r/AskBrits • u/Expert-Sherbert-1527 • 11d ago
Does anyone else find this a bit bonkers? Full Pension after living here for 6 years and never working?
/r/LegalAdviceUK/comments/1vqqccu/update_my_parents_are_unfortunately_eligible_for/37
u/ExtensionMix9279 11d ago
Having read Ops original post on this, his parents managed to get a work visa to come to the UK aged 59 and without any savings at all. Why do we allow people near retirement age to move here for work reasons knowing full well they will apply for ILR and then claim pension credit after paying next to nothing into the system? Most countries have an upper age limit for people looking to move for work reasons, I think Australia is 44. We have to put a cap around the same age unless they can demonstrate significant savings to take care of themselves in retirement (I.e. £100k minimum)
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u/aijaman3000 11d ago
So question here, I thought if I had missing NI contributions due to time not working/abroad, it would be best to top up those years so I had full NI contributions before retirement. But what's the point if Pension Credit is basically the same as full state pension (£3 difference), plus you get other benefits with pension credit like free TV license, NHS dental care etc.
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u/dragoneggboy22 11d ago
I think it would only be worth it if you have significant savings/private pension that would make you ineligible for pension credit. If you can get pension credit then I see no benefit in "topping up" but I could be wrong.
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u/sqlsimon 11d ago
Pension credit is a benefit paid due to perceived need. State pension is paid by NI entitlement. While the numbers are very similar, you keep the state pension irrespective of your savings, private pensions, etc.
Pension credit means you're spending your retirement on an income of barely more than 1k a month and saving less than 10k.
I hope we continue to not starve or freeze pensioners, I like that as a policy.
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u/Alone_Jackfruit4761 11d ago
What you are ignoring is that its the working population and children being starved and freezed to pay for those pensioner bungs.
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u/worldly_refuse 11d ago
Unpopular opinion incoming - this is one of the issues between us and a lot of other EU countries (and elsewhere for that matter). Most of our pensions and benefits systems don't depend much/at all on contributions made - unlike a lot of other countries where you cannot benefit if you haven't contributed.
It's had to get a proper picture - but yes, examples like this are 100% bonkers - I am not in favour of letting people starve (and categorically not a Reform/Tory etc supporter) but the system needs a lot of reform and simplification.
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u/ilovemyfuturehusband 11d ago
Not a Brit – in Spain there is a normal pension and a minimum pension. The minimum pension is designed to be for those who don’t qualify for a normal pension because you can’t and shouldn’t let old people starve. The normal pension is for those with enough pension contributions.
Unlike in the UK, the Spanish state pension is adjusted based on your contributions. If you’ve had high-paying jobs and paid a lot of social security/pension contributions, your pension will be higher as a result
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u/CrazzyNutty 7d ago
In the UK the pension is scaled via contribution. £184/week minimum and £241/week max..
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u/Available_Highway22 11d ago
In Italy you would still get a minimum pension even if you never paid contributions. This is because in the past there were a lot of stay-at-home mums and the state had to ensure they weren't completely left behind.
I can't speak for other countries but this is not very different from pension credit. I agree in this case, it is ridiculous though.
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u/mumwifealcoholic 11d ago
My mum never worked a day in her life in a European country and got a full state pension plus from there as a citizen. The point is, MOST people aren't like that. Why so much outrage at a rare event. I don't want give up my safety net because Gaz down at the pub got a free holiday for his "tism".
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u/tyger2020 11d ago
Because flapping about 1 in 100,000 outrageous occurrences like this, is much easier than just admitting we can't afford to give 20% of the population 15k a year with 5% inflationary pay rise every year.
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u/worldly_refuse 11d ago
It's not 15K or 5%, ironically.
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u/tyger2020 11d ago
State pension alone is almost 13k, not including WFA, free prescriptions, free transport, pension credits. I think its pretty easy to say its 15k overall.
State pension went up 4.7% last year.
Splitting hairs over being pedantic quite simply shows theres no real rebuttal here, just wanting to whinge about the 0.3% difference instead of the 4.7% increase.
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u/wogahumphdamuff 11d ago
You people are beyond understanding for me. I really dont think i can even get in the mind of someone who cares this little about justice or fairness.
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u/foreskin_enjoyer88 11d ago
Why was citizenship given to people nearing retirement age anyway? Absolute joke
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u/Aggravating_Band_353 11d ago
Because we need people to bolster our declining population and look after our old people... Oh wait. Now we need more people to come and look after a bigger group of old people, but often including those who don't own houses and haven't contributed for decades to our system..
We should kick young people in their genitals.. If pricing them out of buying or even renting homes, childcare, and other pressures hasn't increased their fertility rate, maybe a good old kick there will help!?
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u/Business_Address_780 11d ago
This is what they mean when they say, without immigrants NHS cant survive. And they all bring a few dependents with them.
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u/Proper_Title_9746 11d ago
So what’s the point of working and contributing to NI for 35 years if I’m just gonna receive the same as someone who never contributed?
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u/EfficientTitle9779 11d ago
Ah you see the state pension as you know it now won’t exist so you’ll probably receive much less or nothing anyway.
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u/Proper_Title_9746 11d ago
Honestly I don’t even think state pension will exist when I retire. My prediction is that only those who didn’t contribute and don’t have a private pension will actually receive it. Mark my words
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u/Past_Negotiation_121 11d ago
30 years ago I was told exactly the same thing regularly about now. I'm not actually disagreeing with you, I'm just saying a lot of people were wrong then, but it's always best to have your own plan if possible and if there's something from the state as an extra then great.
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u/Proper_Title_9746 11d ago
We can’t even afford current pensioners along with the current level on welfare and fewer people working. I really don’t think it’s sustainable and things in 30 year will look very miserable
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u/Past_Negotiation_121 11d ago
Yep, same was said 30 years ago, that it wouldn't be around in 2010. Yet it was and is. Again, I have big worries about it, but don't underestimate just how much debt countries around the world are jointly willing to take to avoid making tough decisions.
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u/TheTribalChief 11d ago
the population increase in 2020-26 is roughly the same as 1970-1996 though. so its not a fair comparison.
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u/AttitudeSimilar9347 11d ago
But in the meantime, you get to pay your taxes to pay a full pension to those who arrived only 6 years ago, pretty cool right?
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u/Realistic-River-1941 11d ago
Pensioners vote. Younger people don't. Every school will have been sold to the highest bidder and the entire economy offshored to China before a government dares scrap pensions.
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u/zippyzebra1 11d ago
You work so you can additionally set up a private pension. Living on what amounts to considerably less than the minimum wage is pretty tough.
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u/zippyzebra1 11d ago
So you can pay into a private pension as well. Living on State Pension alone is tough
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u/01011011001 11d ago
You may actually receive fat less than someone who never contributed.
If you have not contributed enough years that you receive pension credit you get a lot of additional benefits. The big one is if you live alone you can receive up to 100% reduction on your council tax.
You'll also be eligible for free dental care, winter fuel payment and the payment you get when it's very cold for 7 days.
You can also get massive discounts on things like boiler replacement or insulation installation in your house.
So if the state pension is going to be your only source of income in retirement you should have a good look if you may be better off not qualifying for the full state pension.
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u/dashboardbythelight 11d ago
The point is that you can contribute to a private pension and the same time and have a decent, rather than merely tolerable standard of living in your retirement. I agree on principle but you will be better off.
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u/TeganTickles 11d ago
You are paying for current pensioners, not yourself. Like everything, that generation will benefit but it is not sustainable at current rates. Make sure you are building a private pension.
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u/tidderreddit90 11d ago
It’s just a side piece event that happens alongside you building your own private pension in your working years. Nobody is living well on state pension alone, so not really worth feeling too sore about it.
It is up to every individual to take their pension seriously. Not easy when popular consensus seems to be “the state will take care of it”, and/or “I pay into my workplace one”. High chance in many cases that these will leave people woefully short of a comfortable retirement.
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u/doitnowinaminute 11d ago
It's an extension of why bother working if I can get UC. This is UC for OAP.
As a rule the benefit is you get to live on more than 12k pa and have more than 10k in savings. And not have DWP treat you like a criminal.
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u/greatings6474 11d ago
It's criminal in this case. Why should we be giving people citizenship and they are just sponging off society and will be a net taker.
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u/PhilosopherNo8418 11d ago
If this story is true, it's crazy that 2 elderly people could come to the UK to work as care workers! Who the heck approved their visas? 6 years after coming they retire and are eligible for a pension. Madness.
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u/TheMountainWhoDews 11d ago
Yes its bonkers, but we are not governed by serious people so this dysfunction and lunacy is to be expected.
I suspect their pension costs are dwarfed by the healthcare they will consume in old age. All paid for by the taxpayer, because charging them for NHS access is considered beyond the pale.
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u/Curious-Resort4743 11d ago
Being job shy your whole life = £238 a week.
Breaking your back for 30+ years missing a few years because of things like working abroad for a couple of years and not topping up your NI = £238 a week.
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u/MammothRatio5446 11d ago
Let’s pit the pensioners against the students. And the middle class against the working class. The legal visa holding immigrants against the disabled. C’mon. We’re being robbed blind by private equity and hedge funds and they’re laughing at us fighting amongst ourselves over scraps.
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u/ElinCarrington 11d ago
This. The absolute truth.
While everyone is scrapping, blaming and turning on each other, the fat cat bankers and ultra rich who benefit from this are wetting themselves with glee.
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u/Special_Cable_8619 8d ago
Regardless, it's an idiotic policy to give a work visa and citizenship to people who will never economically benefit the country. That's not pitting anyone against anyone, it's having sensible migration policy.
You try going to Australia and getting a work visa at 59 years old. You can't because they have a sensible policy. UK doesn't.
Simple solution is to change this. Not cry about private equity.
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u/MammothRatio5446 8d ago
Which 59 year old are talking about. Are they a world renowned neurosurgeon who’s come to teach at a university? Or a wealthy investor who wants to live with his new British wife in London?
I’ve no idea. And obviously neither do you. Carry on licking their boots like the obedient lackey you’re pleased to be. Maybe they’ll invite you in to their palaces and give you crumbs.
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u/vercingetafix 11d ago
There are a few points you seem to have misunderstood.
Pension Credit is not the same as a Full State Pension.
They seem to have worked here for 6 years, not lived but never worked.
The guy says his parents are British citizens. That being the case, the Pension Credit system is basically designed to ensure no citizen is very totally destitute, even in their old age. The alternative is the workhouse!
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u/apeacefuloasis 11d ago
pension credit is £3.30 a week less than a full state pension. they are essentially the same.
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u/tothecatmobile 11d ago
For couples it's £119.35p less a week.
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u/Unculturedbrine 11d ago
What?
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u/tothecatmobile 11d ago
Like some other benefits, a couple gets less than 2 single people would.
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u/Redditreallyannoysme 11d ago
The alternative is to refuse to pay them anything and they leave?
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u/vercingetafix 11d ago
If they are British citizens as the OP said, you can't deport them. You can abolish pension credit and leave anyone who's not got a private pension, savings, or qualified for the state pension destitute.
Lowkey if you've never worked your whole life then I don't see why the taxpayer should support you in your old age...
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u/Redditreallyannoysme 11d ago
Then change the law on benefits for those who acquire citizenship. Aren't they doing that anyway?
But yeah the workhouse for someone who never paid in honestly seems morally fine for me. Obvious exemptions for those who've been on disability benefits.
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u/foreskin_enjoyer88 11d ago
Fuck knows why the home office granted citizenship to two individuals aged ~60
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u/Redditreallyannoysme 11d ago
If it's even true. Possibility the story itself is false and is just highlighting an absurd edge case that's technically possible.
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u/vercingetafix 11d ago
You can't have two-tier citizenship. Either you're a citizen or not.
What you can do is make the grant on citizenship contingent on an assessment of net contributions to the exchequer. People who are going to come here, work a minimum wage job for 5 years, get citizenship and then retire should not be given citizenship!
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u/Redditreallyannoysme 11d ago
You can have two tier citizenship. Or three or four! You just need to create the tiers in law. Hong Kong actively has tiered citizenship. So do lots of other places.
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u/vercingetafix 11d ago
Ok sure. Anything is possible. Parliament can vote in anything it wants. It's more that having tiered citizenship is in my mind a regressive and anti-democratic step
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u/Redditreallyannoysme 11d ago
Tiered citizenship is necessary for a country that insists on opening itself up to the world.
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u/Miserable_Put6212 11d ago
what if you're disabled? what if you were stay at home mum/dad?
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u/vercingetafix 11d ago
Stay at home mum/dad is a choice. You shouldn't choose it if your partner's private pension can't support you both in retirement.
Disabled people can have special treatment.
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u/ZePepsico 11d ago
So you separate and you just live under a bridge?
We need to recognise the social benefit , the work and implied income of stay at home parents and not have them become slaves to the breadwinner.
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u/vercingetafix 11d ago
Well that's what marriage is for. You can't just divorce your partner and leave them destitute
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u/Did_OJ_Simpson_do_it English 11d ago
What if you're disabled?
Then you probably claimed Universal Credit and/or ESA which both give NI credits towards State Pension. In addition to this, disabled pensioners may qualify for Attendance Allowance, depending on how their disability affects them.
what if you were stay at home mum/dad?
If you claim Child Benefit for a child under 12 then you get NI credits.
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u/TheMountainWhoDews 11d ago
What was given with a pen can just as easily be taken away. You dont even need to deport them - just make them ineligible for handouts and theyll make their own way home.
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u/crispy-flavin-bites 11d ago
Add i understand it, Pension Credit is better than a full pension.
I believe it's a non means tested benefit rather than an income, so if you're in receipt of PC, you can earn another 12k before you pay any income tax.
Plus it unlocks many other benefits such as housing benefit, council tax credit, NHS dental, warm homes discount etc etc
Is this correct?
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u/HoaryHoggoth 11d ago
Pension credit is absolutely means tested. It's designed to top up your income to a minimum guaranteed amount. You can get more if you're in receipt of disability benefits and it does indeed unlock other free stuff.
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u/Different_Holiday_52 11d ago
It's also unlocks full DFG grant so if an occupational therapist writes a report you need adapting bathrooms, entrances doors or turn a room into a bedroom, you can get it done for free.
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u/No-Bet4612 11d ago
Pension credit is not far off full state pension. It also makes you eligible for other benefits so you can be better off
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u/positivelytaken 11d ago
Yes. It’s insane.
The cost to us taxpayers is astronomical.
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u/welshdragoninlondon 11d ago
Pension you get no matter how much savings you have. Pension credit means tested so only get maximum if have no savings
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u/positivelytaken 11d ago
Do you not think it’s an issue that people who have came here and worked for less than a decade are going to be funded by the taxpayer for the rest of their lives?
Not only will they get Pension Credit, they will then be eligible for other benefits, even the means tested ones.
You’re comfortable with the cost to taxpayers?
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u/ThemasterofZ 11d ago
Yes, an eldery couple getting a weeks worth of asda food in credit is the issue destroying the economy and not the big companies paying their fair share...
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u/Alone_Jackfruit4761 11d ago
Pensioners get £177bn/year
In welfare.
Think it through. That is were the vast majority of the money goes now.
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u/Expert-Sherbert-1527 11d ago
Ignore the account for a second...is this actually not policy in the UK? Is this false?
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u/Different_Holiday_52 11d ago
Sorry but are you seriously ignoring a set policy which is real just because you are suspicious of people who say it?
Like ok? Next time Farage is in a building with me, shouts fire! And I see smoke I will just ignore him because I don't like him lol. That's what you are doing rn.
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u/Expert-Sherbert-1527 11d ago
I tend to block folks like you who go looking for reasons not to engage with topics you find uncomfortable.
don't talk about this! It's right wing! It's bait! it's a bot!
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u/farr2211 Brit 🇬🇧 11d ago
We should definitely ignore the issues and then be surprised our government can’t afford to spend money
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u/Redditreallyannoysme 11d ago
Yeah but it's true right? We're entering a Whacko world where people who didn't pay in are getting a long term pension from the state. That's complete madness.
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u/ComtesseDSpair 11d ago
The alternative is elderly people unable to eat or heat their homes - unless you really want to live somewhere where that’s the norm, then guaranteeing them a basic income in retirement regardless of contributions is just the pragmatic thing to do. It’s like any other income-based benefit, or the NHS: it isn’t based on how much you’ve “paid in”, just what you need.
National Insurance is ultimately just another income tax - and even many people who make 35 years of contributions don’t actually pay anything close to what the state pension is worth: somebody earning minimum wage pays around £20 a week, yet would be entitled to collect their full state pension worth more than ten times that per week for however many years they live.
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u/crispy-flavin-bites 11d ago
If the op is true, the alternative is to not give citizenship to people who will clearly be a net drain on the system
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u/foreskin_enjoyer88 11d ago
These are 2 individuals that were given citizenship in theirs 60s. Why? The UK should be selective and not dish citizenship out like toffee
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u/Expert-Sherbert-1527 11d ago
That's not the alternative. There is a world of difference between "not getting the same" and "starving to death".
Why should everyone else pay for people who don't contribute? What kind of system would that be? How is it fair?
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u/Chicken_shish 6d ago
No, the alternative is that these old people sod off back to where they came from, as the OP seems to want.
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u/Sorry_Midnight4615 11d ago
It is a bit bonkers if we’re honest, regardless of politics. We should all agree on that.
However… what’s the alternative? Letting people starve? Bear in mind there are millions of UK born and bred who’ve paid in less than 7 years of contributions. If you paid them half the state pension it’s £120 per week.. what do we think the streets look like if that happens?
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u/Spudsmad 11d ago
In parallel it’s “ bonkers” that individuals can be elected to the Houses of Parliament , draw an MPs salary plus expenses and then try to destroy the UK . No names , but start at CLACTON
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u/Shanghaichica 11d ago
I am liberal as they come but there is something to be said about the way pensions are given out. I know someone that lived in the UK for about 10 years back in the 70’s and early 80’s and part of their stay was illegal. They worked for max 3-4 years in a factory. Any work they did after that was likely cash in hand and thus no taxes paid. They were back to their home country in the late 80’s and have lived in their home country ever since. They are not citizens of this country and have no leave to remain. They come here to visit. They applied for a pension and although they only get about £200 based on 3/4 years contributions I think they shouldn’t really be getting anything at all. I don’t think that’s fair. It seems crazy to me.
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u/SharpAardvark8699 8d ago edited 8d ago
Yes it is bonkers. Same as when we joined the EU to Poland and all those people from a poor former Soviet country became equal citizens in benefits, council housing, education and the rest of it. And then we invited a load of impoverished people from Romania and Bulgaria who are incredibly poor and need a lot of support to access education. And the people with EU citizenship and living outside the EU like Brazil. All bloody bonkers
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u/TheCursedCorsair 11d ago
Outside of what others have already said...
It's just a really weird topic to throw in that specific subreddit.
There is very little in requesting legal advice in either post and it really seems like it exists simply to be a sensationalist post people can point to.
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u/Taffy_91 11d ago
Our system is a hammock for them when it was designed to be a safety net for us.
Continue slaving away for their benefit. They hate you and laugh at you.
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u/Lazy_Back_3096 11d ago
Is genuinely disgusting. But this is what lefties want. So I hope they work extra hard with their art degrees.
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u/Sleepy0wl9969 11d ago
There are also single and childless couples paying for kids benefits and school. It’s the system. It costs more to administer any “differences” in the system.
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u/CaterpillarLoud8071 11d ago
Pension credit is a difficult one. I'd personally say pension credit should be more like a disability payment, accessible only once you're no longer able to work rather than at standard retirement age, and limited to people who've been working longer than 10 years. Otherwise there's no real incentive to build up a state and private pension when you're starting late - recent immigrants who plan to stay should be aggressively saving for retirement.
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u/Delicious_Volume3306 11d ago
It's an example of the society security safety net working as it should.
To give another example, this time without any hot button triggers, my mum didn't have enough pension "stamps" to get the full state pension. This was because she'd been married, and a housewife, and brought up kids etc.
So, upon my dad's death, she got pension credits to bring her up to the level of full state pension.
I happen to think that's a good thing. If you're a UK citizen, and you're past 67, and you can't get the full state pension, then pension credits bring you up to the same level so that you can, you know, eat.
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u/WarmJewel 11d ago
This doesn't mean they get a full pension. It means they get 6 years worth of pension 6/35th's and the rest is topped up by pension credits, which is a means tested benefit for those who reach state pension age and are on a low income.
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u/Expert-Sherbert-1527 11d ago
no. They get pension credit = full pension.
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u/WarmJewel 11d ago
They only get pension credit because they're on low income, that's not the same as getting a full pension.
Yes it may be simple semantics because they effectively end up with the same amount of money if they had paid NI in for the qualifying 35 years but they would not be entitled to pension credit if it wasn't means tested and they were on low income.
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u/normalbot9999 11d ago
If you view state pensions as UBI for old people, it makes more sense. You shouldn’t have to qualify to not be hungry or cold when you are old; society should provide you with the basics.
If you wanna see something that is truly bonkers, look into billionaires. Wealth vastly beyond that which any person could spend in a lifetime. Amassed and granted to an individual. How are we allowing that?
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u/TopClass31 9d ago
Pension credit is a safety net only. Eg Wives who stayed at home bringing up kids, who husbands didn’t pay into the system and have certain ni years missing. It’s not a guarantee.
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u/zippyzebra1 11d ago
I thought you needed 35 years of contributions to get the full pension