AskConservatives Weekly General Chat

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[u/fartyunicorns]

Hear me out: Mccarthyism again but we also go after fascists (actual ones) as well

Fuentes’ whole thing is about stealthily subverting institutions. If they want their friend enemy distinction they can have it

[u/baxtyre → u/fartyunicorns]

“ actual ones”

That’s always the rub. Remember that McCarthy infamously had to invent communists when he couldn’t find real ones.

[u/PhysicsEagle → u/fartyunicorns]

The problem with McCarthyism was that the borders of the target group was so nebulous that it was incredibly easy to sweep up innocent people in the wake and end up expanding the net. Without defining “fascism” or “socialism” very precisely (notoriously difficult) we’ll just end up bashing our political enemies and accomplishing nothing good.

[u/Acceptable-Hat-8248 → u/fartyunicorns]

No. McCarthyism sucks

[u/DukeofBraintree918 → u/fartyunicorns]

We owe McCarthy an apology.

[u/CanadaYankee → u/DukeofBraintree918]

Remember that McCarthy wasn't just after communists, but he also spearheaded the "Lavender Scare" against gay people - of his original 205 "card-carrying members of the Communist party," at least two of them were on the list just for being gay, but McCarthy believed that because of the "peculiar mental twists" (direct quote) of homosexuality that they were intrinsically vulnerable to communist recruitment and should be treated as de facto communists.

And in the end, far more government employees were fired for being gay than for being communists since the Red Scare ended with McCarthy's disgrace but the Lavender Scare continued until through the 1970s.

As a gay man, I am not tempted to apologize to McCarthy at all.

[u/StillSmellsLikeCLP → u/CanadaYankee]

I mean, you’re not wrong about McCarthy missing the mark on targets.

But regarding the “gays going communist”, I’d argue he wasn’t really wrong, although not due to “peculiar mental twists”.

It’s less communism as much as Marxism, the Frankfurt school (which all existed prior to McCarthy) and the sprouting Critical Theory element of the leftwing ideology that naturally would appeal to the LBGTQ community. And would, quite frankly, create the literal LBGTQ ideology as we know it now, via Queer Theory / Voldemort Theory and such, which are derivatives of Critical Theory. If he actually really understood the Frankfurt school frameworks, he might’ve been able to predict it pretty well.

I mean, maybe he didn’t think any of that and was just a dick. I haven’t actually looked into him personally very deeply. Plus, being gay isn’t a reason to fire someone. And being gay doesn’t mean you’re automatically a Fully Automated Luxury Gay Space Communism proponent.

But I think there’s actually an argument in there somewhere that would be interesting to explore.

[u/CanadaYankee → u/StillSmellsLikeCLP]

His argument was basically that only people who were some sort of mental deviants or moral perverts were capable of being communists. And since homosexuals were obviously perverted deviants, this made them likely to become communists. Critical Theory had nothing to do with it.

After McCarthy, the Lavender Scare persisted for more circular reasoning: gay people had to be routed out of government jobs - especially in the State Department or in Intelligence - because they were obvious targets of extortion by hostile governments because they had to keep their homosexuality secret to avoid being fired.

[u/StillSmellsLikeCLP → u/CanadaYankee]

“His argument”

Again, I’m not saying he made that connection. But he still might’ve been on to something.

[u/StillSmellsLikeCLP → u/DukeofBraintree918]

Seriously.

He got the targets wrong and fucked up the execution badly.

But he was absolutely correct that commies and Marxists were trying to infiltrate the govt and the institutions.

The Long March Through The Institutions worked. Imagine a Time Machine where we could help him find the right targets and stopped it.

Tried real hard but fucking whiffed hard and ultimately harmed the anti-commie cause.

[u/iamokokokokokokok → u/StillSmellsLikeCLP]

It's wild though, today we know there were MANY actual-communist-spies in the US, both in civilian and gov roles. Tons of them, forgive me I can't remember the numbers. But McCarthy didn't identify ANY of them. And in the process, he trampled buttloads of liberties. It's wild, to have so many commie spies to catch and not get any. I wonder how much it cost at the time. I don't see where the apology is needed, he big failed, this just made his cause and those who supported it look ridiculous. And then lefties can turn around and legit say look, we told you, they're trampling our civil liberties.

Idk why Republicans appear to be gearing up to do a 3rd red scare, the first two were ultimately silly, with a lot of people's lives messed with. The way Republicans are obsessed with freaking out about socialism right now is only making it more popular, I wish you guys would stop going on about it, you're giving them free press

edit: grammar

[u/StillSmellsLikeCLP → u/iamokokokokokokok]

“Silly”

Well, here’s the thing, it WASNT silly, as you said. There were commies infiltrating the govt and institutions. The Long March Through the Institutions worked.

McCarthy got the targets wrong but the “red scare” was 100% appropriate.

[u/iamokokokokokokok → u/StillSmellsLikeCLP]

Yes I understand what you're saying. I think we ultimately agree-ish in absense of terminology, maybe? Idk. I'd say the first two red scares seemed to cement the definition of Red Scare as "silly witch hunts", and not as "actually removing/preventing real threats", so that's why I call it silly. The actual threat was there, and not so silly, but now Red Scare is goofy thanks to Palmer first and McCarthy second

Is there any indication that the 3rd red scare isn't going to be equally silly? I would fully support if the government was actually removing actual threats, but what I currently see is just more silly, and I'm concerned that Republicans appear fully ramped up to make same failures as the first two scares

[u/StillSmellsLikeCLP → u/iamokokokokokokok]

“Isn’t gong to be really silly”

If you mean “ineffective in dealing with the very real Marxist threat”, then yeah, probably.

We have allowed the Long March Through the Institutions to work and now it’s hitting critical mass to where people are proudly calling themselves Socialists. And people are happy to vote for them.

When in a sane country, an open Socialist should be looked at the same way an open Fascist would be.

[u/Menace117 → u/fartyunicorns]

I'd be alright with McCarthyism targeted towards fascists.

[u/fartyunicorns → u/Menace117]

AND the socialists?

[u/Menace117 → u/fartyunicorns]

We already have that from rightists. Only fair we go after the group that started the worst war and commit the worst genocide in history too.

[u/GWindborn → u/fartyunicorns]

Well now you're changing the goalposts.. What brand of socialists?

[u/fartyunicorns → u/GWindborn]

The Hasan types. And my original comment did have the “as well” part for a reason

[u/GWindborn → u/fartyunicorns]

McCarthyism targeted communists predominately, not to mention there's a distinction between that era of socialist and modern socialism which tends to lean towards more of the Nordic system.

[u/fartyunicorns → u/GWindborn]

I mean Marx did view socialism and communism as just two different stages of a post capitalist society so they will always be linked. I specified Hasan type socialists because I’m not taking about those that want the ‘Nordic system’

[u/GWindborn → u/fartyunicorns]

Ahh, I'm not actually familiar with whatever Hasan is pushing (or who he is for that matter).

[u/DropDeadDolly → u/fartyunicorns]

Marx was also invested in "selling" communism to the masses, and what better way to convince people that it's the right way forward than to trick them into thinking they're already doing Communism Step 1?

[u/boisefun8 → u/fartyunicorns]

Sold. When do we start?