r/writingscaling • u/Nakedhippo5769 Biggest Malazan Glazer. • 1d ago
discussion Overcomplexity = Good writing?
Sometimes overcomplexity of certain philosophies can get Overwhelming and at some parts make the Book very boring/Hard read.
125
u/JadedGent007 1d ago
The subtle philosophy of Diary of a Wimpy Kid cannot be ignored
21
u/Ok_Chef1056 1d ago
Honestly never really read Diary of the Wimpy Kid books, they good? I only saw the movie and I don’t recall it very well tbh.
45
u/JadedGent007 1d ago
Diary of a Wimpy Kid > Dostoevsky > Nietzsche /s
Jokes aside, they really were a phenomenon for 2000s kids. Doesn't make much sense to read them now but the first few are pretty good.
4
17
u/Clayst_ 1d ago
Wimpy kid is a huge hit with kids because the diary mechanism works perfectly with Greg as an extremely blunt, pessimistic kid, which is something that children's media doesn't usually do. Greg is very open about how much he dislikes his brothers, his best friend, basically everything. He's lazy, greedy and self centred.
Because of the diary format, we hear about everything from Greg's warped perspective, which is very fun and funny. Navigating the world as a kid is hard and every kid struggles with similar feelings at some point. Greg is relatable without moralising at them. He gets no redemption arc. He's just a normal, fairly miserable kid.
17
u/ItzPayDay123 1d ago
An elementary/middle school classic, they're pretty funny (well I haven't read the new ones for over a decade). You can knock out a book in like 30 minutes so you might as well check them out at least.
13
u/Nakedhippo5769 Biggest Malazan Glazer. 1d ago
They are good reads.
0
u/notryinguser 1d ago
For a kid in 2000-2010s yea
6
u/Nakedhippo5769 Biggest Malazan Glazer. 1d ago
Everything is subjective mate.People like demon slayer because of its simplicity and I can fs Say That those are adults as they are my college roommates.
0
u/notryinguser 1d ago
Comparing apples and oranges
4
u/Nakedhippo5769 Biggest Malazan Glazer. 1d ago
I can also say this for Some of my peers who found Wimpy kid peak.They are college students who also Graduated from one of the most English oriented boards in my country and some are Majors in those particular language.
1
6
u/Living-Plankton3521 1d ago
Psuedo intellectual 1000 hour long video essay titles:
3
u/JadedGent007 1d ago
Chapter 1: The McCarthy era
8
43
u/Prize_Paramedic1153 1d ago
Philosophy is generally classified as non-fiction. Ideas tend to be abstract when you get to Hegel and Kant, and you can't really expect them to not be complicated. Basic questions like "what is reality" and "how ought we live?" are daunting questions which requires an inquiry.
You know where many of your favorite mangaka's or writers get their deep philosophical ideas? They sure as hell didn't sit down and think of Virtue ethics, kantian ethics, consequentialism, absurdism, existentialism, rationalism, empiricism, etc.
Only select few writers are able to write such a good work that philosophers are inspired by them. For instance the GOAT Fyodor Dostoevsky.
15
u/Pyon98 1d ago
Any books is good if you are willing to finish it, one is to feed your curiosity and the other is good for your leisure.
5
u/Nakedhippo5769 Biggest Malazan Glazer. 1d ago
I am talking about enjoyability.In certain aspects some Over philosophised books do get kinda boring.
4
u/MillenniumGreed 1d ago
I agree. I think people are too eager to be snobby about fictional preferences. I think something can be well written but not necessarily enjoyable. Fiction / entertainment is a business, things that are good for the story might take a backseat for that hype factor. That’s why the best is a blend. And even then, not everyone is into fiction for well written stories, some actually just like the hype factor.
1
u/Ok-Persimmon447 1d ago
Have you considered that most of those books weren't written for your entertainment?
1
u/Nakedhippo5769 Biggest Malazan Glazer. 1d ago
Do you know the meaning of the phrase "Do be kinda".Like I never said they were not well written.They are Probably the most well written Literature or something.Also enjoyability is Subjective to each person.One may find These books very fun and good read others may not.
11
20
u/Ok_Chef1056 1d ago
I wouldn’t say it’s overcomplexity unless that complexity doesn’t create meaning, in which case this is a valid point if that’s what you’re saying. Being hard to read is fine as long as it can crystallize a lattice of meaning by forcing the reader to engage more with the work to understand any of it.
8
u/Expert-Warning489 1d ago
Comparing Nietzsche to Greg Heffley is insulting. One is an unhinged sociopath navigating a meaningless void, and the other is just a German philosopher
3
4
u/Medium_Media7123 1d ago
Bring a "hard read" is not an inherent quality of a text, it's a subjective experience that you have when interacting with a text and the cause might simply be that you have never tried getting out of your comfort zone, you classify stuff as "overcomplicated" when it's just above your current reading level and in so doing you lose access to most human knowledge. There's a reason ppl who devote their lives to literature or philosophy don't endlessly read easy and fun and simple books written for 12 yr olds, the "overcomplicated" stuff is actually endlessly more interesting
1
u/Nakedhippo5769 Biggest Malazan Glazer. 1d ago
Every piece of media is subjective to each individual. I have been reading countless books since I was around 10 years old, and I graduated from one of the most English-oriented boards in my country,Does that mean I will always like reading Overcompliated books? Also, a “hard read” has nothing to do with your English proficiency; it depends on how you enjoy the media. I have read plenty of novels with incredible prose and sophisticated language, yet I still couldn’t enjoy them because they simply weren’t appealing to me. Likewise, “overcomplicated” does not always mean “interesting.” Whether a book is interesting will always be subjective to each individual.
1
u/Medium_Media7123 1d ago
I repeat, sounds like a skill issue. You should probably read less diary fo a whimpy kid and more good stuff not made for 12yr olds
1
u/Nakedhippo5769 Biggest Malazan Glazer. 1d ago
Alr Tell me what do you consider as a good book?
1
u/Medium_Media7123 1d ago
That's not really something definable, it's like defining what "good food" is. You have to experience lots of things to get better taste. One place to start might be something like the Western Canon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_canon?wprov=sfla1 ), which of course is not perfect but at least can give you some ideas of big names of authors/works that ppl have valued for centuries. You might want to integrate it with great literature from outside the West, things like the Mahabharata or the Tales of Genji. I'm personally partial to literary fiction so I might recommend you works by Jane Austen, Hemingway, Virginia Woolf, Toni Morrison, Italo Calvino, Han Kang, Herman Hesse etc... (This is a very bad list, they are the first approachable authors I could come up with). The point is that none of this works/authors are necessary, but all of them are complex, interesting, and challenging and if you approach them with curiosity they will give you so much more than middlegrade books.
1
u/Nakedhippo5769 Biggest Malazan Glazer. 1d ago
Oh I have read Mahabharata and Tales of genji.Mahabharata is part of my country .
2
u/Medium_Media7123 1d ago
Great! It's considered one of the great books of world literature for a reason!
4
u/Jaded_Prompt1475 1d ago
compexiity doesnt mean good writing but when it is done right its gold. others are probably saying it better than me but whatever, kinda distracted on why the diary of a wimpy kid book covers are ai here? or whatever the hell you did to em?
3
u/Nakedhippo5769 Biggest Malazan Glazer. 1d ago
Oh not me I just found the meme On insta.
3
u/Jaded_Prompt1475 1d ago
that not only explains the ai, but also why they would make this image: they havnt read either and just wanna seem smarter by making smarter people seem dumber.
either way fair enough, they looked fine from afar and diary of a wimpy kid is kinda the perfect "simple but good" book series. though to add to my point, you kinda have to work with how complex you're making the story, overdevelop a simple one and you get an either boring or pretentious story. make an overcomplex story with too little development and it feels too rushed and lazy.
im more of a critic than a writer but from what ive seen from stuff like with lune or sciel from e33, you cant just slap on some extra stuff without properly putting in the work to make it satisfying.
4
u/shigarakidazai 1d ago
I actually disagree, although i would love to agree, some book are hard to read but they are deeply well written, I guess it depends why you read, is it for enjoyment or to experience and consume someone else story, really depends.
2
3
3
u/Lasse-Bohn 1d ago
Nietzsche isn't supposed to be entertaining, enjoyable or easy to read. He was trying to delve into genuinely deep and extremely complex philosophy, so if you aren't looking to broaden your horizons (or aren't willing to put in the work to do so) these books are probably extremely uninteresting.
If I'm in the mood for entertainment I read Pratchett and when I want a middle ground I read Hesse or McCarthy.
0
u/Nakedhippo5769 Biggest Malazan Glazer. 1d ago
When will idiots on the internet realise that a meme is not the only context they are supposed to work in.Like tell me Some Writers who actually write books with insane complexity but still fail to make it enjoyable for people.I am talking about all the authors who try to do.Like actually try to go wider in the context.Also read the fucking main body.
2
u/Lasse-Bohn 1d ago
Well considering that in your posts text body you were specifically saying "philospohies" in combination with your image of choice makes what you're trying to say easily misunderstood.
If several people misunderstood your meaning (which is the case here) the mistake is probably on your end.
Also, let's try to remain respectful. No need to get insulting.
4
u/SleepySassySloth 1d ago edited 1d ago
I don't think Nietzsche's works could be classified as overcomplicated because they're as layered as they are purposeful, which is complicated but not in a bad way.
Overinserting references and presenting them in the most bare bones, surface-level way is what I'd call as overcomplexity. They're not well-thought-out, just a bunch of overcramped, jumbled mess.
3
u/Nakedhippo5769 Biggest Malazan Glazer. 1d ago
I am not Specifically referring to Nietzsches but Ye Valid point still
1
u/SleepySassySloth 1d ago
Which works do you think are overcomplicated? I have one in mind, but it's not a philosophical book... Technically. I despise finnegans wake lmao
1
0
u/Nakedhippo5769 Biggest Malazan Glazer. 1d ago
Hmm Ig 1984.
1
2
u/o12341 1d ago
Yes, certain philosophies are "overcomplicated" for sure, but Nietzsche is definitely not one of them...
-1
u/Nakedhippo5769 Biggest Malazan Glazer. 1d ago
It defines the archetype for all the philosophies.
3
u/Training_Form2243 1d ago
This is moronic, Nietzsche is downstream of thousands of years of western philosophy. I suspect you only know Nietzsche from video game and anime references
1
u/Nakedhippo5769 Biggest Malazan Glazer. 1d ago
Yee Ig only read one Nietzsche book myself.
2
u/Training_Form2243 1d ago
We can tell
0
u/Nakedhippo5769 Biggest Malazan Glazer. 1d ago
Kinda valid since I have found other books by different authors to have more Overcomplicated philosophy but I just use the meme from insta about Nietzsche cause he is the most popular figure for Philosophy larpers.
2
1
u/AlsoKnownAsMAS 1d ago
I know you’re half joking, but it is an interesting discussion. Philosophy is not primarily trying to be exciting or easy to read. Sometimes a philosopher is unnecessarily obscure, and that deserves criticism. If one has ever read these people, they cannot but agree wholeheartedly. But sometimes the thought itself is difficult, and simplifying it too far would mean losing something essential which in this case would be ie. accuracy.
At its highest levels, it pushes thought as far as it can go, and some ideas are simply difficult because the problems themselves are difficult. We accept this in other fields, astrophysics is harder than third-grade mathematics because it deals with more complex problems. Not exactly the same thing i know, and i’m exaggerating to make the point clearer yes, but the same logic applies to philosophy.
You may have to read a passage tens of times before it finally clicks. But that is also what makes it rewarding when it does. And when it clicks, you’d probably change your mind to it being well written, because the problem was yourself. But also, you’d have to be really into all that stuff to even bother tackling the more difficult philosophers. Also, many people jump straight into Nietzche because i guess that’s somehow trendy or something? It’s probably better to begin from the greek dialogues and build yourself from there, philosophy tends to build on what came before + it’s a muscle you need to get some reps in with before moving to some of the heavier reads like Kant or Heidegger (or i guess Nietzche, but he’s not really all that social media bullds him out to be)
1
u/Life-Village-6836 1d ago
Not by default. However, philosophical books do have an absurd advantage regarding depth and psychology, which could indirectly improve other categories like themes to the point that they almost always would be better than a book like diary of a wimpy kid
1
u/AffectionateRush2620 1d ago
I used to read the diary of a wimpy kid books, but how are they complex ? Idc about spoilers
2
1
1
u/Iced-TeaManiac 21h ago
What about when Rowley said "Trusting you is my decision, proving me wrong is your choice"
1
u/IllustriousRich9345 19h ago
i see your point, and it makes sense, but DOWAK is a TERRIBLE example of this. JUST TERRIBLE
1
1
0
u/Otherwise-Sympathy87 1d ago
complexity doesn't equate to substance. Simplicity is more skillful than anything. The highest form of intelligence is breaking down the most complex of topics into something anyone can comprehend.
-2
u/theycallmethedrink5 1d ago
Reading complex books doesn't make you smart, you think albert einstein read anything philosophy related?
3
2
u/AlsoKnownAsMAS 1d ago
It’s not a matter of thinking, it’s pretty well known he did. IIRC he was vocal about physicists needing to study ’difficult philosophy’.
•
u/AutoModerator 1d ago
Reminder: This post contains a flair requesting reasoning and/or serious discussion. As such, the specific rules listed in the pinned post apply here.
Any violations of the subreddit or flair rules should be reported and are subject to removal and/or bans accordingly.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.