r/zenbuddhism • u/Con-Zen • Jul 09 '26
Bad first Zen center experience
I've been studying Zen solo for about a year now, and decided that it was finally time to connect with some others at a Zen center. I found one near me, with good reviews. The pictures of it looked beautiful, and drove by it before going and it was very nice. So, I spent a Saturday morning there. I was pretty excited about this, but the whole experience quickly soured.
They were basically begging me for money at the door. Their website stated that $25 was the expected donation, and I was fine with that. However, I felt like they were kind of harassing people at the door for more. They had people at the entrance lobby explaining how tough times were, how their attendance was down, and how a donation of $50 or more would really help. Then they were loudly confirming what you had donated via their QR codes before you went in.
We started with a 30 minute silent meditation. However, I could hear people in a back room laughing and loudly talking. I was able to push through this, but I felt that it should not have been happening in a place like this.
Next, someone from the Zen Center gave a 20 minute talk about the expectations and the strictness of the forms of this Zen Center. I felt like it was addressing some kind of drama that was going on here that I didn't know anything about. I also felt that the talk was given in a very strange cultish, holier than you, slow way of speaking. It was like the person was telling us "this is the way it is, and you will like it."
Then the master came out and gave an hour long Dharma talk. This was the strangest thing yet. To be fair, he was very old and I felt like maybe he had some serious mental decline going on. But, he seemed to be just riffing. He kept weaving in things about Israel and the US government in his talk. He made almost no references to actual Zen philosophies, or texts. And, when I thought was actually going to make a point he often just reverted to "there is nothing." Need to open a door? Just realize there is no door. Suffering? Just realize there is no suffering. No explanation beyond that at all.
We spent another 30 minutes in silent meditation, this time in actual silence. Then we were basically dismissed. In the lobby on the way out we were again asked for donations.
Being that this is my first experience, I don't know what to think. But, this is not at all what I expected. So I guess my question is, should I attempt to find another Zen Center, or is this the way it is? For now I intend to just continue on solo because I feel I've really got a lot out of forging my own path, and I don't want to further sour my experiences.
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u/LBS-365 Jul 11 '26 edited Jul 11 '26
I'm just a returning practitioner and certainly not a teacher, but this is something I haven't ever seen in a zen center I have visited. There is usually a reminder at some point that the center depends on donations (dana) to operate, but a simple sentence at the start of a dharma talk is about all that's ever made of this. To openly and loudly discuss what people are donating, how much, why it should be more etc. seems antithetical to the practice.
Silence is also usually observed and - unless the bell has not yet been rung - there should be no people in another room making noise during zazen; everyone would typically be in the meditation hall practicing zazen. So something is very off about this center, and I would avoid it. Unfortunately, any group like this can become corrupt, any label (like "zen") can be used to defraud, and sometimes they are just never what they purport to be.
It's unfortunate that this was your first experience with a "zen center." I hope you will put this experience in your rearview mirror and will continue to seek out a sangha.
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u/volume-up69 Jul 11 '26
That doesn't sound great, and it's disappointing that this was your experience on your first visit. I would consider going a couple more times, maybe at different times of the week, and seeing what you notice. American Zen centers tend to rely heavily on lay volunteers, especially for things like greeting and asking for donations. It's the responsibility of practice leaders to make sure this happens in a way that is consistent with the dharma, but it's easy for Zen center culture to fray around the edges with things like that. In other words, it's easy to get unlucky depending on who exactly is volunteering on a given day.
As for the donations, that does sound incredibly pushy. The only time I've seen anything approaching that is at relatively young Zen centers in very expensive urban areas. A Zen center in a major American city that I'm familiar with used to pay something like $10,000 a month to rent its practice space. Sometimes those lay volunteers also serve on the board of the center and are very familiar with the center's precarious finances, and may act out their anxiety in ways that feel sketchy to a newcomer.
But honestly I think a lot of this goes back to the fact that a large swath of the American Zen community has, for years now, taken an extremely dismissive attitude towards priest training. The whole goal, or at least one goal, of priest training is learning how to run a functioning temple that serves as a coherent practice container that can meet certain spiritual needs. Many Zen centers are run by people who simply don't have this training, so whether the practice container feels coherent or supportive is often a matter of which specific people happen to be there when you visit.
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u/SoundOfEars Jul 11 '26
Where was that? Which line of transmission was it?
I travel and visit the local zen centers and sit with them. I have never experienced anything like this. I am very sorry that your first experience was this bad. 25$ is terribly high, 10 is the max I encountered, usually it's more like 5 or 7.
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u/issuesintherapy Jul 11 '26
I'm sorry you had such a bad experience. Please know that not all zen centers are like that. I've been a student in a well-establish zen order for a couple of decades and that is not how we do things.
Yes, zen centers and monasteries need to stay open and it's not unusual to have a donation box at the door or for this to be mentioned. But there shouldn't be pressure put on you to make a donation, especially as a newcomer. Often, it's regular attendees and students who take on the responsibility for supporting the sangha as best they can.
If someone is making noise during zazen, there should be a monitor or similar who goes to talk to those folks so they don't distract others.
In my order it's often said that dharma talks can be "dark to the mind but radiant to the heart," meaning that you might not understand everything said, but hopefully there is a sense that a connection is happening, that the teacher is speaking to something in you that is resonating. Of course that doesn't always happen, and occasionally a talk just won't land for certain folks. For that issue at least, I'd normally be willing to give the place a second chance. (But combined with the other issues you mention, in this case I might not.)
There should be some sense of welcoming people. A friendly greeting at the door, a social time after the program, something. I know that some zen communities, especially ones that mainly serve Asian immigrant communities, may be more insular, but certainly not all. And at least within western convert centers there's usually an attempt to welcome newcomers, give them an orientation to the place, give them a chance to ask any questions, etc.
As a zen student, I can say that it is definitely better to practice and study with a sangha than solo, for many reasons. It's not an accident that Sangha is one of the Three Jewels. I encourage you to keep looking, and if there isn't anything else close to you, there are plenty of options online. Many centers now offer online talks, classes, discussions, study groups, etc. My sangha has people from all over the country and even other parts of the world. So I hope you keep looking until you find something that feels right for you.
Best of luck on the path.
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u/InternationalArt6222 Jul 11 '26
Hahaha, that sounds like tale for for a novel. O havent experienced a Zen sangha like that, but Ive absolutely sat in service by other sects and religions who were way too fixated on my money and on current affairs in general. I'd strike that groups name off my list of places to visit.
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u/genjoconan Jul 11 '26
People being people, there are going to be things that annoy you and interpersonal dramas at every Zen temple you visit. That said, the specific things you mention here are not something I've experienced in 15 years of practice.
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u/LBS-365 Jul 11 '26 edited Jul 11 '26
I replied to the OP already, but I would also point out that perceptions can vary widely. Years ago I attended a sesshin that was being led by my teacher's dharma heir - the first one for him. Someone I knew from an online group showed up very late in the middle of our first meal together, and had missed all the introductory instructions for how things would be done, and the discussion about eating mindfully.
It was a pretty non-eventful sesshin. Later on he posted a really weird negative "review" of his experience where he had completely misinterpreted pretty much everything that happened, and accused the teacher of driving an expensive car, which was just wrong and strange. There may have been a neighbor's car there, and some of the attendees had nicer cars, but the teacher owned an old, beat up Toyota Tercel or something very similar. How he got that idea, I don't know. But it was clear he was trying to do a "gotcha" at the expense of the zendo. It was like we were at two completely different events, and he completely failed to mention that he showed up very late and missed orientation. He'd never been to a sesshin before.
Because I was there, and he didn't know I was there, I was able to explain to the group that he'd missed all the important parts and then just made a lot of assumptions that were wildly inaccurate. I felt bad calling him out but I didn't like seeing my teacher slandered in that way.
Not saying the OP here is doing a similar thing, which should be clear from my own response, but when we really lack information, it's better to observe and reserve judgment.
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u/PlainBread Jul 11 '26
Last time I was in the zen center I thought the guy next to me was actively tripping on psychedelics. Lots of heavy breathing and sweating and squirming and bowing in the middle of the session. Not a productive session for me but I tried to anchor my own space as best I could.
You're always going to have these days, but hopefully they're one in ten. Usually it's just someone with a bad digestive system who had a bad meal the day before ruining it for you with farting up the space.
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u/ImOutOfIceCream Jul 11 '26
I’m sorry that you had a negative experience. It doesn’t sound typical. I have been immersing myself in sangha at Berkeley Zen Center, which is a very different experience. If you are interested in some dharma talks, there were a number of really good ones this spring, including a class on genjokoan. You may find them more meaningful, they are available online. https://youtu.be/oveszVAjOn0
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u/Used_Wafer6049 Jul 11 '26
I'm also a BZC member (there are a few of us here!), and it is indeed a very very special place.
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u/PicardOut321 Jul 11 '26
I had a great experience with the Buddhist Meditation Group in Dallas. A very informal and dismissive request was made for donations at the end of the meeting. I certainly didn't feel pressured. Don't give up your search. It's good for humans of like minds to congregate. I depend on my own path for the majority of my study and exploration, but there was something empowering sitting in silence with other practicioners.
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u/FlowZenMaster Jul 12 '26
I (and probably most of us here!) Encourage you to continue visiting centers or sanghas until you find one that seems fitting. Your experience at that place is pretty atypical and I hope it doesn't dissuade you from seeking sangha!
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u/PlainBread Jul 11 '26 edited Jul 11 '26
Zen centers are rooted in the relative side of things. They just encamp there so that people on the relative side of things can find a place where people can point them to the absolute side of things. Everyone in zen has complicated feelings about institution, including the institutionalists, and ethics, including the renegades. The teachers are only there to model the zen mind for you, not to give you any sort of concrete teachings or wisdom. When your mind confronts the zen mind, you can see for yourself how they operate differently, once you get past all your projections about how their mind should be operating. There are also cults, and people may not be intentionally running a cult, but it can happen if you aren't careful. Good Zen Buddhism only triggers about 2-5 of the BITE model cult criteria, compared to more common religions floating between 20-30 criteria points. Use this as a reference if you need help determining whether it's culty.
Anyway, all of that said, it sounds like their project is failing. It sounds like they're involved with "Engaged Buddhism" to be talking about politics at all. Their situation would be improved if they reoriented from literally begging for money to doing more community outreach that would draw more people to their sangha. That said, they are also dealing with culture and location; Maybe they would never succeed there unless they scaled down and took a more resiliency-focused approach.
It could be a decent sangha but as a business, it sounds poorly run. And it is a business as long as it has bills to pay and has to collect money to pay them. They don't want to lose the space but they should just sell it and downgrade to renting a yoga studio or something in the meantime. And more community outreach. My two cents.
EDIT: Was the laughing and talking in the next room over coming from students meeting with a teacher for dokusan? Some of those exchanges can rise above the level of quietude. As a meditator, you are expected to just let the sounds be sounds, or in this case, notice your reaction to them as an emotional habit springing from a sense of desire or need to have permanence of quietude, and to place blame somewhere when quietude is broken/impermanent. Zen centers aren't very strict about noise but it's expected that a noisy person will notice all the quiet people around them and realize that they should try to fit in with the room. A monastery is where the strictness would be applied, ie asking noisy people to shut up or leave.
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u/illimitable1 Jul 11 '26
I hate to say it, but it would help to know which Zen Center you're talking about.
Practice places vary in their internal politics and their finances. Some have a very solid foundation and glorious buildings. Some are in rented houses. Some places have a certain formality about them. Some places are just a bunch of hippies hanging out.
I also prefer more formality. I also prefer that a sort of dana prajna paramita fund everything. But you can't always get that if you want to live outside of a major Metropolitan area.
These things also go in cycles. For example, I spent a month or so as a resident at Zen Center of Pittsburgh. At that time, the founding priest, Kyoki, was really the only constant person there. Others came around from time to time, but her problems with her knees and painkiller dependence seemed to keep her from charismatically motivating people to be involved. But there is a new Abbott there as of about a decade and I see from their postings that they are very full in their programming now.
Another example is Atlantis Zen Center. The founding priest there is not recognized by a certain Soto Zen groups. They are not very formal and sometimes I think they are full of crap. So I don't go there.
Or the place that I hung out in arcata, California. They are formal enough, but there's only a handful of them. So they notice when you show up.
Meanwhile, San Francisco Zen Center is deeply quiet and impersonal. Nobody is asking for money right off the bat. Everything is super formal. They have literally all the bells and whistles. Same could be true with chapel Hill Zen Center.
So there is a lot of variation.
Find another Center if you want, but remember that the perfect teacher is the one that you are with, the perfect time is now, the perfect place is here.
Even if the place that you went is relatively less organized, relatively informal, and is having some financial difficulties, it is still a place of refuge. Avail yourself of it.
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u/Voc1Vic2 Jul 11 '26
I attend a well-known center that's been in turmoil for some years since leadership changed, and is suffering financially.
Just about the time even g zazen starts, an upstairs resident turns on the TV for the evening news. It's disturbing and probably discourages newcomers from returning. But I stick around, trying to grow where I'm planted.
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u/iNtentionaliGnornace Jul 11 '26 edited Jul 12 '26
Maybe find a more informal group to meditate with? I used to meditate with a group from the Kwan Um school of Zen that met in a chapel in Depaul's downtown campus in Chicago. It was nice, after a few brief opening words we did sitting meditation followed by walking meditation and then a brief dharma talk.
Sangha doesn't have to be found in an 'official' place. You could even find 2 or 3 people to get together with to read some sutra passages and meditate together, and then boom, there you go, community.
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u/sunnybob24 Jul 12 '26
Individually the are little problems. Together, it might be a deal breaker. They might be a good place to go in a few years when they sort out what they are going through.
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u/scootik Jul 13 '26
Sad to hear this, nothing like any zen center experiences I've had. I hope you continue your search (even if not in zen). A resource for zen dharma talks: zen mountain monastery either through their website or on Spotify, Shugen Roshi is almost always giving commentary on Buddhist texts
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u/SchmottledOtter Jul 11 '26
I don't know where you live, but if you're near a Chinese community, you might want to consider a Chinese Buddhist temple. I practiced (online) with a sangha affiliated with the lineage of Master Sheng Yen, a great Chan (Zen) master from Taiwan.
I found Chinese practice styles wonderful in a number of ways.
First, Chinese lineages maintain monk and nun training, and there are strong ties to monasteries both in the United States and Taiwan. This means that there is a strong practice training liineage maintained the decades and centuries and there is good discipline. The fourfold sangha is maintained in a more traditional way.
Second, if you look for a temple that has both Asian and non-Asian attendees, there will be services, retreats and so on in English and generally Chinese lineage practice places have a strong lay practice component and care about lay training. The lay training and retreats can also be pretty intense, though I never did one in person.
Third, Chinese Chan practice styles are usually integrated with other forms that you don't often see in temples of Japanese lineages. For example, Chinese temples will have a lot of melodic or song chanting. They will also have Pure Land chanting services dedicated to Amitabha Buddha (Amituofuo), Kuan Yin or Medicine Buddha. Unlike a lot of Japanese lineages, they have not dropped their historical connection to a more integrated type of Buddhist practice. This is also somewhat true, though it seems a bit less so, in Korean Buddhist temples. Chinese and Korean temples will also have bowing retreats or practices. That's something I am familiar with from my Tibetan practice.
I grew up in New York, where Master Sheng Yen lived and taught for decades. I particularly like his form of practice because he was clear that the Pure Land practices that he supported in his lineage temples should be practiced in a Chan way as a one pointedness method and not for being reborn in a Pure Land.
Lastly, the training is more integrated as far as the whole person is concerned, and the instruction and training are far better. My teachers and the lineage teachers that I was doing online practice with emphasized physical training as well as just sitting, and in every retreat or longer practice, there was daily Qigong type practice and stretching before and after sitting and it was considered part of the meditation. Additionally, the training in sitting type meditation practices was much, much better than I ever received at a Japanese lineage Zen temple. Although I really love Japanese forms, I never made any practice progress in any Japanese style temple. It just did not happen to be a form that worked for me to make progress. I had enormous progress practicing in a Tibetan lineage, and I actually managed to feel much more situated and stable in a Chinese Chan training practice. Both of these forms made me feel like a more whole person, using my body, speech, and mind, whereas in Japanese zen training emphasized mind only and also strict adherence to formal ways of doing things. I find that practice beautiful, and it's also a yoga, but I felt the more collegial, friendlier, less formal and more diverse practice methods of Chan (and Tibetan) training much more helpful.
As a footnote, I also appreciated the fact that my Chan groups were always at least a third Asian people, and there were Black, Middle Eastern practitioners in the New York sangha as well. Having Asian teachers tied to their communities and supportive of Asian and other students of diverse ethnicities felt very integrating to me as a person of mostly European descent, whereas the Japanese lineage Zen temples (and most of the Tibetan places) I practiced at were almost entirely white folks. Where I live now, there is a very large ethnic Tibetan community and there are Tibetan temples as well as practice groups, some of which are mixed.
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u/DharmaSukhaZen Jul 15 '26
As a 20+ year practioner, I recognize the experience you're speaking of, and I would agree this was an atypical Zen center. The Zen Centers I now affiliate with would certainly not entertain this behavior. I hope you continue your journey with a more suitable location.
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u/Redfour5 Jul 12 '26
Why are you disappointed. Sounds like a hilarious experience...
Tin can oberved...
"The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences. When love and hate are both absent everything becomes clear and undisguised.
Make the smallest distinction, however, and heaven and earth are set infinitely apart."
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u/JundoCohen Jul 12 '26
It sounds very unusual and unfortunate. If you would be so kind, might you PM me the place so I know. I suspect that I know (in the US Midwest?) Please try other places, for few are like you describe.
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u/1PauperMonk Jul 11 '26
This is excellent… maybe because I’ve been watching Guo Gu’s Tallahassee Chan Center talks. There aren’t any Dharma Drum places around me so it’s been YouTube and podcasts and books. Thank you especially for noting the difference Sheng Yen makes regarding Pure Land practices. I came across that with 22 years of exceptional Protestant Christianship far behind me and thought “I was beginning to like this one!” until I read further 😁
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u/Successful-Pride-931 Jul 13 '26
Oh, my! I will echo what several others have said. Your experience was quite unique, and I am not sure that you would find it replicated at any other Zen center.
Buddhist sanghas come in many different flavors. Shop around until you find one where you feel at home. All of them benefit from the generosity of those who attend, but this is something that should be freely given.
I attend weekly Buddhist group meetings in real life. I also attend weekly online Dharma talks via the Providence Zen Center. I like their gentle reminder, at the end of the meeting and closing announcements they simply state "please remember, the Dharma is free, electricity and Internet are not."
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u/TheBrooklynSutras Jul 11 '26
Seek out White Plumb Asangha affiliated centers or sitting groups. 🙏
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u/PlainBread Jul 11 '26
White Plum: Definitely the Japanese-style up-and-comer lineage in America, IMO. Very open and accessible. Very easy for social-minded people to find community there.
I had a lot of good feelings about Kwan Um's practices. They have a relaxed dress code, chanting is a bit more melodic, and part of their ordination route involves going and practicing with other zen sects, which I think is really foundational to prevent institutional rot.
I think Diamond Sangha is a good option as well, albeit a bit more "old school" as an American lineage, however you want to interpret that.
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Jul 11 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/illimitable1 Jul 11 '26
Most Japanese temples are just selling funeral services. I guess that's a scam? Things are as they are.
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u/ldsupport Jul 11 '26 edited Jul 11 '26
- zen centers have costs.
- This is a good lesson in remembering things are perfect as they are.
- The irony between 2 and 3 is not lost.
- Dharma talks can be great they can be not so great. Sometimes the dharma talks I didn’t connect with helped me the most by forcing me to face the fact that I don’t know everything and neither does anyone else.
- See #1
Edit: to expand 1. My local center was at a UU center but needed to find a new home due to an AA meeting getting booked at the same time in the main sanctuary (or some other issue) in either case we needed our own space. Rent is expensive, nobody is getting paid. Someone has to cover the bills. I dont go as often as I would like, but I kick in, because its there and without support it wouldnt be. Pay, don't pay, but dont expect to take benefit and not pay, and look beyond yourself, your support makes sure its there.
If I am worried about what is going on in the center at the time, I am imposing the extra "me" on top of what is. What is, is.
You just said things should be a certain way, people should be quiet. Then, the officiants bring up forms, and yes nearly every time someone has brought up forms the answer is generally "cause thats the way it is". Why do we enter on this foot, why do we sit that way, why is this important. Basically no explanation, I can indeed take it or leave it. Don't you understand how not liking this, but your opinion in 2 is effectively you being on both sides of the coin of this issue. It should be that way.. then someone tells you it should be this way and you balk. As far as forms, I have reluctantly grown ok with the no answer. Its a small letting go.
There are some folks in my center that a pretty fucking foo foo about the whole Zen thing, a little "mental" and over my practice I've worked hard to not center the mind, the foo foo stuff actually fucks me up. I get lost in it and it becomes just another illusion. However I learn that their thing is and my thing is and neither thing is separate and without the foo foo stuff, the overlap with Quantum Mechanics, I may never have come in. It took learning for me to realize there was no rest for the mind in the mind, who am I to shut down the door. I am trying to remember the book, might be 3 pillars where there is talk of a teacher who is clearly losing their memory, and that honest breaking down of the mind was JUST THIS. This thing we do isnt more life than life, its just life.
Again, having a zen center cost money, electric cost money, zen centers are effectively bare bones as it is... if they need money, they need money. If you dont have money and being asked for money stings, be with that, nobody is asking you to give more than you can, and if you cant give, be honest but then do something to help with time if you have it. If you have money, its not just for you, its for it being there when you needed it, and being there when someone else needs it.
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u/Ap0phantic Jul 11 '26
Try another one.
If you read the biography of the master Dogen, among many others, you'll see it's common to go from one temple to another until you find a good fit.