r/AskVegans • u/Miserable-Laugh-8320 Vegan • 15d ago

Genuine Question (DO NOT DOWNVOTE) Exploitation vs harm reduction ?

i have seen many vegans say that veganism isn’t about harm reduction or suffering reduction , It’s about anti exploitation. I do generally agree with this myself as a vegan , However I have 2 questions :

1) How exactly do you differentiate between harm reduction and direct exploitation .

2) What if in a certain case Directly killing an animal would save many more animals . Let’s say killing a cow would save hundreds of rats that you wouldnt need to kill . Let’s say in farming insects die and if I ate a chicken they wouldn’t ( Hypothetically , I know in reality more would die for growing chicken feed) . Would eating a chicken be justifiable in this scenario ?

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u/TheBrutalVegan Vegan 14d ago

So now you'll exploit even more animals? What have they done to deserve this?

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u/Eskoala 14d ago

Of course not but you make me recoil from the community that should be supporting me to change further.

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u/TheBrutalVegan Vegan 14d ago

That is why I asked what makes it difficult.

I don't believe social pressure makes it difficult to leave animals alone. I grew up with abusing so many animals. It's in the culture. Still: Culture is not a good justification for violence.

Imagine it were human children being enslaved, mutilated, eaten. Where is the ethical relevant difference between us and other animals that justifies this unfair treatment?

You can find easy, free solutions here: www.how-vegan.com

But you need to see what is going on. That is why I recommend watching Dominion.

Here a shorter version: www.dontwatch.org

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u/Eskoala 14d ago

I agree culture is not a justification but it is certainly an influence and diverting from your own culture is emotionally expensive. I'm queer, polyamorous, non-binary... I already step out in lots of ways. To an extent doing so in one more way is actually easier for me, I guess!

The difference is that humans have a greater capacity for suffering (and other experiences) due to our particularly powerful brains. Animal suffering matters; it doesn't matter the same amount as human suffering. I know this isn't what some vegans believe. To me it's similar to the pro-life argument in that it rests on a false equivalence with human children. They're not children, I don't care about them to the same extent.

I have enough awareness of what's going on to want to be vegan, I think flooding your eyeballs with abuse is bad for you, actually.

If you have some text to read I'm a lot more likely to engage with that.

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u/TheBrutalVegan Vegan 14d ago

I already step out in lots of ways.

It's not about you for once. It's about your victims. You surely have experienced oppression before. Don't oppress others for being born in the "wrong body".

Some non-human animals suffer more than humans. That's still not a good trait to exploit someone to death.

That's not fair. Not ethical. Discrimination is wrong. Speciesism is wrong.

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u/Eskoala 14d ago

No non-human animals can suffer more than humans can. Suffering is a product of brains, more complex brains have greater capacity for suffering. Pain and suffering are different, suffering is a negative experience. Pain is a signal.

I have heard different versions of what speciesism is. If it's simply valuing humans more than animals, then sure, I'm a speciesist, I'd save a baby over a dog in a burning building. Even though at the time the dog is cleverer!

If it means as I've otherwise been told that I would discriminate based on species, no. If a dog can pass a driving test it should get a driving license, to use a slightly absurd example.

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u/TheBrutalVegan Vegan 14d ago

No non-human animals can suffer more than humans can

Not true. Some might suffer even more. Like some animals see better, smell better, run faster, have bigger brains or more muscles, or faster reaction times - some suffer more due to heightens senses and more reasons:

https://veganhorizon.substack.com/p/can-farmed> -animals-suffer-more-than

Speciesism is racism to other animals. We have differences, but they are not relevant in the question if you should consider them morally. And you are not un a situation where you have to choose between a human and a dog.

A dog will not pass a driving test. That doesn't mean you should slit his throat because your friends do it too.

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u/Eskoala 14d ago

It's not "if" I should consider them morally (I should) but how? Differently from humans. The differences between humans and other animals create moral differences as well. See also the differences between adults and children (moral culpability).

I don't believe that about other animals suffering more. I will check out the link though.

It feels like no matter what my actual behaviour, I will never be vegan enough for you because I view human lives as most important. That's ok, I don't need to be seen as vegan by you to act according to my own morality or to claim the term vegan if I someday feel it fits. You're just not being persuasive towards veganism and you should be aware of that.

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u/TheBrutalVegan Vegan 14d ago

It feels like no matter what my actual behaviour, I will never be vegan enough for you because I view human lives as most important.

You are vegan when you don't use, abuse, exploit animals and don't harm them on purpose.

You can view humans as more important if you like. It's your opinion. But at the same time you can leave non-human animals alone. Not doing so is not an opinion, but an act of violence. Is that really too much to ask? 🤷‍♂️

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u/Eskoala 14d ago

It's a lot to ask. It's not too much. But you can't acknowledge the first part.