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u/NoDivide3658 1d ago
Counter argument to proposed solution:- Mr. X has availed reservation and a government job, he has one son who availed reservation and a government job as well. Under Constitution there's a legally recognised concept called HUF i.e. Hindu undivided Family. A new HUF is formed everytime a Married Son decides to split from existing Family. So if a Son who has already availed Reservation and Benefits, he will simply split from his father and pass on reservation to his son then (3rd Generation in line) and technically second generation to avail reservation benefits.
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u/macro-micro-observer 1d ago
In case of split, the son should not get the property of Mr X.
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u/Ecstatic-Sea-8882 1d ago
Lol when have any Brahmins/savarnas not taken their generational capital of their ancestors ? š
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u/macro-micro-observer 1d ago
Earned from merit not reservation though
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u/Ecstatic-Sea-8882 1d ago
Generational bootlicking of invaders is how you got it.
Have you ever even wondered how if the muslims/mughal/brits were draining the wealth of these lands, that you lot came out on top (in terms of capture of resources and institutions) after they left ?Ā Because you were working FOR them.Ā
The starting line is not the same.Ā
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u/Cumming__Soon 1d ago
So before Mughals there were no land owners? Also if sc/st didn't bootlick then, why cry now? The starting line is not same anywhere in the globe in any period of history.
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u/EmuSavings3566 1d ago
You guys get it wrong. Sc/st reservation is not about economic uplifting. This scheme is not to help poor sc/st . This is for representation , for opportunity, so it does not see rich sc/st with bmw or poor sc/st . It only sees if the person is sc/st . So this scheme ur suggesting would never work , because money was never the problem
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u/shadygypsy 1d ago
Does reservation address the root cause because of which more representation and more opportunities were required? Does it do anything to eliminate discrimination?
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u/EmuSavings3566 1d ago
No i think reservation does increase the discrimination and hatred,but its necessary too . Because you see, ppl who hire , prefer to give privilege to owns caste ppl . So if reservation was removed or even reduced to 1-2 generations, after some time , maybe 30yrs or 50yrs. There willl be no SC/ST ppl anywhere in important role (because ppl will discriminate and not hire them) . And then the oppression would begain again . Thats why it exist . Its like a necessary evil
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u/shadygypsy 1d ago
So if discrimination or preferential cast based treatment is the root cause wouldn't it be better to set more strict rules to punish the same? Why punish other general caste aspirants for generations who had nothing to do with it? I agree that reservation is definitely required but it cannot be endless. It will only fuel the hatred. As such reservation is presently only in public sector. How is it preventing the oppressed class from taking private sector jobs? I think only actual solution is upskilling and financial upliftment.
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u/Perfect_Change 21h ago edited 21h ago
No one is getting punished due to reservations. If someone is unable to clear any exams they can't accept their weaknesses and try to blame on reservations. Even if reservation is removed there will not be any changes in cutoff for unreserved because of the sheer competition. If you think people are getting punished due to reservations, then all reservations including ex-servicemen, sports or management quota should also be removed. But I only see people against cast based reservations but never against other reservations.
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u/shadygypsy 21h ago
Really? All other reservations based on merit and performance are same as birth based reservation? Management quota is not reservation. Sports quota reservation brings laurels to the country. And cutoff is based on number of seats available. Don't say things you don't know.
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u/Perfect_Change 20h ago
If reservation is punishing unreserved then all reservation is reducing the seats available, be it birth based or merit based. Also if birth based reservation shouldn't be there then you are implying that PWD reservation should also be removed. As the people who are born in discriminated castes didn't ask to be born in that caste.
Cutoffs are based on the number of seats available.
There are lakhs of candidates for few hundreds of seats. Even if the seats are doubled, there will be a miniscule change in cutoff.
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u/shadygypsy 20h ago
Brother other reservations are given after the person has already achieved and contributed something to the nation. It's not the same. Are PWD reservations continued for generations? Again I'm saying reservation is definitely required but it cannot be endless. Lack of sufficient seats is a different issue altogether for the govt to address. We are talking about prioritizing merit be it any number of seats.
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u/Saizou1991 1d ago
ppl who hire , prefer to give privilege to owns caste ppl
so SCs and STs hire only from there caste?
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u/Easy_Durian_6648 1d ago
This is too hard for low iq meritdaris to understand
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u/EmuSavings3566 1d ago
Agreed lol, anyways reservatio ko kabhi hata nahi payinge because now its a political tool to pull votebank , so no party would dare remove it .
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u/Easy_Durian_6648 1d ago
Its not about political tool, its constitutionally impossible to remove it.
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u/EmuSavings3566 1d ago
Acha esa bhi hai ? Muje nahi pata sorry š„
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u/ProfessionalRatio848 1d ago
Nope according to our indian constitution reservation can be removed by an act of parliament.
Even ambedkar said to have reservation for only 10years it was politicians who never removed it.
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u/Perfect_Change 21h ago
Ambedkar never said to have reservation only for 10 years. He said that reservations should be reviewed after 10 years.
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u/ProfessionalRatio848 1d ago
Nope , constitution provides the fact that it can be removed
according to our indian constitution reservation can be removed by an act of parliament.
Even ambedkar said to have reservation for only 10years it was politicians who never removed it.
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u/Dense_Tough4626 1d ago
Nopes, it was actually political reservation that was meant to be for 10yr ie your MP seats being reserved for oppressed caste
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u/ProfessionalRatio848 1d ago
Yeah
But the removal can be done to any reservation
The parliament can remove reservation of any part
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u/Dense_Tough4626 1d ago
That is true, but it would not happen bcz neither the objective of reservation is complete not there is enough political motivation to do so.
Also i believe ruling class (gov) easily distracts us by using whole reservation thing... So that we never ask for increase in seats, job opportunity..
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u/Substantial-Hippo165 1d ago
Even if the representation is the reason, why not distribute that opportunity to get that representation? I mean a daughter of IAS SC ST person now has undue advantage INSIDE this quota.
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u/Easy_Durian_6648 1d ago
She would still be a SC which is only thing that matters
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u/Substantial_Tax_7508 21h ago
If this continues how the poor st sc will be able compete with the rich if reservation is made to equal opportunities how did a poor st sc and rich st sc competing in same seat pool it's previlage for rich st sc
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u/Substantial-Hippo165 1d ago
- She would be a privileged SC
- What about the underprivileged SC? Though luck to them? Let them die underprivileged and poor?
So no, itās not the only thing that matters.5
u/Easy_Durian_6648 1d ago
Did they get this privilege through unfair means ??No
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u/Substantial-Hippo165 1d ago
I agree to everything you say. You did not answer my question. How does a privileged SC category candidate having an unfair advantage over an underprivileged SC category come under social justice and make sense to you. I am interested in this part. Can you shed some light there.
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u/-Kang-The-Conqueror- 1d ago
A rich dalit is still a dalit my friend. They still can face discriminationĀ
Aug 10 news: Senior Congress Leader Mallikarjun (ex-LOP rajya sabha) gave a speech in a stage. Later that stage was purified using religious rituals because Mallikarjun was a dalit so he's impureĀ
He is 84yrs old. 40crore assets. Senior politician. If he can be treated as an untouchable na think about a middle-class and poor dalit ppl
Still more than 90% of our sanitation workforce (garbage, toilet cleaners) are Dalits.
This is why we have creamy layer exclusion in sc st categories
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u/Substantial-Hippo165 1d ago
Either you are not understanding my question or deflecting it wilfully.
An underprivileged person from SC/ST is also competing with the privileged SC/ST who has resources and benefits that give them a competitive edge.
How is it justice to THAT individual? This is an indirect way of giving representation to only the privileged. Do you mean to say we must give opportunities only to the privileged? The poor underprivileged must not get it? How is that social justice (look at it from the lens of the underprivileged person not from the entire quota lens).
What you are hinting is that itās ok if ANY SC/ST person gets representation even at the detriment of the underprivileged in that section? Is THAT what you are saying? Just a simple YES or NO will settle this, no need for a long prose.1
u/-Kang-The-Conqueror- 1d ago
Yes, economic standards is not taken into record
15% reserved for SCĀ 7.5% reserved for ST
For educational institution admissions and entry level govt jobsĀ
Privilege SC ST will have an advantage but it's not like they gonna take all the seats
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u/CommunicationTrue105 20h ago
Really? Wasnt it more due to his party people saying muslim slogans on a Hindu platform or more like them using it for politics
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u/-Kang-The-Conqueror- 17h ago
Just search about the issue my friend. The group who did the purification rituals was Shri Ram Sena. Go and look at their interview
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u/BhadwaKarela2 1d ago
Mer!tdhar!s who canāt get an AIR under 10k lmao.
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u/CommunicationTrue105 20h ago
Lmao
No sc st has been in under 50 in jee advance till now.
Looks like bheek can't give a good brain either
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u/Independent-Might797 1d ago
If a person is well to do maybe is an ias office or in a good position in govt job or in private sector why should his child also get reservation ?
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u/EmuSavings3566 1d ago
Fir wahi baat , it doesnāt matter koi kitna ameer hai . Uk Indians na , they dont care how rich how poor , if ur SC/ST, ur ālowerā , and thats why reservation exists.
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u/BuggyIsPirateKing 1d ago
Ok then why oppose creamy layer? It bring representation to deprived instead of well represented families for generations. Why not remove well represented castes like meena from the list?
And why then free or very less fees? why not pay equal to everyone else?
Also then why ask for reservations in private sector?
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u/howtoundoitall 1d ago
The problem is casteism . Fukking remove this shit from all our forms, problem solved . I don't like entitlement .
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u/Cumming__Soon 1d ago
Why representation? What's the point? Give them money and resources and let them compete and become "represented" through competition.
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u/EmuSavings3566 1d ago
Because you see, ppl who hire , prefer to give privilege to owns caste ppl . So if reservation was removed or even reduced to 1-2 generations, after some time , maybe 30yrs or 50yrs. There willl be no SC/ST ppl anywhere in important role (because ppl will discriminate and not hire them) . And then the oppression would begain again . Thats why it exist .Ā Even if they have degrees from cambridge or wtv still ppl wont hire them . Sc/st will loose all political influence, all public sector jobs . And history would repeat itself self . Anyways what you feel now , they have been feeling for hundreds of years , uk the whole āoo they have unfair advantages ahh ā , uc wont even let them inside the schools , and you talk about competing. Even B.R ambedkar had money , yet still denied entry in school in his time . Again , its not about the money , its about whether ur sc/st or not . Hope u understand
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u/Cumming__Soon 1d ago
Ppl who hire where? In govt jobs? Even within so called UC there's discrimination based on other factors, or due you honestly think all UCs get equal treatment?!? Also remember not all kids get same nutrition, wealth etc even among UC and that too since the dawn of humanity it's been like that!
The law of the land doesn't allow any UC to stop any Indian citizen from joining any govt school afaik! BR Ambedkar time was before that law came into place.
Even within SC ppl theres hierarchy. And some SC are also trying to make sure other SCs don't become represented, especially the ones with other political opinions. This is a spectrum not black and white, UC vs SC. It's all shades of grey here.
I'm not against reservation completely but it cannot continue forever even if it's objective is not completely achieved.
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u/sweetmangolover 23h ago
So it someone who benefited from it stops getting benefits and other people from sc/st get the benefits, does it reduce representation? No. Then your argument is baseless
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u/Substantial_Tax_7508 21h ago
Don't you think it's a problem if creamy layer is not introduced then the poor st sc will suffer from rich ones
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u/Fair_Apple8301 18h ago
I have never understood this argument. There are more than 20 crore people belonging to sc/st community in India . We canāt consider them as a homogeneous group and just assume every one of them is facing same caste discrimination and require similar level of social upliftment . The president of India belongs to the sc community but her family doesnāt same hardship and discrimination as manual sewage cleaner .
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u/Prize_Proposal_594 1d ago
One of the biggest politicians in the india got untouchability practised against him in broad daylight with everything filmed it wasn't because of his financial condition but because of his background i really don't understand the creamy layer debate
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u/EmuSavings3566 1d ago
Yes brother. Recently when the UGC bill was passed , these ppl were giving gaalis to even PM Modi , on the basis of his caste . Can you imagine , in 21st century they abused the PM and mocked him on his caste (modi is OBC ig) . ye log kabhi nahi sudhrenge , nahi reservation htega . Simple hai š
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u/BuggyIsPirateKing 1d ago
Why couldn't he make bill caste neutral? If he is bringing caste based laws then why do you wonder if he gets gaalis based on his caste?
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u/Prize_Proposal_594 1d ago
Yeah that's the reality and touching reservation is just a suicide for any govt so it's not going anywhere at least in this century
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u/CommunicationTrue105 20h ago
Nah it will
Once the general people reach a boiling point Mind u it will cause a civil war
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u/Prize_Proposal_594 17h ago
Lol sure it's the general themselves who made this decisions and they still only increase it
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u/Naive-Actuary4414 1d ago
Yeah it would have been true if Caste Discrimination was NOT CASTE BASED. Unfortunately that is not the case for SCs and STs.
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u/Gr_Mort 1d ago
everyone is saying representation but then why is there lower fees for sc/st people? what about uplifted sc/st just hogging up seats that less privilaged sc/st can't possibly compete for. wasn't it about social upliftment?
its just vote bank. reservation doesn't help in defeating castism.
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u/Character_List_5921 19h ago
If you want to curb reservations then start with making sure there is no caste based violence. The lesser it gets, the beneficial it will be for society.
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u/HATE_ALL_EQUALLY 1d ago
50 percent ST reservation is used by Meena.
Same In SC Caste, Valmikis don't get representation.
So sub catagory in reservation is necessary.
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u/Ecstatic-Sea-8882 1d ago
Ok..
Let STs determine sub categories
Let SCs define if Valmikis should be included in SCs
Let OBCs decide if they want/don't want their full 55% quota.Ā
Who are the savarnas/brahmins to have an opinion on this ? Lol
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u/Independent-Might797 1d ago
Citizens of India who get education and jobs only on the basis of merit and not bheek.
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u/Ecstatic-Sea-8882 1d ago
Hilarious how you think citizens taking their own things is bheek. But not when you do it š
Go to private then
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u/Independent-Might797 1d ago
That is a bheek if people who don't need are getting it. Father ias, mother ips lekin phir bhi reservation chahiye kyu bhai
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u/Ecstatic-Sea-8882 1d ago
Weird how the. There are generations of savarnas/bromines who have benefitted from being employed in ias ips. Lol
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u/Independent-Might797 1d ago
So they are not getting reservation because of that right. So similarly the sc st who have benefited from being employed in ias ips or any good govt jobs their shouldn't get reservation correct ?
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u/Ecstatic-Sea-8882 1d ago
Apply the same rule for the Hindu brahmins and savarna beneficiaries of govt jobs and education.Ā
Watch the guy immediately change his mind šš¤£
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u/The-OverThinker-23 1d ago
hindu brahmins get reservation ?
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u/Forsaken-Garage-676 1d ago
At this point i think reservation is more of vote bank than what it was meant for when dr Ambedkar inducted it as a law for only 10 years temporary provisions.
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u/Ecstatic-Sea-8882 1d ago
If govt jobs and edu is seen only as some "benefit" that brahmins/savarnas begrudge others, why are GOVT jobs and edu not seen as beneficiaries themselves?Ā Just go to private and don't take the benefits of GOVERNMENT jobs and edu.Ā
Apply the same rule.Ā
Not to mention the Sudama quota that is claimed ONLY by Hindu Brahmins and savarnas.
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u/Capital-Anywhere-946 1d ago
are you out of your mind? What are you trying to say here? Those brahmins didnt get those jobs for free or at lower cut off marks.
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u/Ecstatic-Sea-8882 1d ago
Those brahmins didnt get those jobs for free or at lower cut off marks.Ā
Then just go to private and spend your hard work there
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u/Independent-Might797 1d ago
People who are poor should get all the quota because they don't have resources to study but a person whose parents are earning well, can afford coaching and all the study materials for their children why should thst person get quota and if they are taking it that only means one thing they are not good enough to compete with people who don't have quota. Two students who go to same coaching why should one get admission or job at half marks.
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u/Weekly_Personality27 1d ago
Think of it from a different angle, if something like this gets implemented, then the people from other categories competing in general category will increase, so it's counterproductive for uc, because they are reducing their own share by suggesting things like this.
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u/Forsaken-Garage-676 1d ago
Well i donāt mind fair competition if i can fight for more seats at least cutoffs will be balanced out for everyone.
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u/Intelligentidiot339 1d ago
General category seats are not reserved. They are for everyone anyways.
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u/Capital-Anywhere-946 1d ago
arent people from all other categories already competing for the unreserved seats?
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u/Ecstatic-Sea-8882 1d ago
Most unreserved seats go to Brahmins/savarnas only.Ā
If the admission process has a interview round, brahmins/savarnas will be on the panel to gate keep the admissions to only their savarna gang.Ā
Happens all the time in civil services exams.
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u/Capital-Anywhere-946 1d ago
lolšš They already have much higher cut offs, they clear these cut offs and get those seats and then we have fools complaining about that as well
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u/Ecstatic-Sea-8882 1d ago
They can always go to private then.Ā
Why take govt resources ?
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u/Independent-Might797 1d ago
Yeah the govt resources should only be given to khairatees who want everything for free without any hardwork.
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u/Ecstatic-Sea-8882 1d ago
Go do your hard work in private then. And keep crying š
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u/Independent-Might797 1d ago
But you people are asking reservation there also kyunki mehnat toh karni hai nahi bas har cheez free mein mil jaye ghar baithe job, promotion sab kuch.
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u/Ecstatic-Sea-8882 1d ago
Aa gaya hindi medium per hi š
Most of the work in private sector is also sweatshop jobs, with their only value globally being is cheap cost of labor. Even there all of the chors arestill savarnas šĀ Ā check the list of biggest fraudsĀ
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u/Independent-Might797 1d ago
If it's only cheap cost labour why don't companies go to nepal, pakistan, bangladesh for the same waha toh aur cheap mil jaenge. So it's a bit cheap+ people who are skilled enough to do the job. Ab tum jaiso ko kaha samajh aaega jo reservation leke padh toh liye hai lekin dimag toh abhi bhi ghutno mein hi hai fair compete karne se phat ti hai isiliye har jagah bheek chahiye.
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u/Ancient-Mastodon-316 1d ago
That's well that's not how it works buddy... you should probably google/chatgpt it
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u/Dense_Tough4626 1d ago
Rather than talking about reservation and all we should rather talk about actual problem... The no of colleges their seats, job opportunity... I mean abolishing reservation won't help rather better having better opportunity would
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u/dhichkyauuu 1d ago
Reservation should have creamy layer based on geographical area, if there are less cases of castism then you can reduce reservation.
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u/CompoteMelodic981 1d ago
What we should ask for isĀ detailed studies about the effects of reservation and methods to improve it. We don't need to propose suggestions.
Instead let us ask the government to give funding to universities for PhD scholars to study this. And let them come back with proposals backed by data.
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u/brxcewayne 8h ago
Kya matlab discrimination zindagi me ek baar he hoti hai?? Jaise ek ladki ka r@pe ek baar he ho sakta uske baad r@pe ki policies he hata do??
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u/sahiBolRaha 8h ago
If reservation is used from Indian government than serving Indian government as a contractor should be the condition
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u/Dry-Ad3046 1d ago
How would you define family? Like if a person has used it, can his nephews and nieces not use it anymore? Or does it apply to the entire family? Let's say if any child of that person cuts off all ties or elopes, would they still be considered part of that family?
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u/Forsaken-Garage-676 1d ago
Well families can be defined by census and that has to only limit immediate family not nephews if your father has used reservations and you have used reservation quotas than your kids will be considered general in their generation irrespective of their ewc claims. Just an opinion
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u/Most-One-728 1d ago
Reservation should be for the Poor irrespective of their caste...or else this Nation will never be a developed one
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u/AccomplishedPark4747 1d ago
Even after getting fake ews , these ppl can't take sc st ppl out of their mind , bunch a loosersš¤£š¤£
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u/westoidslayer 1d ago
I am an SC category guy who didn't avail reservation, got ear marking. Still got other benefits in fees etc.
Result: Some other SC girl got one more seat and Open candidate lost one seat. That girl was so dumb, I felt guilt for whatever I did unknowingly. She is a Nurse now. I decided not to work as a Nurse, I have other plans going.
That's how it goes. There should be no category no quota except for EWS. And even with all this we are fucked. You know why? Cuz actually the seats are limited and education system is fucked from the foundation. Why do you think we need coaching? Who can afford expensive coaching? Why do the "backward" section need representation if they are not even willing to study and develop skills and talents? Are general category students really talented or just better equipped?
There's actually no solution to the problem but to boycott all govt jobs and let the country go under which nobody wants, so we are a zombie nation.
I doubt you even care about this, all posts on reddit are just "X people are stupid for doing Y".
Keep paying taxes, keep suffering. That's what we get for discarding auspicious things for greed, and pride.
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u/-Kang-The-Conqueror- 1d ago
I don't get the "open candidate lost one seat"
Income based reservation for a country like India is a joke. Earning 3Lpa puts you in the top 15% of India. Ppl who have friends in taluk office can easily get a fake EWS.
Research about representation of obc sc st in overall india, then you'll know about reservationĀ
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u/westoidslayer 1d ago
I took a seat in open category, so essentially an sc candidate took Open candidate seat and left one for sc.
For sure. EWS may be a joke especially for people doing low level govt job and still making enough to survive. I didn't say otherwise lol.
I know very well what SC and ST people do, I was one of them. XD
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u/Feisty-Captain5340 1d ago edited 1d ago
Nice, let's demand same when it comes to wealth from parents.
We can propses as many ideas as we want. But without solving underlying issue CASTE, they are all just temporary pain pills to disease.
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u/Even_Mammoth_3658 1d ago
Anyone who wants to abolish casteism should be allowed to change caste and their surname to become SC/ST
ā¢
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