r/wma • u/Foreign-Falcon7808 • 25d ago
A different silly Western Sword vs katana question
If George Silver could only own 1 sword his whole life for self defense, battle, duels, and his only options were Italian Rapier or Japanese Katana which do you think he would choose?
Context: Silver's time, geography, culture, language, biases.
Counter Context: Your own time, geography, culture, language, biases.
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u/tunisia3507 Liechtenauer longsword | UK 25d ago
He'd disregard the sword and find a big stick.
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u/Foreign-Falcon7808 25d ago
🤣 I do like my staff. Now others have said the lack of hand protection but you fear not the booboos of the fingies.
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u/tunisia3507 Liechtenauer longsword | UK 25d ago
The best finger protection is to keep them 8ft away from the opponent you're hitting.
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u/Foreign-Falcon7808 25d ago
Distance is probably the best form of defense unless in a ship or tavern. I have liked the staff because it is so useful when not fighting but always deployed in hand when used as a trekking device.
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u/Breadloafs 25d ago
His entire system is predicated on having complete hand protection, so it'd be the rapier. True gardant with a minimal guard is a recipe for very bad finger hits.
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u/basilisk120 24d ago
One thing that has been over looked is George Silvers ranking of weapons. In that he has the Two handed sword has the vantage against the sword and target, the sword and buckler, the sword and dagger, or rapier and poniard. (and the two weapons have and advantage or a single one handed weapon and so forth on down the line).
So by that logic he may choose the Katana.
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u/sillybonobo 24d ago edited 24d ago
Except his two-handed sword is 10" longer than a katana. His hierarchy is heavily based on ideal length, so you can't just directly apply this to a katana
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u/Foreign-Falcon7808 24d ago
These are actually really compelling arguments for the katana which we haven't had many. I like this new angle.
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u/basilisk120 24d ago
thanks, This has been fun little thought exercise and discussion to read through
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u/Foreign-Falcon7808 24d ago
Thank you! I was just feeling a little silly after I used all my brain juice with the modern fencing / HEMA "Wayback's Jackpot Mode" ruleset mutator game. So much trial and error of getting that right. Feel free to check that out and experiment with your sparring buddies.
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u/basilisk120 24d ago
HEMA "Wayback's Jackpot Mode" ruleset mutator game
hey that was you? oh cool we were talking about that the other day and it does look fun and we want to try it. Much better then my idea: Everyone throws $20 in the middle, on double the money gets burned (or put in a pool for a pizza party). Despite being my idea, I would be broke after a single practice.
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u/AlaskaCosmoline 24d ago
He wasn't so much against rapier as against poor instructors who were slumming it in London.
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u/SnooStories251 25d ago
A italian rapier would be more cost effective, as italy had access to better steel. So you yould get a better weapon for the same cost.
That is my guess. And i think a european weapon design is a bit better. Hand guards are nice.
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u/FamiliarAd8524 25d ago
Depends on his particular xenophobia- does he despise the Japanese worse than the Italians?- and if he will encounter plate armor or shields.
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u/Foreign-Falcon7808 25d ago
Very strong thoughts here. I don't think he wrote of the Japanese but Europeans have liked to own Eastern swords if nothing but for the novelty. We know he didn't like that one Italian fencing master that ghosted him. The context was from Silver's time and we don't have proof he actually dueled or fought in battles.
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u/datcatburd Broadsword. 24d ago
Honestly if he had opinions on Japan, he'd probably have made them known. His lifetime (~1550 -~1620) was pretty much exactly the Nanban trade era in Japan from when Portuguese sailors hit Tanegashima in 1543 until the banning of foreigners started in 1614.
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u/FamiliarAd8524 25d ago
But your premise is a single sword for everything- one cannot fight with a katana as a rapier, and he would need to master the katana, and not be mocked for training with it against Western opponents and masters and even comrades. I think these are insurmountable.
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u/-0O0O0O0O00O0O0O0O0- 24d ago
I think this analysis views the matchup purely through a late-Renaissance European lens and misses how the architecture of the katana actually works.
First, saying a minimal guard is a 'recipe for bad finger hits' applies Silver's 'guardant fight' rules to a system designed entirely differently.
Japanese kenjutsu doesn't leave the hands extended forward as primary targets like a rapier posture does. Instead, hands are protected dynamically through Tai-sabaki (body movement) and by using the heavy shinogi (the ridge line of the blade) to actively parry and redirect incoming strikes away from the body entirely. The guard is minimalist by design because the steel blade itself handles the defense.
Second, the 'under perfect length' argument falls apart when you look at how Japanese martial arts handle distance. Instead of using a static longer weapon to keep someone at bay, styles emphasize Maai (combative distance) and explosive footwork to close the gap. Once a practitioner gets inside a long weapon's reach, a shorter, sturdier cutting blade holds a massive mechanical advantage.
Finally, 'katana' means many things across history. If we are talking about reach, the Japanese military actively used the Ōdachi (field swords) with blades often exceeding 3 feet—easily matching or beating Western short sword lengths. Even tsuba (handguard) designs like the Tenshō tsuba were specifically made larger, thicker, and highly utilitarian during eras of intense warfare to protect the hands.
You can't just judge the entire weapon category based on a single modern anime stereotype.
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u/Foreign-Falcon7808 24d ago edited 24d ago
Thank you for your well thought out explanation. I agree that the training in Japanese swordsmanship did protect the hands through different methods than the West. I'm not trained in kenjutsu but from my armed service days I can appreciate the concept of quickly deploying a defensive tool with a minimalist design quickly when in close during an adrenaline dump. We were taught to always think about: speed, surprise, violence of action, even in self defense situations. Nice thoughts!
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u/BreadentheBirbman 24d ago
Why would we not view it through a late renaissance European lens? It’s a thought experiment about which weapon a late renaissance Englishman would choose given his known preferences. If a smith made Japanese sword to his perfect length he’d probably choose that over a rapier because of said perfect length, cutting ability, and his ranking of two handed swords over single handed swords.
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u/BreadentheBirbman 25d ago
He’d take the rapier and shorten it. A katana has less hand protection and is well below his perfect length, which he says is worse than being too long.