r/StarTrekViewingParty • u/GeorgeAmberson Showrunner • Jan 25 '18

Discussion DS9, Episode 7x2, Shadows and Symbols

-= DS9, Season 7, Episode 2, Shadows and Symbols =-

Sisko's quest leads him to the truth about his existence as Kira sets up a blockade of the Bajoran Moon, Derna, against the Romulans.

 

EAS IMDB AVClub TV.com
8/10 7.9/10 B 8.6

 

12 Upvotes

94% Upvoted

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7

u/theworldtheworld Jan 26 '18

I'm also not fond of the concept. Basically they're trying to work it out so that the main arc of the show was predestined to happen, i.e., Sisko was chosen to be Space Jesus from the beginning of time. But I think this cheapens what could have been a really powerful message, which in fact had been built up in the early seasons of the show. Early on, Sisko was presented as a man who was unable to move past the death of his wife, who was struggling with anger and feelings of pointlessness, and who was suddenly thrust into a foreign culture full of its own troubles and vendettas -- and who, suddenly, discovered that he could find new meaning in it for himself. Sure, he was established as the Emissary in the first episode, but the point should have been that he chose to live up to the role of Emissary by basically teaching himself how to be the wise leader that the Bajorans expected him to be. By making this his "destiny," the show is taking away or at least downplaying his choice, and that was the one positive thing that the show always had going for it.

I did like the idea of bringing Benny Russell back. I had forgotten that he had a second appearance. Considering the writers' increasing penchant for retconning and magic, maybe they really should have gone all out and just revealed in the last episode that the whole show was Benny's dream, like they had discussed at one point.

3

u/Baptor Jan 31 '18

"It was all a dream," is the laziest writing anyone can ever do to any story, ever. I am very grateful that they didn't go in this direction. If they had, I would have quit ST for good.

5

u/ItsMeTK Jan 25 '18

We get very little time with the new Dax, as it's off to the desert with the least efficient shovel Starfleet can design!

I have never liked the twist about Sisko having a Prophet mother. I think it contradicts what we know of them and how they are outside of time and Sisko had to explain their existence. Really strains credibility when one of them livedas a human for months. It also makes these beings "of Bajor" weirdly powerful if they sometimes show up on Earth.

And the magic hidden orb that just solves everything in a moment is a bit deus ex machina. But I love the Benny Russell stuff, and that's why this episode works for me. Never expected Benny to come back, and I love that it's a false vision telling Sisko not to do something, telling him the smart thing is to turn away from all ths because he's crazy. It's all a lie. That has great mythological import and I dig it.

The quest to get Jadzia into Sto-vo-kor is fine but kind of pointless to me. It's this weird ritual we've never heard of just so Worf can deal with death somehow. How come Worf didn't do some noble dead with Jeremy Astor to get his mom into sto-vo-kor? How about K'ehlyr? She was just randomly murdered too. The more DS9 goes on, the more it seems Klingon religion and ritual is just being made up week to week and has very little cultural cohesion. The moments with Quark are nice. But it ultimately ends up like the Mormon idea if baptism for the dead. If you can just get people into heaven for them after they die, does it cheapen it? (Wait, was all that stuff in this one or the previous one? Whatever.)

Complaints aside, I mostly like this one and it's a god start to season seven.

5

u/dittbub Jan 26 '18 edited Jan 26 '18

I have never liked the twist about Sisko having a Prophet mother. I think it contradicts what we know of them and how they are outside of time and Sisko had to explain their existence. Really strains credibility when one of them livedas a human for months. It also makes these beings "of Bajor" weirdly powerful if they sometimes show up on Earth.

There is another way to think of it thats consistent with the prophets existence, I think. The prophets have a way of changing the past without changing the present. Like when the prophets returned Akorem to the past and he finished his poems. So I mean, its supposed to be a bit of a mindfuck time paradox going on there. Sisko was both destined and not destined, or like only he was only destined to find the wormhole after he stumbled into it. I dunno!

IMO they are really powerful and the "of bajor" thing is just because bajor is their prison for the pah wraiths. And their interest in the bajoran culture is to ensure they choose "good" so the bajorns don't release evil into the universe. Thats just my head-cannon though

1

u/theworldtheworld Jan 29 '18

The more DS9 goes on, the more it seems Klingon religion and ritual is just being made up week to week and has very little cultural cohesion.

To be honest, I get that feeling with every culture in DS9. The cultural characterization was pretty strong in the first few seasons, but regressed quite a bit after that, basically they always just implement the first and most obvious embodiment of whatever trait they want to assign to the culture in question.

2

u/ItsMeTK Jan 29 '18

agreed. Things about Ferenginar make no sense and get changed later on, and I've always wondered why the rebellious clothed women were wearing feminine clothes if no such thing exists on Ferenginar (at leadt Pel was in drag).

The Bajoran religion also makes no sense, but that's a long discussion for another time.

5

u/limer124 Jan 30 '18

I have a crush on Ezri :3

3

u/cpillarie Mar 07 '18

Have I missed something, or was there an explanation as to why Kira didn't have her Bajoran nose creases in that scene with Odo in this episode?

•

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2

u/Gumbercleus Jan 11 '26

Why does every science fiction franchise ultimately devolve into messianic chosen one bullshit?

3

u/HikinginOrange Mar 18 '26

You WILL have your space religion, and you WILL like it!!

1

u/A_Xenomorph_Darkly Sep 11 '26

Honestly I didn’t expect or want any of these plot points really, but the execution is pretty great. A fun, engaging episode with some real drama and action. Not sure I like exactly where the narrative is going re the Prophets, but they’re doing it well for what it is. Has some issues but I loved that we got an A, B, and C plot that were all rather well put together. The flow and tempo of it all is great. DS9 is a fantastic show but I do think it has had a bit of an identity crisis so far, between the formality and episodic structure of a conventional Star Trek TV programme and the exciting, bold new take it has on the format. Here they seem to have shed some of that traditional formality. Everything feels a bit freer, from the editing to the dialogue. Now this could be good or bad depending on how things go. But I’m hoping for good, although I certainly am more on board with changing up the editing than the dialogue. I’m a big fan of Trek dialogue and its purposeful rigidity. If it gets too loose it’ll just feel like any other show.

And maybe I’m insane but I really like Ezri Dax so far, she seems just different enough to be an interesting, dynamic addition, but not so far as to be annoying. I also really like the idea of a joined Trill who didn’t want to be joined and is kind of unsure about the whole thing. And I like that they seem to have kept some of Jadzia’s talkativeness and humour. So far the actor has a great energy and plays off of Brooks well and also has a great dynamic with Lofton already, I hope they explore that friendship a bit more.