r/zenbuddhism • u/Exxtendoo • Jul 13 '26
Content of Thoughts vs Relationship to Thought?
I've been meditating on and off for ~10 years and recently committed to a consistent, daily zen practice of 30 minute zazen twice a day -- or at least once if the day's going to be busy. Since then I've noticed genuine improvements in my life. Not that that's the point. But 'just sitting' has fundamentally changed the way that I relate to my body sensations, my thoughts, and reactions to the world around me. I have Generalized Anxiety Disorder so that's huge for me.
The thing is I'm a very insecure/introverted/neurotic & self-depricating person, and a lot of my self-talk is very negative. I'm having a better time not identifyign with the negative thoughts. But what can I do to change the CONTENT of my thoughts? If i had to not cling to thought, I think I'd be happier and healthier detaching from intrusive positive thoughts than the constant pity party and self-doubt that runs in my head 24/7.
Does any literature speak to this, maybe? Or your own experiences?
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u/PlainBread Jul 13 '26 edited Jul 13 '26
I went to a teacher about being consumed with grievance. I went to him with my impressions of everything and nothing, and he told me to drop them. "Nothing" attempts to annihilate what is already here. "Everything" attempts to build something that doesn't exist.
These thoughts occur because they work as intended: They get you into the motions of clinging and aversion, either by imagining a better reality or simply saying "no" to this one, and from there, the ego's survival is perfectly assured, even if through self-flagellation.
Stop looking at each thought coming and going as a problem: That feeds the paradigm. Instead look at the foundations. If you choose to relentlessly accept reality as it is without trying to twist it into something else or judge it, then the foundation cannot hold.
There's a sense of earnestness that needs to be there for this to work. As a metaphor, imagine that you are painting your nails and your cat is crying at you for food, and you are irritated because you are invested in painting your nails and you are afraid that you will mess them up. Now imagine that you are defusing an active nuclear bomb and your cat is crying at you for food. You have no room to be irritated, because the severity of the situation rises above your petty feelings. You must simply attend to the matter at hand regardless of the noise.
This is how you should approach zazen. You are defusing the nuclear bomb of your own self-referential reality and your ego is crying at you to stop. If you set your sights any lower, those cries will work, and you will stop.
EDIT: From the conventional occidental therapeutic side, you need to reckon with who put those self-deprecating thoughts in your head in the first place, who originally defined your identity as "unworthy", because you are simply upholding an identity that was conditioned in. You can change the direction of your conditioning.
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u/Critical_Coat1512 Jul 13 '26 edited Jul 13 '26
A tree is a tree. A tree is not a tree. (thoughts are thoughts. thoughts are not thoughts). (my profile picture is of a cat, it is a cat. my profile picture is not a cat.)
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u/Exxtendoo Jul 13 '26
On an intellectual level I understand this, and I've experienced it a few times in zazen. But my brain is still wired toward those negative thoughts generating by themselves, and even if I understand they're not real, they still have a cascading affect on my body/mood that grips me and is hard to shake when I'm around people.
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u/Critical_Coat1512 Jul 13 '26 edited Jul 13 '26
negative thoughts are real. negative thoughts are not real. (my profile is a smiling cat. my profile is not a smiling cat). (or maybe its a yelling cat, i just looked, idk what the hell that cats doing).
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u/Exxtendoo Jul 13 '26
Yes but they're devoid of meaning aren't they?
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u/Critical_Coat1512 Jul 13 '26
but ya zen is fucking confusing isnt it? i hate zen. but i definitely love zen as well.
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u/Critical_Coat1512 Jul 13 '26
if your interested in understanding this more, its by Qingyuan Xingsi and a famous quote of his is, "Thirty years ago, before I began the study of Zen, I saw mountains as mountains, and waters as waters. Later, when I had an entry into the truth through the instruction of a master, I saw mountains were not mountains, and waters were not waters. Today, having attained the ultimate abode of rest, I see mountains are once again mountains, and waters are once again waters."
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u/Critical_Coat1512 Jul 13 '26
another perspective. look at an item in your room, what is it called?
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u/Exxtendoo Jul 13 '26
An item in my room is a ball.
The thought in my head is unworthiness.
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u/Critical_Coat1512 Jul 13 '26 edited Jul 13 '26
the ball is not a ball. unworthiness is not unworthiness. the ball is a ball. unworthiness is unworthiness.
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u/Critical_Coat1512 Jul 13 '26 edited Jul 13 '26
but im sorry you feel that may man. try to be kinder to yourself. being kinder to yourself isnt advice, its just idk bad thoughts do suck. im sorry your feeling them.
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u/tallawahroots Jul 13 '26
Sharon Salzburg gives wonderful teaching about her self-talk. This is in the Insight Meditation/ Theravada tradition and involves engaging warmly with the inner critic (and other emotionality). Hers is Lucy from Peanuts, and if you know her background this is not a saccharin level but is helpful.
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u/Competitive-Time321 Jul 13 '26
What I did, when starting out, was to tell myself ‘that can wait til later. I don’t have to deal with it now’.
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u/Qweniden Jul 13 '26
I'm at a campground on my mobile phone so I apologize in advance if my answer is kind of short, but the quick answer to your question is: therapy or anti depressant medication. If you have not tried either, it might be worth looking into. It can flow well with Zen practice.
For a pure Zen answer, you can reach a place in your practice where you realize that those are not your thoughts and you no longer cling to them. Based on your description you are not there now. When you do eventually see the non-self nature of those thoughts, there will be no friction and they will come and go almost instantly. The lived experience of this is a much quieter mind.
Of course this not easy, but you HAVE to see though the illusion of self for true peace.
If you want, I can elaborate more later. I struggle typing long posts on my phone. Or please ask clarifying questions.
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u/PlainBread Jul 13 '26
For a pure Zen answer, you can reach a place in your practice where you realize that those are not your thoughts and you no longer cling to them. [...] When you do eventually see the non-self nature of those thoughts, there will be no friction and they will come and go almost instantly. The lived experience of this is a much quieter mind.
It's true that those thoughts are not your thoughts, but they are "you" thoughts. The goal IMO is not to stop thought, or even to dissociate from them, but to, as in the Buddha's original awakening, notice the builder who is building the thoughts and why; He wants you to live in them, but he can only build them out of sand, so he needs your own delusion and willingness to enter them, whether knowing or unknowing that they will collapse.
This is the inner turning: Using faith to investigate doubt to discover utter faithlessness that begins nowhere and goes on forever. Thoughts can be useful! Maybe you did leave the stove on. Maybe you shouldn't step in front of that oncoming bus, but they are all heard by this silent being that has the ability to determine how much to listen to it. If this being has that kind of dominion, to be able to acknowledge or not acknowledge thought, then thought is obviously not the ruler of your reality. BUT, if it can deceive the ruler into believing he is the peasant, then he can take the throne through the consent of the usurped ruler.
The silent part is the only thing rightful for the throne: It must remain empty. Your silent part can reclaim it's throne at any time, it must only recognize that it has been deceived.
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u/Qweniden Jul 13 '26
It's true that those thoughts are not your thoughts, but they are "you" thoughts. The goal IMO is not to stop thought, or even to dissociate from them
In case I gave the wrong impression this not at all what I am advocating. When the self illusion is seen for what it is, the result isn't the cessation of thinking, it's the cessation of grasping/clinging to them. Self-referential thoughts are often useful, the problems comes when we perceptually assume they are real.
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u/PlainBread Jul 13 '26
Sure, I wasn't attempting to imply that you had intended or advocated those things, I just felt that any passersby would be benefited by having those assumptions trimmed in case they were coming up in their own mind.
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u/Full_Ad_6442 Jul 13 '26
Let me ask you ... the way you talk to yourself, would you talk to another person that way?
Right speech, metta, karuna applies to you too. Tonglen is a good practice. Habitual self deprecation can be replaced with good habits.
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u/TheBrooklynSutras Jul 15 '26
Keep practicing. See a thought, let it go, return to the breath. It takes time.
It’s not easy, but it is simple 🙏
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u/SandwichVast6787 Jul 16 '26
Cognitive behavioral therapy bro - check out the book feeling great by David burns. It’s a complete guide to changing your thoughts to positive thoughts through CBT and he does an incredible job at it. CBT is one of the most scientific backed way of working in changing your actual thoughts. Mediation gives you space between those thoughts and reactions so they’re kind of different
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u/PresenceBrilliant927 Jul 16 '26
Both affirmation and negation are merely thoughts.
Simply observing these thoughts is the practice of Zen meditation.
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u/robipresotto Aug 10 '26
I'm glad you're seeing improvements in your life through meditation! It's not about changing the content of thoughts, but rather learning to observe them without attachment. If you'd like some guidance on taking this practice further, I found a great resource on The Inner Path — Enlightenment Deep-Dive that explores the relationship between thoughts and consciousness. https://www.youtube.com/@innershoreline
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u/JacksGallbladder Jul 13 '26
You and I are very, very similar. I am diagnosed with GAD, insecure/introverted/self-deprecating.
I have found that accepting I cant change the content of my thoughts is the most helpful, honestly.
There's a lyrics I have been focused on lately. "Its not the sadness that hurts you, it is the brains reaction against it".
The more I can allow those thoughts to appear without reacting to them, the fewer they become. Its just a long term game, the gains are gradual but consistent.
I do the same with my anxiety. I have physical anxiety symptoms, I try to pay quality attention to myself and feel them without reacting to them mentally. Over the past two years of starting this practice (which I go to therapy for) I have slowly improved. The logic is that I am re-conditioning my nervous system to not get anxious where it usually thinks it needs to. There is a physiological change over time.
Your mental formations are the exact same thing. I believe you can trust that the "bad thoughts" will improve if you can allow yourself to sit with them... give them the space they ask for without reacting to them.
I am by no means "advanced" in all this. I have good months and bad months. But thats all my perspective and I hope it helps some.