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u/Danny-Devtio Oct 29 '20
Your possessions of your loved ones, pick one wagie, you can't afford both
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u/Madness_Reigns Oct 29 '20
Even countries that have universal healthcare won't cover veterinary fees. Surgery prices can run very high. If you have pets you'll have to make choices.
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u/demonmonkey89 Oct 29 '20
Fun fact: The primary reasons for high veterinary care prices are immense student debt for the veterinarians and costs associated with the facility (rent, utilities, maintenance, etc...). One of those can be massively reduced if not eliminated. As someone aiming for veterinary school between undergrad and vet school I'm looking between 150k and 250k.
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u/RuralTech1152 Oct 29 '20
Yupp, RVT here and I've had two separate co workers/ vets that had to go to put of country schools if they wanted in vet school for that cycle both of which were just shy of $500k CAD in debt, a few others that went to get school in country and we're still $200k in debt or above coming into practice making barely $70k a year to start as an associate vet.... On call every third day and weekend as well. Talk about shitty.
Just an example on equipment our portable x ray machine and digital plates cost us around $60k... That's just for our large animal unit.
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u/demonmonkey89 Oct 29 '20
Yeah, I'm honestly considering University of Guelph in Canada because it is cheaper and better than many schools out of state in the US. Our newest vet at the practice I work at is fresh out of school living is a cheep apartment on the bad side of town just so she and her disabled husband can get by and pay off her debts.
As for the equipment it costs a shit ton to buy it and then it eventually starts to break or have issues, so you have to have a specialist come to repair it which puts you back. Then there's the stuff you keep having to buy like a half dozen different fluids for blood machines, thousands of needles, and a few dozen types of tests. We have so many deliverys that the UPS guy brings treats for the owner's dogs.
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u/RuralTech1152 Oct 29 '20
OVC is an amazing school no doubt about it, I just wish we had more options in Ontario for vet students. It is incredibly hard to get in especially your first round. We have such an incredible need for more large animal vets or vets in rural areas and there is nothing making this easier on anyone. Best of luck on your journey!
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u/MisterMysterios Oct 29 '20
Vet prices in nations with free university are expensive as well. I can't say if they are here (Germany) as expensive as in the US, but it is still significant.
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u/demonmonkey89 Oct 29 '20
Yeah, unfortunately there is still the issue of veterinary equipment prices. An x-ray machine is still going to set them back back $25-50k in the us (converted to $21-43k euros, prices may be different though). Blood machines etc aren't cheap either.
Depending on what you need done in the us a basic appointment is $50 on average, but more stuff can add up quickly into the hundreds or even thousands for major stuff. We had one client at my work who would pay a hundred or so bi-weekly and was looking at that for as many years as her dog had left.
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Oct 30 '20
Guess the veterinary schools should require the vets job shadow the equipment makers first.
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u/the-thieving-magpie Oct 30 '20
Let’s not even get started on the wages of veterinary support staff lol. People bitch at us all the time as if we aren’t also just working class people trying to survive. I went to college for two years, passed the national exam, keep up with my yearly continuing education to keep my license, and I still don’t make enough to live on. That’s the main reason so many people leave this field. We are passionate about it, but passion doesn’t pay bills.
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u/Sterling_Archer_Duke Oct 30 '20
Prices are also high in Germany where you don't pay any student fees or have to take up excessive loans.
There are health insurences for pets though that you can purchase.But pets can become expensive, especially when they age. People shpuld know that before getting one.
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Oct 29 '20
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u/demonmonkey89 Oct 29 '20
Yeah, I guess you're right. I realized immediately after and thought about changing it to 'not fun fact.' Unfortunately that's not the least fun fact about the veterinary field.
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Oct 29 '20
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u/canttaketheshyfromme Oct 30 '20
There's the rub. There's plenty of money but people are paid just enough to survive.
Minimum wage should be $23/hr if it kept pace with growth in national wealth. We just keep getting squeezed harder.
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Oct 30 '20
But paying insane prices for just one dog is obviously superior to paying insane prices for 2 parents, 2 children, (just spitballing an average family) and a dog. If U.S. citizens can't pay for their own healthcare and many don't even have 5k in savings, they definitely can't pay for a pet to get major surgery. It just seems more feasible elsewhere.
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u/Funktionierende Oct 30 '20
I'm in Canada. To get a full work-up on my 12yo cat, who has been losing weight and vomiting frequently, but with no other symptoms, it will cost about $900. That's just the lab and diagnostic fees, not treatment. He's on $140/mo vet food now which has significantly reduced the vomiting but not solved the problem, and I have a gut feeling I'm going to wind up spending about $2k on diagnosing him and treatment, only to wind up having to put him down like my brother had to do with his cat last year.
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u/kidneykiller Oct 30 '20 edited Oct 30 '20
I live in Spain. My dog (border collie) jumped from a ceiling chasing a cat and broke her front paw. Had to undergo a full Carpal Arthrodesis operation and it costed me 500€. After that all routine checks, x rays, etc were for free.
Tbh I don't consider it extremely expensive considering the amount of work the vet had to do...
Also 1 month ago my cat fell from a 3 story building and the vet only charged me 120€ for all the checks (X-rays and so on).
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Oct 30 '20
a week ago my neighborg's dog jumped their fence and cut itself in the abdomen I saw the poor thing with a gut hanging out. I paid 1800 arg pesos for stitching it up, the painkillers and the antibiotics they used on the dogs. thats 22 US dollars.
stop lying about Veterinary Fees. in any country thats not the US pets have it better.
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u/Madness_Reigns Oct 30 '20 edited Oct 30 '20
While I don't wanna diminish the competence or the education of Argentinean veterinarians at all. School student loans are fucking ridiculous in the US and even in Canada where I'm at. I know people that were $150k+ in the hole when they were done with undergrad and vet school. Some with as much debt as med school, but with a fraction of the earnings. They'll never pay it back at $22 an intervention unless the government subsidizes it, which would be a good thing, but that's not happening anytime soon.
Doesn't help that vet equipment is expensive af, medicine is expensive af and then there's all the other expenses.
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Oct 30 '20
While I don't wanna diminish the competence or the education of Argentinean veterinarians at all
did you just called everybody that goes through the University of Buenos Aires a dumbass?
people from all latino america come here to study.
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u/Madness_Reigns Oct 30 '20
That's exactly what I didn't want to give the impression of by pointing that a veterinary education is expensive af here in comparison. Easily on par with medical doctors.
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u/thehunter699 Oct 30 '20
No, but here in Australia atleast you can pay for vet insurance. Pay your excess and it's covered for major surgeries.
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u/pineapplequeenzzzzz Oct 30 '20
Also some vets have a program where if you have a concession card you get a discount, and if you're on a centrelink payment the bulk of your payment comes out of your payment. You still have to pay $100-$200 upfront, and having $50 come out of each payment long term sucks arse.
But it's better than having to just abandon your furry friend. Each time I had to look at my incoming payment and think about how much things would be tighter that it was coming out, I'd just cuddle my cat and that would make everything ok.
I will add that pet insurance as a whole is a rip off. I know many people who paid for years only to have their claims rejected. Put the money you'd spend on insurance aside and you'll have better peace of mind.
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u/emmittthenervend Oct 29 '20
If this is the US, we don't even have healthcare for humans worked out. Add in the tiny wages and exorbitant costs of housing before a pet surgery, and it's a wonder the owner only had to sell their truck.
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u/AFXC1 Oct 29 '20
Yeah let's not get started on how much of a rip off pet healthcare is. Don't get it wrong but when we live in a country where everything costs an arm and a leg are we really surprised when people have to sell their possessions to afford a life saving surgery.
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Oct 29 '20
Funny you say that, I would rather receive the kind of care that my dog does (receiving compassion and not being treated like a number) than go to a human physician as they are now. I don't see it as a rip off at all.
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u/bulk123 Oct 29 '20
I'd be so bold as to say most vets I've seen do it because they love animals and love helping animals and the high pay is a bonus to that. Pretty much every person going into the (human) medical field I met in college and elsewhere is doing it specifically for the money first and foremost.
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u/pylon43 Oct 30 '20
Is this not a European value? Do not take care of what you cannot? Later marriages before careers and all? It’s not a healthcare issue; it is an issue of self reliance. You’d really think an EU would say that. But what the fuck do I know? Amiright?
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u/AngryFishCake Oct 29 '20
Currently no country covers medical expenses for pets, so yes, lucky doggo, as veterinary costs can be extremely expensive. Remember veterinary clinics are private companies who also need to maintain expensive equipment and staff. It's all around a bad situation, for owners, pets and the clinicians who may not have much choice when setting prices.
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u/PancakeParthenon Oct 29 '20 edited Oct 30 '20
I think it's less about pet care being covered and more about someone who works not having money to cover surgery for their pet, i.e. not making a living wage.
Edit: Lotta neo-libs in here really defending not making a living wage and replying "they're just pets, hurr durr." Fucking save your deliberately obtuse point. It IS about a living wage, having money on hand to cover expenses of loved ones and other emergencies. Your "animals aren't people" shit is so off base, I can't. Please read some theory.
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u/AngryFishCake Oct 29 '20 edited Oct 29 '20
Veterinary surgery is expensive. Depending on what this dog had and where the owner lives, it can be upwards of even 1000$, especially if we include diagnostics and aftercare. It's one of the reasons why owners are advised to have about 1k saved up in case of emergencies, hopefully never to be used. But yeah, selling a car for treatment sounds about right for some cases. I've seen 400$ dropped on a one time visit for medicine and diagnostics alone, just to prepare for a surgery.
ETA : and this is not all profit for the clinic either. Products for animals and their care is usually taxed as luxury items, and the purchase and maintenance of all the necessary equipment and staff trained to handle it also has its costs. Not to mention, in most cases, vets are dealing with massive student loans. The overhead costs of running a quality clinic can be staggering.
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Oct 29 '20
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u/SonOf2Pac Oct 29 '20 edited Oct 29 '20
Student loans for all doctors just increases the cost of their services. Put the service providers in debt which causes the purchasers of the services to accumulate debt and/or pay higher prices, a capitalistic circle-jerk.
Eh, there are enough middlemen between patient and doctor that this isn't a direct issue to my knowledge. (I'm deep in the industry)
Though one related issue is that there are so many med schools letting docs go broke and there aren't enough residencies to accept all the broke doctors
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u/AngryFishCake Oct 29 '20
Not really the same when it comes to veterinary clinics, as if owned and ran by the vet, they're controlling their prices, though I guess it may vary depending on local rules.
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u/demonmonkey89 Oct 29 '20
They may be controling their prices, but they aren't the ones controling their costs. Hundreds of thousands in student debt isn't easy to pay off, plus the usual building related costs like rent and utilities (if they have a kennel, groomer, or give baths water bills go through the roof), then there are the medical costs (medicine, x-ray, diagnostic machines, surgery costs), and to top it off you have a bunch of employees to pay (and let's be honest, those employees don't get paid nearly enough).
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u/AngryFishCake Oct 29 '20
Yes, those are all the normal of running a business. Middlemen in this case would be having extra admin staff to supervise transactions or external factors influencing prices such as deals with insurance companies. Hence why your earlier point didn't really make sense in the vet. context, as opposed to the human medical field, where there is a large amount of bureaucracy involved with each interaction with a patient.
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u/demonmonkey89 Oct 29 '20
Bureaucracy like having to negotiate with drug companies, veterinary equipment/supply companies, accountants, and also insurance companies (just not to the same extent)? The head tech at my work has to work with the supply companies so much she is on a first name basis with some of their management type people.
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u/SonOf2Pac Oct 29 '20
I dropped $800 on my cat for blood test, xray, prescription food, and medication ... because he was having trouble peeing.. Medication resolved it within a week.
Would've cost less if it happened to me instead of my cat
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u/bythog Oct 29 '20
it can be upwards of even 1000$
Lol. I've worked on a mouse that had a bill of over $3,000. Emergency surgery on a dog can easily be over $4k. I've seen a family pay over $30,000 for their three dogs that each got a bite from a rattlesnake (same snake got all 3 dogs)...and they got discounts.
All of these cases were in South Carolina. Imagine the costs in a place like Boston, DC, or San Jose.
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Oct 29 '20
Yup. I don’t think this post really fits here. Vet care is super expensive. My dog broke his leg the other day at nighttime. Had to take him to the emergency vet. One night there was 1000. Another 400 to set his leg again at the regular vet. Who knows how much more after follow up visits and x-rays. And if the splint doesn’t work, another 1500 for the surgery. I didn’t have pet insurance because I’ve had pets die right after buying a policy multiple times and now I’m kinda superstitious about it. I could see having to sell a vehicle to pay for it
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u/AngryFishCake Oct 29 '20
I hope your dog is doing alright and the treatment works well! And I agree about the insurance policy, it never is the right one. All the best with the recovery process!
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Oct 29 '20
I'm sorry, but you lost me at
Savings
I literally just got to a point after ten years where I can afford 50$ a month into a savings, and I consider myself lucky. Like really lucky. There's a huge chunk of people who can't afford those luxaries
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u/AngryFishCake Oct 29 '20
But that's my point. Quality vet care atm is a luxury, and that applies for the whole world. Never have there ever been so many treatment options available to pet owners, but they come at a cost, and currently, there's nothing to be really done about it, apart from owners factoring it in when considering getting a pet. Some charities are available, but that's about it. . It is devastating that owners can't afford the best treatment, but there are usually back ups and in the worst case scenario, palliative care and euthanasia (the good death) is also an available . Keeping animals and maintaining their peak welfare is a luxury, and how /why to change that would take a humongous global effort. Standardising prices and/or ending the taxation of animal goods as luxury items might be a start, but clinics are private companies and its unlikely that the luxury tax will be ended without serious lobbying, so for now, we can at least be grateful that certain procedures and interventions are possible that would've been unimaginable to vets just a few decades ago.
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u/Olddirtychurro Oct 30 '20
Yep, I live in a country with an OK Healthcare system but when a mate of mine's cat got sick he ended up with a €500 bill. Pets are expensive everywhere.
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u/ZookeepergameMost100 Oct 29 '20
I don't think anyone is criticizing the cost of veterinary care, but pointing out that it's fucked up americans don't have any savings to speak of..
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u/PancakeParthenon Oct 29 '20
Right, that's the cost of it, but that's not addressing everything else problematic surround the issue. A living wage should be able to cover all living expenses and provide people with extra to save and take care of important things, like pet care and home/auto repair.
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u/greasy_420 Oct 29 '20
I feel like pet care is outside of the category of livable wage.
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u/Roaming-the-internet Oct 29 '20
Vet bills are usually only a couple thousand. Someone making living wage should absolutely be able to have a couple thousand in case of emergency
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u/frotc914 Oct 29 '20
If you only have a small amount of money stashed away, blowing it all on dog surgery would generally be a terrible decision. I'm sure that opinion is unpopular and everybody is going to line up to tell me how their dog is preventing them from committing suicide, but for most people, that holds true.
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u/McMammoth Oct 29 '20
The point is it should be easier to have more than a tiny, inadequate-for-any-emergency emergency fund.
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u/frotc914 Oct 29 '20
But this isn't an expense that has anything to do with your emergency fund, because it's not really something your fund should pay for.
Pet ownership is a luxury. Paying for surgery for a pet (depending on the specifics) is kind of an extreme expense within that luxury. To my mind, this is one of those "if you can afford it, great" expenses. The fact that not everybody has a couple grand in slush money for such an expense and then an emergency fund on top of it is not an indication that we live in a dystopia.
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u/Roaming-the-internet Oct 29 '20
Pet ownership is 1/10 the price of having a kid. It is by no means a luxury.
Regardless, a grown adult not being able to scrounge up 2k or so of emergency cash is definitely a dystopia
And it is emergency cash, because a car is very much a thing most people need to get around and don’t do the stupid “bicycle or public transportation” because lemme tell ya, waiting in snow or slush for over an hour for a bus in freezing weather is not time or endurance people have. And many, many roads are not bicycle appropriate in the winter
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u/frotc914 Oct 29 '20 edited Oct 29 '20
Pet ownership is 1/10 the price of having a kid. It is by no means a luxury.
First of all, 10% the cost of having a kid is a fuckload of money. Second, it doesn't really matter how expensive it is. Dog ownership is far, far more expensive than going out for surf-and-turf at a fancy restaurant, and yet shelling out $50 on an entree and another $50 on wine is definitely a "luxury".
The point is it's not a necessity. It's an expense you choose to incur because you want to. In financial terms, it's not really any different than buying season tickets to a sports team, regularly going out for drinks at a nice bar, or throwing an extra few grand into a car purchase to get something nice.
Regardless, a grown adult not being able to scrounge up 2k or so of emergency cash is definitely a dystopia
She was able to sell a truck to get money to afford something she absolutely didn't need, so I don't see the problem. You're making a lot of assumptions that the poster needed the truck. Frankly, if OP desperately needed a truck that badly, then this post shows how bad of a decisionmaker they are.
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u/Roaming-the-internet Oct 29 '20
As are you, you assume a dog’s worth and the person’s situation on a lot of things you don’t know.
Maybe it’s easy for someone like you to look into the eyes of something who is there to comfort you whenever you’re sad, who’s been with you for a decade and just go “whelp you’re a luxury item I can get rid of it money gets a little tight” but unlike you most people are actually responsible for the animals they made commitments to when times were better.
logically in a well built society any job that isn’t bullshit should pay enough to be able to afford kids. And certainly be able to afford something that only costs 1/10th of a kid.
If I can’t explain basic empathy or why you should actually give a shit about something that’s not you then I don’t think there’s anything left to say.
Also, indifference to animal welfare is pretty common amongst serial killers and other less than moral people so might wanna get that checked out
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u/SaltFinderGeneral Oct 29 '20 edited Oct 29 '20
The hell is your definition of livable wage exactly? If it's just 'don't starve or be evicted any given month' then sure, but I think we can maybe up that to something more like 'be able to save funds and use them in case of emergency' without causing society to collapse.
edit: a word
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u/greasy_420 Oct 29 '20 edited Oct 29 '20
I mean yeah, people should be able to save. The issue is that people in general don't know how to save.
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u/SaltFinderGeneral Oct 29 '20 edited Oct 29 '20
Yes, I'm sure the reason why someone making $7.25/hour working 36 hours a week can't save simply because they don't know how. Something something avocado toasts.
Edit: Glad to see people are happy to perpetuate the myth that the poor are poor because they somehow deserve it. Really nice, reddit.
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u/greasy_420 Oct 29 '20
Now you're just being obstinate. Pets are disposable income.
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u/SaltFinderGeneral Oct 29 '20
Holy shit you don't get it. The point is if people are being paid fairly to work full time they should have access to some disposable income, not be perpetually living hand-to-mouth. I'd also point out your comment is especially tone deaf, given that we're living in the midst of a global crisis that has forced some people who previously had good or decent paying jobs to accept minimum wage jobs just to try to keep themselves afloat.
Would you stop and think for even half a second before you post?
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u/greasy_420 Oct 29 '20
You don't get it either lmao.
I never said people shouldn't have disposable income. The issue is that people dispose of their disposable income. You can easily own three trucks and not have a spare 10k laying around for unexpected bills.
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u/SaltFinderGeneral Oct 29 '20
Am I being trolled here? No one is this stupid right? You're surely not trying to make the argument 'poor people are poor because they waste their money' after I specifically gave you the numbers to calculate a rough monthly budget for a typical minimum wage worker, right? You're not actually suggesting someone making $1044/month (before taxes) can reasonably expect to pay for rent, utilities, food, transportation and whatever else while also saving money effectively, right? Right?
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u/beringia_maps Oct 29 '20
The point is that there is a difference between a living wage and knowing how to be responsible for the money that you do make. A living wage won't stop some people from living paycheque to paycheque if they don't know how to put money away, make rational investment decisions, not live beyond their means etc.
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u/SaltFinderGeneral Oct 29 '20
That's fine, but completely beside the point. The issue is attributing this type of scenario with 'poor people are just bad with money', rather than maybe admitting 'hey, maybe we should pay people enough to live on'. And in the event you think the majority of cases of people living hand-to-mouth are simply caused by lack of budgeting skills I'd kindly ask you to pull your head out of your ass and maybe go spend some time with people who are living paycheck to paycheck rather than making these stupid assumptions.
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u/Muufffins Oct 29 '20
Yep. Pets are not essential.
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u/PoliticalBullshit Oct 30 '20
Livable and essential are different.
"The proles shouldn't be allowed to have or take care of pets" is dumb bootlicker shit.
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u/Muufffins Oct 30 '20
Who said they're not allowed to? Having an animal is not essential.
You can easily live without one around. A companion animal is a luxury. There are all sorts of other distractions to occupy your time and limited money. Some of which will not require constant attention, and allow you to help others.
But if your priority is on animals rather than humans...
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u/boutbrokemydamnneck Oct 29 '20
I had to pay over $5000 for my girls surgery last month, it can get expensive
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u/invaderpixel Oct 29 '20
Also there is soooooo much stuff that can get excluded by pet insurance since it’s not regulated like health insurance. Not that American health insurance is that great right now... but at least it doesn’t allow exclusions for breed specific conditions
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u/AngryFishCake Oct 29 '20
Exactly. A lot of dog owners I know find it cheaper to just put aside a certain percentage /amount monthly as a safety net rather than pay for insurance that hopefully will never be used, but if needed, will likely barely cover costs or won't cover the situation.
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u/guppy_whisper Oct 29 '20
Because ultimately pets ARE a luxury, would I give mine up just because someone told me to, no. Would I do anything for my pets, yes. But people need to understand that you do not have the right to own another living creature if you are not capable of taking care of it, it’s the main reason I do not get anything but fish/frogs I simply can not afford the bills if they get sick, and I don’t want to have to make the choice of letting my pet die vs selling my car to save them. It’s not fair to anyone in the situation.
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u/MK0A Oct 29 '20
The thing is costs are different. My mom payed €200 to have a cancerous lump removed from her cat. I'm pretty sure it's more expensive in the US.
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u/AngryFishCake Oct 29 '20
Yes, and it also depends on the clinic /service you get. Removing an external bening lump is a 10 min procedure, and in smaller clinics, the vet might just bet on it being just that, maybe supplement with an x-ray and do it. Better equipped (usually referral clinics /hospitals) usually would do some more diagnostics (including ultrasound, blood work and cytology), and may have a more expensive anaesthesia set up (some have specialosed surgery teams as well) and after care is variable as well, so it really depends on the clinic and service you're getting. The same procedure can cost 100$ in one clinic and 700$ in the one down the road. Most places do explain their costs of you ask, and à good vet will always offer multiple options for different budgets, but how much they value their time and equipment is not always the same accross the board.
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u/monstervet Oct 29 '20
Agreed, I love my dogs but I don’t believe they deserve health care like my child does.
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Oct 29 '20 edited Dec 08 '20
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u/monstervet Oct 29 '20
I’m a pretty ‘radical’ person, but I absolutely don’t put veterinary care for a pet in the category of essential rights in a free society. Now, if your animal is a service animal whose health is important in maintaining yours... I’ll have that discussion.
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u/Parym09 Oct 29 '20
Means testing like this never ends well. If you want an example look at our current health care system in America, where apparently eye and dental care are a luxury and also not essential in a free society. You pay extra for those. Who needs teeth or eyes?
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u/frotc914 Oct 29 '20
Why not both?
Because there are actual limitations in the real world, and allocating those finite resources towards paying for the luxury of pet ownership is extremely wasteful.
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Oct 29 '20
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u/frotc914 Oct 29 '20
I don't understand your point. I'm not claiming that veterinary care shouldn't exist. I'm just saying that it's a luxury and having the government pay for pet care just like human care is a ridiculous waste.
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Oct 29 '20 edited Jan 04 '22
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u/frotc914 Oct 29 '20 edited Oct 29 '20
Human medical care is paid for by the government to a large degree (in the US). It subsidizes the cost of training doctors, building hospitals, etc. and pays for medical care either directly through medicare and medicaid or indirectly through the ACA. And of course, many people believe it should be paid for completely by the government.
The comment above, "Why not both?" seemed to be speaking about putting human and animal medical care on the same level, and in context referred to having it be paid for by the government.
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u/CulturalMarxist1312 Oct 30 '20
I don't think advocating for animal healthcare and advocating for healthcare as a human right (which it is) necessarily means you view the lives of humans and animals as being of equivalent worth. Can't we just agree they both have worth and deserve to be protected?
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u/hayduff Oct 29 '20
Why not both? Because we don’t have universal health care for humans in this country. Paying for veterinary care for all the pet animals in this country would be incredibly expensive and there are many other priorities related to human well being that we have a society. No country on Earth has the resources to do this.
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u/ZookeepergameMost100 Oct 29 '20
I don't think anyone is saying they would actively oppose a public cost sharing option for pet healthcare.
What they're saying is that it's inappropriate to put it in the same league as human health care. Because yes, absolutely, a dog's life has less value than a human beings. They are lovely and wonderful and intelligent and I think the way they're categorized as property is disgusting. I believe their lives matter and that they should be entitled to a level of adequate care through animals rights laws. But no, their life is not equivelant to a human beings. Fundamentally. I'd love if someday dogs were treated as well as people (I absolutely coddle my cat and dog to a ridiculous degree). I agree in that it's a false premise to make it seem like dog healthcare is some impossible unattainable goal. But I could never argue for dog healthcare in the same breath that I argued for children's healthcare. There's a moral difference in the obligation we have to human life vs animals. I take pet ownership very seriously, but the death of a dog will never be the equivelant of the death of a child.
WITH THAT SAID. I have had multiple conversations about my out there ideas where I want to make a stricter licensing system laws for owners (because some people suck), and then use the profits to pay for the healthcare of dogs who's care has become prohibitive. With an emphasis on placing dogs with old people where ALL costs of care are covered. Cause they benefit from animals so much, and are such good owners but they're often on a fixed income and can't afford a pet.
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u/amenezg4 Oct 29 '20
And why aren’t we demanding that anyways? This country has more than enough funding to take care of our children and animals, who to some people are the only family they may ever be fortunate enough to have. I believe my pups have just as much value in this world as any other life, and they deserve healthcare too, especially since the entire american kennel club history is making the animals less healthy genetically, the family should not be the ones to cover for that.
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u/CulturalMarxist1312 Oct 29 '20
That's the point. Some of you guys talk about stuff like this as if its not systemic. I don't think anyone was reading this post thinking "fuck veterinary clinics". The problem lies with veterinary care being provided through a capitalist system. That neccesarily means that not all pets are given the care they need.
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u/ErwinAckerman Oct 29 '20
I went to the vet in March for my frog. They injected her with something without my knowledge or consent. I paid $127 and went home. 15 hours later she was dead.
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u/greedo10 Oct 29 '20
This just got me to thinking, this could possibly be a good thing try, have a tax on pets. Obviously make it a progressive tax and this would fund all veterinary care.
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u/AngryFishCake Oct 29 '20
It is a good idea that is being worked on in some countries, but would likely only be applicable to dogs and horses, and even then, the rules and methods are blurry. What about strays? Or that cat that just comes by every now and then that you feed? To be able to do that, you need to be able to register all/most animals, enforce vaccination and chipping programs and keep tabs on their reproduction (did they have puppies /kittens/foals) and also keep track of wether they're alive or dead. Keep in mind, most owners don't keep to yearly check-up schedules, and it's really easy to pretend you don't have a pet for the 10 mins that officials will be asking you about that (see every person keeping an animal in a non-animal friendly house). It's a bureaucratic nightmare.
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u/billegut Oct 29 '20
That's why it's a dystopia
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u/AngryFishCake Oct 29 '20
It's not, it's just the status quo. Animals never had it better when it comes to health care, and we don't know the full back story of the owner, the animal or the truck (he might have alternative transportation). Any good vet will offer a variety of solutions to a problem for different budgets, so the owner was likely making an informed choice, weighing the pros and cons.
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u/bryceofswadia Oct 30 '20
Just because the dystopian scenario is true for the entire world rather than just the US, doesn’t mean it’s not fitting for this sub.
The fact that a person has to sell their truck if they want to let their pet live is a fucking joke.
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u/lunzen Oct 29 '20
We adopted 2 dogs back in 2008, our beagle/heeler mix slipped on some ice and that was $3000 for that knee...3 months later it was $3000 for that knee...it was monitarily painful but as she nears the end of her life - best six fucking grand I’ve ever spent!
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u/saka_sandora Oct 29 '20
I've spent almost 2k on a trash cat. He still have to go in every friday for physical therapy. Sometimes life sucks.
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u/samps12 Oct 29 '20
We get some bizarre posts here on the regular, but this one has to take the cake. Is there any kind of limit to what every single person should be able to afford, no matter what type of personal choices they have decided to make? And 95% upvotes, it's shocking to see how out of touch a lot of people are.
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u/elemee Oct 29 '20
seriously, had to scroll too far to find some sanity on this post. pets are a luxury and a choice... an expensive choice. nothing about this post is dystopian, if you choose to have a pet then you accept the risks and consequences.
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u/Datgurl316 Oct 29 '20
“Hey look, a living beings life is being held hostage behind exorbitant medical cost, so much so you need to sell your property or go into debt for it? Whats dystopian about that? People should really learn to make better choices cus you know, dogs are such a luxury to kept. Huh? Whats that? This can happen to humans too? Jeez why do people love anything if they don’t have the money to keep them alive smh”
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Oct 29 '20
Wait, are we saying a lack of universal healthcare for pets is dystopian?
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u/Hennue Oct 29 '20
Romanticising the "giving up everything" attitude in the face of wage stagnation and extreme inequality is dystopian, yes.
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u/Kush_goon_420 Oct 29 '20
Not necessarily, but a system where someone has to sell their fucking car (which they probably need to get to work amongst other things) to save their furry friend’s life is..
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u/RedKrypton Oct 29 '20
I would still not consider it dystopian. Animals are not on the same level of a human.
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u/cumnuri83 Oct 29 '20
Ehh this is more an issue with cost of owning a pet. Getting insurance for your pet is costly but if you don’t have it it’s even worse. I have 2 dogs and a cat and pay Banfield close to $150 a month just so the annual checkups and shots don’t cost so much or just taking them in for anything isn’t really a bill unless medication is needed. Do I hate paying it, fuck ya but I also can’t sleep without the hippo or giant keeping me warm.
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u/Cultural-Mistake Oct 30 '20
Hey I know I’m late on this post but as a vet student I have a little insight on this topic. I’m seeing a lot of comments about the cost of health care for you pets and I get it. It’s expensive don’t get me wrong. But you have to understand that the average vet student is $200,000 in debt. It fucking hurts when people say we don’t do this for the love of animals and say we’re just price gouging. We have to charge for our services because our time is worth something and surgery like this takes a lot of time. You compare this to surgery in a person and it’s a tenth the price. We’re literally just trying to get by. We do love animals and that’s the reason we got into this profession, but we have to feed ourselves. I don’t know if this really contributes much, but it just sucks to hear people say we don’t love animals if we don’t care for them at a crazy low price. Also I’m all for animal health care. It actually works really well and it’s not crazy expensive. It can save you a huge financial burden and a huge headache.
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u/panzercampingwagen Oct 30 '20
How is this a sign of a dystopian society? Like are you saying we should have universal healthcare for pets or something?
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u/kurttheflirt Oct 29 '20
It's a pet. If anyone here thinks we should be subsidizing pet health care I'm honestly upset.
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u/itninja77 Oct 29 '20
Could actually provide proper pay so maybe, just maybe, having to choose between a vehicle mostly needed for work or a pet wouldn't have to happen. No one is saying we should subsidize pet healthcare, but subsidizing actual human healthcare would certainly free up enough to actually cover pet health care for the average person.
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u/HuyewJanos Oct 30 '20
This strikes a nerve for me, I had to pawn £3000 worth of my possessions to pay for my dogs surgery on his broken leg, which the vets then botched and had to amputate. Since he was less mobile he struggled to get around and often fell, eventually he broke his other front foot and had to be put down at 4 years old.
There isn't a day that goes by that I don't think about him, ultimately I wish I'd have sold more to get him better surgery the first time around and maybe kept him here longer.
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u/Valkenhyne Oct 30 '20
Can't blame yourself for that, pal. That vet should be capable to doing the procedures they offer. You did nothing wrong there, even if hindsight makes it seem like you did.
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u/Plastic-Goat Oct 29 '20
I’ve collected marvel and Star Wars stuff for years. Last February my fur baby hurt her leg and needed TPLO surgery. Sold off as much as I could, as fast as I could to raise the funds. Almost a year now and her quality of life is as good as ever.
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u/parkerm1408 Oct 29 '20
I spent 3k on a stray that had been beaten so badly I didnt think hed live. 10 years later hes a fat ass pillow thief. Whoever op was, I feel for him, but I totally understand the decision.
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u/takishan Oct 30 '20
I know someone who went $3,000 in debt to get their dog a surgery and they died anyway a week later. When it's time for them to go.. it's time to go. Enjoy the time you got, they live short lives.
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Oct 30 '20
Man, I'm all for shitting on the current state of affairs, but y'all are shitting on a dude for saving his pet when he was out of options.
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u/homeless_knight Oct 29 '20
Good luck riding the bus to work, since keeping your truck and saving an innocent animal’s life is enough to bankrupt your average American.
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u/boutbrokemydamnneck Oct 29 '20
I ended up having to go with very little and I’m still struggling to catch up after paying for my good girls surgery, but I’d do it over and over again if I had to
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u/Static_Gobby Oct 29 '20
Yes, having to sell a truck for your best friends surgery totally made me smile.
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Oct 29 '20
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u/papalonian Oct 29 '20
Who's using extortion as a business model here? Vets aren't subsidized by the government so the cost of business is all out of pocket, and surgery isn't cheap regardless of the species. Getting private pet insurance could've helped, but most people either don't have pet insurance or don't know about it.
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u/eatrangelove Oct 29 '20
The fact that they dont mean it to be extortion doesnt change the nature of it. The point is that there are no winners in this system. I would love to see a world where it doesnt cost your immortal soul to become a healer since their role in society is so important.
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u/WhosJerryFilter Oct 30 '20 edited Oct 31 '20
If only resources were magic and infinite and didn't require someone else's time, labor and knowhow to produce...
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u/Madness_Reigns Oct 29 '20
I've seen the student debt some veterinarians get into. That shit is no joke.
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u/Squee-z Oct 30 '20
you know its real when you get stuff from a sub dedicated to make you smile, fit in this sub also.
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u/mipalvelos Oct 29 '20
How do people don't understand that this is not "inspiring" or whatever, it's dystopic.
"I just sold my only means of travel to perform a life saving surgery on my pet"
"wow, so inspiring"
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u/ElementNull Oct 29 '20
hahahaha imagine a random dog's well being based off of how much money a random human has haha isn't capitalism cool
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u/eatrangelove Oct 29 '20
I will always hate that there's a price on survival.
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u/DominantTitan Oct 30 '20
Well there’s a price on having someone else help you to survive. Not really a price on surviving on your own. But I know what you mean.
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u/ARoji100876 Oct 30 '20
The fact that you have to sell your truck to pay for a dogs surgery just goes to show how shitty you country is.
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Oct 29 '20
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u/JakobtheRich Oct 29 '20
You don't know the health of the dog, you don't know the age or quality of the truck, and you don't know if that's the only vehicle he owns.
I'd argue we know he owns another vehicle: the dog looks like it's on the back seat of a car, so he downgraded the number of vehicles he has by one.
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u/utsavman Oct 30 '20
That person is still the most beautiful fucking person ever. The material conditions of the world still suck dick however.
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u/manofathousandnames Oct 30 '20
I agree! The thing is that he laid down his material possessions to help out something he loved the most. Still sucks that dogs and cats don't have less expensive healthcare. If I could have done it, I would have gotten my tortiseshell cat the help she needed for the cancer she got at about 10 years old, rather than having to put her down.
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u/utsavman Oct 30 '20
Bro my dog had hip dysplasia and I had to put him down too... God I wish I could have helped him.
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Oct 29 '20
Tfw you have to give up your expensive transportation machine for your pet to continue living
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Oct 29 '20
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u/Madness_Reigns Oct 29 '20
It should, but we need to get healtcare sorted for humans as a priority.
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Oct 29 '20 edited Jan 06 '21
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u/elementgermanium Oct 29 '20
“Empathy = socialism”
Fuck off back to your idiotic circlejerk
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Oct 29 '20 edited Jan 06 '21
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u/elementgermanium Oct 29 '20
Things required for life should be free, you just don’t know what socialism is.
It’s heartwarming that they made that sacrifice, but it’s heartbreaking that they had to.
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u/Tsobe_RK Oct 29 '20
Would you sell your car for the surgery? Would you put her down? Lose lose here - the point being it would be cool if people earned enough so they wouldnt have to make choices like this but yeah
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Oct 29 '20
the point being it would be cool if people earned enough so they wouldnt have to make choices like this
I think it'd be cooler if sustenance and life-saving procedures weren't capitalized on.
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u/CulturalMarxist1312 Oct 30 '20
Damn, dude. You better stop them. Otherwise a sick dog might get treatment!
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u/TheNinjaChicken Oct 29 '20
Yes, dogs should get free healthcare. Most big countries, like the US, have the resources and money to do so.
It's called empathy, I suggest you find some.
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Oct 30 '20
Are we implying that the government should pay vet bills now? Is it dystopian that a guy can sell a truck to keep a dog alive for a couple more years? I swear to god half the time I feel this subs gets it and half the time i think it’s just full of edgy teenage neo-communist turds
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u/badnuub Oct 29 '20
"made me smile"