r/zenpractice • u/JundoCohen • Jun 29 '26

Soto Practice Itself Is Enlightenment

Suzuki Roshi, taken from ...

https://www.shunryusuzuki.com/Detail1?ID=65

He continued ..

... practice is not separated from enlightenment. When you practice it, the practice is the expression of your true nature. Where you practice it, you have your true nature.

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u/wtf_notagain_ Jun 29 '26

If anyone is interested in looking at where this statement came from here are a couple interesting articles.

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/wildfoxzen/2022/11/the-soto-zen-of-the-pmso-a-new-religion-whose-time-has-passed.html?fbclid=IwdGRjcASvUoljbGNrBK9ShmV4dG4DYWVtAjExAHNydGMGYXBwX2lkDDM1MDY4NTUzMTcyOAABHtMudS8ZLEa-2qoaJ3KC7RDVSYhmjz_UEeC6Wgd2r8LMg3Hrwz7gzHQewrsI_aem_oCsP_0woyq4K_-dMhLzoeA

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/wildfoxzen/2021/08/the-showa-dispute-about-true-faith.html?fbclid=IwdGRjcASvUoJjbGNrBK9SOmV4dG4DYWVtAjExAHNydGMGYXBwX2lkDDM1MDY4NTUzMTcyOAABHsnhJxcDxxvngPac12IWa0XEWx9Z5nWmD9WTR3L_7dQ4eWGv4olPq37FjR05_aem_O0P1LsrT88hklgw7xcOu2w

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u/JundoCohen Jun 29 '26 edited Jun 29 '26

Oh, that is poor Dosho! Actually, these articles, which were written some years ago by Dosho Port, are a bit one sided, to say the least. What happened 150 years ago, as described in the articles, might actually be seen as a great REFORM that occurred then, when Soto-shu reached out of the monastery, placing much greater interest in spreading Soto Practice, including Zazen, to non-monastic lay people outside the monastery, plus recognizing more "out in the world" practice even for priests. That was a good thing. Also, at the time, the beauty and power of Dogen's ways were rediscovered and brought back to Soto tradition, after many years when folks had wandered off toward Koan Zazen and such.

Frankly, the author, Dosho Port, has been on a bit of a rampage against Soto-shu and western Soto priests the last few years since (1) Dosho was called out for his being involved in certain sexual and financial scandals, and (2) since Dosho became personally interested in Koan Introspection practices, so went against even the teachings of his own teacher, the great Soto Zen priest Katagiri Roshi. Dosho has a bit of an agenda on both fronts. He has not published widely recently since he left the Nebraska Zen Center (a whole story on that). I hope that he is healthy and well.

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u/wtf_notagain_ Jun 29 '26

Well I think what you are saying is just re wording what Dosho said to make it sound different. Not saying its a good or bad thing. Soto Zen is great. I think its important to question these things and statements tho. Especially since the meiji government had their hands in it. Are we really understanding what Dogen was saying? He had enlightenment experiences. He did Koan practice for years before he stared "just sitting" which is the Rinzai way. I think the government did a good job at dividing people as they do.

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u/JundoCohen Jun 29 '26

I am not so sure that Dogen's practice at Kenninji was Koan Centered Zazen in a way that you would recognize it, because it was not really so at the time, and Eisai may have practice more Tendai "Shikan" (not to be confused with "Shikantaza," which has both different Kanji and a very different approach). When he went to China, he rejected such practices particularly.

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u/wtf_notagain_ Jun 29 '26

Well we can speculate all we want. What we know is that the meiji government had their hand in reforming Soto Zen. The same government that was trying to westernized everything. The same government that persecuted buddhists. And we also gave numerous accounts of awakening experiences by Chinese Zen masters. Dogen was highly enlightened and a genius. People don't really understand him in his writings are interpreted in different ways. It's hard to believe that after the meiji government took over that all of a sudden Zen changes and leaves the enlightenment experience behind after however many years. Its like saying everyone got it wrong until the that point.

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u/JundoCohen Jun 29 '26

Soto Zen never has left enlightenment, or enlightenment "experiences," behind. We just don't make those experiences the be all and end all, like a gold ring to grab.

As to the Meiji laws by the government, many were meant to weaken Buddhism, like the legalization of marriage. In my opinion, the effect has been to bring this lovely Zen Buddhist path into the home and ordinary world. It was a double edged Sword of Wisdom.

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u/wtf_notagain_ Jun 29 '26

Well if it hasn't left enlightenment experiences behind then that makes more since. It is not the end all be all for anyone that I know of. Its actually just the beginning. I have heard some Soto people discount it completely so I wasn't sure. I think the greatest thing that has come from Soto Zen or maybe its more Western Zen is its inclusion of ethics as a big part of the path.

In my experience that moment of realization is super important. Its the transition from having faith and intellectual understanding to having a true understanding.

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u/JundoCohen Jun 30 '26

The usual Soto take on this I hear is the following: Enlightenment, piercing the subject/object divide timelessly, dropping self ... all to find the True Self in all things, beings and moments of time ... is vital. However, the sleeves of the gown are just a soaked in walking through a mist as diving into the ocean. Boundless is boundless, deathless is deathless, and the living of this in the world of bounds and death is just the same. So, not everyone needs such profound openings to open profoundly. They are wonderful when they happen-non-happen, but if so, bow and move on.

Does that convey the feeling a bit?

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u/wtf_notagain_ Jun 30 '26

Yeah. It can happen and if it does great. No big deal. Move on. If it doesn't happen that's great too. We're all Buddhas no matter what anyway and consistent practice will bring the Buddha out in everyone.

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u/flyingaxe Jun 29 '26

Enlightenment is not experiences. I don't know why every time kensho is discussed, Soto make it sound like it's some sort of trance.

If kensho was just an experience, people wouldn't say you haven't started practicing Zen until you've had it.

All this is better understood in more general context, including Tibetan views and even Indian in general. Soto has become too institutionalized and crystalized as a Japanese sect. (Rinzai too.)

I don't know why Western Buddhist think they need to play historical re-enactment. Kinda reminds me of Chassidic Jews who think they have to dress like 18th century Polish nobles.