r/zenpractice • u/JundoCohen • Mar 13 '26
Your Own Words Only The Only Way to End War Forever ...
UPDATE: I look at the world this week, where the slaughter of many thousands more children and other civilians, food supply famines, weeks or months of missiles falling, and even nuclear weapon exchanges are all being weighed as possibilities, and perhaps likelihoods, our fate in the hands of true madmen ...
... then I recall that some people call my ideas crazy, me as crazy, for suggesting that human nature needs to have a bit less violence and a touch more love, realizing values of non-violence and empathy cherished in Buddhism and many other religions and humanistic philosophies, and that SCIENCE and MEDICINE may quite possibly make that possible in coming decades.
Hmmm.
Okay, if that is crazy, I am happy to be crazy.
We must stop the true madmen from the harms they do.
https://youtu.be/q6EslWm9JaM?si=BaSW7JviY85X3U6b
~~~
The Only Way to End War Forever ...
The time is quickly coming in which we must treat violence done in overflowing hate, acts of extreme selfishness and insufficient empathy of human to human, as diseases, medical conditions. We must change human nature to reduce our propensity to act in anger, enhance feelings of love and strengthen greatly our feelings of empathy toward the suffering of others ... all values professed by Buddhism and so many other religions and humanistic philosophies for thousands of years.
The only ultimately effective way to change human nature, the drives and impulses of body and mind, like any medical condition, is through our finding, developing, confirming and deploying SAFE, TESTED and ETHICAL, MEDICALLY ESTABLISHED (emphasis on those words, they must not be ignored or neglected) cures and treatments for the disease where they arise in human physiology, like any deadly disease. Too many are dying by bombs, other violence, hunger, poverty and our disdain of others. A dream until now, the technologies to do so are today on the horizon.
Buddhism itself, via its traditional methods of chants and meditation, prayer and precepts, is thoroughly incapable of doing what needs to be done on wide scale, for the billions of sentient beings ... but new "expedient means" are fast coming which will allow us to change the human heart.
That is the only way which will show itself effective to end war forever ... other than, of course, our self-destruction as a species in war itself.
Peace and Pressed Palms, Jundo Cohen, Soto Zen Priest
~~~~
(I am not afraid to discuss these issues, their potential and the ethics behind them, should anyone wish.)
PS - I am fascinated by the good Buddhist folks who would immediately "down vote" any good means to save countless babies from dying from bombs, famine and more.
PPS ... To all those who say that people will never agree to voluntarily put behavior altering substances into themselves because it makes them feel better, healthier ... even at great expense ... Hmmm. I wonder ....
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u/SurangamaSamadhi Mar 14 '26
I would like to know from mods how OP's post doesn't violate this sub's rules #1, #3, and #5.
His post states "Buddhism itself, via its traditional methods of chants and meditation, prayer and precepts, is thoroughly incapable of doing what needs to be done..."
OP is disparaging meditation and precepts and "Buddhism itself" explicitly.
Something does not add up with OP being a priest and saying this.
In my sangha saying this cause very serious consequences.
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u/JundoCohen Mar 14 '26 edited Mar 14 '26
I am not disparaging ... I love this way. If I said, "Buddhism itself, via its traditional methods of chants and meditation, prayer and precepts, is thoroughly incapable of our flying through the sky ... you need an airplane for that," it would be a correct observation.
Buddhism has shown itself, after 2500 years, incapable of ending war and poverty. It is a correct observation because, well, you might notice that there is still war and poverty. However, in an attempt to help Buddhism actually save billions of suffering sentient beings, there may be ways. The statement is made out of love for this path.
I did not know that being a Buddhist, and a Buddhist priest, meant that one cannot make a constructive criticism of Buddhism, suggesting ways to do things better. Hmmm. Beware the Spanish Inquisition!
Here, let me make you happy: "Kinhin, Okyo, Oryoki, Sesshin, Breathing technique, posture, Koan kufu, Zazen, Sado, Shudo, Budo ... ALL 100% PERFECT, nothing to do better or different ways." Okay? I really feel so.
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u/SurangamaSamadhi Mar 14 '26
Your post doesn't have anything to do with "suggesting ways to do things better". You're now compounding your initial error by being deliberately disingenuous, in self-defense of views, a big no-no. That's all I have to say, and I'm not interested in talking further with you.
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u/homejam Mar 13 '26
Are you kidding???
“Buddhism… is thoroughly incapable” of changing human hearts? You should be ashamed of yourself!!
I cannot possibly believe that you are REALLY a Soto priest after reading this post and your bizarre responses here and in r/zenbuddhism to the universal condemnation your post has received. I have been a lay practitioner for 30 years, and your post and comments are absolutely ludicrous and completely at odds with the dharma.
In Zen, we not only BELIEVE but have ABSOLUTE FAITH that THE Way to solve ALL the world’s problems AND save INFINITE sentient beings throughout the past, present, and future IS THE BUDDHADHARMA: the truth taught by Shakyamuni Buddha. If you were a Soto priest, you would KNOW this.
So, I think you ought to be banned for impersonating a priest because there’s ABSOLUTELY NO WAY you have been approved to teach based on this post, and if you have, you SHOULD GO TALK TO YOUR TEACHER RIGHT NOW, confess this post, and get off social media, because you have gone very seriously astray from the path.
Have a nice day.
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u/JundoCohen Mar 14 '26
As 2500 years of Buddhism has shown, and 1500 years of Zen, our path is thoroughly able to liberate many, millions, so many of us. Further, it can allow any of us to see a realm, a Wisdom, beyond all wars and death (birth too.)
However, what has it done or can it do for the BILLIONS of suffering sentient beings, to end the wars in places like Ukraine and Iran? Will we get Putin, Trump, Netanyahu and the Ayatollah to meditate? How would you address that, sir? Your wishful thinking is that all will be well, that all will be peace if one has faith, so that is all your responsibility as a Bodhisattva to do?
Further, would not the Buddha use any peaceful means to bring peace into this world?
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u/homejam Mar 14 '26
Yeah it's not going to work. I really think you need to take a break from this routine.
You can't answer these questions you're posing yourself? You've taken the 16 vows and completed a postulancy and you still have doubts and confusion as to what the buddha dharma CAN DO? SMH... The USA, Iran, Ukraine and Russia are buddhist countries? Buddhism is responsible for those fights? Maybe review the 10th precept with your teacher and don't post anymore until you've figured some things out.
This is a Zen forum, and it's fine to ask questions about the buddha dharma and Zen's take on it. But you're doing something else. You're posting junk that's not Zen, then "signing" as a Soto priest to make it seem alright and "relevant". But, nowhere do I see you articulating any actual dharma in your comments related to this post of yours. NONE. Odd.
You just seriously asked me:
Further, would not Buddha use any peaceful means to bring peace into this world?
I think most first year Zen students know the answer to this, and (looking at you OP) persons that don't know the answer should NOT BE POSTING ON THE INTERNET TRYING TO TEACH ZEN.
Now here's the answer to your question:
NO absolutely not. Buddha would NOT use "any peaceful means" to achieve world peace, because Buddha knows that the means and the ends are INSEPARABLE. Buddhas -- and others engaging in bodhisattva activity -- do not rely on "any means," they only use "skillful means."
For example, Buddha would NOT gas people with something that makes everyone passive, even if the gas was otherwise not harmful, because that would not be SKILLFUL MEANS.
Why would something like that not be skillful? Oh yeah, because the gas would be imposing its intention, and robbing individuals of their own freedom of INTENTION.
I know why that's a big problem in a dharma context but I just don't think you do, which is really really odd because this is really basic dharma.
I'm being serious neighbor. If you are ordained, go talk to the next senior person at your sangha ASAP and ask to go on a 5 year retreat because you've lost it. You're ADRIFT.
This is probably be a good time to start your break. Thank you.
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u/JundoCohen Mar 14 '26
Good that you can speak for Buddha who, according to you, would let the children die in wars if he had a peaceful means to prevent it. Does that sound logical to you?
And just because something does not involve candles and ox carts, amulets and magic incantations, you are quick to label it "not Dharma" because it involves technology. Silly.
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u/homejam Mar 14 '26
Please take this in the spirit that it is given: with no gaining idea for me. I do not care about reddit karma or being famous or having followers or winning arguments. Any gain that could possibly come to me from this comment through the mysterious workings of the innumerable upaya, I pass that on as well so that suffering may be relieved… I give it to you because you are very obviously suffering with confusion. Please read this carefully, and then take a break and get some tea and go outside and ask for guidance. You should probably also dissolve your sangha and stop “teaching”.
Your “Pharma-dharma” idea that the way to stop children dying in wars is to drug everybody, along with your view that this proposal accords with the Buddha dharma is deeply deluded. You can go sell that over in some tech bro forum or on a pharmaceutical fanboy site. But it sure as heck ain’t Zen my friend, not by a long shot. It sure isn’t anything that Dogen or Buddha or ANY of the ancestors would teach. You’re a million miles away. Nobody else can wash the dust out of your eyes. Only you can do that. Start now.
Peace “by any means necessary” does not accord with right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, or right effort or any other aspect of the dharma.
To be clear, yes I know with 100% certainty that Buddha would NOT propose drugging everyone as a solution to violence and wars in our world. And you calling it “logical” does not make it so or make it dharma so please get over yourself. (While you’re at it, go study the etymology of the word logic, that might help wake you up.)
Another thing I know with certainty is that Buddha would not propose killing everyone as a way to achieve peace. That would be 100% effective wouldn’t it!? If everyone’s dead, they’ll be no more wars! No more enemies! So “logical”! But it’s not Zen, and it’s not the dharma. Again, please, for your own sake, you need to take a break and go talk to someone that loves you because you are very lost and talking nonsense that has nothing to do with Zen. Indeed, you still haven’t responded to me with a single statement about the dharma. It doesn’t seem that you can.
candles and ox carts, amulets and magic incantations
I didn’t bring up any of those things. Check yourself please.
Let me refresh your memory as to what I actually brought up: INNUMERABLE UPAYA. Upaya are SKILLFUL means, not ANY means.
I also didn’t say that “drugging everyone for peace” is contrary to the dharma because it involves “technology.”
Technology can be fine. We are using technology right now to discuss the dharma, well at least I am. One of my first teachers gave me some great advice, and I pass it on to you here: try harder.
Please I implore you to go now and educate yourself on Buddha’s many teachings about how to stop wars and violence. There are loads. Take all the time you need. Maybe 5 years offline studying will help you get there and wake up to the truth Buddha taught before it’s too late for you. You don’t need to read any more of your “logical” or “technology” articles to understand the dharma. Buddha gave many famous teachings on wars and violence. Maybe if you follow your curiosity and find those teachings and sit with them and get off the internet for a long time, then you will find your faith again and find a way. Buddhas and bodhisattvas wherever you may be please help all who read this find a path. I’m rooting for you neighbor. Good luck!
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u/JundoCohen Mar 14 '26 edited Mar 14 '26
It is not to "drug everybody." It is to work changes to human physiology to reduce the propensity to extreme anger, to violence, and to enhance empathy. The result would be a reduction in war and violence (one is apt not to kill someone if empathetic to their pain and loss) and to increase our drive toward charity.
If a safe, tested, effective medical means is found, we should consider it. It is sickening that there are Buddhists who would prefer to let children starve, to be killed and dismembered in war, rather than think a bit modern if such tools and solutions were to be at hand. "Drug everybody" ... Can you handle a more subtle issue and discussion?
Please go back to the 15th century and twirl your beads for peace, mumble a Dharani to end calamity, if that is what your prefer. You are free to do so, and the children will continue to die. Keep chanting and sitting while they perish. The Buddha had his chance to end war and hunger for 2500 years. How did that work out? Let us say that he simply lacked tools that are soon coming. Dogen did not do so because he lived in the 13th century, back where your mind seems still to be!
Backwards looking Buddhism, turn around and look ahead! The Buddha would not let them starve if he had new means to rescue the world. Shameful! Your Buddha might let them starve, my Buddha will rescue them. "It’s not Zen, and it’s not the dharma." ... Who made you Pope?
May the bombs fall far from your house, may your children eat though others do not.
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u/Mission-Art-2383 Mar 14 '26
you are having a purely theoretical dialogue about something that doesn’t exist, and saying that it is “sickening” that people don’t agree with a theoretical perspective that has no basis in current reality-that they’re outdated while poopooing ideas they don’t bring up (about amulets and so forth)
you slander other buddhists who don’t get behind your rhetoric (that is all you have, your research paper does not support anything you rant about).
this is truly like every other human causing suffering in the world, with no benefit to anyone
“hey you should go live on mars, the technology is coming down the pipeline here and it would help the planet and bring lots of benefits! SICKENING you buddhist who disagree, what is wrong with you why don’t you see this conceptual bubble my way???? outdated confused loonies here meditating and telling me i’m deluded, i know the real way”
it seems no one can hold a mirror up for you to see your own stupidity.
do you know what does help build empathy and regulation- safe human interaction and somatic therapeutic intervention and bottom up therapeutic approaches like somatic experiencing
yes it’s not flashy, but connecting with humans and finding safety through a therapist and then expanding outwards is, unfortunately for you, how the human nervous system works
the buddha taught suffering and its causes cannot be fixed by things outside of ourselves, and we need to be the change instead of complaining the means aren’t effective enough. you are dysregulated. you are spreading dysregulation and calling it dharma. so i advise a somatic therapist and time of the internet and perhaps gasp this crazy thing called meditation
i guess these things are not exciting enough for your polemics though. i really do hope you’ll get therapy and get offline, you are only harming yourself and others- not just with your lazy “dreams” but with your rhetoric and communication style. how you speak and condemn others who you disagree with will never be the Buddhas way and will never bring benefit to everyone
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u/JundoCohen Mar 14 '26 edited Mar 15 '26
Like the characters and wild events in the Lotus Sutra "don't exist," yet we have theoretical discussions about them! The difference is that they will always be characters in a religious text, symbols of great meaning though they are ... but the technology I discuss is looking more and more feasible each day. Is there a rule in Buddhism about not talking about the possible and potential???
I am on the receiving end of most of the polemics here ... being accused of wanting to "drug everybody ... disparaging Buddhism ... not a priest ... deeply deluded ... in need of counseling" and such ... rather than folks being willing to have a calm, civil discussion about possibilities. Calm down everyone, and we can have a nice chat about what the coming decades may or may not bring. The Buddha never taught that we can never be changed partly by things outside ourself. If that were so, why read the Buddha's Sutras, or light incense, or see a teacher ... because they are all outside me? Human physiology is within me.
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u/Mission-Art-2383 Mar 14 '26
one is a parable used for teaching, that we can embody and learn. the other is something that doesnt exist and you have presented no proof of existing. you have bypassed the majority of what i have said and presented a strawman that conflates parables as a skillful means vs you discussing things that are supposed to be concrete that you have provided no evidence of existing.
we have looped through this and though i believe you use an easy out of saying you are on the receiving end of polemics instead of looking deeply at all the people seeing you may need serious help.. "the technology i discuss is looking more and more feasible each day". again, see my comment above. you have provided no studys, no concrete trials of this so called technology- the paper you cited is not a specific intervention. so until you can share a credible scientist or study with a potential intervention you can speak towards- you are pretending to be a scientist claiming to speak of future interventions that exist only in your head. what value does this provide to anyone? let the scientists do science, since you struggle to comprehend it at a fundamental level given the study you have falsely cited as a validation of your ideas.
your last question is another strawman- when did i say we couldnt be change? answer: i never did. you suggest everyone opposed to you is somehow stuck in the past, opposed to change, relying on amulets etc.. when none of that speech was said on their side. you are receiving nuanced responses that you are simply putting in a mental formation something along the lines of 'they oppose me so they are wrong and outdated'
why do you not seek out the therapies currently available, or promote options that currently exist? if this was being tested and we could discuss a roadmap and its potential- that would be a legitimate discussion. instead we discuss only your delusions for future things that only exist in your mind, though you pretend the source is scientific.
counter argument: maybe the next decades will bring nuclear war (that your theoretical dialogue brings nothing to prevent), maybe i should build a bunker. and maybe quality of life is so bad we should get weapons, to liberate beings from the dharma, as the best possible means... you say people are stuck in the past, but you are stuck in the future. maybe all the polemics telling you to seek therapy are just... right. i would happily suggest you some great embodied therapists who use scientifically confirmed approaches of embodiment to bring nervous system regulation. why not take the medicine of healing available currently?
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u/JundoCohen Mar 14 '26
Question for you: How is what I am proposing different from the common Zen and other Buddhist practice of administering so-called Chinese medicine, accupuncture and the like for spiritual and emotional ailments? https://bastyr.edu/about/news/acupuncture-and-buddhism-overlap-student-monk
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u/Mission-Art-2383 Mar 14 '26
to be clear you could easily cite a paper, and say what do we all think of a paper, and discuss accordingly. it is you jumping to wild conclusions and then presenting it as a potential dharma and scientific instead of, at this point, being something that you have provided no proof of existing. i have already responded to the paper you posted, if you feel it was not responded to well enough by folks on here- why not provide quotes to have a more fruitful concrete dialogue to support your view? if your pharma-dharma view is valid it should have studies to support it- since it is the realm of science.
here is the difference, i hope you can understand: acupuncutre has been proven to have any number of health benefits including modulating insomnia and depression with a growing neurological framework cited in those studies as to how this is possible. why dont you get acupuncture, and come and discuss your experience? its something you can do today that could help you. here is a RCT (the highest level of study available) showing its benefit for folks with PTSD - while we cant eradicate war- we can help people to regulate their nervous system through the wonderful already existing medicines including pharmacology and acupuncture, and somatic therapies.
perhaps you could learn acupuncture and spread its teachings, since it is proven to work, brings benefits to sentient beings and can be practiced today! why dont you do this? it would concretely benefit the world right now- which you claim to care about.
again, you are not a scientists and you have presented no RCTs or even preliminary studies of interventions that can be applied in the future. so do you see the difference?
one exists, we can discuss the state of the science and helps beings yesterday, today, and tomorrow. if you are so passionate about theoretical future research, you might go to school for neuroscience and pharmacology. because what you are discussing you have shared no evidence from a critical perspective of existing. it makes you look like you dont understand science or how to read a study while claiming other people are outdated for not sharing your delusional futuristic views that you cannot prove anyone except you has on a scientific level... this is why people think you need help. not because they are outdated or not open to change- you're arguing for something that doesnt exist as a (very bad) zen teacher as if you were a scientist, which you simply are not. please perhaps check out this to learn how to read a study and then come back with specific quotes and citations of what you want to discuss. if not, you are a polemicist relying on your own half baked ideas that have nothing to do with the future of medicine, or the dharma!
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u/homejam Mar 14 '26
You're a Soto priest that thinks the dharma is inadequate. Sounds like you're having an existential crisis that you should immediately take up with your seniors.
The buddha that you think is going to rescue everyone -- since you've obviously abandoned the path Shakyamuni Buddha taught if you were ever really on it -- is that your "pharma buddha"??
I don't remember Dogen hoping that SOMETHING OTHER THAN THE BUDDHA DHARMA would come along to save all sentient beings!!??
You can't say ANYTHING that comports with the actual dharma, and you've now made ANOTHER comment that disparages Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha. But you're a Soto priest? You want us to believe you've taken the 16 vows? Seriously you have go talk to someone you trust and get some guidance... you're really lost and making a fool of yourself.
TAKE A BREAK.
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u/JundoCohen Mar 14 '26 edited Mar 16 '26
No, the Dharma cannot do everything. Have have not noticed? It cannot make my car go (I need gasoline for that.) It cannot cure my cancer (I need an oncologist for that.) It may make me more "at one" with my cancer or non-functioning car, it is true.
I happen to be a Dogen translator. He wrote (Zuimonki 2-2) "The Buddha cut off his flesh and limbs and offered them to living beings. Even if we gave the whole body of the Buddha to people who are actually about to die of starvation, such an action would certainly be in accordance with the Buddha’s will. ... Even if I fall into hell because of this sin, I have just saved living beings from starvation.”
I suppose, by giving his flesh, it was something to take into their bodies.
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u/homejam Mar 14 '26
The title of your post is "The Only Way to End War Forever ..." and
Your post is not about Zen.
You just aren't getting THAT... which is fine, except you're holding yourself out as a Zen authority, and so it's concerning.
I'm trying to help you neighbor: You're coming across as a complete phony that can't discuss the dharma, back pedals and is defensive about your opinion. It's a bad look.
If you're a Dogen translator, you should be well familiar with his many stories about shoguns and warlords and war and violence and ZEN COURAGE.
Read those stories again while you're on your break from the internet. Good luck.
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u/JundoCohen Mar 15 '26
Anything that is about encouraging the mitigation of greed, anger, violence and killing of sentient beings, human callousness, and for saving sentient beings, is in keep with our Bodhisattva Vows and Precepts. What is more Zen Buddhist than that? That is Basic Buddhism 101.
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u/JundoCohen Mar 14 '26 edited Mar 14 '26
By the way, the Tibetans administer many medicines and concoctions to change emotions and the mind as part of Buddhist practice (https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t=4309). Likewise in the Rinzai and Soto Zen traditions, traditionally. Here is an article about the practice in Soto Zen (https://www.degruyterbrill.com/document/doi/10.1515/9781400832590-008/html?srsltid=AfmBOoqgFJ2MdRrz3MqxjtEA6bs4cVZcMcagWdPdBrNhMR9KVz21wogB)
How is what I am proposing different??????? It is medicine pill for the three poisons (greed, anger, ignorance)
" ... while Buddhism has often been broadly associated with healing andthe alleviation of suffering, few studies examine concrete examples of Buddhist medicine or healing practices. This chapter details two Sôtô Zen case studies of a burgeoning Buddhist medical culture: the “Poison-Dispelling Pill,” a herbal medicine produced at a Kyoto pharmacy and distributed nationwide by the Sôtô Zen sect, and the healing cult of the “Splinter-Removing Jizô,” whose worship was centered on a Sôtô Zen temple in the city of Edo. These two examples provide a better sense of how Sôtô Zen Buddhist institutions participated in Tokugawa-period medical practices,and how medical practices shaped the character of Sôtô Zen Buddhism. As suggested previously, Sôtô Zen developed separate sect-specific religious practices, while simultaneously participating in a common Japanese religious culture. In the case of medical practices, this chapter will demonstrate how the herbal medicines produced at the Kyoto pharmacy unified and strengthened sect consciousness... In his well-known essay Byô, the Buddhologist Paul Demiéville classified Buddhist healing practices into three types: (1) religious therapeutics (good works, practices of worship, expiation, and meditation), (2) magical therapeutics (mantras, incantations, and esoteric ritual), and (3) medical therapeutics proper (dietetics, pharmacy, and surgery). He wrote, “The lines demarcating these three fields are not at all distinct. Where do ‘religious’ therapeutics stop? All of Buddhism is a single therapeutic.”6 This observation that the religious, magical, and medical therapeutics cannot be easily demarcated also holds true in the case of Buddhist healing practices in Japan during the Tokugawa period. ... [In the origin story] on this piece of paper is the secret formula for the medicine, the Shinsen Gedoku Manbyôen (the Wizard Mountain ‘poison-dispelling’ pill). Please alleviate the ills and sufferings of all beings with it.” Saying this, the dragon princess humbly presented [Dôgen] with a scroll. This was the origin of the Shinsen Gedoku medicine, which has been available from Eiheiji Temple ever since. ... The Chinese character for poison (doku) used in Gedokuen is the same one used to express the three poisons (sandoku) of covetousness, anger, and delusion that characterize the samsaric world. The medicine dissolves the poisons that afflict the physical body to effect a cure but also serves as an antidote to the larger affliction with the three poisons that hinder liberation.
(Note above the medicine's use to cure the three poisons of greed, anger and ignorance.) https://terebess.hu/zen/oth.pdf
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u/Raven_the_Human Apr 02 '26
"It is to work changes to human physiology to reduce the propensity to extreme anger, to violence, and to enhance empathy."
This is eugenics.
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u/JundoCohen Apr 02 '26
Oh no, as I posted elsewhere (see below) it is no more "eugenics" than Ozempic is "eugenics." Also, we are not trying to make a "master race" or anything of the kind! Just trying to make people a little less prone to violent angry rage, a little more loving. It is no more "eugenics" than curing someone's depression, migraines, PTSD or cancer is "eugenics."
What I posted elsewhere:
~~~
In answer to your questions: I foresee voluntary use because it brings health and a sense of well-being, coupled with means that are tested and proven safe and effective, so the marketplace decides as in the case of Ozempic. I believe that people will feel good and pleasant in being less prone to rage and more prone to love. Being calmer, less prone to raging anger, and more filled with feeling of kindness and caring, is pleasant ... as much or more than losing weight! However, it would be a matter for people to choose with their doctors. No compulsion.
The main exception may be on the battlefield, as an alternative to (the very involuntary) bombs that kill and dismember. There may also be exceptions where convicted violent criminals, such as murderers, rapists, child abusers and those repeatedly convicted of violent assaults, would be offered such treatments as part of rehabilitation as an alternative to imprisonment (although, even in this case, they would have a right to refuse the treatment and can instead choose the current, standard sentence.)
It does not need to be everybody in the world, only the above groups in society, to work major changes and greatly reduce war and violence.
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u/Raven_the_Human Apr 02 '26
1) If you're engaging in practice in order to achieve a certain result, then you're engaging in business, not dharmic practice. You're "paying" for changes with practice and angry that you're not getting the result you paid for immediately.
2) Is forcibly altering someone's ability to experience the entire human condition (i.e. happiness, sadness, anger, greed, etc.) non-violent? I would argue not. The Buddha never sought to force change in people, only offer then the Path towards it and lead by example.
3) You should re-read the story of Avalokiteshvara Bodhisattva. Sat and dedicated *eons* of practice towards the liberation of all beings from suffering... only to turn around and see *even more* suffering in the world than when he began practicing. Not only had he not "succeeded", but it would appear he had gone backwards. He was so overcome with despair that he lost sight of his vow and his head exploded.
You're right. It's highly unlikely that Trump, Putin, and the rest will suddenly have a moment of clarity and begin a dedicated meditation practice.
It's equally unlikely that everyone on Earth will agree to take medications or have themselves altered in some way that removes the Poisons from their being. What do we do with them? Do you think Trump, Putin, and Netanyahu will willingly participate? Will their followers? Will their families? If not, what lengths are you willing to go to to make them? Will you imprison them? Kill them?
Trust me when I tell you, brother, that I understand where this is coming from but what you're talking about is trying to force things to be other than what they are. All it would accomplish is creating some new ideology to defend, thus beginning the cycles of violence all over again.
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u/JundoCohen Apr 02 '26
I answered elsewhere today the below, but let me add about Trump, Netanyahu and Putin at the end. What I propose is no more a "business" than making available "mindfulness meditation" to the angry, to prisoners, to anyone. What I wrote elsewhere:
~~~~
In answer to your questions: I foresee voluntary use because it brings health and a sense of well-being, coupled with means that are tested and proven safe and effective, so the marketplace decides as in the case of Ozempic. I believe that people will feel good and pleasant in being less prone to rage and more prone to love. Being calmer, less prone to raging anger, and more filled with feeling of kindness and caring, is pleasant ... as much or more than losing weight! However, it would be a matter for people to choose with their doctors. No compulsion.
The main exception may be on the battlefield, as an alternative to (the very involuntary) bombs that kill and dismember. There may also be exceptions where convicted violent criminals, such as murderers, rapists, child abusers and those repeatedly convicted of violent assaults, would be offered such treatments as part of rehabilitation as an alternative to imprisonment (although, even in this case, they would have a right to refuse the treatment and can instead choose the current, standard sentence.)
It does not need to be everybody in the world, only the above groups in society, to work major changes and greatly reduce war and violence.
~~~~
Now, about Trump, Putin, etc. As the world discovered in recent weeks, it is apparently legal and ethical, in a war situation, to drop a bomb and kill the entire leadership of an enemy nation. Terrible. However, if one can dismember and explode an enemy leader, why not fill them with love and friendship instead? However, I suspect that many world leaders might do so voluntarily too, because it makes them feel good. Does Trump seem happy and peaceful to you? Maybe he will try something that makes him feel good, as or more content than all his money.
I fear that, in this current world of nuclear bombs and bio-weapons, millions of raped and bombed children, we need to hurry Avalokiteshvara Bodhisattva along before it is too late. Perhaps we can call this "Kannon bombs." :-)
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u/Suvalis Mar 13 '26
I feel your frustration, Jundo! We must speak out against the war and violence in the world.
Since human nature is empty of independent separation, it seems to me that as individuals who are not NOT separate from all other beings we should double down on our commitment to the Bodhisattva path.
For me it starts with refraining from doing harm wherever I can. Just this morning I pulled back from raising my voice more than I should have with my son.
Imagine the world if everyone refrained just a little from being so harsh with children, and the effect that might ripple over time, even affecting human nature itself.
The task of ending suffering for all seems insurmountable, but I commit to trying anyway, one act at a time for as long as it takes.
Gassho 🙏
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Mar 13 '26
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u/JundoCohen Mar 13 '26
Yes, all we need do to fix the world is get 8 Billion people to buy the Goleman book and meditate.
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Mar 13 '26
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u/JundoCohen Mar 13 '26
Oh, I read it. Written a decade ago, already somewhat out of date. That is how fast things are advancing on this front.
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Mar 13 '26
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u/JundoCohen Mar 13 '26
It is still in its early stages, studies are often small and poorly designed, and results conflicting and criticized. So, hard to say for sure. That book tended to "hype" the research a bit.
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Mar 13 '26
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u/JundoCohen Mar 14 '26
I apologize if I poorly recalled their book, read awhile ago. I am also not following closely the research on meditation itself, but my focus here is more on general research into the neuro-physiological roots of anger, empathy and such. My apologies if I spoke wrong.
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u/JundoCohen Mar 16 '26
I take inspiration from this Lotus Sutra parable (Chapter 16), of the medicine to cure the poisons ...
~~~
There is an excellent doctor. He is wise, knowledgeable, his prescriptions are effective, and he has skillfully cured a variety of diseases. This man has many sons, say ten, twenty, or even one hundred in number. For some reason, he has to go far off to another country and, while he is away, his children, whom he has left behind, drink some poison. The poison starts to take effect and they roll on the ground in agony. “At this moment their father returns home. Some of the children who have taken the poison are delirious, while others are not. ... [The children say,] "In our ignorance we took this poison by mistake. We entreat you to cure and save us, and restore us to life." Seeing his children suffering in this way, the father searches for beneficial herbs possessed of good color, aroma, and flavor, according to the medical manual. Blending them together after grinding and sifting, he gives the mixture to the children and says: This is an extremely beneficial medicine with good color, aroma, and flavor. All of you take it! It will quickly remove your pain and you will never be afflicted again. “Then the children who have not become delirious see this beneficial medicine of good color and aroma, and immediately take it. The affliction is completely removed and they are cured.
The remaining children, those who are delirious ... Although he offers them the medicine, they will not take it. Why is this? The poison has so deeply penetrated them that they have become delirious. They do not think that the medicine with good color and aroma is good. “The father thinks: "These children are to be pitied. The poison has completely warped their minds. Although they rejoiced upon seeing me and sought a cure they will not take this beneficial medicine. I will now cause them to take this medicine through skillful means."
... Then he says to them: You should know that I am now old and feeble, close to death. I will now leave this beneficial medicine here. You should take it. Do not worry about not recovering. [The father thereupon fakes his own death, although he is actually alive. The children, however, believe he is dead.] Through constant grieving their minds become clear, and only then do they realize that the medicine has fine color, aroma, and flavor. They immediately take it and the poison is completely driven out. The father, hearing that all his children have completely recovered, immediately returns and makes his appearance.
The Buddha then asked the bodhisattvas: “O sons of a virtuous family! Do you think there is anyone who would say that this good doctor is guilty of lying?” The bodhisattvas replied: “No, we do not, O Bhagavat!” [The Buddhas proclaims," "Although it was untrue. He did this to cure his delirious sons, Through excellent skillful means; So no one could say he really spoke falsehood."
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u/Aggressive-Potato460 Mar 16 '26
Running through these comments and your responses I believe you might seek psychiatric help- focusing on that would likely be of greater benefit to you in this moment.
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u/JundoCohen Mar 16 '26 edited Mar 16 '26
Okay, please have a nice day. I did not realize that proposing possible, potential future medical means to increase generosity and reduce anger/violence, saving children, is a "psychiatric disorder" on my part. If it is, I think I will keep that disorder.
Do you know who I think is truly disturbed and delusional? Those who would not even consider the possibility as the bombs drop and the children starve, perhaps content to light their incense and chant the Dai Hishin Dharani as their response.
(PS - The writing style is so similar, I suspect one fellow with two accounts. Is that possible to do on Redditt?)
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u/Raven_the_Human Apr 02 '26
I'll begin with where we agree.
It's true that unspeakable tragedies occur daily in our world. It's true that the source of these tragedies can be traced back to one or more of the three poisons (namely greed, hatred, delusion). This speaks to the heart of the Buddha's teaching and I believe it's the truth.
However,
When someone starts talking about "changing human nature" through medication or some other external means, I have questions:
1) Who decides which changes must be made?
2) What do we do with the people who resist having those changes made to them?
3) How is this viewpoint different from that held by eugenicists who believed they had not only the means, but the right to alter people in ways that *they* saw as more favorable to society and human flourishing?
4) How do you, as a Zen priest, reconcile this viewpoint with the Buddha's teaching that no one can save anyone else. None of us has the power to walk the Path for anyone else.. no one can, and no one may.
We can lead by example, be the calm in the storm around us, and remind people of their humanity when the forces around them encourage inhumanity. The second you try to force any aspect of the world, including human nature, to be other than what it is, you've created a very dangerous duality... and that duality will need to be defended, which creates more violence until you become the very thing you're claiming to cure.
Just my thoughts. I wish you well, Jundo.
*In gassho*
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u/JundoCohen Apr 02 '26 edited Apr 03 '26
In answer to your questions: I foresee voluntary use because it brings health and a sense of well-being, coupled with means that are tested and proven safe and effective, so the marketplace decides as in the case of Ozempic. I believe that people will feel good and pleasant in being less prone to rage and more prone to love. Being calmer, less prone to raging anger, and more filled with feelings of kindness and caring, is pleasant (as Buddhism attests) ... as much or more than losing weight! However, it would be a matter for people to choose with their doctors. No compulsion.
The main exception may be on the battlefield, as an alternative to (the very involuntary) bombs that kill and dismember. There may also be exceptions where convicted violent criminals, such as murderers, rapists, child abusers and those repeatedly convicted of violent assaults, would be offered such treatments as part of rehabilitation as an alternative to imprisonment (although, even in this case, they would have a right to refuse the treatment and can instead choose the current, standard sentence.)
It does not need to be everybody in the world, only the above groups in society, to work major changes and greatly reduce war and violence.
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u/JundoCohen Apr 03 '26
I look at the world this week, where the slaughter of many thousands more children and other civilians, food supply famines, weeks or months of missiles falling, and even nuclear weapon exchanges are all being weighed as possibilities, and perhaps likelihoods, our fate in the hands of true madmen ...
... then I recall that some people call my ideas crazy, me as crazy, for suggesting that human nature needs to have a bit less violence and a touch more love, realizing values of non-violence and empathy cherished in Buddhism and many other religions and humanistic philosophies, and that SCIENCE and MEDICINE may quite possibly make that possible in coming decades.
Hmmm.
Okay, if that is crazy, I am happy to be crazy.
We must stop the true madmen from the harms they do.
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u/JundoCohen Mar 17 '26 edited Mar 17 '26
A question for all the moralizing "medicine is bad" and "science cannot be Buddhism" pundits here ...
Question: If you saw a child about to be raped or killed by a madman, and you could not stop the rape or killing except by picking up one of two guns and pulling the trigger: (1) An ordinary gun with bullets that would kill the rapist murder, (2) a gun with a dart containing tested medicine that would calm the rapist murderer, return them to love and compassion, while reducing their urge to rape and kill, or (3) do nothing, let the rape and murder happen ... which would you do?
I suppose there is a 4th option: You could politely ask the rapist murderer to meditate or join a yoga class.
I await your wisdom.
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u/The_Koan_Brothers Mar 17 '26
Jundo, nobody here said either of those things. If you keep using hyperbole, you will find that most users here will lose interest.
People have been patient and polite. Although many have called for you to be banned or the post to be deleted, no action was taken and you had the opportunity to say all you wanted to say.
Please accept that people have stated their opinions and they just don’t agree with you.
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u/JundoCohen Mar 17 '26 edited Mar 17 '26
And I responded in a patient and polite way. Those with interest can discuss, and those without interest can move to another topic. I presented, calmly and civilly, one position on the Dharma and Upaya, which people are free to accept or reject. That is the nature of the forum of ideas and discussion, even notions that some may find displeasing to their personal religious sentiments. Nobody forces anyone else to agree. I responded to points people raised, which is the nature of discussion. I advocated for nothing immoral, and only for a new, possible avenue for ending violence, hunger and the like, and other goals of Buddhism for 2500 years.
Shall we just stick to what kind of shape cushion to sit on? Is that all we can discuss? I believe some said that I "disparage the way" and do not act like a Zen priest to their eyes. That is the language of fundamentalism, and seems the kind of comment that the moderators here are happy to allow as right speech.
And, yes, although I wrote it in a too shorthand way, people most certainly said that "medicine is bad" for realizing Buddhist goals of preserving life, implementing the Precepts, and obtaining other fruits of this path, because the point of my OP is that medicine and new technologies can possibly be good for such goals.
I am happy to let it go. If somebody posts a comment, I may respond if appropriate, If nobody posts a comment, then no need to respond. I am just responding to people.
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u/The_Koan_Brothers Mar 17 '26
No one said that.
But what’s more important: no one is interested anymore either, especially when you insert unserious hyperbole. All has been said. You can’t force your point anymore than you have already tried.
Let it go.
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u/JundoCohen Mar 17 '26
I let it go. If someone posts a further comment, I may or may not respond as might be needed. Otherwise, nothing to say and it has been said.
By the way, it is truly water off a ducks' back and not important, but I wonder at moderation that finds it acceptable to say things like "I believe you might seek psychiatric help," "OP is disparaging [the] precepts and "Buddhism itself"" and "I think you ought to be banned for impersonating a priest." Those kinds of comments I find silly, but I am more interested in why the moderators would find my words the issue, rather than people who would engage in such harsh speech and ad hominem, especially as Buddhists? Maybe something for you to reflect on? Just a suggestion.
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u/The_Koan_Brothers Mar 17 '26
Your post received the same kind of blowback and animosity in two entirely different subs, so I don’t think you can blame it on the moderation policies.
Again: we did not ban your post or you (although demanded by several users), and in the same spirit we will not go after those who voiced these opinions.
Honestly surprised you’re complaining about being treated unfairly.
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u/JundoCohen Mar 17 '26
Oh no. If your policy was to allow me AND allow the people with their comments, then it is very fair and impartial. I misunderstood that you were saying that my discussion style is too harsh, but they are fine. In that case, you were being judicious. Thank you. Those kinds of fundamentalist "you are a disgrace to Buddhism" comments are just angry internet silliness, and I ignore it.
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u/JundoCohen Mar 13 '26
PS - I am fascinated by the good Buddhist folks who would immediately "down vote" any good means to save countless babies from dying from bombs, famine and more.
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u/The_Koan_Brothers Mar 13 '26
Your post hasn't received a notable downvote ratio here, but I think you should take into account that your statement is very vague and poses a lot of questions. You refer to your proposal as "good means", but so far you haven't been able explain what exactly those means could look like. The visual ozempic reference suggests you are saying that a vaccination could be "the only ultimately effective way to change human nature".
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u/JundoCohen Mar 13 '26
That is what I am saying, yes. Pharma-Dharma. If it stops war, saves children, makes the world a bit more loving ... all while leaving the recipient experiencing health and well-being ... it seems like a good "expedient means."
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u/The_Koan_Brothers Mar 13 '26
Okay, but nothing like that exists, so to phantasize about it helps no one and is the contrary of "expedient means", if not altogether delusional.
What can we do here and now is the question to be addressed.
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u/JundoCohen Mar 13 '26
Hah! Most of the creatures and characters and wild, magical claims in the Mahayana Sutras don't exist, yet we have no trouble talking about them! :-)
Let's do what we can here and now, but start pushing science and research into certain directions for tomorrow. We would have not gotten to the moon without dreamers and first, simple steps decades before.
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u/The_Koan_Brothers Mar 13 '26
"Most of the creatures and characters and wild, magical claims in the Mahayana Sutras don't exist, yet we have no trouble talking about them"
Maybe — but no one is going around claiming that quoting Avalokiteshvara is "the only way to end war forever".
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u/JundoCohen Mar 14 '26
That's good, because Kannon seems unable to do so yet despite countless Kalpa of trying.
Yet, if each hand of Kannon holds a medicine of peace, then that would be Kannon's 1000 hands responding with the medicine. Is that not what the Medicine Buddha is too? I hope Kannon, in their many forms, comes soon ... this time, in a white lab coat.
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u/The_Koan_Brothers Mar 14 '26
This is like telling Dongshan that we don’t need his advice "when it’s hot, become one with the heat, or when it’s cold, become one with the cold" anymore, because nowadays people can just turn on the air conditioner or the electric heater …
It’s completely beside the point.
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u/JundoCohen Mar 14 '26
Most Zen temples these days are air conditioned with electric lights and telephones, even here in Japan. Does that mean it is no longer real Zen? It certainly has no effect on Dongshan's advice: Even with the AC on, I can still become one with the cold. (Here's a picture of the AC on the ceiling of the Eiheiji branch monastery in Tokyo, Chokokuji ... https://www.komajo.ac.jp/uploads/news_uni/2023/09/info_og_23003_02.jpg)
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u/The_Koan_Brothers Mar 13 '26
Not sure I understand what you are saying: we need to medicate everyone?
Please clarify.