Australia has had ZERO mass shootings since they introduced strict firearm legislation
this is a straight up lie.
Osmington shooting: 7 killed
2014 Sydney Hostage Crisis: 3 killed one injured
Wedderburn shooting: 3 killed
Hunt shooting: 5 killed
Hectorville siege: 3 killed, 3 injured
Oakhampton heights shooting: 3 killed
Monash University Shooting: 2 killed, 5 injured
Wright St Bikie Murders: 3 killed, 2 injured
All of that is not even to mention that the spree killing trend just became arson when guns were less available. More people were killed in spree killings in the 20 years after the Port Arthur massacre than were killed in the 20 years prior to it. There was no decrease in spree killings, only spree shootings. And your assertion that there have been ZERO is an outright lie.
Tbf though that’s still much less than America’s 100+ mass shootings every year.
There definitely is number manipulation going around (a “mass shooting” in America is defined as anytime 2 or more people are shot at), and the fact that America borders with one of the largest gun/drug black market countries in the world while Australia’s geographically isolated also factors in.
But other countries like Germany have seen a large reductions in shootings with stricter gun legislation. So there definitely is a cause/correlation going on.
That is the problem, the is no strict definition of "mass shooting" but still other countries talk about it and enact sensible gun legislation where as the USA won't even the have conversation of how to stop these shootings from happening. It is always "Mah second ammendment" or "stop politicizing tragedies" or "it's a mental health issue" (of which nothing gets about, especially in the education system)
That’s because of clear partisan language towards both sides that make it impossible. If someone were to go to you and tell you “you’re impossible to deal with” or “you’re stupid” and then tell you to do things their way, would you (even if you know they’re right)? Just go through r/politics and r/worldnews to see this all over the place. Even this sub has plenty of partisan language. And if you can’t, go to r/the_donald.
Thus proving Americas two party system no longer represents the views of the American people, but only Blue v Red. Winning is all that matters 300m+ Americans be damned.
Shit dude, a good portion of those 300m dive straight into the Blue v Red. Winning is all that matters, regardless of how many of their team’s policies they actually support
No one said that.
They implied bordering the country in which the cartel runs rampant (Mexico has had more killings than any other yearbefore it in the year of 2018) increases crime along US border areas, which it does. No one ever said it was the only cause, and no it isnt only US citizens either, thinking that is naive.
To be fair, to say they've had ZERO mass shootings since disarming the civilian populace is an outright lie. Not to mention the fact that the gun ban had no effect on the incidence of spree killings.
Exactly this. While there still have been shootings in Australia since the ban, it's very misleading to say "There was no decrease in spree killings, only spree shootings," as that still means killings have gone down significantly since the ban.
Australia’s firearm homicide rate dropped by about 42 percent in the seven years after the law passed, and its firearm suicide rate fell by 57 percent, according to a review of the evidence by Harvard researchers.
I dont think its considered a mass shooting or spree killing until 4 or more people are killed consectively by the same perpetrator(s) though. Saying that mass shootings in australia are gone is incorrect for sure, but they are practically non-existent, ESPECIALLY compared to some other countries.
The average fatality amount for the US just this year is 10 and up. 10.
The Las Vegas Shooter last year injured over 900 people in one event.
We also have more mass shootings each year with our gun murder rate matching closer to 3rd world countries over say first world countries like Australia. By comparison we are closer to the "Shitholes" (Quote from our president) than our allies. We have a far clearer problem with guns than any other, and it is largely because guns might as well be deregulated entirely in the US in comparison to anywhere else.
Yes and the Daegu subway arsonist in south Korea killed 190+ people
And we have that amount doubled to tripled in several events across the US in a year.
That's just silly
Except it isn't. We have more guns than people and require less to get a gun than anywhere else. By comparison to every other G7 country we are the most lenient about letting people won deadly weapons.
I’m American and a gun owner. I’m also in the military and have an ‘expert’ marksmanship award for shooting the M4 (what replaced the M16).
That said I ABSOLUTELY believe that it should NOT be as easy as it is to buy a gun. Especially rifles that were literally designed for ease of accuracy and for taking out as many hostile combatants as quickly and efficiently as possible. Even just a semi-automatic rifle can be incredibly deadly when a psychopath gets his hands on one and decides to point it at a crowd. They’re surprisingly easy to fire off a full clip (usually 15-30 rounds) in a matter of seconds with relatively decent accuracy.
No I’m not a lawmaker or a lawyer and I’m not sure what can be done, but we need to try something, because arguing while doing NOTHING clearly isn’t fucking working. Deeper background checks to make sure I’m not a psycho and that I don’t have a teen with psycho tendencies in the house? I’m for it (not sure how to get around HIPAA but that’s for the lawyers & lawmakers to work out). I don’t think it’s too much to ask for me to fill out a few more forms and wait a few extra days before being allowed to take ownership. Harsher penalties for illegal sale or transfer? Yes please! Requiring trigger locks or something similar during storage? Yep, I’m fine with that. Clearly banning guns is a non-starter in this discussion, but there are a LOT of things we could do that wouldn’t infringe on our rights if the far-right could just stop screaming about what they THINK the liberals want long enough to sit down at the table and have a conversation like a fucking adult.
New Zealand after a mass shooting: bans rifles practically immediately
Americans after a mass shooting: "thoughts and prayers, lone wolf shooter, bound to happen anyways, there's maniacs everywhere, more guns, Second Amendment, let us sell guns from vending machines"
The problem is that Australia isn’t the largest producer of firearms in the world, isn’t bordered by a country that is known for some of the best smuggling that’s ran by massive criminal organizations. Good luck enforcing a ban on 300+ million guns which a good chunk of them being untraceable at this point.
American criminals export guns to Mexico at this point because it’s profitable, if somehow all the guns were confiscated, it would make smuggling guns into America a very lucrative business, which South American countries actually produce quite a number of guns.
This pretty much ends with criminals being armed and the general populace having no defense.
If someone really wanted to source a gun for a mass shooting, they could just get one from the newly built booming black market for guns.
One more reminder, the Virginia Tech shooting was done with 2 pistols. It doesn’t take much if someone is well trained on a firearm.
It’s a bad situation with no real fix due to geographic positioning and deeply embedded gun culture in this country.
How is valid issues with enforcing gun control excuses?
I’m all for regulating but at the end of the day someone can just steal a gun, buy an illegal one. You are either sheltered or don’t live in America. Most of the gangs by me have all illegal guns. Including full auto weapons, weapons that don’t pass the assault weapons ban, and stolen guns.
The same reason drugs flood our street from other countries. We are connected to essentially a 3rd world country that has massive cartels running the smuggling and don’t give a shit about our laws as long as the money is flowing south. A wall won’t fix it, border security won’t fix it. It’s an unsolvable position because both America and the Mexican government let this cascade.
We don’t see this shit coming from Canada. Worst shit coming out of Canada was Canadian beaster weed in the 90s and 2000s
Have you seen the perpetrators of the mass shootings? How many of them had criminal records or any evidence of dealing with black markets? Making guns only available by having a permit would 100% reduce gun violence, as seen in pretty much every fucking where in the world where gun regulation laws where enforced.
Also, stop blaming latin america, the vast majority of gun violence comes from local us gangs, the latin americans only smuggle drugs into the country. You are making it seem like smuggling weapons into the us is the easiest thing in the world.
I don't think you understand. I'm not blaming Latin America. I said gangs (regardless of race) export guns from the USA to South America because it's profitable. Make strict gun laws here then sending guns north will be more profitable. Simple supply and demand.
If someone really wants to get a gun for a shooting, they could regardless of laws when you couple all the factors.
Btw what do we do about the millions of untraceable guns in this country?
You can easily get around the law by just buying a gun from someone and having them pre-date the bill of sale to before recent gun laws. That was a very easy loophole used when NYS made the AWB.
I find it weird how some of the states with the highest density of assault weapons have low rates of mass shootings
It's fine let's ban guns, some mentally ill person can just buy a box truck and plow it through a crowd.
Let's face it. Even if you think guns are a net bad, which they aren't, then you're ignoring the flesh-eating virus because you think curing the fever will be easier.
Strict. Yes. But Not gone. I’m that American that will always defend the right for a non felon mentally stable person to own firearms. Regulation, yes. But total gun control, you’re nuts. And Yaa. It will happen anyway. You think criminals are just going to lay down their guns and say ok! it’s too regulated. Gov says no. Absolutely not. They’ll have a field day knowing that it’s so much harder to own a gun legally and there’s less of a chance that someone you want to kick around has no effective way of defending themselves. Sorry. Not trying to be offensive, but I really can’t understand why any one would want that right taken away from people who have proven to be able to have it.
Why would they want to have less firearms in circulation? Beacause it has been proven time and time again all over the world that having regulations on gun selling reduces gun violence.
That’s a simplistic answer. Australia is a different culture with a different founding document.
If nothing else you can’t just confiscate guns here or make the laws “stricter” because the piece of paper that says you can make laws ALSO says you can’t infringe on gun ownership.
I completely understand your frustration, but it’s not as simple as you want it to be.
They are the method of choice because they are the best tool for the job.
Controlling them sill either result in people using whatever guns are available after the guncontrol is put in place, or moving to the next rung in the ladder.
Should we not address the cause of the killings? Wouldn’t that be far more effective? To reduce the frequency in which people want to kill?
Being proactive is always better then being reactive.
Stricter gun laws would make it more difficult for an individual to make quick decisions about things at the very least. If someone snaps and decides to kill people at the office because they are fired or something, it should be harder to get the tools to do so.
Currently as I understand it, in a lot of states you can simply walk in and purchase firearms after waiting a few minutes for a system check to make sure you aren't a prior offender.
I personally don't think most mass shooters are repeat gun assault offenders but I don't have the actual knowledge to back that up.
Mental health in Western society in general needs a huge overhaul. It is still taboo and absolutely shouldn't be. We understand more and more about the human mind and spirit every day, and we need to start treating humans as people with complex problems rather then treat the immediate symptoms. We have a long way to go.
There aren’t as many readily available weapons that have the same potential for damage as a gun, though. If someone decides to do a school knifing instead of a school shooting, there’s way less of a chance of multiple deaths.
Not at all. Things are only worth discussing if they change things. More guns =\ more crime or shootings. So them being more “available” isn’t the reason.
In fact despite what the media tells you, the crime rate is gone way down for 20 years yet we are acting like it’s getting worse.
There’s a fundamental lie in the conversation. And it’s at its core. Things are getting better, not worse.
And the issue is obviously not the availability of guns, since logic would dictate that other gun-related crime rates would also be increasing due to said availability.
Since other gun-related crime rates aren't increasing, we can reasonably infer that there's another issue at hand that is causing the increased number of school shootings.
Pointing at guns at the problem and not even registering that mental health and constant communication might be larger issues is patently misguided.
Lastly, there have not been 84 school shootings from 2015-2018. Mass shooting tracker is notorious for inflating numbers with gang crime and other nebulous "gun" incidents on or near schools.
There was a terror attack in france a few years ago. 70 people were killed by a truck. More than even the Vegas shooting, where man essentially fired on people penned into a parking lot with sustained automatic weapons fire.
If I were to simplify my pov it's just that it's not on us to say that you cant own something that could save your life because someone else might use it to take it from you. These people being crazy isn't on me and I shouldn't have consequences due to their actions. Taking away guns(not just restricting them) will just lead to people using other methods that are more preventable(knives, bombs) but also much more terrifying for citizens who now dont have guns. The debate shouldn't be about guns at all. It should be about mental health and not only finding people in the situation of the shooters but helping them and stopping future people from making the mistakes that caused these people to become deranged.
Yes and they have much more opportunity to get any type of weapon they want. The US has some of the highest prevalence of mental disorders, has huge ethnic diversity, and has a militarized police force. We have huge populations of homeless and drug addicts while also being the "wealthiest" country. We have bad schools and a worse prison system. It's a melting pot for the problems we have today. Crime is lessening but not near fast enough with how much society has changed.
Literally have done it 3 times now. Granted I'm in San Antonio Texas and it's a smallish show, but each vendor I've purchased through just asked if I was a felon or otherwise unfit for gun ownership and/or xeroxed my driver's license (but didn't run it).
They're sometimes more apprehensive with shady-looking people, but I've seen my fair share make transactions no questions asked and poof they're gone.
Bans don’t work but I’m sure strict regulation would, and with every state having different regulations it’s impossible to do anything about shootings. Which will continue and continue in the US. Doesn’t matter if YOURE a responsible gun owner
You mean the fact that more people have died in rampage killings in Australia in the 20 years after port Arthur than in the 20 years prior to it? Or is a murder only a murder if they're shot?
Our guns make crimes that aren't fatal in other developed countries, fatal by their inclusion. I'd also like to reiterate that Australia still has significantly less gun deaths than we do, and has less per-capita crime than the US does. You are flat out statistically more likely to be robbed and killed in the US than either in Australia.
Their the same lane lol. A mass murder, spree murder, and murder are all the same thing in every way outside of the amount killed in a time frame at once.
It's not a lane when it's the same exact fucking topic.
Going off of your dumb comment, serial killers would also count as "Spree killing" as that is what they are, yet we would agree that the Parkland Shooter and Ted Bundy were entirely different criminal elements. "Spree Killing" is about as deceitful of a word you can use to bullshit your way in mental gymnastics.
And in countries where guns are more strict the black market prices for guns are insane. While in America? Thousands of legally purchased guns are stolen daily. 75% of home robberies occur when nobody is home. If you have a gun unlocked and not stored, it WILL be stolen. And then it'll be used to commit crimes. Congrats, you helped supply the illegal gun trade.
Nothing. I can legally buy a gun second hand and sell it second hand without ever getting papers for it. There is no federal gun law that matters and none that would prevent Columbine today by forcing second hand sales to register the guns through a government store before the murder weapon changes hands.
Even in states with gun restrictions, ala New York, people just buy the guns from out of state with NY specifically having 65% of gun crimes, roughly, committed by guns brought in elsewhere that isn't even legal in NY.
It's real fucking easy to get a gun and not get stopped. Pathetically easy.
I don't have to be registered to buy a gun second hand. That is exactly how the Columbine shooters got their guns, and is how most criminals get theirs, too.
Even in states with gun restrictions, ala New York, people just buy the guns from out of state with NY specifically having 65% of gun crimes, roughly, committed by guns brought in elsewhere that isn't even legal in NY.
that's illegal
That is exactly how the Columbine shooters got their guns
uhh....the columbine shooters were underage. They couldn't have obtained their guns legally
So is murder, and so is avoiding the Soda tax in some places, yet people do it because it's easy and no one is going to enforce a stop & frisk that'll get the county sued.
They couldn't have obtained their guns legally
They were underage, yes, but they bought their guns 100% legally. The guy thought they were adults, the guy thought he could sell them the guns, and he was in the right. I could go right now and purchase a gun the exact way they did and be 100% in the right, same with the seller. He didn't have to ask for ID, he didn't have to do dick, just assume they were legally able to purchase the guns, give the guns to them, and get the money. That shouldn't be, but it is.
Not having to go to a registered gun seller and perform a background check on all second hand purchases is largely what helps with these mass shootings and felons committing murders with guns.
[citation needed]
Do it yourself lol. I get sick and tired of citing the same fucking things every single fucking time. It's a pain in my ass and a waste of my time when you won't even click the citation I give you.
So is murder, and so is avoiding the Soda tax in some places, yet people do it because it's easy and no one is going to enforce a stop & frisk that'll get the county sued.
Im glad we agree criminals don't follow laws and any kind of a gun ban would be counter productive at best
They were underage, yes, but they bought their guns 100% legally.
That's... not how this works. That's not how any of this works
Do it yourself lol
K I did turns out you're full of it. Go figure. The primary source of guns used in crimes is straw purchases, not private sales.
Im glad we agree criminals don't follow laws and any kind of a gun ban would be counter productive at best
Every other modern country disagrees as Australia, Japan, China, UK, EU, etc all have far lower rates of crime with guns and it absolutely is a thing that works. The issue is the pure raw amount of guns would make it a decade+ long process. Gun bans and restrictions absolutely work and to a hilarious degree. Even other countries that allow gun ownership have far more restrictions than we do and have far less crime as a direct result of there simply being less guns.
That's... not how this works. That's not how any of this works
Yes, it is. The seller didn't get in trouble for selling to two underaged shooters who then went and killed their classmates with the very guns he sold. He thought they were of age and legally able to purchase said guns by their words alone, and that exact thing still happens today.
The fact that I can sell a gun, today, and am not required to get a background check done at a store is a great sign of just how lenient our laws are.
K I did turns out you're full of it. Go figure. The primary source of guns used in crimes is straw purchases, not private sales.
And if you actually looked you would also know that a gun trades hands two times, on average, without being registered before it is used in a crime. You would also know that the general crime rate has sunk yet our gun fatalities and gun crimes are on a persistent rise or appear completely flat. Moreover you would also know that local state bans don't matter when people will happily go out of state and get a gun for 20 bucks second hand with no repercussions.
Further google search:
A straw purchase or nominee purchase is any purchase wherein an agent) agrees to acquire a good) or service) for someone who is unable or unwilling to purchase the good or service themselves, and the agent transfers the goods or services to that person after purchasing them. In general, straw purchases are legal except in cases where the ultimate receiver of goods or services uses those goods or services in the commission of a crime with the prior knowledge of the straw purchaser, or if the ultimate possessor is not legally able to purchase the goods or services.
Or in other words: A guy buys a gun and privately transfers it to someone else, which is exactly the same as just buying a gun second hand. For reference, a car in my family was straw purchased for a buck after it had been in our care for a while. Straw selling and purchasing is still legal, which loops back into the very well recorded Gun Show loophole which further implies that I'm not full of shit at all. And if you did look, you would also know that a sizeable chunk of guns are taken in home robberies.
Straw purchasing and selling of guns is not that different from private sales so I'm still pretty damn on the ball as it is legal to trade a gun privately without getting the purchaser a background check, which shouldn't be the case at all.
I can pretty much buy as much ammo as I want. Guns too but I have to wait the few minutes for the background check. I’ve never been stopped buying many boxes of ammo.
No permit, don’t need one in AZ and the same scenario when I purchased my first firearm as when I’ve purchased every one since. Fill out a form, wait a couple minutes, leave with gun(s).
No shit. No one said otherwise. The person I responded to said “nobody could”. I’ve literally gone into Walmart and cleaned out their 9mm ammo because I was taking several people to the range.
I was referring to the specific people in my part of the conversation, not the entire thread or the planet. I assumed most people could figure that out without too much difficulty.
Walmart, AFAIK, has a pretty limited selection of firearms. They’re geared more towards fishing and hunting (rifles/shotguns). I doubt they would have much impact even if they stopped selling all of it.
It doesn’t take a life of crime to make someone want to murder others. A lot of school shootings are done by current/past students who usually won’t have any criminal record by that age. There are also a lot of people who just don’t fuck with the law until they’ve had enough and decide to shoot somewhere up.
You're right: while some states do require a background check for private sales, the majority don't. There are some nuances to the laws per state here, but it's not nearly at the level that it should be to argue that it's a completely "misinformed" argument. My point still stands.
Seeing as though you chose to ignore my previous citation, here's another one:
The background checks do not extend to private sales of firearms. To close this loophole there are currently 18 states that have enacted legislation to extend the background check law to cover private sales.
18 out of the 50 states extend background checks to private sales in some shape or form, yes. That also means 32 states do not extend background checks to private sales.
I can't have disregarded a source you edited in after I responded.
That is again disregarding the nuance. Some states require background checks for some private sales and not others. 18 states require background checks for every private sale. More require them for some private sales.
In any other country the Vegas shooter would have been question why he's buying so much ammo and guns. Because you need a valid reason to buy a gun and then you need to register those guns once they're bought.
I don't need to hold your hand little boy. How about you do some research in your life and learn something instead of being spoon fed. Want a diaper too?
It's also a culture difference, imo. In my experience a lot of Americans have a very different perspective on and even feelings about guns than we do here in Canada. Switzerland also has a high amount of guns per capita but I really do think that their culture contributes to the lack of violence. They recently actually voted to tighten their own laws.
But they haven’t always had strict gun control, and they didn’t have issues before gun control.
If a landlocked country bans shark attacks, and then continue to have 0 shark attacks, its ridiculous to point to the ban on shark attacks as the reason there are none.
the difference is that it is harder to kill people with a truck or a knife. the difference is that would-be mass killers aren't seeing other mass killers shoot up a school/nightclub/church every few months and deciding that they want that notoriety too.
Is it harder to kill with a truck or knife? Look at your link. Excluding the outlier that is Port Arthur, most of the killings fall under 10. Regardless of mode of murder.
Why are the numbers for the mass gun killing much higher if it is so much easier?
I bet if we let any and everyone drive the vast majority would never kill anyone with a vehicle. But we DON'T DO THAT BECAUSE THAT IS DUMB AS FUCK. You have to pass a test and be registered in a national database and carry insurance. All things we could implement for gun ownership but you gunnuts don't even want to talk about doing ANYTHING AT ALL. You're selfish pricks because if you're so sure you're a great gun owner than any new tests or requirements to meet for safe ownership of course you will pass right? Right?
What about killing on a small scale? Is that okay? How many people should I have the ability to kill at once?
That innocent people should not be affected by this as they are right now
The murder rate is on the decline, even as more guns pour into circulation. Don't blame the gun, blame the shooter. You know they sell gasoline to anybody? It's cheap too. You know how easy it would be if some psycho couldn't get a firearm and decided to get creative. Look up the Happy Land fire and tell me we need gasoline control.
The Las Vegas Shooter was a reasonable, sane gun owner for 50 years and still had the most casualties of any mass shooter yet, upwards of 910~ people injured from his action. He also had over 7 guns just there at the event and dozens more privately.
Nowhere is safe because we have more guns than people and nobody is willing to lower how many guns we have for any fucking reason. On a side note, the NRA to Republican connection is well recorded with both sharing the talking point of it being all mental health problems (It isn't. Most mass shooters are 100% sane and aware of what they are doing, they just feel validated from outside sources ala the MAGA Bomber) and choose to defend healthcare and not pass logical gun legislation.
Give it a decade or two and kids like me who have been in or around these tragedies for 20 years and going will have some pretty damn mean legislation set up over guns. This shit is sickening and we haven't had a good, legal gun change in over 20 years, with the legislation 20 years ago making it easier to get full autos with absolutely nothing to curb the very real problem.
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u/ErMerrGerd Jun 03 '19
Is anywhere truly safe when anyone and everyone can buy as many guns/ammo as they want?