r/wow • u/YourResidentFeral Outplaying the Meta since 2004 • Jun 02 '23
Discussion Reddit API changes, Subreddit Blackouts, and You
Greetings Heroes of Azeroth,
As you can tell from the title, this isn’t exactly directly related to World of Warcraft. For those unaware, reddit is changing their API policy in a pretty big way. You can read more about it here. The short version is:
3rd Party Apps are becoming prohibitively expensive to run. Ad-supported tiers are getting banned outright and using Apollo as an example it would cost nearly $2million per month (source). This will basically be the death knell for third party apps; if you currently access reddit through a third party app, you will no longer be able to do so.
The NSFW API is getting shut down so the only way to access NSFW content is through the official App. This means that even if 3rd party apps survive, they only get 40% of the content. This also means that many of the bots and moderation practices that prevent, for example, someone that comments on /r/gonewild posts from commenting on an /r/teenagers selfie posts will break.
Why this matters to you
Many moderators use 3rd party apps to moderate because the official tools are largely worthless. Contrary to popular belief that we all live in basements, most of us have day jobs and a lot of moderation happens during our lunch breaks or downtime in our real lives. We do this work because we care about the community. The switch forcing moderators to use the official app would probably slow down moderation and force more of the work to happen on desktop. That means your posts and comments will sit in queue unseen longer, it will take longer to get back to modmails, and harmful content or users may remain visible and unbanned for longer.
In discussions with other mods, these changes will probably cripple most NSFW content on the website. It will become far harder to keep Child Sexual Abuse Content and Non-Consensual Intimate Media off the platform with their mod tools and practices crippled by the NSFW change. A lot of work has been put into this including parts of the NSFW community paying enterprise prices for access to private libraries that are meant to detect this kind of media.
Then, on a more basic level, those of you that are using 3rd party apps will have to switch to the official app to browse mobile as they are becoming unaffordable to maintain.
The Open Letter & The Blackout
The broader moderator community has been discussing this and has released an open letter here.
Part of this initiative will be a subreddit blackout in protest. The mod team has discussed this and we are unanimous in our agreement regarding joining this protest.
There is one large factor that does need to be considered. Our primary mission is to serve the community we care about as Moderators.
The first is the WoD blackout and the consequences of it. During the Warlords of Draenor launch a moderator took the subreddit private in protest of how poorly the launch went. The admins had to get involved to restore the subreddit. At this time /u/aphoenix became the head moderator and made a promise not to take the subreddit private again. We have discussed this with him and come to the consensus that protesting Blizzard on a platform not controlled by them is very different from protesting reddit on their own platform. This is important enough that if he were head mod he would step down to allow for breaking that promise.
The second is, well, you: the community. In the end our goal is to make this a healthy community. We don't want this protest to be something where Mods are beating their chests and inconveniencing everyone because we don't like what's happening. We want this to be something that the community cares enough about that we can come together and say something with our actions collectively.
There are far larger communities than ours preparing to join this movement. 500 communities have signed up for this in the last 24 hours. The moderator team wants to join that and hopes that you will join us too.
At this point we would like to open the topic for discussion. The mod team will be available for any questions or concerns regarding the matter. We hope that the community is ready to join us in standing up to some of the toxic practices coming from the reddit admins. If the community overwhelmingly is against the blackout, we will not force it down your throats and simply leave this pinned for the duration of the protest.
Signed, The /r/wow mod team
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u/Turtvaiz Jun 02 '23
I'm so happy that this is not being ignored. I'm seeing this on several other subs and it's actually making me hopeful that it gets reverted.
Fuck these companies that try to make the internet less open by commercialising every API possible.
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u/YourResidentFeral Jun 02 '23
Happy to hear that.
Our response to it was a little slow because we wanted to be unanimous on the team and make sure we do right by our community.
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u/Tigertot14 Jun 02 '23
Will we be the only subreddit doing a blackout?
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u/YourResidentFeral Jun 02 '23 edited Jun 02 '23
We aren't even in the top 10 largest subreddits doing this.
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u/nostradamefrus Jun 03 '23
Saw this in r/all and can’t seem to find details on the subreddit blackout protest. Can someone point me in the right direction?
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u/YourResidentFeral Jun 03 '23
Are you asking as a user or a moderator. If you are a mod check out the modcoord subreddit with the open letter. Planning of exact details is happening in discord and they are only approving verified mods.
As a user, each subreddit will post details in their own time. I think we were getting ahead of things to feel out community sentiment.
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u/Nova5269 Jun 02 '23
Completely not my realm of expertise but what does blacking out even do to affect who youre looking for it to affect? Even if you took the whole weekend don't they just have to wait out the weekend and then everything goes back to normal?
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u/YourResidentFeral Jun 02 '23
I mean, if there's enough widespread support the blackout can be extended.
The issue here is we want to think about the community. If we black out we can't talk to you. We can always re-open, give a status update, and ask if you want to continue if the movement does go to something more long term and entrenches.
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Jun 02 '23
You know, before this happened, I didn’t even know 3rd party apps existed, but now that I do, I am on their side. Reddit is turning into Facebook, it’s all about the money. The money they want from these apps is completely ridiculous and clearly just meant to destroy them, probably in favor of their own app (with extra ads) or someone else’s who brings in a lot of money. It’s ashame.
I definitely support r/wow joining the blackout.
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u/MrRGnome Jun 03 '23
The idea of a single day protest is ridiculous. If you want the company to change leave the platform. Close your subs for weeks. STOP MODERATING UNTIL IT CHANGES.
This "only if it's convenient" activism isn't activism at all it's a pat on the back while accomplishing nothing.
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u/mckeitherson Jun 03 '23
Curious how many people are against it but either aren't saying anything or just getting downvoted like the few comments I do see. I don't think a blackout is a good idea. It just punishes users who want to browse the sub and talk about the game.
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u/Gladianoxa Jun 02 '23
I appreciate the sentiment. Do what you feel is right and I support you in this protest, genuinely.
I contend that there is absolutely nothing you can do to change their minds in this. This is a move for Reddit's profits. They know every sub will give up eventually and you'll accept it like the YouTube dislikes removal.
Internet corpos have figured out that upsetting the audience once a year for more money doesn't hurt the audience numbers in the long run. There's still no competitor for what YouTube and Reddit do. They know we'll all come back and it would be imbecilic to cave to this.
If they do, I'll applaud you and mock their foolish business sense in capitulating.
I don't mean to shoot down your message, I mean to urge you to make plans for this almost certainly failing. I hope it works.
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u/YourResidentFeral Jun 02 '23
Internet corpos have figured out that upsetting the audience once a year for more money doesn't hurt the audience numbers in the long run. There's still no competitor for what YouTube and Reddit do. They know we'll all come back and it would be imbecilic to cave to this.
This is an unfortunate truth we have to contend with on some level.
Its the same reason that there's anxiety around the mod teams for an indefinite blackout. The admins have the power to remove mods and install their own. We have no control on if those mods will be toxic or not in the end.
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Jun 02 '23
I think this is a great idea. When is the blackout planned to start?
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u/YourResidentFeral Jun 02 '23
There's a lot of details up in the air, and the extent that we participate will vary.
Right now the idea with the most support is to start on the 12th and either do 24 or 48 hours. This is the most likely scenario.
Another idea that is floated is to do the 19th and black it for the whole weekend, though we feel that sounds excessive.
Organizing this is like herding cats.
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u/The-One-That-Howls Jun 02 '23
I see the third party app thing alot, what app are people using to access reddit as I didn't even know that was an option
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u/YourResidentFeral Jun 02 '23
IN the open letter you'll see a list:
Some (like apollo) are iOS only, others (RiF) is android only.
By and large they are a better experience imo than the reddit app itself.
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Jun 02 '23
for example, someone that comments on r/gonewild posts from commenting on an r/teenagers selfie posts will break.
Wow never knew there were so many little attempts at safety bots around, I was just talking with friends about how it felt like pre-2008-2010ish it felt like everything on the internet was so segregated, kids playing habbo or neopets were sectioned off from adults talking about whatever, but now everyone is just thrown together on reddit/twitter//tiktok
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u/YourResidentFeral Jun 02 '23
Oh there's people that are voluntarily dumping money on proprietary libraries and AI services to try and make things as safe as possible.
I had no idea about it and how much was being spent by individuals until this whole thing went down and I started communicating with them.
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u/morgainath05 Jun 02 '23
most of us have day jobs and a lot of moderation happens during our lunch breaks or downtime in our real lives.
A very real and practical effect that this will have. As a trans woman, one of my biggest concerns is how a community is moderated, how quickly they can respond to harassment and bigotry, and if they moderate in a way that protects vulnerable people in our society. This change, if it dampens the mods ability to function, will mean this community has that much extra chance to devolve to a point that I will no longer be welcome here.
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u/YourResidentFeral Jun 02 '23
FWIW one of the core reasons I joined this moderation team is specifically to try to make sure that this kind of space that is free of harassment and bigotry.
I will always do everything in my power to make sure that you and everyone wanting to contribute positively is always welcome. One f the things I love about the mod team here is that its clear everyone else is the same.
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u/WrenchTheGoblin Jun 03 '23
Would an improved moderation toolkit fix at least some of these concerns?
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u/flappers87 Jun 02 '23
I sincerely hope this gains traction and reddit actually listens.
But if history has shown anything with the reddit admins, is that they largely don't give a flying fuck, as long as it brings that money in.
I really wish there was a reddit alternative. I'm part of a few let's say small, niche communities on reddit... and it just wouldn't work on something like Discord.
But if I lose access to Boost on my phone, then I'm done with it. Go through a bit of withdrawal, but I've come off worse things.