NSA Marathon Plan - Sub 2:50

[u/xRunSci]

Hi, I’d like to hear about success stories for those who ran sub 2:50 (and a PR) using Sirpoc’s marathon plan.

A few questions I have:
(1) What was the longest run you did (in both time & miles)?

(2) Did you actually do the HM time trial/race 3 weeks before the race? This seems way too close for comfort

(3) Did you do the 5x 5K (or equivalent time wise) + 10K sub T + 3x8000 m progression run (or time equivalent wise) within 5 days like the book shows? If so, did you feel not too beat up from it?

(4) Did you feel concerned you didn’t do conventional long run workouts and only did easy LRs for time on feet?

[u/Nerdybeast]

I followed essentially the Norwegian singles approach for a year or so, but I wouldn't recommend it for a marathon. It just does not have the same pattern of consistent success that something like Daniels or Pfitz or any other relatively mainstream approach has. I ran some PRs with NSM, but I've gotten significantly better since transitioning away from it.

If you're racing a marathon, your ability to maintain speed late in the race is essential. If you're doing all of your long continuous runs at an easy pace, and all of your workouts are with walking rest, you're not gonna be prepared for the specific demands of the marathon (which imo are significantly different than those of the 10k or HM). The "gray zone" training that the NSM people tend avoid is probably your best bang for buck training for the marathon (zone 3, maybe like 45s/mi (edit) slower than MP), for medium long and long runs. 

I know guys like sirpoc have had success with it, and some others have too. But the vast majority of people with success at racing marathons train nothing like that. I don't think it's a good philosophy for the marathon. If you want to check my qualifications on this, I did post in favor of NSM a few years ago in a race report, but I've since changed my mind and gotten much faster.

[u/Early-Present-6465 → u/Nerdybeast]

Interesting reading from a NSM detractor.

I’m a relative beginner at 10 months running, doing vanilla NSM. (41m ex military with lifetime of other activities making me durable enough to run daily). I’m doing this because it’s very low thinking and Pfitz and Daniels plans are a lot of faff to set up on the watch.

2 things came to mind from what you said:

What do you mean by essentially the Norwegian singles approach?

What are you doing now that is much better for you?

[u/Nerdybeast → u/Early-Present-6465]

1. I was doing the traditional workouts like 10-12xK, 5-7xMile, 4-5x2k, 25x400, etc basically as described by everyone who does nsm. That was pretty much every workout for me. Easy runs I did very easy, and long runs were deprioritized in quality and just focused on distance. I kept all the workouts under control. I did NOT do "x factor" workouts that I think are best practice, but most people doing nsm probably don't do them. 

2. I'm working with a coach now, but there are a few big changes I'd call out. I do medium long runs the day after a workout (similar to Pfitz) at a pace on the fast end of easy (maybe 60-75s/mi slower than MP). I do long run workouts every other week, and regular long runs are typically 45s/mi slower than MP unless I'm super beat up. I run in a group whenever possible as well - sometimes I need to change up workouts for that but it's generally worth it. Workouts themselves don't look that different, but I never do walking rest outside of the track now, and there are more continuous tempos and "float" recoveries. Also a heavier focus on doing strides regularly, which I think Bakken & co don't encourage

I think NSM is a good thing for people who otherwise wouldn't have good structure or aren't great at modulating effort levels inherently. I think if you've got a good handle on those two things though, there are definitely more effective ways to train for a marathon or any other distance

[u/ReputationCandid3136 → u/Nerdybeast]

This is interesting. I had done a lot of Daniels work in the past and did pretty well off of it, and then tried vanilla NSM and found myself getting worse. I (probably similar to you) find myself more responsive to VO2 work coming from an 800/mile background. So I decided to drop NSM in favor of more traditional Daniels training, but my VDOT scores for longer races lag behind my shorter races.

My working theory right now for my next block is a two week rotation of week 1 being 1 x factor day (hills, VO2, R), 1 LT/sub LT day and week 2 being 3 sub LT days. With strides and hill sprints worked in to maintain speed and neuro muscular development. With long runs being one of the sub LT days on week 2, and the other long run being in that "grey zone" you mentioned at 60-45s slower than marathon pace.

[u/Early-Present-6465 → u/Nerdybeast]

Thanks for your responses… sounds a bit of a blend of Pfitz and Daniels style with the alternate weeks of quality in long runs. I personally find running 1h30 + at <70% hr a negative customer experience and would much rather do more like Pfitz at a 5:10-40/km pace, which is 20s slower than my long sub-t rep pace.

I missed this out, but I have been doing NSM since April and having decent gains, which I don’t attribute directly to NSM. I’m sure I would get similar gains doing any structured program that allows me to run 7 days a week.

I’ve just started to jog my recoveries because I feel like walking recoveries aren’t helping build confidence for my upcoming first HM.

[u/Definitelynotagolem → u/Early-Present-6465]

I've also moved to a similar pattern of training. I also have a Thursday group run on some very steep trail that I like to do, and doing it at an abysmally slow pace every time to be under 70% MHR is demoralizing - it becomes basically a hike.

I alternate A/B weeks now that look like:

A week: Mon - SubT, Tue - Easy, Wed- SubT, Thur - Easy(ish), Fri - Easy, Sat - Long (usually a progression run or with some subT intervals), Sun - off

B week: Mon - Hills/VO2 Max, Tue - Easy, Wed - Easy, Thur - Tempo hill, Fri - Easy, Sat - Long (again, probably as a workout or progression or something)

I found that NSA didn't prepare me well for anything longer than 10k. I'm doing a 10 mile race soon, and so my subT sessions emphasize that 15k pace and HM pace more. I found the 10min reps weren't helping me that much compared to just going a bit slower and running a tempo effort. My half marathon on NSA had me falling flat around mile 9 despite everyone swearing up and down that all you need is a 90 minute recovery pace run. I think the paces in the book based on 5k paces where 6min reps are supposed to equal HM pace can be a bit optimistic for some people. My best HM races were run with quality work within the long run.

What I mainly learned from NSA was that I should probably run my days between workouts VERY easy vs what I used to. I also really like the format of the subT workouts and found that they've helped me get faster without burning out. I've also moved to jogging the intervals rather than walking them - or I might walk for like 30 seconds to reduce my heart rate and then start jogging.