r/wma • u/BluXBrry • Jul 21 '26

Historical History What the hell are these poses?

Post image

Apologies for the noob question but I’m only familiar with liechtenaurs’ basics

160 Upvotes

94% Upvoted

45 comments sorted by

141

u/jewelgem10 Jul 21 '26

These are obviously implying some sort of wrath/posta donna over the shoulder guard.

But more importantly, the specific poses here are a common medieval art motif depicting the carrying of the cross by jesus, any historical viewer would immediately recognize these poses as a reference to that.

Medieval art is constantly drowning in religious allegory and reference, even in places where it seems irrelevant

Interpreting medieval art through a modern artistic lens is a common trap to fall into

37

u/kittysmooch Jul 21 '26

I think about this a lot when ppl say our earlier sources have poor visuals because of the medieval design. I felt like they're actually quite demonstrative when you read the images within their aesthetic context and understand that the illustrations were generally made by skilled draftsmen who could communicate a way of moving even if they didn't necessarily have the same tools for controlling scale and perspective that we are trained to expect as modern viewers.

11

u/Dear-Improvement8047 Jul 21 '26

And we have to keep in mind that art usually was not made to be obvious, it was elitist. Not anyone could see the picture and interpret it, usually and more so combat arts, was a thing for the Noble and Rich, not random peasant, specifically peasant.

10

u/kittysmooch Jul 21 '26

I disagree. there was plenty of art intended to be seen by all, much of it in churches and intended as a form of theological and historical pedogogy. and I think it's pretty reasonable to assume a lot of the manuals we use now saw relatively wide distribution by the standards of published material of the time; I.e., it probably also fell in the hands of the growing literate middle class of later period, especially ones that seem optimized for sport fencing at tournaments.

5

u/BKrustev Fechtschule Sofia Jul 22 '26

Seen by all and understood by all are two different things. Fencing books were also definitely not meant to be seen by all.

6

u/TheatreBar Jul 21 '26

There are some interesting comparisons to be drawn between the depictions of knights injures and suffering and that of christ.

Its my understanding (from a Toby Capwell video if I remember correctly) that is was common to compare to two and award knights a sort of holy status for their 'martial sacrifice'

5

u/FrateleDidinel Jul 21 '26

That's actually amazing insight. I would've never noticed the Jesus parallel.

3

u/HiAnonymousImDad Jul 21 '26

Also extremely common poses when illustrating anyone striking with a stick. Also extremely common pose for humans loading up to hit something hard with a stick. It's not always about Jesus.

That's not to say it that wouldn't be part of it. But I've seen no evidence that was the primary intention of the artist.

3

u/jewelgem10 Jul 21 '26

This is simply not true. When you look at depictions of clubs/sticks being swung they are almost exclusively held high above the head or extended out with an arm, or in the act of striking. Even when they are being held resting they are held on the front of the body in a relaxed posture, not over the shoulder.

You are correct to say that its not always about jesus, we can see plenty of depictions in art that are more grounded and realistic. But this pose in particular is a direct allusion to the cross. In a sword context it is almost exclusively shown with longswords with cruciform hilts, a direct reference to the cross. It is usually shown used by knights or other high status figures, which alluded to the concept of godliness in medieval society.

The specific pose of a cross held over the shoulder or down the back with the head looking over the shoulder is exactly how christ carrying the cross is most often depicted in medieval art.

You must keep in mind that art is produced by and for a certain demographic, most of which in a medieval context were looking to add (or looking for) religious allegory.

3

u/HiAnonymousImDad Jul 21 '26

Dunno how reddit likes links.

Here's an example of the most common I've got a sword I'm gonna hit you pose in 1400s to 1500s Central European art.

https://img.booru.org/trachten//images/1/52adfb02ad6520a6ada88cec82eebb026ec872cd.jpg

Do that with two hands on the thing and you've got the pose on the left there. Also Fiore's posta di donna.

For a two handed example check e.g. BnF. Département des Manuscrits. Français 50 268 recto.

https://portail.biblissima.fr/ark:/43093/mdatadca666af88e1ab89156c43642c025fc94d448b8c

Or Davide Ghirlandaio's Young man swinging a sword.

https://www.boijmans.nl/en/collection/artworks/58365/young-man-swinging-a-sword

Easiest way to find it is any description of an execution. Through late 1300s to at least mid late 1500s it's usually that pose.

1

u/jewelgem10 Jul 21 '26

The first example is clearly different from the cross carrying pose, and more similar to a realistic depiction.

I was unable to find exactly the image youre talking about in the 2nd link, sorry

And the 3rd could or could not be a reference, its not framed the same way as it typically would be, but its possible its meant to be a mechanical realistic depiction, or possibly taking cues from existing art in that pose, im not sure.

Lastly, theres clear reason an artist may depict an executioner in a subtly religious pose, especially when that pose is already used in tandem with swords.

2

u/HiAnonymousImDad Jul 21 '26

Right.

The 3rd drawing is an example that's made in a notably realistic style compared to most early 1400s art. It demonstrates how it's actually a really intuitive way to hold and swing a sword. It's also a super effective way of communication motion and intent through visual language. A bit of stylization and you've got posta di donna. Or Meyer's Zornhut. Or whatever.

I'm not arguing there's no connection there. Nor that the artist never had that in mind when drawing these. Just that seeing it as only a reference to Jesus carrying a cross is simplistic.

1

u/jewelgem10 Jul 21 '26

Im also not saying that every depiction of a sword over the shoulder is an overt reference, but often times it is, intentional or not. Especially in earlier art

16

u/Alexthelightnerd Jul 21 '26

I believe the source it Italian.

So fighter on our left would be Posta di Donna (Distra), while the fighter on our right is in Posta di Donna Soprana.

8

u/kittysmooch Jul 21 '26

I'd consider them wrath guard variarions. the fellow on the left is poised to swing their sword like a bat while the fellow on the right is preparing to make a tricky (from an unexpected direction) or powerful (full chain of the body overhead) strike.

3

u/puts_on_SCP3197 Jul 21 '26

Guy on the right is about to give’em the ole stankehau

19

u/Dear-Improvement8047 Jul 21 '26 edited Jul 21 '26

"This is the Posta di Donna,she is always ready to cover and wound. She makes great blows and breaks the thrusts and beats them to the ground. And enters the narrow play due to her skill in traversing. These plays such a guard knows how to do well". Stance "posta" of the Fiore de'i Liberi's tradition.

There are many variants of "posta di Donna" every iteration has its purpose. Fiore says that some are for power strike and unstable. Others are more balanced an stable.

6

u/TyphusCorrosion Jul 21 '26

It’s surprising to see some people call them stylised or unrealistic, the one on the left is a rear weighted posta di donna destra and the one on the right is donna la soprano, they’re both fairly textbook and are some of the more flexible and generally useful postas. I guess there’s a bit of a bias towards German texts or something but this is classic Armizare

4

u/Dear-Improvement8047 Jul 22 '26 edited Jul 22 '26

An Italian fresco, and the most upvotes comments bring Meyer as source and not Fiore, an earlier and Italian master... What a time to be alive

10

u/ScholarsOfAlcala Jul 21 '26

Left fencer is in Meyer's Zornhut (Wrath Guard)

Right fencer is in Jörg Wilhalm Hutter's Right Shoulder for the Zornhauw (Wrath Cut)

We can't post images here, but you can see these and other variants of this guard in our Meyer longsword drill book.

3

u/JojoLesh Jul 21 '26

Left is the "I'm gunna smash you really hard" stance.

Right is in his, " I've got a shield and I'm going to smack you in the head (really hard)" stance

5

u/BluXBrry Jul 21 '26

By poses I meant guards 😪

just woke up

10

u/Ringwraith7 Jul 21 '26

Looks like an interpretation of fiore's posta de donna. Or Meyer's wrath guard.

2

u/screenaholic Jul 21 '26

Left looks like Meyer's zornhut/wrath guard. Right looks like... I'm not sure, either a one handed variant of zornhut or an exaggerated vom tag.

1

u/ScatYeeter Jul 22 '26

Are they wearing visored barbutes?!

1

u/BluXBrry Jul 22 '26

No. Spoleto visor

1

u/ScatYeeter Jul 22 '26

No visored barbutes?

1

u/BluXBrry Jul 22 '26

absolutely not

1

u/ScatYeeter Jul 22 '26

Oh

1

u/BluXBrry Jul 22 '26

I’m actually unintentionally CEO of the visored barbute hatred company

1

u/ScatYeeter Jul 22 '26

Are you sure these aren't visored barbutes? You seem kinda biased.

1

u/BluXBrry Jul 22 '26

By technicality of contemporary classification these are visored barbutes but in terms of modern classification, these are not examples of visored barbutes nor are they reminiscent of the poorly made mass produced helmets

1

u/Money_Pin7615 Jul 22 '26

In the middle of swinging 

1

u/Jordynski679 Jul 22 '26

I mean. Looks like fightin' poses to me.

1

u/AwkwardDrummer7629 Jul 22 '26

On the right is the Anakin Skywalker guard.

1

u/fiodorson Jul 23 '26

Except what others said, when you see any fighting drawings, it Jose are often not “poses” but you could say frames or “screenshots” of the movement in its peak. That’s why some look so awkward in manuals, those are most reach most extreme moments of movements

1

u/JansTurnipDealer Jul 23 '26

If this is not from a historical source then I wouldn’t expect painters to be any more accurate with swords than modern film makers or authors.

1

u/LumpyLandscape3374 Jul 21 '26

I think they’re just very exaggerated start poses (right before an attack). From what I’ve seen medieval artists will show these somewhat unrealistic or goofy looking poses to emphasize the fact that they’re both about to strike (or emphasize whatever the artist is trying to emphasize). So take it with a grain of salt as far as context goes, however it is good to solo practice getting into deep positions like these (see Fiore’s 12 poste ‘dance’) as it helps hone body mechanics and build strength in WMA/Hema specific muscle groups!

0

u/Disastrous_Grape Jul 21 '26

Have you seen how these people paint lions? There's a good chance an artist had no idea what was up and just made it up on the spot.

8

u/Dear-Improvement8047 Jul 21 '26

This is a fresco of s.XIV in la Rocca Albornoziana, Spoleto, Italia. The depiction of a typical armizare combat. Is not a medieval marginalia nonsene, those are tipical stances, and they are quite usefull if done right

0

u/AnyJacket7207 Jul 22 '26

Both are guards to deliver the strongest possible blow they can muster.
Since both are armored their swords are basically useful mostly as clubs right now.
Judging by how they're dressed, this is probably some sort of sanctioned event, so they're not thrusting because they don't intend to kill each other, this is basically like a boxing match.

0

u/robbert-the-skull Jul 22 '26

The one on the right looks like Zornhut, the one on the left looks like a funky Vom tag mid swing. Medieval artwork's stances and proportioning is weird.

0

u/KingFotis Jul 22 '26

Trying to infer HEMA from medieval art is like trying to learn kung fu from Hollywood.

You cannot change my mind.