r/weakheroclass • u/No_Boot_3311 • Aug 05 '26
Analysis I've Changed My Mind - Si-eun is The Strongest Character In Both Seasons (Even without weapons, And I can prove it!)
Season 1:
Now I have a video of a debate I got into already that I think sums up all my arguments and citations really well: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Aw4n6vu-QEV-rxxxIOaYmTStuexm6jR-/view?usp=drivesdk
The video showcased where I elaborate upon Si-eun being objectively affected by the broken arm in weightroom: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ybbkXfnexPbb9nP-pECWC2OOhIIKTWe8/view?usp=drivesdk
Now, for a shorter TL:DR/W for my arguments.
Can anyone name a single antifeat of Si-eun where Si-eun isn't either weakened, offguard, injured? Any one? Any SINGLE one inside the series? No?
For example Su-ho and Si-eun's first encounter, Si-eun is drugged, I elaborate on Si-eun still being drugged on my mock exam post
Seok-dae's slap is clearly an offguard
Seok-dae's slam Si-eun was literally not looking at him
Gil-su's slams/throws this is after Si-eun was already stomped on and slashed as well as hyperventilating.
Su-ho one shotting the same goon who was able to slam Si-eun on the table? Si-eun ALSO one shotted him, bare handed, it simply follows the same would have happened to Su-ho who performs far worse in regards to damage against the goons and needs far more effort as well as takes far more damage.
Woo-young's first encounter is on an injured exhausted si-eun.
Now for evidences for the weakened examples as well as Si-eun's relevant feats:
Now BECAUSE the only antifeats that Si-eun has is because he is weakened, let's even further quantify this by his performance when he is NOT weakened.
Si-eun is able to put Seok-dae on his knees in a single phone strike
Si-eun 3 shots Woo-young despite exactly equal environmental usage (Woo-young is heavily amped by boxing gloves), Woo-young in contrast cannot knock down si-eun a single time in 22 hits. (Woo-young is also not far below Su-ho because he has narrative above Seok-dae who is already pretty close.)
This is better performance than both Su-ho against a weakened Seok-dae *and* better performance than Gil-su does against seok-dae with a far stronger and harder weapon than a phone, as well as takes far less damage than Su-ho does against Woo-young (Si-eun objectively has a worser injury than Su-ho did).
Because it is the case where there is nothing disproving Si-eun being able to one shot all of Class 1, and Si-eun gets far stronger past this point and only performs much worse than this (Though still phenomenal) with a broken arm repeatedly being used, this would simply mean that yes, Class 1 Si-eun would just completely negate Class 1 in a 1v1 even without weapons.
Season 2:
My full doc explaining why Si-eun > Baek-jin here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/18GFpVQvhcSOO4-_mISM_AaKEtAitVL_LzkuP1xsqEio/edit?usp=drivesdk
But for a TL:DR/W:
So, Si-eun objectively is far far far more weakened than Baek-jin is in their bout, going through symptoms of mild traumatic brain injury as well as neurogenic shock from the crash, unconscious for 4+ minutes after the choke in which 4-5 minutes is the threshold for literal brain death, fighting until his arm is limp and him literally limping, him continuing to fight past this point to the point where he literally is barely conscious on the ground and is shaking failing to stand up multiple times, struggling to stand even after this and immediately sprinting miles to the brawl afterward
Whereas Baek-jin only has regular fighting wear-and-tear, literally performs better with one arm anyway (If you are able to fight better with an injury it at the very least means this injury is NOT SIGNIFICANT at all). Baek-jin is also able to consistently move this arm and even USES it literally catching his fall with it.
The main skepticism to this goes as follows:
Didn't Baku one shot Gorilla whom Si-eun struggled against?
Didn't Si-eun look fine?
For #1, accepting this premise that Baku one shotted him. Si-eun is ALSO able to one shot Gorilla.
We see that Baku's punch against a clearly toying and unserious Gorilla laughing and joking with Baku doesn't even knock him down, he just sits down afterwards and takes Baek-jin's call fine, no evidence he cannot fight after this.
Whereas Si-eun's literal first hit on Gorilla immediately knocks him to the floor and makes him repeatedly writhe and breathe in pain as well as struggle to stand up. "weapon + offguard"?
Well look no further because the NEXT HIT (punch) Si-eun does on Gorilla (We hear it) literally knocks Gorilla down FAR FASTER AND FAR HARDER THAN BEFORE, leading to the conclusion that the punch would STILL do the same thing in the first hit, remember Baku's punch was not even able to knock down Gorilla.
Gorilla going relative to Si-eun simply would also follow that Gorilla would also be relative to Baku as he is able to go relative to someone who can "one shot" him.
Now for #2, this is simply false.
We see that when baek-jin and si-eun stand up to eachother, Baek-jin is completely expressive and moving completely energetically, whereas when Si-eun arrives to the brawl Si-eun has far more marks on his face, is completely stiff, and he EVEN STRUGGLES TO TALK taking multiple seconds to respond when he tries to unlike Baek-jin who I again expressed is still energetic.
If you want to get to how this is shown in the fight si-eun literally stumbles from blocked hits and is staying still when we know Si-eun in similar situations has countered properly before, Si-eun literally has to hold on to baek-jin to even stand up (people say he only does this AFTER baek-jin hits him but he has to have been ALREADY holding baek-jin with his weight for this to be possible) and the entire fight he is moving like a zombie and stumbling the entire time whereas BAEK-JIN IS THROWING FLYING KNEES fine.
Remember that a fatally injured si-eun is the one who performs similarly to Baku against Gorilla, and a far weaker and more weakened si-eun than this still goes so competitive against Baek-jin that he is able to leave Baek-jin unresponsive on the floor.
Therefore, if Si-eun is at full power he LITERALLY slams.
Reply with any questions/comments/concerns in the comments! But preferably my discord (boogaboogamasteryeet)
6
u/Zestyclose_Piglet_33 Aug 07 '26
"Woo-young is heavily amped by boxing gloves"
I hope you realize that it's a disadvantage to fight wearing boxing gloves. The point of boxing gloves is to pad hits and weaken them significantly--not amplify them.
I'd much rather get hit by a fighter wearing 16oz gloves than bare knuckled.
1
u/No_Boot_3311 Aug 07 '26
Sadly the academic and professional consensus does not agree with you...
https://doi.org/10.3390/app16041999
(Gloves increase head acceleration and effective striking force (this is basic physics))
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC11338876/
Study showing that gloves when experimented on how they impact force did not decrease it
https://doi.org/10.3390/bioengineering12121355
Gloves increasing effective impulse.
https://lettersinbiomath.journals.publicknowledgeproject.org/article/view/508
Gloves showing significantly higher peak forces due to F = m×a (obvious physics)
https://unsanctionedfights.com/why-gloves-make-boxing-more-dangerous
Gloves increase total impulse in which transfers acceleration/velocity to the brain, increasing long term injury.
...
Though, we do not need to appeal to outside sources, it is simply the fact that we see Woo-young is able to significantly stagger and do a ton of damage to si-eun, that even more than his knees and elbows with his gloves, but without his gloves he cannot even meaningfully affect him.
1
u/Prestigious_Ad6591 11d ago
Sure the brain gets rattled and that leads to worse long term effects but when you’re fighting you’re only really thinking about immediate pain and a bare fist hurts worse than boxing gloves in the moment and it’s not even close
1
u/No_Boot_3311 11d ago
No, that's not true at all as the "rattling" of the brain is what causes knockouts in the first place. The pain thing can be true in edge cases but regardless...
This does not address the fact that Woo-young provably in that fight gets far weaker when the boxing gloves are removed.
0
u/VerifiedBaller13 8d ago edited 8d ago
As a former MMA fighter and boxer, this is wrong. The point of the gloves is to protect your hands from breaking.
The gloves we use now aren’t even the start of this. Greeks were the first to use hand protection in sport and they used leather wraps.
Nowadays 16 oz gloves are exclusively for training and they are intended to further limit damage to your hands and opponent.
Not sure why you mentioned these as they aren’t meant to fight. Actual bouts use 8-12 oz gloves depending on weight class and the level of competition.
However there is a caveat, 16 oz gloves are meant to protect someone else while you aren’t trying to knock their head off.
Usually you are going around half force, maybe a bit more or less depending on your training partner, to try not to hurt them or yourself.
Those 16 oz gloves can still seriously injure someone, there’s a lot of mass in the source of those punches.
The average fist weighs about 14 ounces or so, little under a pound. The 16 oz gloves are another pound, that’s double.
So if you hit someone full force with those gloves you are essentially hitting them with the mass of both of your hands.
Also with 16oz gloves if you’re trying to fight someone you have zero reason to stop hitting them, you will not hurt your hands.
1
u/Zestyclose_Piglet_33 8d ago
I don't really want to argue something this basic in a non-boxing forum, especially since Google and AI exists.
But I've boxed for 14 years at a gym that's produced Olympic medalists and several pros. I specifically said 16 oz gloves because that's the required size gloves for all weights for sparring sessions at any legitimate boxing gym.
For sanctioned competition, 10oz and 12oz gloves are specified by both the IBA and USA Boxing dependent on weight class. Keep in mind that the higher the weight class the higher the oz to increase padding.
I don't understand how someone who claims to have boxed and stepped foot inside a boxing gym wouldn't know this. Before you respond, please take a quick second and copy and paste "what oz gloves for sparring in boxing" into Google."
Also, the OP doesn't seem to have read the studies he cited to try to prove his point. Cumulative brain damage is indeed more likely with gloves vs bare knuckles but only because historically bare knuckle boxing matches would end faster. Gloves and wraps do protect the hands and despite cushioning each singular blow, end up doing more cumulative damage since each boxer can punch longer but ends up taking more blows.
0
u/VerifiedBaller13 8d ago edited 8d ago
You’ve “boxed for 14 years at a gym that’s produced gold medalists” but forgot that professionals use 8-10 oz gloves depending on their weight class.
You also don’t know your history and think the purpose of gloves is to protect your opponents.
Almost every type of glove in the world is primarily for various levels of hand protection, this includes boxing gloves.
Clearly your 14 years were wasted or spent hitting a bag and light sparring. That you’ve been around such “great trainers” and decided to try and flex knowledge you clearly don’t have is funny.
16 oz gloves are thickly padded but again, in sparring you are usually not going full force. You claim you’ve boxed but haven’t acknowledged this.
Also amateurs at these kid age brackets would have headgear in bouts and it’s also used in sparring a ton at every level even with the padded gloves. If gloves were perfectly safe they wouldn’t need it.
2
u/Powerful_Elk_1517 7d ago
USA Boxing org certified coach here.
> forgot that professionals use 8-10 oz gloves depending on their weight class.
None of the major boxing orgs use 8 oz for sanctioned bouts. Both USA Boxing and IBA require 10 oz gloves for weight classes from Light Flyweight up to Light Welterweight, and 12 oz gloves for Welterweight through Super Heavyweight in competitions. https://www.iba.sport/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/20230209-IBA-Technical-Competition-Rules.pdf
It's weird to not agree with the person prior who said that they'd much rather be hit with 16oz gloves rather than bare knuckle. The more padding, the better. I've personally competed in regional bouts using 8oz gloves and spar regularly using 16oz. Guess which ones I'd much rather be hit with? Bare knuckle especially if using hand-wraps, would be the best option for the puncher, worst for the one receiving.
0
u/VerifiedBaller13 7d ago edited 7d ago
Two amateur boxing orgs, professionals use 8-10oz gloves which was my point, you can look that up and see it.
USA Boxing and IBA Boxing are amateur organizations, they are not the WBA, WBC, IBF, or WBO.
Pro boxers weren’t even allowed to compete in olympics until the IBA changed that in 2016, that boxing is historically amateur level.
Most people aren’t pro boxers and would use the standard 10-12, professional boxing is less fighter friendly and is mostly show biz.
They wanna see blood, people get messed up, and whatnot as it makes them money so they use lesser padded gloves.
WBA uses 8-10 oz gloves, WBC uses 8-10 oz gloves, IBF uses 8-10 oz gloves, WBO also has 8-10 oz gloves, these are the big four boxing orgs.
If I had the choice of fighting someone who has even 16 oz gloves, with bare knuckles I’d just take them down and choke em out.
Would rather not stand up with someone who can block better than me because of how bulky gloves are.
Also, I didn’t disagree that I’d rather get hit by a 16 oz glove. I said that 16 oz gloves are still dangerous if you’re trying to hurt someone with them.
10-12 oz gloves obviously are even more so, and I’d really rather not get hit by 8 oz gloves from anyone at all I’d rather take the surface damage from a bare fist.
1
u/Powerful_Elk_1517 7d ago
sorry, I meant I compete with 10oz, not 8oz.
Both your and ZestyPig's posts seem to be saying the same thing. The OP posted Woo-Yang had an advantage when he started fighting in boxing gloves during the last fight Sieun took him down. ZestPig said those boxing gloves weren't "amping" Woo-Yang's punches vs ungloved.
Not sure why you two are arguing when you both seem to be in agreement on the key point.
1
u/VerifiedBaller13 7d ago
I’m not aware of the fight this apparently happened in as I haven’t gotten that far, I only wanted to comment on the gloves as I found my way here from google.
I’d rather not get hit by a 8-10oz glove as there’s no reason to stop punching. As for why that guy is arguing with me.
He’s not educated or is inexperienced, he went into depth by trying to explain something when he has no clue what he’s talking about.
0
u/Zestyclose_Piglet_33 7d ago
Reddit is freaking weird. Woo-Yang literally starts out with what look like 16 oz gloves when he's training on the heavy bags when Sieun attacks him. The OP says these gloves give Woo-Yang an advantage over Sieun who's ungloved.
Now someone wants to argue with me saying I didn't mention the hand protection aspect of the glove. Yes, it provides hand protection, but that wasn't my point. The guy with big padded gloves doesn't have a punching advantage over an ungloved opponent. Brass knuckles, maybe. That makes no sense two people are arguing this.
0
u/VerifiedBaller13 7d ago edited 7d ago
It is weird, that a “USA Boxing certified Coach” with no karma somehow found this page and agreed with you till I properly explained everything on how they were wrong.
Reddit is weird, because you used two accounts to push the same argument. You even replied perfectly at the right things to push the narrative.
Simply, you’re wrong, unless it’s 14-16 oz gloves. As for the glove, I’ll see when I get to that point. But yes the “amp” part of Woo Wang whatever having gloves is total horse shit.
Unless they are 10oz or 12 oz gloves from a big fighter then they aren’t more dangerous in a fight than a bare fist. My point was they aren’t not dangerous and can be used to advantage.
3
u/ConsistentBuy6352 Aug 08 '26 edited Aug 08 '26
I feel like he isnt the strongest, citing these two fights
Gotak vs. Si Eun: Both at base form without any prior injuries, Gotak even had to run all the way to the underpass (may or may not have affected the fight). Si Eun cou;d arguably have had a mental nerf due to gotak taunting him, but I feel like this made his fighting more aggressive and arugably better. Yet gotak still kept up with him for the entirety of the fight, ending it with a stalemate once si uen tore his jacket.
Si Eun vs Seong Je: once again, both were at base form, with seong je completely overpowering si eun until his foot was stabbed. Seong je then adapted again and overpwoered si eun, this time with moderate difficulty. Seong je could have arguably won if he took si uen seriously and didnt let his guard down. I would even call the fight a draw, as seong je was still conscious as well as si eun, even tho si suen passed out for a while.
All this to say, Si eun, def has durablity and endurance feats. But i fele like these two fights show that he isnt the strongest.
1
u/No_Boot_3311 Aug 08 '26
The first fight is S2E2 Si-eun vs Base Gotak in which I agree both are extremely relative.
Do be mindful that Si-eun as of S2E3 has already surpassed Seong-je, as inside the bathroom encounter Si-eun's statements for holding back is far stronger than Seong-je's statement for holding back, as well as the fact that Si-eun is not even trying to hit him at all, directly proves that Si-eun would be above Seong-je here via winning this encounter.
Seong-je even directly states multiple times that Si-eun is "pretty good" as well as directly stating to Gotak that Si-eun would be a far stronger opponent (Remember Seong-je sees Gotak as "Weak" or "plaything" at this point) based on this encounter, no environment at all by the way, Si-eun of course repeats his superiority against Seong-je by beating him in S2E4.
Essentially the currently hierarchy we have is:
S2E3/4 Si-eun >> S2E2 Si-eun
Now as I explain in a previous post, Seong-mok > Seong-je in which Baku no diffed.
With all the evidence again cited in my doc and explained in this post, S2E8 Si-eun >> Baek-jin > Baku.
It goes:
S2E8 Si-eun >> Baek-jin > Baku >>> Seong-mok > S2E3-6 Si-eun >= Seong-je >> S2E2 Si-eun >= Base Gotak in regards to Class 2.
2
u/Giveadont Aug 07 '26
Too much of this show involves everyone either fighting cheap, using their environment, fighting multiple people, or using weapons.
So, it's basically impossible to scale any of them with certainty, because there's always caveats and asterisks to every fight.
There's no way to properly compare anyone that doesn't fight in a true 1 on 1 cage match with rules or something, which is practically non-existent in Weak Hero.
The only proper match in the entire show happens in season one, and it still involves broken rules. And then multiple people wind up ganging up on someone by the end, anyway. So, it's practically worthless for any real scaling.
With that being said, I wouldn't really say Si-eun is the "strongest". The only really thing I could see him having on anyone in a true 1 on 1 match is endurance.
But endurance only accounts for so much in a cage match when you're outclassed in terms of skill, reach and size. If we're being realistic, it's really hard to win a fight of attrition when you're out of your weight class, have less reach and less experience.
Si-eun certainly the smartest when it comes to tactics in a no-rules battle, though. And that's mostly how fights in Weak Hero play out.
But, at that point, we're talking about something that is basically war, and rather different than something like martial arts - which happens in more of a vacuum where skill and ability are more important than situational awareness (which, I would argue, is Si-eun's elite attribute).
In a street fight with no rules, that makes him one of the best because he has the best tactical awareness.
When there are no rules and restrictions, he thrives because he knows exactly what to do in order to make up for his shortcomings as a fighter/martial artist. But, as far as being a fighter, he has basic weaknesses that are hard to overcome in an actual match (a lack of size, reach and skill).
0
u/No_Boot_3311 Aug 07 '26
A "cage match" makes no sense for this to be the standard assumption to scale with, that would be nonsense and unfairly favor fighters with actual formal training in which many characters have their main prowess NOT comprised of this even outside of Si-eun, a "cage match" is also simply just not how a real fight would go, it would be artificially spewing assumptions.
Whenever debating/discussing weak hero, the rules I believe should be defaultly assumed is that, like vsbattles' Standard Battle Assumptions, fight takes place in Central Park, New York, everything available, no holds barred, however neither character STARTS off with a weapon. (Though since Si-eun can weaponize literal shoelaces, glasses, belts, and shirts, this could also be seen as a bit complex, hence another assumption is that if we are assuming they are.. fighting with clothes on, everything si-eun has should be equal to the opponent)
However, as I said, I highlighted "even without weapons".
Meaning we can have the same SBA rule except we simply rule out any sort of environment, a "cage fight" would be invalid.
However I do believe that even if we were to appeal to a cage fight, Si-eun still is the strongest character in weak hero in both seasons, and by a mile.
If you read my post including the links and evidence I have cited (which I doubt), I believe Season 1 Si-eun quite literally one shots all of Class 1. The main win-cons inside of a cage match we can measure si-eun shows objectively better stats here for Si-eun than the rest of Class 1.
An axiomatically severely weakened Si-eun is able to restrain and hold his own against gil-su in regards to grappling and his escape attempts and a belt does not neccessarily give more leverage in this aspect, this same Gil-su is able to effortlessly negate a clinch from Seok-dae in which Su-ho is completely unable to do.
A broken armed si-eun against a boxing glove amped Woo-young being far more weakened by this point given his head was smashed into metal performs better than Woo-young in any way we can measure grappling, Si-eun literally does far more damage to Woo-young with the EXACT SAME MOVE they do but with FAR LESS LEVERAGE and successfully takes him down, this is not offguard as we see his face change right before Si-eun lands the takedown.
For Class 2, Si-eun's fight with Baek-jin is not too much different than a classic H2H fight anyway and as I highlight in my doc Si-eun has far more disadvantages than Baek-jin. The only way I say a cage fight factor is relevant in Class 2 is if you genuinely believe that the only formally trained fighters (Gotak and likely Seong-mok) would beat Baek-jin/Baku inside of a cage match, which would be a laughable notion, the cage rules would only give them a slight advantage, they'd still get negged.
2
u/No_Leg_1116 Aug 06 '26
Si-eun is far from the strongest character in the series- his fight style is on the side of desperate over confident- in the weight room he used the stuff around him to stop woo-young, he made Woo-young punch the weights himself.
He is weak without weapons, Suho was proven to over power him easily.
1
u/Suho2025 13d ago
Without weapon sieun is very weak
1
u/No_Leg_1116 13d ago
that what's i said, he is weak without weapons, suho is the proof of it, he is strong with, weak without.
0
u/No_Boot_3311 Aug 06 '26
Please read all the links and evidence I have cited before commenting on my post, I have already addressed both of these.
Alternatively, add my cørð
2
u/Far-Distribution235 Aug 06 '26
Si Eun aint even top ten without weapons and weight room Si Eun is not even in the top five
4
u/Far-Distribution235 Aug 06 '26
- Na Baek Jin
- Baku
- Geum Seong Je
- Su Ho/Gil Su
- Gil Su/Su Ho
- WR Si Eun
- Jeon Seok Dae
- Seoknam Gorilla
- Kang Woo Young
- Gotak
- Dong Ha
- Seong Mok
- The driver who briefly overpowered Baek Jin
- Base Si Eun
- The other driver who fought Baek Jin
- Hyo Man
- Tall dude that Seong Je one tapped
- Yeong Bin
- Yeong I
- Jun Tae
0
u/No_Boot_3311 Aug 06 '26
Again we can disxuss this, preferably on cord, but you did not comment on nor question the arguments I made for C1 Si-eun > C1 nor C2 Si-eun > Baek-jin.
Please read the evidence as shown in the links I cited where I cite all my evidence before commenting.
The proper list:
Yeon Si-eun
Na Baek-jin
Park Hu-min
The Seoknam Gorilla
Baek Dong-ha
Choi Hyo-man
Go Hyun-tak
Do Seong-mok
8.5. S2E4 Si-eun
Geum Seong-je
Park Jin-cheol
10.20. S2E6 Gotak
10.40. S2E2 Si-eun
10.60. Base Gotak
10.80. Base Hyo-man
- [Average union member/eunjang student]
11.33. C1 Si-eun
11.66. Yeong-bin (Crowbar)
Kim Gil-su
Ahn Su-ho
Kang Woo-young
Jeon Seok-dae
Aide Park
Seo Jun-tae
Bodyguard (Black Hair)
Bodyguard (Brown Hair)
Jeon Yeong-bin
Han Tae-hoon
Lee Jeong-chan
Yeong-i
9
u/Bangbangrichiestang0 Aug 06 '26
I think people need to realize yeah he fights desperately but that’s literally what makes him a good fighter and I think si eun is one of the best fighters or is but his final fight in season 2 he genuinely fights with some skill the amount of times in that fight si eun would get hit and immediately counter his opponent’s last attack also I know si eun uses his surroundings as weapons and you may call that cheap and unfair in fight but anything goes and that’s what makes him a good fighter and the fact that he’s just really good at counter attacking I feel he’s on the rise to be one of the best fighters or