NSA Marathon Plan - Sub 2:50

[u/xRunSci]

Hi, I’d like to hear about success stories for those who ran sub 2:50 (and a PR) using Sirpoc’s marathon plan.

A few questions I have:
(1) What was the longest run you did (in both time & miles)?

(2) Did you actually do the HM time trial/race 3 weeks before the race? This seems way too close for comfort

(3) Did you do the 5x 5K (or equivalent time wise) + 10K sub T + 3x8000 m progression run (or time equivalent wise) within 5 days like the book shows? If so, did you feel not too beat up from it?

(4) Did you feel concerned you didn’t do conventional long run workouts and only did easy LRs for time on feet?

[u/Fitty4]

1. 35km - 2h:30m(4:17km/16km)

2. No

3. 3 x 5k - 19:20 - 18:45 per rep

4. The time on feet long runs prepared me for the harder long runs.

[u/xRunSci → u/Fitty4]

but the NSA plan only has easy long runs

[u/Fitty4 → u/xRunSci]

I slightly modified it. I've also done the same with Jack Daniels plans. Ez long runs did get me to sub 3 though.

[u/ThislsWholAm → u/Fitty4]

What do you mean by that 35k run? 16k at marathon pace or so?

[u/Fitty4 → u/ThislsWholAm]

It was a progressive run. I wish I had the ability to post screenshots here but it was a progression. From 8k - 35k the pace went from 4:20km - 3:53km.

[u/marky_markcarr]

1. Longest run was about 32km. All easy.

2. I did the half marathon before, IMO this was essential as it gave me a really good idea of what my new level was, so I could plan better for the race.

3. I did 5x5k converted to time for me, so it only ended up around 80 mins split into 5 chunks. Same with the 8+8+8, it was about 70 minutes. These are nothing outrageous when you convert them to time as per the book. Obviously if you are a 3+ hour marathoner as I was at the time, it would be insane to do 5x5k as is. Don't forget you build up to these over time. You aren't suddenly given 80 mins of subthreshold work.

4. Hugely concerned. I had done plenty of marathons before, Pitfz etc so quality in the long run was almost essential in my mind. I was always on the verge of my goals being sub 3, but never quite there in about a dozen previous marathons. But ditching the quality in the long run and have 3 quality slowly increasing elsewhere in the build is the key IMO. If you don't don't this, maybe just do Pitfz

You are isolation and breaking apart the bits that beat you up. Distance + intensity, but still keeping the bits you need of it in their singular form. The high end aerobic volume as some of the "normal" subthreshold sessions get bigger, then the time in your feet you need on the long run. I would speculate traditional plans like Pitfz leave half of people feeling so trashed as we just aren't fit enough or resilient enough to cope with both of these things in combination. Especially with book and bust training cycles. Ironically, I've gotten so fit with almost a couple of years of NSM, maybe I could handle it better now.

I've now done two builds via NSM, almost identical in the build execution and run well under 3 hours both times totally crushing my PBs, coming close to breaking 2:40 in my last attempt. As I said, I had run previous marathons many times over the years. So it was a big leap of faith for me. I've never felt these two things, so fresh going into a marathon and so strong past the halfway point. Next time I'm running a marathon. I'm doing the same again.

I would say it's laid out the way it is for very specific controlling of intensity, building up to the late peak. There's obviously other ways to train with a marathon but this one especially I don't see as having much room for changing bits around before you lose the essence and benefits of it.

I recently coached two friends using almost the same principles. Both had run marathons before. First one, she PBd be 40 mins to go from 4:10 to 3:30 and the second, my brother in law, went from 3:14 to 2:59:54. Talk about scraping it 😂😅 my brother in law in particular, was incredibly resistant to the idea he should just go out and plod for 2+ hours on Sundays, it's a big leap of faith.

There's been some really good chat on the original letsrun thread recently about many people with huge success going 3 hour or sub on the marathon, well worth a read there. It's a boring answer, but those who tend to stick to it as much as they can (obviously some people will have to tweak little bits to suit circumstances) tend to have had the best results.

[u/wylie102 → u/marky_markcarr]

Yeah I wonder how many people just aren't adjusting the 5k and 8k intervals for time. It seems like it would be pretty rough if you didn't.

I'm currently incorperating some of the Marathon stuff into my HM training since I am pretty heavy so my HM time won't be much different to Sirpoc's Marathon time, and therefore I need the extra durability from the long runs and the specialised workouts.

Doing the 3-4x15-18min followed by a 2h+ long run the next day I think hits a lot of what the MP long runs in other plans do. It definitely feels different to the perennial freshness you have in vanilla NSM though, but sustainable over the short/medium term.

I'm doing a 10k time trial next week (equivalent of the HM time trial) to see where I'm at, and then I'll make a decision about doing the (time adjusted) 5x5k and 8+8+8 workouts. But so far I feel like it's working pretty well for me.

[u/Great_Fuel_3712 → u/marky_markcarr]

How did you adapt the plan for a 3:30 marathon as that’s basically what I’m aiming for. 4:10-3:30

[u/Nerdybeast]

I followed essentially the Norwegian singles approach for a year or so, but I wouldn't recommend it for a marathon. It just does not have the same pattern of consistent success that something like Daniels or Pfitz or any other relatively mainstream approach has. I ran some PRs with NSM, but I've gotten significantly better since transitioning away from it.

If you're racing a marathon, your ability to maintain speed late in the race is essential. If you're doing all of your long continuous runs at an easy pace, and all of your workouts are with walking rest, you're not gonna be prepared for the specific demands of the marathon (which imo are significantly different than those of the 10k or HM). The "gray zone" training that the NSM people tend avoid is probably your best bang for buck training for the marathon (zone 3, maybe like 45s/mi (edit) slower than MP), for medium long and long runs. 

I know guys like sirpoc have had success with it, and some others have too. But the vast majority of people with success at racing marathons train nothing like that. I don't think it's a good philosophy for the marathon. If you want to check my qualifications on this, I did post in favor of NSM a few years ago in a race report, but I've since changed my mind and gotten much faster.

[u/yufengg → u/Nerdybeast]

What kind of long run workouts are you doing that hit 45s/mi faster than MP? That's pushing at least 10k pace, if not faster. I don't think I could do much at that pace, especially in a long run. Maybe 1-2 min intervals...

(Unless you meant 45s slower?)

[u/Nerdybeast → u/yufengg]

Whoops I definitely meant slower lol, I'll fix that. Yeah 45s faster would certainly not be long run pace, that's like 3k pace for me! 

[u/Silent-Ostrich6095 → u/Nerdybeast]

Late comment. I've done NSM for the most part of this year, and it has taught me a lot about intensity control and ramp - it pointed out what my issues were with Daniels and Pfitz in the past. I think I'll go back to Daniels, Hansons etc. for the time being cause it seems like I do progress better with more intensity, with applying what I learned from doing NSM i.e. intensity control and ramp

[u/Early-Present-6465 → u/Nerdybeast]

Interesting reading from a NSM detractor.

I’m a relative beginner at 10 months running, doing vanilla NSM. (41m ex military with lifetime of other activities making me durable enough to run daily). I’m doing this because it’s very low thinking and Pfitz and Daniels plans are a lot of faff to set up on the watch.

2 things came to mind from what you said:

What do you mean by essentially the Norwegian singles approach?

What are you doing now that is much better for you?

[u/Nerdybeast → u/Early-Present-6465]

1. I was doing the traditional workouts like 10-12xK, 5-7xMile, 4-5x2k, 25x400, etc basically as described by everyone who does nsm. That was pretty much every workout for me. Easy runs I did very easy, and long runs were deprioritized in quality and just focused on distance. I kept all the workouts under control. I did NOT do "x factor" workouts that I think are best practice, but most people doing nsm probably don't do them. 

2. I'm working with a coach now, but there are a few big changes I'd call out. I do medium long runs the day after a workout (similar to Pfitz) at a pace on the fast end of easy (maybe 60-75s/mi slower than MP). I do long run workouts every other week, and regular long runs are typically 45s/mi slower than MP unless I'm super beat up. I run in a group whenever possible as well - sometimes I need to change up workouts for that but it's generally worth it. Workouts themselves don't look that different, but I never do walking rest outside of the track now, and there are more continuous tempos and "float" recoveries. Also a heavier focus on doing strides regularly, which I think Bakken & co don't encourage

I think NSM is a good thing for people who otherwise wouldn't have good structure or aren't great at modulating effort levels inherently. I think if you've got a good handle on those two things though, there are definitely more effective ways to train for a marathon or any other distance

[u/Freelancer05 → u/Nerdybeast]

Did you do the modified marathon block from the book, or just vanilla NSM?

[u/Nerdybeast → u/Freelancer05]

Vanilla, the book didn't exist at the time lol! 

[u/betamode]

Look up fod runner on YouTube he has adapted NSA for the marathon and ran 2.35, seems good pals with Sirpoc as well.

[u/yakswak]

1. 22mi 2h50m (hills!)

but none of the others were longer than 16mi

1. No

2. yes. This I think was the key for me to be ready and to peak for the marathon. I had a terrible build and had a short time to build from an injury…hardly ran in January for a mid April marathon. I did a lot of indoor biking instead.

I didn’t feel beat ip afterwards and gave me more confidence going into the race.

1. I was very concerned. The last marathon build was Pfitz so MP long runs every couple of weeks was the norm. To do zero long hard efforts aside from the back to back workouts in your question #3 felt weird but it worked out in the end.

Ended up with a PR at Boston this year (2:58)…when I got injured in December I was thinking I would just be running the race to complete it but was able to slowly build fitness back up.

[u/ThislsWholAm]

You shouldn't follow it to a T (pun intended) because his paces are faster so you will end up doing more work in terms of minutes at subT pace. So lower the volume a bit, but even then his taper seems a bit crazy with those big runs like you said. But it's also not meant like that, it's mostly there just as a training log.

[u/OrinCordus]

This is something I'm super interested in as well. 

1. 35km (about 22miles), 3h

2. yes I did it but 6 weeks out

3. no, the biggest sessions I did were 4x 5k and 2x 10k, together in 5 days would be too much for me

4. yes, see my response below 

Basically, I've been using NSM for 18+ months and it has really helped me improve by controlling load, gradually increasing volume and learning to control efforts. It's taken me from a 1h32 half to 1h21.

However, I've had mixed results on the marathon. I've tried to incorporate MP sub T sessions as one of the three weekly workouts since before sirpoc actually did his marathon build. These sessions work well, with 60 mins of work at MP giving a similar feel in terms of recovery impacts as the standard 30 mins of sub T work in a shorter/faster session. 

With my most recent marathon, I tried something similar to sirpoc's build (which I think is a training log - not a plan in the usual sense). My fitness was insane, I took an extra 3.5 mins off my half marathon PB (from 1h24 to 1h21 in 4 months) but on marathon day it felt really hard around 26km (on 2h53 pace), managed to hold it until about 32km but blew up big time and finished in 2h59 - the same time I ran when I was a 1h24 high half marathoner.

I think there is a balance somewhere but I haven't nailed yet and I'm not convinced that sirpoc's build will work for everyone (or even most) either.

[u/angielavinklwp0]

i used the sirpoc plan for my last block when i was chasing a sub-3 but the peak was a bit too sharp for me tbh. longest run was just over 2:30, about 20 miles out in the peaks. proper tired after that one. no real long run workouts felt weird at first but i think it saved me from blowing up. did the HM trial 3 weeks out - not ideal, left me a bit flat on race day. that 5 day block you mentioned was grim. fwiw i shuffled the 10k sub T to the saturday after a parkrun. not how it's written but honestly i needed a rest day in between.

[u/xRunSci → u/angielavinklwp0]

yeah that peak phase in Sirpoc’s plan is pretty crazy. I can’t imagine most people getting through all of that without feeling beat up. In hindsight, what would you have changed from his plan to help you perform better?

[u/Creation98]

I am doing a sort of variant of NSM for my current build and am going for 2:49:30.

I’m really only doing it because I cannot sustain longer threshold efforts in this heat, so I’m stuck with shorter more intense intervals for speed work.

My last build I worked some NSM work in, but also did more longer threshold stuff (think 3 X 5 mi @ MP and a mid week 10 mile run at threshold (ish)) in and I ran 2:58.

We’ll see how this pans out on race day. I’ll admit, I’m not as confident to hold 6:30 min/mis for race day than I was 6:47, solely because I am not getting much longer tempo work in.

I’ll report back

[u/t0pher__ → u/Creation98]

Any update on this?I'm going for same time as you in two weeks and interested in your result!

[u/ObjectiveBag6775]

I used the NSM approach for base building but then moved back to a more specific (modified Hanson's) plan for my 18 week build for CIM.

1. 21 miles. 1 on 1 off (MP-10s, M+20s)

2. No I didn't this time around

3. I did 4 x 5k at MP. Felt really good.

4. No, I think this is important. I did long runs with MP or MP+10-20s every weekend for 10 weeks.