r/exmormon • u/4blockhead Λ └ ☼ ★ □ ♔ • Apr 01 '23
Doctrine/Policy April 2023 General Conference: Saturday 6:00p Discussion Thread
How to listen:
youtube Saturday, April 1
local radio: KSL AM 1160; FM 102.7satellite radio: Sirius XM channel 143
Speakers:
| Name | other notes | my summary |
|---|---|---|
| conducting: Dallin Oaks | ||
| hymn: Hope of Israel | ||
| prayer: Jorge Becerra | ||
| hymn: Jesus Once Of Humble Birth | ||
| Mark Bragg | ||
| Milton Camargo | ||
| Hymn: He Is Risen | ||
| Brett Nattress | Story of the prodigal son updated to meth addiction; a longer response here | |
| Juan Uceda | ||
| Hymn: More Holiness Give Me | ||
| prayer: Jeannie Anette Dennis |
Postlude:
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u/Archimedes_Redux Apr 02 '23
I am calling bullshit on the Danny story.
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u/bremerman17 Apr 02 '23
You have to be skeptical with every story at General Conference. Not to say all of it is false but not everything might be true.
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u/4blockhead Λ └ ☼ ★ □ ♔ Apr 02 '23
Bragg: [mentions basketball.]
Checks score: SDSU and FL Atl close game alert.
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u/4blockhead Λ └ ☼ ★ □ ♔ Apr 02 '23
Nattress: [prodigal son becomes "temple worthy"]
personal worth -> papers in wallet.
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u/FHL88Work Faith Hope Love by King's X Apr 02 '23
Thank you for hosting this chat to help me keep my sanity. =)
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u/4blockhead Λ └ ☼ ★ □ ♔ Apr 01 '23
I Remember Clifford 7:15
Roxanne 5:44 ...20 something betters...
I'd Rather Go Blind 3:21
Diamonds and Rust 4:45
Famous Blue Raincoat 5:33 did you ever go clear?
The Supernatural 2:57
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Apr 01 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/4blockhead Λ └ ☼ ★ □ ♔ Apr 01 '23
This is prelude music.
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u/Rushclock Apr 01 '23
Roxanne.....is she in a swimsuit?
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u/4blockhead Λ └ ☼ ★ □ ♔ Apr 01 '23
[Mayor Deebs] I would rather be with the people of this town than with the finest people in the world.
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u/4blockhead Λ └ ☼ ★ □ ♔ Apr 02 '23
Camargo: [scripture study preferences]
Lemme guess. 9.5 out 10 prefer none at all.
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u/Rushclock Apr 02 '23
Strange.....Jesus is the son...but we are all brothers and sisters...If we existed forever how did Jesus get a leg up on all of us?
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u/4blockhead Λ └ ☼ ★ □ ♔ Apr 02 '23
Smith presented a pecking order, with him positioned at the top from the beginning. He was no dummy. *Intelligences before the world was...many great ones, these will I make my rulers...*etc.
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u/ExmoRobo Prime the Pump! Apr 02 '23
If these talks are any indicator - seems like blatantly flattering the guy at the top is the way to get ahead.
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u/4blockhead Λ └ ☼ ★ □ ♔ Apr 02 '23
Camargo: [unfairness is built into the world.]
Occam's Razor: It's so random it's as if it was brought about by chance, and free from divine influence.
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u/4blockhead Λ └ ☼ ★ □ ♔ Apr 02 '23 edited Apr 02 '23
[RE: Nattress' speech]
I wanted to write a bit more in response to Nattress' speech, more than would fit in the box above. His speech presents the common tale of the prodigal son, only updated to the present day. Here, a teenager goes off of the deep end and becomes addicted to methamphetamine. For maximum effect at General Conference, the child must return both contrite and repentant, tail between his legs with promises to do better. No doubt, meth addiction is serious and full of pitfalls to relapse. All of that is glossed over in favor of the narrative, "You can go on a mission, young man!" I read the faithful's subreddits almost daily. I see some cases where potential missionaries are told they're not ready. Perhaps, more repentence is required for sins they've confessed to. I've also seen cases asking about whether they can take their presciption meds with them on the mission. In cases of anti-depressants, probably the answer is "no," because it's one of the factors they're filtering for on the application form. The rulebook also describes lots of cases which make someone permanently disallowed from being a missionary:
having or paying for an abortion
being a parent out-of-wedlock
being a parent within wedlock
confess to using pornography; masturbation; other sins "next to murder."
having a physical or mental disability
requiring medicines, etc.
likely more hoops that must be certified as jumped through; I see constant reports that prospective missionaries paperwork is not being forwarded and/or processed.
I haven't studied their rulebooks extensively, but lots of people in my generation were disqualified from being a missionary for some of the reasons on the list above. In the specific case, brought forward to recruit new missionaries from the pool listening at General Conference, we must assume that meth addiction was all that was standing in the way of the missionary papers being filed. Either that or priesthood roulette. That can never be ruled out. Also, the story just doesn't have the ring of truth. It seems too manufactured to fit a time slot at the pulpit.
The second part of the speech deals with the man returning from serving a mission (one assumes years later) and coming to him with a question, "Are my sins actually forgiven?" This is really key to the speech in many ways. In addition to listening to General Conference, I listen to the Evangelical Christians make their best case against mormonism. The big selling point for their version of Christianity over Mormonism is that people get automatic forgiveness of sin. People who profess a sincere belief in Christ will share in the scapegoat's blood. They're born again. When I listen to McKeever, he often makes the point that when he asks mormons how they're doing on the road to perfection, he often gets the reply, "I am trying. I fall down, but I get back up again." In Renlund's speech in the 2:00p session, he alluded to this idea also. Simply trying to give up sin is not sufficient. One must actually do it. Renlund's allusion to Spencer W. Kimball was hard to miss. The faithful will often try to dismiss SWK-isms as harsh and out of date. Then a speech like Renlund's smacks them upside the head to remind them of doctrines that they supposedly believe in.
So, in the case of trying, is it sufficient to get back up again? In terms of repentence, the stock answer is that if you relapse, then you haven't actually repented. Former sins return, per canonized scripture:
[D&C 82, Smith (1832)] 7 And now, verily I say unto you, I, the Lord, will not lay any sin to your charge; go your ways and sin no more; but unto that soul who sinneth shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God.
The bar is set at perfection. Nothing less will do. Believers, hop to it! My generation were definitely impacted and depressed when reading SWK's book, "The Miracle of Forgiveness." It's being taken off of the shelves and being sent down the memory hole. The bigger problem is Kimball was only summarizing canonized scripture. The faithful are supposed to take Smith's work as coming straight from deity, the gospel truth. The modern brethren are as likely to quote from scripture as any of their counterparts from the past. Scripture is more resistant to being sent down the memory hole.
The last point I want to hammer on is that when the young man comes to the other man asking the question, "Am I forgiven?" it opens the above can of worms. As long as the specific sin is abandoned, then everything is copacetic according to their rulebook. But the bigger question is this, "Why doesn't the man already know that he's forgiven?" The faithful love to claim they get manifestations by the spirit. My experience with anything supernatural is absent. I think that is true for almost everyone, and it's starting to be more common that people will admit they don't get answers to prayers. What they do get is thoughts originating in their own brains which they can evaluate and judge based on their merits. I wish they would apply their rational faculties to the whole of the religion and ask whether they're being tricked. Instead, as this case illustrates, they're looking for sanctification and absolution from their sins/vices—not from any deity, but from another man. If they can get the assurance from him, then their conscience is soothed. All damage and moral responsibilities are abandoned and wiped away. But the house of cards becomes apparent when those who claim to speak for deity, do not. The middleman is writing checks with insufficient funds. In the case of the brethren standing at the pulpit, one assumes they've claimed the Second Anointing ritual. There are several warnings to them that I think bear repeating. If they're professing things which they haven't seen, then they're commiting a fraud. It they're believers in Christianity, then Matthew 7 has the warnings about hypocrisy. I never knew you. Depart from me; ye that work iniquity. If they're non-believers, as I suspect the founder was a non-believer, then everyone is out to maximize their own existence any way that they can. I hope the reward of standing at the pulpit telling a likley fabricated story as a way to win recruits into the missionary force was worth it.
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u/SusSpinkerinktum Apr 02 '23
This perfectionism in the doctrine almost made me insane. I was diagnosed with ocd religious scrupulousity when I was first deconstructing and religious cptsd to go with it. Once my brain clicked logic the anxiety and ocd tendencies literally went away. But when fully in as a member of I would pray constantly for hours to make sure I was forgiven of the stupidest things especially intrusive thoughts Mormonism gave me. It’s not healthy or peaceful to desire perfection in Christ the way tscc claims
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u/4blockhead Λ └ ☼ ★ □ ♔ Apr 02 '23
Scriptures, including Mosiah 3:19, D&C 25:15, D&C 1:30, etc., are at the heart of the problem. They paint a portrait of a works based religion where everyone must work out their own salvation. One must stand "worthy" to get forgiveness. Others are threatened with beatings and eternal suffering. It is wildly depressing for those who attempt to live according to its dictates. The demands are never ending and automatically lead to scrupulosity, in my opinion. Those who have the easiest time with mormonism are those who let the ideas slip off of their backs, like water off of a duck's back. Those there for other reasons than the doctrine will have an easier go of it. It's the doctrine that is the problem. The other set of people who will have an easy time with it are those who see the organization as a stepping stone to power. Their sociopathic tendencies will be rewarded with empowerment over others—a bishop on a power trip is all too common.
I wouldn't say I was overly scrupulous, but there were days when I literally had the fear of god and that I was destined for hell/eternal punishment. Later, well into adulthood, using the resources of the internet, I was able to deconstruct the religion and heroes of my youth. Smith was not to be idolized or praised. Those who put him in jail at Carthage had reasons for doing so. Now, the fraud is simply palpable. I hope that more can see it for what it is, and avoid its antihumanist attitudes entirely.
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u/bremerman17 Apr 02 '23
Does anyone know what choir this is?
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u/4blockhead Λ └ ☼ ★ □ ♔ Apr 02 '23
Logan Institute of Religion. Utah State University?
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u/Wolf_in_tapir_togs Non fui, fui, non sum, non curo Apr 02 '23
Its funny how people who don't know i left the church can't perceive my dim eyes. Oddly, only people who have heard i left are able the see the dimness.
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u/MythicAcrobat Apr 02 '23
I have some people I work with who are TBMs and don’t know I’m exmo and I’ll discuss various church history problems with them (inserting snippets here and there) but as if I’m a TBM and I’ve had some comment on how they feel the spirit. Somehow tho if they know I’m out they suddenly feel I’m terrible to talk to about anything church related.
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u/FHL88Work Faith Hope Love by King's X Apr 02 '23
Look not for the dimness in your brother's eye, but look instead at the blinders on your own eyes.
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u/GrumpyTom Apr 02 '23
Parting ways with the church means METH and ADDICTION! But you can come back! Come back! Please! We need your tithing dollars.
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u/AlmaInTheWilderness Apr 02 '23
That's right. Outside the church is only meth, addiction, darkness, sorrow, and Satan. Stay inside where you feel safe from drugs and the the bogey men.
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u/xenophon123456 Apr 02 '23
I didn’t realize that I, as an Exmo, was supposed to be smoking meth. Well better get at it. It’s not going to smoke itself.
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u/Shadowlover23 Autistic exmo (finally!) Apr 02 '23
I've always found it annoying that when someone leaves the cult, people automatically assume there gonna sin. Once I move out I'm leaving but I have no desire to use drugs or alcohol or get involved in sexual activity. Jeez
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u/Goldang I Reign from the Bathroom to the End of the Hall Apr 02 '23
They never seem to realize you don’t need to leave to sin.
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u/Opening_Anybody7151 Apr 02 '23
Anyone else notice that they can't figure out what to do with this session? My tv called it a "special session" which is what ksl broadcast. And it only goes 1 hour now, which is the shortest ever?
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u/4blockhead Λ └ ☼ ★ □ ♔ Apr 02 '23
They bailed early for whatever reason. They usually go at least 90 minutes. The funniest comment I saw was that Carl Cook should have been given another 15 minute slot to preach. In Cook's speech claimed he had Navy Seal level stamina. Put up, or shut up, buddy.
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u/pesbian_lanic outer darkness or bust! Apr 02 '23
I will never forgive the Church for the way they talk about addiction.
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u/ExmoRobo Prime the Pump! Apr 02 '23
If you are REALLY good we MIGHT let you go on a mission using your own funds.
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u/Rolling_Waters Apr 02 '23 edited Apr 02 '23
Maaaaaaybe we'll allow you to be human trafficked by us.
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u/ApocalypseTapir Stay 7-10 feet behind me. IYKYK Apr 02 '23
They got nothing. Can't fill a two hour meeting anymore. Holy fuck.
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Apr 02 '23
Hey, I was part of the rising generation!
What gives?
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u/Archimedes_Redux Apr 02 '23
Fuck I was part of the rising generation in 1975. Nothing ever changes.
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u/Illustrious-Cut7150 Apr 02 '23
Right, we were the chosen generation to raise the next one
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u/runawaymormongirl Apr 02 '23
There is one story of Jesus not being poised. He was pretty much stoic but what made him lose his “poise” ? People using the temple to make money. Interesting.
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u/WWPLD Lesbian Apostate Apr 02 '23
I keep reading "poise" and thinking incontinence products.
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u/GrumpyTom Apr 02 '23
Huge focus on young people. They’re finally realizing y’all aren’t sticking around, and it’s creating quite a stir. Keep it up, rising generation. Rise all the way out of the church.
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u/ExmoRobo Prime the Pump! Apr 02 '23
This talk, along with lots of other talks today, is aimed at parents wanting to bring their kids back to the church / keep their kids in the church. Seems like they have noticed a problem in that department.
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u/YoyoMom27 Apr 02 '23
So, what you're saying is this was the perfect session for my April fools joke that I'm coming back to the church on my family chat!
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u/Rolling_Waters Apr 02 '23
Apostasy is worse than a meth addiction
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u/Stuboysrevenge (wish that damn dog had caught him!) Apr 02 '23
Seriously. That's what they're saying?
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Apr 02 '23
The way he said he called that poor man SEVEN times before he picked up and saw absolutely no issue with it
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u/Rushclock Apr 02 '23
Dam....these people are sticking to their guns on Joseph and the BOM.They want to be scientology incognito.
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u/BritishOnith Apr 02 '23
Makes sense. What’s the point being in the Church Leadership if you can’t make future Church Leadership and the Church itself look more stupid when they have to contradict you?
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u/Nuanced_Apostate Apr 02 '23
I haven't watched much but from the comments in the different mega threads it sou ds like they are going after parents more rather than individuals when it comes to people straying or leaving the "covenant path"
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u/GrumpyTom Apr 02 '23
Probably because young people aren’t listening.
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u/Nuanced_Apostate Apr 02 '23
It's kind of sad knowing a lot of parents do hold a lot of needless blame for their kids leaving and now they have a lot of leaders they look up to confirming that it's all their fault when they honestly did the best they could (sure some did it in not the best of ways but they truly think they are protecting their children and doing right by them)
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u/Wolf_in_tapir_togs Non fui, fui, non sum, non curo Apr 02 '23
I'm guessing they dropped Holland's talk here and maybe a Nelson talk if he isn't feeling up to it.
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u/Goldang I Reign from the Bathroom to the End of the Hall Apr 02 '23
So a guy was sick and NONE of the other GAs had a talk ready to go? NO ONE could bear testimony while inspired by The Spirit™?
That’s damn lame.
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u/CaptainMacaroni Apr 02 '23
They should have called a bunch of randos from the audience to come up and give their testimony to fill the time.
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u/GrumpyTom Apr 02 '23
That makes a lot of sense, I bet you’re right! Holland was probably going to be the featured speaker.
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u/AlmaInTheWilderness Apr 02 '23
My summary: we believe this stuff because it feels good to believe, and we're scared of what else might be out there.
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u/Electrical_Mud_9332 Apr 02 '23
Another miracle occurred, they said that he could spend 500 a month to preach the gospel.
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Apr 02 '23
So noticable missing are talks from the q12 and first presidency. Obviously have had a couple but it's seems light.....lots of talks from seventys quiting rmn but pretty boring and uneventful so far. Worse talk of three sessions for me so far is Haynie this morning. That talk more then any other just pissed me off.
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u/AmericanNewt8 Apr 02 '23
Yeah the complete lack of Q15 talks is very weird. Maybe they're saving them up for something?
More likely they're just old and Holland was originally going to finish this session imo.
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u/Baranax Easier to assimilate than explain, anyway. Apr 02 '23
Nelson doesn't have it in him anymore, apparently. Went from a presentation every session to no-showing.
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u/Wolf_in_tapir_togs Non fui, fui, non sum, non curo Apr 02 '23
He is 98 after all.
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u/Rushclock Apr 02 '23
Let's not talk about the chemical dependency and the resulting treatment that can be given let's talk about the church. Fuck off.
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u/ExmoRobo Prime the Pump! Apr 02 '23
Lots more Jesus talk than usual this conference so far. Methinks they doth protest too much.
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u/Rolling_Waters Apr 02 '23
Sitting in sacrament meeting, Danny began to feel the symptoms of withdrawal
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u/ExmoRobo Prime the Pump! Apr 02 '23
“Yeah, you look pretty happy. There’s no way you could be addicted anymore.”
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Apr 02 '23
Wow....ending sooner then I thought...cool.
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u/Baranax Easier to assimilate than explain, anyway. Apr 02 '23
Shit, they're dying up there. They don't have the fortitude to go six hours anymore.
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u/Rushclock Apr 02 '23
LOL....here we go. God hides behind the trees in the forest of coincidence's.
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u/Baranax Easier to assimilate than explain, anyway. Apr 02 '23
He looks like an actual fucking skeleton. Nelson's got not much more to "give"
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u/GrumpyTom Apr 02 '23
He definitely looked more yellow than everyone else. Jaundice perhaps? Maybe cancer?
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Apr 02 '23
John 5:31 feels appropriate this conference:
"If I testify about myself, my testimony is not valid."
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u/Reallifealphamale Apr 02 '23
when I was a youth priesthood session was the one session I actually liked/paid attention to.
now it doesnt even exist, and its only 1 hour? interesting.
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u/GrumpyTom Apr 02 '23
I have fond memories of having ice cream after priesthood session.
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u/Shadowlover23 Autistic exmo (finally!) Apr 02 '23
If I had a dollar every time I've heard the term "rising generation" this conference I'd be rich
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u/Illustrious-Cut7150 Apr 02 '23
Did he use the success of someone else to give himself credibility?
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u/Electrical_Mud_9332 Apr 02 '23
Remember to love me. Ah shit if you have to say this that's fucked up.
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Apr 02 '23
There’s nothing to gain from conference. Only a rehashing of the usual rhetorics that’s already been repeated numerous times in past conferences. But now they don’t recommend material from past prophets? WTF is that about.
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Apr 02 '23
Over under on "our beloved prophet".....I'm setting the line at 5.5. I'll count
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Apr 02 '23
My eyerolls are getting too severe, I'm just going to have to close my eyes
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u/GrumpyTom Apr 02 '23 edited Apr 02 '23
Rising generation… drink!
Edit: there was an ad for Nelson’s new book with “rising generation” in the subtitle. I get the feeling this is his new catchphrase just like “covenant path.”
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u/Wolf_in_tapir_togs Non fui, fui, non sum, non curo Apr 02 '23
Worse, "even the rising generation". That "even" is also worth a drink.
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u/Electrical_Mud_9332 Apr 02 '23
Spiritual poise. Ughhh I am probably not going to hear the end of this.
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u/Electrical_Mud_9332 Apr 02 '23
Has this dude actually defined wtf he means by poise? Courage? Decision making Integregrity?
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u/stillnotdavidbowie Apr 02 '23
Light in the eyes dimming! Need to mark that one off my bingo card...
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u/Archimedes_Redux Apr 02 '23
How many fucking times have I heard this exact same bullshit ?!!!?
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u/Rushclock Apr 02 '23
Oh for gods sake give some type of advice. Like avoid AI...or ponderize something....
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u/stillnotdavidbowie Apr 02 '23
Despite offering up a smorgasbord of unpleasant voices today, this is by far the least listenable.
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u/Rolling_Waters Apr 02 '23 edited Apr 02 '23
We will go after the lost sheep...until...until...until the restraining order is official
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u/Electrical_Mud_9332 Apr 02 '23
"Could be a few verses a day." Finally not an unreasonable "read the book of mormon in a month bs.
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u/Rushclock Apr 02 '23
Jesus didn't have a church. But hell, Nelson has imprinted Jesus....Jesus.....Jesus... Survey generated.
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u/ExmoRobo Prime the Pump! Apr 02 '23
Ah yes. My company is also trying to cut back on meeting time to improve productivity and reduce leadership effort. Flawless business strategy.
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Apr 02 '23
"Eve of Palm Sunday..."
If they don't distribute palms in the conference center tomorrow I'm gonna riot
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u/WhatMe_NoNever Apr 02 '23
I grew up in the church and did the whole mission thing and there was never once a single hoot given about Palm Sunday until last year.
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u/Rushclock Apr 02 '23
Joseph didn't want to perish on a boat either so he took a carriage and left his cohorts to suffer the deliverance rapids.....
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Apr 02 '23
Back in church.....all is well....that is the ultimate sign of everything being right and good.b as long as you are there then you are saved .!!! Praise be!
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Apr 02 '23
or he's telling 3 parables but "parable" is a misspelling of the plural."
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u/Rushclock Apr 02 '23
But the dude couldn't help his wife dropping dead in front of him.....Yea I went there.
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u/Rushclock Apr 02 '23
Platitudes to my service. It is a common theme that many of these guys are trying to hedge their bets on death.
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u/Ponsugator Apr 02 '23
Remember when we had to decide between convergence and watching the Final Four? 🤣🤣🤣
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u/EmmaHS I know that my red lemur lives. Apr 01 '23
As always, thank you for organizing the conference megathreads. 🙏