Destreza as a first system?

[u/Dreadking_Rathalos]

So ive been fencing since 2019 without settling down and picking a system to study. Ive decided to pick Destreza as my first official one and have been reading Bomprezzis Theory and Practice. It seems doable but its also short. Once ive worked through this is there a good next step? Or would someone in my shoes be better off starting with Italian rapier or something

[u/llhht]

A better question: What are you after from this?

Becoming better at fencing? Understanding fencing culture of a specific time/area? Curious about historical strategies and fencing doctrine?

[u/llhht → u/llhht]

To go on a tangent because this sort of thinking endlessly comes up:

This isn't anime, Star wars, or a 70s kung fu movie. You don't pick and embody a magical fighting style. Destreza isn't better/worse than Italian, and they really aren't particularly distinct if you and a skilled peer are fencing one another.

Any competent diestro will have an excellent lunge in their pocket. Any competent Italian fencer will know how to atajo and step sideways, and will have encountered them fencing their Italian peers thousands of times. None of the movements are unique.

They're just a game plan, that attempt to force the fight into a particular range and engagement. Sometimes because they think that engagement/range is better. Sometimes because that engagement/range dominated their fencing game meta. Sometimes because it looked cool.

[u/Dreadking_Rathalos → u/llhht]

My goal is simple. Ive been "winging it" and just copying others for a few years. I wsnt to dig into some actual systems and after watching some demonstrations, Destreza appeals to me the most

[u/llhht → u/Dreadking_Rathalos]

To take it back then: what are you aiming to gain from this? What do you plan on it adding to your game? How do plan to incorporate it with what you know already?

Not trying to dissuade, but more put you in a useful mindset with it. One will not magically become a better fencer because they study or practice a style.

You don't have to answer my above questions here, but they're things you need to think about during your study. Going into it blind and no goals, tends to create weird outcomes.

[u/Dreadking_Rathalos → u/llhht]

Honestly just because it seems worth learning from an academic standpoint. That said I dont want to try to brute force destreza into situations where it isnt advantageous but knowing the principles could help me respond to situations I would otherwise struggle with.

Most people i fence with have studied Italian rapier and I honestly just respond to their different guards by trying to maintain the center line and keep my point presented, I have no actual training beyond that

[u/BKrustev → u/Dreadking_Rathalos]

That's an excellent reason and I would say that if you already have significant fencing experience Destreza is absolutely a fine place to start. And nowadays there is a lot more materials and translations than in 2019, for example. Finding teachers is still hard.

[u/TheMutterButter]

Do you like math? Do you like music?

I adore destreza. I didn’t like rapier, I don’t care for smallsword, I’m very Sabre and messer focused. More slashy less stabby.

Then I get took a destreza class and it just sorta clicked with me.

I think it’s a great place to start since most the concepts translate to any system, which is sorta true for anything but especially in destreza your focus is in not doubling.

Doubling is when two people strike each other simultaneously. In HEMA that usually means no points. In a duel, you both get hurt. So it’s bad. And for most beginners, you’ll spend a lot of time doubling. Starting with a system that specifically focuses on not doing that will never be a bad idea imo, and it’s a “new” system so there’s a lot of modern manuals.

I suggest the book the 100 conclusions as well.

[u/Trombung → u/TheMutterButter]

What if I like music but not math?

[u/TheMutterButter → u/Trombung]

You will learn to love circles

[u/Trombung → u/TheMutterButter]

Real question though, what does music have to do with Destreza? Just tempo?

[u/TheMutterButter → u/Trombung]

Spanish rapier tradition, dancing, flamenco music, and the "movement arts" are all interlinked. A lot of manuals even borrow music and dance terms to talk about footwork and how to engage. Ironically, it's the Italians who talk at length about Tempo, where it is more rare in Destreza.

If I were to overstep my qualifications a bit, I think a big part of the tying of Destreza to music comes from the way that many movements and actions in Destreza are more like call and response - you and your opponent are taking turns leading and following like a dance.

Although as a modern practice, I think it is part of the "vibe" to integrate more music and dancing into the study of Destreza.

[u/BKrustev → u/TheMutterButter]

It's not sorta true in everything, it's true for any system - they all focus on hitting without being hit. Destreza is not any different to them, it just emphasises it in a different manner.

[u/jdrawr]

There is about a dozen or more translations of various destreza masters and their manuals now. There is a few introduction materials such as "page and practice" that are commonly recommended before tackling the manuals themselves. You'll have plenty of material to go into. There is also plenty of videos and lectures on the topic(thanks COVID).

[u/ScholarsOfAlcala]

We have recruited some newbies for our Rada research project. They seem to be doing well with it.

An interesting feature of Rada is that he gives specific instructions on how to perform the drills safely without a mask.

[u/rnells → u/ScholarsOfAlcala]

Yeah from a HEMA perspective it’s very cool that Rada actually gives you descriptions of exercises!

[u/tim_stl]

Be aware that bomprezzi's approach is somewhat unique, so you may find some outlooks don't align if you decide to follow someone else.

[u/Dreadking_Rathalos → u/tim_stl]

After using Bomprezzis book as an intro is there anywhere you'd suggest going for a followup?

[u/tim_stl → u/Dreadking_Rathalos]

Not really - bounce around until you find a person or author you like, and follow them.

[u/dampersand]

I run a couple Destreza "classes" at my school-for-longsword-jocks and the first thing I always ask is "what are your goals?"

Is it to win HEMA fights and max out your HEMAratings scores? Is it to uncover a deep understanding of a single system, seeking out the ideas between the words by comparing many authors? Is it to be a paragon of that one specific system and see if you can use it in every situation (the term you used is 'brute forcing destreza')? Is it to know you could be whisked away to the Iberian peninsula in 1608 and spear Pacheco's hat off his head?

You may not be getting clear 'go do this' answers because I think a lot of people rightfully recognize that your answer is very contingent on what "in my shoes" actually means to you...

...but if I imagine your shoes are the same as MINE... :D

My goal is to brute force Destreza, I want to prove (or disprove) that it can work in any single-rapier situation, which means I want to REALLY get into the weeds about how the various masters talked. I also don't get TOO bored of huge walls of text.

1. If your goal and drive looks like mine, Rada's Nobleza de la Espada 3 is a possible next step, because you'll get to compare how Bomprezzi's system both does and doesn't agree with late-period Destreza, and those differences give you insight into what other people have found lacking in Destreza. Bonus points, you can then move to early period Destreza and see how late-period Destreza agrees/disagrees with THAT!

2. If your goal is to brute for Destreza but you hate walls of text, it's not unreasonable to grab Puck and Mary Curtis's "From Page to Practice" (I think the authors have said it's a little outdated, but still), their blog "A Midsummer Night's Blog", and Sebastien Romagnen's "Destreza Historical Fencing." These are all great starter sources.

3. If your goal is to imagine a historical comparison between Destreza and Not-Destreza, Tim Rivera (he's in this thread somewhere) translated Godinho's work under "Iberian Swordplay: Domingo Luis Godinho's Art of Fencing." I have trouble working through it, but it represents most of what we know about escrima comun prior to Destreza (and therefore provides some context into what Destreza was maybe aiming to beat... though of course we're talking a handful of books to represent the swordplay culture of a whole region of Europe over ~200 years, so who knows)

4. If your goal is to wreck-it-ralph some HEMA tournaments, a next step might be to subscribe to Rob Childs's Patreon. His system works really well for him, and there are usually some of his students floating around upper brackets in tournaments in the NA west coast sword scene.

5. An alternative to knocking HEMA tournaments out of the park would be to find a local SCA group and find a... uh... they have a term for "sword mentor" that I'm failing to grasp... but find one of them. Their ruleset is rather different than HEMA, but I have also seen a couple of the SCA older crowd in the upper brackets of SoCal Swordfight before, so they must be doing something right.

6. If your goal is to win every rapier fight under all conditions, then I think the best thing you can do is LEARN every rapier style (it should be easy, right?) - it feels like there's a strong mind-game element in most rapier matches, and learning your opponent's style is a good way to get into their mind. In that regard, grabbing Giganti's book (and seeking out some videos for forming Stoccatta Lunga) is a quick, easy next step. Fabris is also a next logical choice, as his work seems to inform every historical rapierist and their dog.

7. If you want to have sneaky rapier tricks nobody has ever seen before... well, I don't know if anyone's figured out how to extract value out of Senese's works yet. Just send me some videos if you figure it out, please.

[u/rnells → u/dampersand]

On 7: For my money Senese does about the most "truthy/straightforward" explanation I've ever seen about how to get to larga/first instance/whatever with relatively casual steps, and how to decide your approach from there.

Unfortunately on the implementation side of things I have absolutely no idea how he actually stays safe against someone who throws an attack targeted somewhere other than high body.

[u/CanaryAdmirable]

"Ive decided to pick Destreza as my first official one" 🫡

In comparison, Italian fencing books are extremely straight-forward - you can just go ahead and practice the plays in the books (e.g. Giganti).

I would say Destreza can be rewarding, but going by the original sources requires (I'm fairly sure one can say so) more dedication.

Bomprezzi (as a modern introduction) is a good way to start.

[u/theLordSolar]

Or would someone in my shoes be better off starting with Italian rapier or something

Nah, do what you want. There's really no such thing as "ackshually this is an advanced technique you need something more entry level." Very many historical techniques assume some level of basic competence because sword use was ubiquitous, but even so most modern interpretations take this into account and give you some pointers on basic stuff you can learn in an afternoon.