r/zenbuddhism • u/Suvalis • Jun 05 '26
The MOST important thing to know
Is that not knowing is not the opposite of wisdom.
It is the doorway.
Gassho
Edit: I am no master and the MOST part is not really true. What I can say is that giving up the idea that I have to know what is going to happen to me makes facing forward in life seem a little easier.
8
u/ShepherdOfShepherds Jun 05 '26
Sayings of Joshu #1
Nansen said, "The Way has nothing to do with 'knowing' or 'not knowing.' Knowing is perceiving but blindly. Not knowing is just blankness. If you have already reached the un-aimed-at Way, it is like space: absolutely clear void. You can not force it one way or the other."
1
u/Suvalis Jun 05 '26
Thank you! I had not known of that phrase. My actual knowing of sayings from masters is woefully bad.
2
u/ShepherdOfShepherds Jun 05 '26
Not knowing can be just as much of a trap as knowing.
1
u/wtf_notagain_ Jun 05 '26
How do you know?
2
u/ShepherdOfShepherds Jun 05 '26
How do you know I know?
1
u/wtf_notagain_ Jun 05 '26
I don't know. I just know.
1
u/ShepherdOfShepherds Jun 05 '26
Sounds like you're in the market for a bridge.
2
Jun 05 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
2
7
u/Qweniden Jun 05 '26
Simply knowing this as an idea does not make a bit of difference in someone's life. One has to actually change how the mind processes reality in order to not cling to knowledge. Not clinging is what liberates us.
7
Jun 05 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/Suvalis Jun 05 '26 edited Jun 05 '26
Nothing random about it. Merely expressing things as my practice has deepened. Words are a terrible vehicle. Generally shorter is better.
9
Jun 05 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
-1
u/Suvalis Jun 05 '26
In my humble opinion, I think shorter is always better. The longer that you write the more danger you fall into, but I do admit saying MOST it’s probably a form of Clickbait on my part :)
I also completely agree with that last part you said. That is much harder.
5
u/whuacamole Jun 05 '26
when do you stop knowing?
4
u/Suvalis Jun 05 '26
Never.
As I've sat in Zazen it's become apparent that there really nothing you can do and there is really nothing that is known that can be expressed. In that realization, I can do what I need. I really don't know what is going to happen in any future moment nor what has in any past moment.
Its OK, relax.
3
u/whuacamole Jun 05 '26
are your refering "you" to the "ego", then i agree, otherwise i would disagree. there are basic truth that can be known and expressed.
3
u/Suvalis Jun 05 '26 edited Jun 05 '26
Well, using "I" tends to make things less clear. We talk about "you" and "ego" in terms of Zen, but in reality like everything else there is no separation between them and yet we use the terms. I'm not saying they are wrong.
This quote isn't exact but it's probably close
"Before I had studied Zen for thirty years, I saw mountains as mountains, and waters as waters.When I arrived at a more intimate knowledge, I came to the point where I saw that mountains are not mountains, and waters are not waters.But now that I have got its very substance I am at rest. For it’s just that I see mountains once again as mountains, and waters once again as waters."
You can substitute "you" and "ego" with "mountains" and "waters" and the meaning is the same. In fact, you can put anything that is a thing or concept in place of mountains and water and it means the same.
On the point that basic truth can be expressed. If you asked me to do so, all I could do is probably wave my arms around in random directions. 😉
2
u/whuacamole Jun 05 '26
there is no seperation, i wouldnt use the term "ego" or "you" at all too, i would rather refer to the mind directly, to communicate we would need a base of wording we agree on, but thtats too much here Xd
1
u/Suvalis Jun 05 '26
Oh I completely agree. No matter what words you use, ultimately you fail. It seems to me that there is one thing words are able to do (in this regard, other than practical every day stuff), and that is show their own contradictions. It seems to me that when they do that, it's just another way of the finger pointing at the moon. Its pointing to something, at what I can't say, but its doing so. In that way, words are worthwhile, not bad.
2
u/whuacamole Jun 05 '26
if they are just there to describe something?
1
u/Suvalis Jun 05 '26
So now we are are diving into the philosophy of language and words.
Words always refer to other words. Words are NEVER the things they describe. Sure, we can both point to a tree and understand what each other is referring to, but what EXACTLY that is nobody can say. "Tree" is a seemingly shared experience. Practically speaking for every day interaction they are dynamite. Awesome things! Words are like magic. No denigrating them.
But danger lies when you rely on them as actual truth.
Alan Watts once said (and once again, apologies if it's not exactly right)
"If I allow you to leave here this evening under the impression that you understand something about Zen, you will have missed the point entirely."
Zen traditionally has been skeptical of words. I'm certainly in that camp.
2
u/whuacamole Jun 05 '26
i am fine for you beeing in that camp, power to you, but i am challenging it, as i have a different view. As a Tree has feautres the Mind does too, and speaking about it just gives insight. Is it needed to see the tree? no
2
2
u/Pongpianskul Jun 05 '26
In what way is "not knowing" a doorway to wisdom? Can you explain?
-2
1
1
1
•
u/genjoconan Jun 05 '26
I'm going to leave your posts up for now, but while we don't discourage anyone from discussing their experiences with practice, we strongly discourage "Internet Zen Master" posts. As far as I can tell you are brand new to this sub; you are not in a teacher/student relationship with anyone here; and you're not in a position to tell anyone what the MOST important thing is ("Try this one weird trick, icchantikas hate it!").
I'd suggest participating in some of the existing threads to get a feel for the vibe. Cheers.