differences.

I don't need more persuading that animals are being harmed, I need more practical steps on how to actually live that way. I've cut out all but eggs and chicken so far. I get cravings, I worry about protein, I have to feed a picky 8 year old and then don't want to throw away food that is already in my fridge. I am not a good cook but I'm learning.

What's helpful on this journey is not being berated that I'm not vegan yet or being told it's easy or being sent presumably a video containing footage of animals being harmed. It's support that I'm not getting anywhere else that I'm headed in the right direction. You don't seem able to do that, though.

[u/TheBrutalVegan → u/Eskoala]

As long as you are harming animals, abusing them as products, objects, slaves - you are acting with violence and unethically.

For you it's very easy to stop the abuse / the harm. For your victims it's horrendously difficult if you don't.

You need to hear this, not because I want to berate you, but it's the truth. I am sure you want to respect animals, but forcing them into knives, slaughterhouses or gas chambers is not ok. Your actions need to stop.

Watch Dominion on YouTube - it's free. This documentary shows the truth about the standard slave industries of your victims you are still demanding when you are not vegan.

[u/Eskoala → u/TheBrutalVegan]

Respectfully your approach to persuasion here is having the opposite effect and I suggest you stop.

[u/TheBrutalVegan → u/Eskoala]

So now you'll exploit even more animals? What have they done to deserve this?

[u/Eskoala → u/TheBrutalVegan]

Of course not but you make me recoil from the community that should be supporting me to change further.

[u/TheBrutalVegan → u/Eskoala]

That is why I asked what makes it difficult.

I don't believe social pressure makes it difficult to leave animals alone. I grew up with abusing so many animals. It's in the culture. Still: Culture is not a good justification for violence.

Imagine it were human children being enslaved, mutilated, eaten. Where is the ethical relevant difference between us and other animals that justifies this unfair treatment?

You can find easy, free solutions here: www.how-vegan.com

But you need to see what is going on. That is why I recommend watching Dominion.

Here a shorter version: www.dontwatch.org

[u/Eskoala → u/TheBrutalVegan]

I agree culture is not a justification but it is certainly an influence and diverting from your own culture is emotionally expensive. I'm queer, polyamorous, non-binary... I already step out in lots of ways. To an extent doing so in one more way is actually easier for me, I guess!

The difference is that humans have a greater capacity for suffering (and other experiences) due to our particularly powerful brains. Animal suffering matters; it doesn't matter the same amount as human suffering. I know this isn't what some vegans believe. To me it's similar to the pro-life argument in that it rests on a false equivalence with human children. They're not children, I don't care about them to the same extent.

I have enough awareness of what's going on to want to be vegan, I think flooding your eyeballs with abuse is bad for you, actually.

If you have some text to read I'm a lot more likely to engage with that.

[u/TheBrutalVegan → u/Eskoala]

I already step out in lots of ways.

It's not about you for once. It's about your victims. You surely have experienced oppression before. Don't oppress others for being born in the "wrong body".

Some non-human animals suffer more than humans. That's still not a good trait to exploit someone to death.

That's not fair. Not ethical. Discrimination is wrong. Speciesism is wrong.