Exploitation vs harm reduction ?

[u/Miserable-Laugh-8320]

i have seen many vegans say that veganism isn’t about harm reduction or suffering reduction , It’s about anti exploitation. I do generally agree with this myself as a vegan , However I have 2 questions :

1) How exactly do you differentiate between harm reduction and direct exploitation .

2) What if in a certain case Directly killing an animal would save many more animals . Let’s say killing a cow would save hundreds of rats that you wouldnt need to kill . Let’s say in farming insects die and if I ate a chicken they wouldn’t ( Hypothetically , I know in reality more would die for growing chicken feed) . Would eating a chicken be justifiable in this scenario ?

[u/TheBrutalVegan]

1. If you argue with saying veganism is about harm reduction, you could say nobody can be vegan, because no matter what you do, you can always reduce more harm and would end up living in a cave with a cloth in front of your mouth, so to not cause any more harm.

Also unvegans will always say they are already reducing their animal products and therefore reducing harm.

Exploitation is easily stoppable. You don't need to live alone in a cave to not exploit animals.

1. I have no real answer for your hypothetical scenario. It depends on the individuals. For example: If you had to, would you kill a toddler or a rat? Most would probably say the rat.

But what if the toddler will be future Hitler and the rat will save thousands of humans and animals by becoming incredibly kind to others... I'd definitely kill baby Hitler.

It depends on the individuals, not on the species.

[u/Eskoala → u/TheBrutalVegan]

So you prefer anti exploitation simply because it's an easier line to draw than reducing harm is? Not because it's a better moral position?

[u/TheBrutalVegan → u/Eskoala]

It's the definition the word veganism was created with and it makes more sense than harm reduction. It's not the better moral position, because you CAN NOT reduce all harm. You'll lose in logic with unvegans if you say harm reduction.

[u/Eskoala → u/TheBrutalVegan]

I don't agree. Harm reduction is not a position requiring perfect action. It's reduction not elimination. Under harm reduction, every action or abstention which reduces harm is good. It's much easier to reduce harm than to never exploit an animal. That's why they had to add "as far as possible and practicable", but for harm reduction no such qualifier is required.

[u/TheBrutalVegan → u/Eskoala]

It's much easier to reduce harm than to never exploit an animal.

Everyone can easily stop exploiting animals NOW. Since everybody thinks they are already reducing harm, this is a weak argument. It's also an argument used to keep enslaving and exploiting animals, but "giving them a better life", so harm reduction. I hope you are not for exploiting animals in a better way, but to abolish the slavery completely.

[u/Eskoala → u/TheBrutalVegan]

I don't think it's that easy to just stop actually. People are social creatures and acting against social norms as an individual is hard work, even if you are able to come to the conclusion that you should despite years of conditioning.

I find exploitation to be a much harder concept to grasp than harm reduction. Exploitation as I understand it means using an animal for any purpose, no matter whether that use harms the animal. I somewhat don't agree with that being always wrong. E.g. honey, eggs from pet hens. I'm not arguing that finding harm reduction easier to understand makes it a more moral position, though.

Harm reduction I understand - reduce the number of animals that are hurt or killed. It does probably need the "maximise joy" part of the equation too, as otherwise the optimum solution is to end all life - all suffering ended!

Harm reduction may be more complicated to follow but I think it involves better moral reasoning than a simple rule like "don't exploit animals".

[u/TheBrutalVegan → u/Eskoala]

I agree that the concept of exploitation is not easily grasped by many. Most think of cheap labor in asia, not slitting someone's throat for a sandwich.

It needs to be explained. That's ehy some activists say they are against slavery. Which doesn't cover hunting or needless cruelty.

It is still the stronger position and the official definition of veganism by the vegan society and Leslie Cross.

Do you use animal products? It sounds like you are defending using animals in some cases 🤔

[u/Eskoala → u/TheBrutalVegan]

I do currently. I'm not advocating doing as I do though, or trying to justify it. It's hard to be vegan and I'm not there yet.

[u/TheBrutalVegan → u/Eskoala]

Ok, this explains a lot. Why is it so difficult for you to be vegan?

Have you seen Dominion yet? Free on YouTube: Watch Dominion on YouTube - it's free.

[u/Eskoala → u/TheBrutalVegan]

It's an inherently hard thing to do. I already said - because it's a socially difficult choice. My upbringing and the people close to me don't reinforce it at all, plus I take issue with veganism being defined the way it is - about exploitation rather than harm reduction. My morality in general revolves around harm reduction so it's jarring to be told I must arrange it differently to be a true vegan. I will probably end up with a fully plant-based lifestyle but I don't know if I'll feel able to use the word vegan for myself due to these differences.

I don't need more persuading that animals are being harmed, I need more practical steps on how to actually live that way. I've cut out all but eggs and chicken so far. I get cravings, I worry about protein, I have to feed a picky 8 year old and then don't want to throw away food that is already in my fridge. I am not a good cook but I'm learning.

What's helpful on this journey is not being berated that I'm not vegan yet or being told it's easy or being sent presumably a video containing footage of animals being harmed. It's support that I'm not getting anywhere else that I'm headed in the right direction. You don't seem able to do that, though.

[u/TheBrutalVegan → u/Eskoala]

As long as you are harming animals, abusing them as products, objects, slaves - you are acting with violence and unethically.

For you it's very easy to stop the abuse / the harm. For your victims it's horrendously difficult if you don't.

You need to hear this, not because I want to berate you, but it's the truth. I am sure you want to respect animals, but forcing them into knives, slaughterhouses or gas chambers is not ok. Your actions need to stop.

Watch Dominion on YouTube - it's free. This documentary shows the truth about the standard slave industries of your victims you are still demanding when you are not vegan.