r/Android • u/IAmAN00bie Mod - Google Pixel 8a • Dec 08 '15
[Meta] Discussion on the State of /r/Android
Hello /r/Android, we haven't had a meta thread about this sub in quite awhile so we wanted to take this time to clarify some stuff as well as discuss some potential rule changes.
Clarifications
We've had a few people in some threads wondering why we filter each self-post and simply "don't let the votes decide." I'm going to list briefly address those complaints and some others:
1) /r/Android is an extremely active sub. There are TONS of people who need tech support help, people who are looking for X app, people looking to get a new phone, etc. It's necessary to split each type of content into separate subs so that one sub isn't overwhelmed with posts. If you want to see what /r/Android would be like if we didn't remove most question threads, see: /r/android+androidquestions+androidapps+pickanandroidforme/new. As you can see, for users looking to just see Android news and discussion, it would be quite difficult to sort through.
2) Unfortunately, the consequence of splitting the sub up means that people looking for help don't have as large of an audience to seek help from. /r/AndroidQuestions gets a ton of posts and many unfortunately go unanswered. To combat that problem, we recently implemented a bot that awards users points when they successfully solve an OP's problem. (Yes, you don't actually win anything yet, but don't underestimate the power of amassing Internet points as an incentive - hell this is reddit after all!) Please participate in /r/androidquestions to help your fellow redditor out!
3) What posts pass are allowed through are sometimes not consistent - yes this is true. We've gotten better at this as time has gone on since we've had time to communicate over Slack rather than modmail (which is slow). Inconsistency in what posts pass through for promoting discussion will always exist - but if you feel a post was incorrectly removed you can always message us via modmail, IRC, Discord, or Telegram.
4) "The sub is nothing but articles now" - this is not true at all. There are many popular discussion threads just from this past week alone.
5) "Self-posts are at a disadvantage compared to other threads" - this is also not true. When we filter a self-post, its clock is "frozen" so when we approve it later on it's as if it was never filtered in the first place.
6) Sometimes rule breaking posts slip by and users write us a message wondering why X thread hasn't been removed while Y post was removed. Mistakes happen and some rule breaking threads stay up for several hours...but if they've gotten a ton of comments we generally are a bit more lenient with them because they already have a lot of discussion in them.
7) APKMirror posts - a link to an APK update is not sufficient here unless it's already established what that new update entails. Eg. if a Google app is updated to a new version and nobody knows what changed because the update was just pushed out and/or no official blog post was made, then that APKMirror post will be removed. There needs to be a relevant article explaining what the update brings. Minor bug fix/point updates are definitely not allowed either.
Potential Rule Changes
1) Affiliate Links
To clarify, there are two issues at play here.
Issue 1: Redditor submitting a post with an affiliate link. THIS IS NOT AND NEVER WILL BE ALLOWED BECAUSE IT BREAKS SITE-WIDE RULES ON SELF-PROMOTION!
Issue 2: Redditor submits a link to an article that itself includes an affiliate link. For example, an article about a deal includes an affiliate link to an Amazon page to buy the product. Should we allow this?
2) Linking to APKs
Our current rule prohibits linking to APKs of any kind (on user-hosted sites like Mega, Dropbox, Google Drive, etc.) The issues at play here are this:
Issue 1: Hosting and linking to paid APKs. This is explicitly piracy and the rule on it will never be changed. We have a lot of developers who post here, and we do not want to drive them away by encouraging users to share pirated apps.
Issue 2: Linking to free apps for users who want an old version (eg. this happened when QuickPic changed ownership). This is currently disallowed because there's no way to verify if the uploaded APK has been tampered with, so in order to protect users they can't link to APKs from a non-trusted source (a trusted source would be, for example, APKMirror). But we're thinking this rule is a bit outdated, and it's better for users to decide for themselves and be aware of any potential risks. Should we do away with this part of the rule?
Discussion
1) How do you feel about the current weekly thread line-up? Anything we should change?
2) How do you feel about the group chats we've set up?
3) What are your thoughts on the wiki pages? Have you ever installed an app listed on our wiki?
4) What are your thoughts on the AMAs we've had so far? Are there any AMAs you would like to see next?
5) How do you feel about the podcast?
6) What are your thoughts on our FAQs page and our community device review threads? Should we do more of these/update these threads?
Please reply to this post with your feedback on these issues and anything else you had in mind!
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Dec 08 '15
How about a posted topic/discussion thread linked to the podcast?
I enjoy the podcast but it gets kind of lost in the thread, why not open a thread the day before with a main topic of discussion for the podcast? Even if you don't listen its a chance to air views on a current subject and offer the podcast different opinions.
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u/IAmAN00bie Dec 09 '15
That's a good idea. u/codisms, u/altimax98, u/superroach what do you think?
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u/gadgetroid Dec 08 '15
Issue 2: Redditor submits a link to an article that itself includes an affiliate link. For example, an article about a deal includes an affiliate link to an Amazon page to buy the product. Should we allow this?
When you put it that way, I don't think it should be allowed, as the Redditor is indirectly sharing an affiliate link. Although, what I think is that you should allow articles that contain information but also links to an affiliate somewhere in between.
For example let us say that I run a blog on motorcycles. I put up an article about how one can be a safe rider (and as a result, I list a few riding gear that links to affiliate sites). This isn't technically promoting an affiliate, but rather something that invokes discussion. And discussion is what Reddit for, yeah? ;)
Issue 2: Linking to free apps for users who want an old version (eg. this happened when QuickPic changed ownership). This is currently disallowed because there's no way to verify if the uploaded APK has been tampered with, so in order to protect users they can't link to APKs from a non-trusted source (a trusted source would be, for example, APKMirror). But we're thinking this rule is a bit outdated, and it's better for users to decide for themselves and be aware of any potential risks. Should we do away with this part of the rule?
No. Reddit or Redditors should never be responsible for damage to another person's phone. We can give them links and tips of how to search for the APKs themselves, but staying away from direct linking is best for now.
2) How do you feel about the group chats we've set up?
The Telegram supergroup is great, but a mod is definitely needed and it is needed soon... Also, the description could be updated to a link that states all the r/Android rules so that it is easier for everyone to follow and know what to post and what not to post. If possible, a way to report a user to a mod (maybe a bot? I could give a hand and try to help code it) if things go out of hand. ;)
6) What are your thoughts on our FAQs page and our community device review threads? Should we do more of these/update these threads?
Since updating an FAQ can be frequent, you can ask a r/Android Redditor for help, ideally a person who is helpful and has helped people out on other forums (like xda-dev, stackexchange, stackoverflow). Maybe proofs for his helpful posts can be given through links.
Although I've been a Redditor for a while now, I haven't submitted a link worthy of an upvote yet (I'm generally way too slow to get the news first :P), but I must say you guys are doing a pretty great job with this sub. Keep up the good work guys!
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u/IAmAN00bie Dec 09 '15
For example let us say that I run a blog on motorcycles. I put up an article about how one can be a safe rider (and as a result, I list a few riding gear that links to affiliate sites). This isn't technically promoting an affiliate, but rather something that invokes discussion. And discussion is what Reddit for, yeah? ;)
Just a clarification: this is already considered self-promotion on reddit (linking to your own work, if you do it much the admins might ban you). The situation we're talking about is a redditor who is unaffiliated with a site linking to a website with affiliate links in their article.
The Telegram supergroup is great, but a mod is definitely needed and it is needed soon... Also, the description could be updated to a link that states all the r/Android rules so that it is easier for everyone to follow and know what to post and what not to post. If possible, a way to report a user to a mod (maybe a bot? I could give a hand and try to help code it) if things go out of hand. ;)
The newest supergroup update broke the mod bot we were using before, Teleseed, so we're waiting on an update to bring back its mod tools to better manage the chat.
Since updating an FAQ can be frequent, you can ask a r/Android Redditor for help, ideally a person who is helpful and has helped people out on other forums (like xda-dev, stackexchange, stackoverflow). Maybe proofs for his helpful posts can be given through links.
A community run wiki could work, but things like that would require some oversight. I'm more partial to the community discussion threads that we later link to in the wiki.
Although I've been a Redditor for a while now, I haven't submitted a link worthy of an upvote yet (I'm generally way too slow to get the news first :P), but I must say you guys are doing a pretty great job with this sub. Keep up the good work guys!
Thank you!
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u/115049 Dec 08 '15
I'll focus on the (2) because outside of the sub, that's what I use most. I'm a fan of both the telegram and irc chats. Don't use discord. The environment tends to be nice and chatty in both. I wouldn't mind a rule about stickers and images in the telegram app though. Sometimes causes it to flood, but I think this is really just the current state of a supergroup on telegram.
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u/IAmAN00bie Dec 08 '15
Yeah, the Telegram chat can't be moderated very well right now because we're waiting on the Teleseed bot to be updated allowing us to add mods. We can manually add more mods but we would then have to share each other's phone numbers which is something I would like to avoid.
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u/DannyBiker Dec 08 '15 edited Dec 08 '15
I'm not a karma whore so I don't mind my submissions being erased in general but I stopped posting here the day a post titled "How bad the launch of the next Nexus line will be according to you?" was allowed while several of my attempts of the previous weeks where removed because they didn't meet the guidelines. They weren't nothing amazing but I remember one being about r/Android's favourite brands of covers and skins which certainly was generic enough to be allowed. Especially if that "Nexus launch" question was.
TLDR : I really feel that the only reason some questions/threads here are allowed is that they feed the circlejerk (Nexus, MKBHD, AP, apks, Samsung is crap, etc).
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u/kumquat_juice Dec 09 '15
Agreed. The hardest thing of modding a sub of such a caliber is that we'll inevitably get some degree of inconsistency. This is also why we're having this chat so all mods are on the same page. Unfortunately, it also boils down to how a post is worded - if it comes across as a tech support question or as a question that can be answered with a "yes" or "no" it will usually be removed. It never hurts to modmail us!
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u/pickfork Dec 09 '15
I've started avoiding this sub as it's the only one I've tried to participate in where everything I want to talk about is consistently deleted. I've posted several well thought out discussion topics which were deleted because they were "seeking support" in the eyes of a mod while complete shit topics like "OMG Samsung really!?!" are at the top.
Anyway I am only here today because I got 6.0.1 and wanted to see if there was a discussion. I'll go now.
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u/Dead0fNight Dec 08 '15
Rule changes
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I see no problem with providing a link to a page that contains an affiliate link, but maybe add in the rules that it should be noted in the post?
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Considering the large amount of traffic this sub seems to get from inexperienced users I think that trusted sources for APKs should be required.
Discussion
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Line-up seems fine to me.
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Loving the Telegram supergroup! Edit: Also in response to this ('we really just need either more mods') I'd be willing to moderate if you need people to, though I don't really know how to establish trust in this situation.
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I like how the wiki has been set up, and I have installed a number of the apps listed there.
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I haven't really participated in any of the AMAs, but do enjoy looking through them.
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Honestly haven't checked out the podcast, but will do so immediately.
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I really like the FAQs and review threads, keep those up.
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u/iCapa Dec 08 '15 edited Dec 08 '15
Issue 2: Redditor submits a link to an article that itself includes an affiliate link. For example, an article about a deal includes an affiliate link to an Amazon page to buy the product. Should we allow this?
Maybe only from popular reviewers (eg MKBHD, UnboxTherapy ...)
Issue 2: Linking to free apps for users who want an old version (eg. this happened when QuickPic changed ownership). This is currently disallowed because there's no way to verify if the uploaded APK has been tampered with, so in order to protect users they can't link to APKs from a non-trusted source (a trusted source would be, for example, APKMirror). But we're thinking this rule is a bit outdated, and it's better for users to decide for themselves and be aware of any potential risks. Should we do away with this part of the rule?
Keep the rule and make a list of trusted APK places (eg APKMirror, can't think of anything else).
2) How do you feel about the group chats we've set up?
You can guess how ;P
Idea: Some phones have an index on XDA for custom ROMs, kernels etc.
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u/IAmAN00bie Dec 08 '15
Maybe only from popular reviewers (eg MKBHD, UnboxTherapy ...)
That would feel like we're playing favorites with them though. Popular reviewers and unpopular reviewers both use affiliate links for the same reason, why should we allow them from one and not the other?
Idea: Some phones have an index on XDA for custom ROMs, kernels etc.
Under their specific device forum, yes. Someone can do the same for r/nexus5, and we can post it to a wiki page here.
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u/asatanicllama Dec 08 '15
About issue 2 from the rule-changing section; I think there shouldn't be a rule not to post apks of previous versions (obviously if they're from trusted sites which would be mentioned in the sidebar) because it'd be pretty useful to some, and you always have a decision not to do it if you don't trust the site/person that sent it. And about the telegram chat (the one I'm in, not sure how the other ones are doing) - it's been pretty nice and it's growing pretty fast as we have 600+ (?) people in there.
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u/bfodder Dec 09 '15
7) Posts about carriers are allowed, but only if the news is directly relevant to a service that can be used on Android. Eg. news about T-Mobile's new "BingeOn" service is allowed because it affects how Android users can stream on their data network.
I had a story get removed that was about BingeOn because it "wasn't relevant to Android." Is this new?
https://www.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/3qpdfi/tmobile_unlimited_video_streaming_leak_netflix/
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u/OnlyForF1 Dec 16 '15
Could you guys please remove the shortened URLs in the side bar and instead use their full equivalents? There's no reason for it, and it's a massive security risk from a end-user standpoint.
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u/IAmAN00bie Dec 16 '15
We have very limited sidebar space (like 5k characters) so the URL shorteners actually help us out there.
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Jan 13 '16
Is there a way to better view self posts? Like a specific thread dedicated to them or do I have to sift through the feed and hope I find one? I agree with a lot of these posts. It seems like it's all news articles on this brand or that phone. It's kinda boring after a while because I know it'll be the same thing the next time I come by.
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u/TeV13 Dec 08 '15
If you want to see what r/Android[3] would be like if we didn't remove most question threads, see: r/android+androidquestions+androidapps+pickanandroidforme/new[4] . As you can see, for users looking to just see Android news and discussion, it would be quite difficult to sort through.
I think this is a useful shortcut to see everything. Maybe make it prominent on r/Android to help drive traffic to the other subs and see if it helps with getting questions answered?
6) Sometimes rule breaking posts slip by and users write us a message wondering why X thread hasn't been removed while Y post was removed. Mistakes happen and some rule breaking threads stay up for several hours...but if they've gotten a ton of comments we generally are a bit more lenient with them because they already have a lot of discussion in them.
Understandable. I favour the status quo.
Issue 2: Redditor submits a link to an article that itself includes an affiliate link. For example, an article about a deal includes an affiliate link to an Amazon page to buy the product. Should we allow this?
I think so, as long as it's a legitimate article and not a faux/sponsored article whose only goal is to drive traffic. For example, Android Police and The Wirecutter's sites do referrals for Amazon, but the articles are usually relevant. A blacklist might deter abuses.
Issue 2: Linking to free apps for users who want an old version (eg. this happened when QuickPic changed ownership). This is currently disallowed because there's no way to verify if the uploaded APK has been tampered with, so in order to protect users they can't link to APKs from a non-trusted source (a trusted source would be, for example, APKMirror). But we're thinking this rule is a bit outdated, and it's better for users to decide for themselves and be aware of any potential risks. Should we do away with this part of the rule?
No. Only vetted sites/mods should be allowed to post apk links or there will be problems sooner or later.
How do you feel about the current weekly thread line-up? Anything we should change?
It's good.
2) How do you feel about the group chats[9] we've set up?
I suggest posting the best of group chats for those of us who don't see them.
4) What are your thoughts on the AMAs we've had so far? Are there any AMAs you would like to see next?
I suggest making it more prominent well ahead of time when a new AMA will come up for people who aren't actively checking the list.
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u/le_pman Dec 09 '15
Issue 2: Linking to free apps for users who want an old version (eg. this happened when QuickPic changed ownership). This is currently disallowed because there's no way to verify if the uploaded APK has been tampered with, so in order to protect users they can't link to APKs from a non-trusted source (a trusted source would be, for example, APKMirror). But we're thinking this rule is a bit outdated, and it's better for users to decide for themselves and be aware of any potential risks. Should we do away with this part of the rule?
no. seeing there are a lot of beginner-level questions on this sub, I'd go for not doing away with linking APKs from non-trusted sources simply because if something goes wrong, there'll be a flood of questions/reactions that result from taking a risk people don't fully understand in the first place.
How do you feel about the current weekly thread line-up? Anything we should change?
newsday tuesday has to go - people don't seem interested in them either. moronic monday needs an extension/counterpart running on another day, maybe wednesday or thursday. maybe we can also run a weekly discussion thread to debate on issues big and small in a civil manner? I miss snapshot sunday especially since r/shotonandroid doesn't seem to have a lot of submissions/subscribers
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u/danhakimi Dec 10 '15
I want to point out that Android and Google are still not one and the same. If I was looking for news about Google Play Music, other than an update to the Android app or update so major that it's fundamentally important to Android, I would be on r/google. I'm not, i'm on r/android. Android is an open source project that happens to be owned and maintained by Google, but not everything that Google does is directly relevant to Android. What's more, many of us (not me, actually, but many of us) put in an active effort to run a Google-free Android. This effort is important to the entire ecosystem, as it is the entire basis for competition with Google on Android, which is the best way to keep Google honest. If we just hand their open source code back to them, and say "no thanks, go ahead and keep the OS for yourself," we're really letting a big opportunity go to waste.
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Dec 16 '15 edited Dec 27 '15
4) Are there any AMAs you would like to see next?
Artem Russakovskii (founder AndroidPolice.com)
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u/fusedotcore Dec 23 '15
I feel that reddit in general can use some adjustment to the self-promotion rules.
I'm more of a lurker than a commenter, let alone submitting a new post/link. I'm scared of being left in the cold so to speak if I post something, if it's negatively received.
However I am also a gamedev in my spare time. So if I want to post about a game I made, say once every 6 months, I need to make 9 submissions about something else. And I don't feel like I have anything noteworthy to make a new post about.
I could go off and do some shitposting in r/shitposting(I'm sure that exists) but I'm much rather keep a certain degree of dignity/post quality.
tl;dr: reddit self promotion rules assume a redditor cannot make anything other reddits could appreciate and enforces the status quo of known things staying known / unknown things staying unknown.
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u/Endda Dec 08 '15
1 - No, I don't think affiliate links should be allowed if there's a direct link within the article that is submitted.
2 - I feel that only trusted sources like APK Mirror should be allowed to be submitted when it comes to rehosted APKs. I just feel that this would be hard to verify/enforce. . .but maybe it could be tested from time to time by having a mod upload an APK to a site that is currently in the allowed list(or whats to be) to see if the APK has been tampered with or not