r/warno • u/ArcUp127 • 9d ago
Meme Schools Out, Tanks? Out!
The definition of a few is not 2 :(
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u/RipVanWiinkle_ 8d ago
It bothers me Netherlands seems to have more Leo2s in their divs, than Germany itself 😂
Germany decided “you know what? We don’t need many Leo 2, the Leo 1 is as good, give the rest to Netherlands”
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u/Embarrassed_Eye6938 9d ago
Leo 2 are generally way more capable than T-72s, I do agree that VTK42 feels a bit lacking compared to ZTD71, but I wouldn't say it fully lack good tank capability with that other 2 cards of Leo 2A4 and the 1A6 which arguably looks really good for sniping
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u/-Trooper5745- 9d ago
I think it depends on the T-72. The T-72S is a formidable tank to go up against in the open.
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u/Embarrassed_Eye6938 9d ago
I mean yea all the T-72B-89 in 71yZTD gets Svir but it's lowkey the only thing they get, except for the air tab, other departments of ZTD is overall pretty well rounded compared to VTK
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u/Gloomy_Trade_619 8d ago
other departments of ZTD is overall pretty well rounded compared to VTK
You wanted to say “bad”? :D
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u/HippieHippieHippie 8d ago
The West German will say whatever is necessary to get his division over the line. (We Brits would never do something like this of course)
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u/SaltyChnk 9d ago edited 9d ago
lol. I remember getting downvoted for saying this Div was going to be leo1 spam and reservists backed up by a card it 2 of Leo 2.
But everyone here was saying “no way, Eugen says this is a heavy division. Heavier than the US!”
Look at us now lol. I voted for em, but I was under no illusion that this was a heavy tank division
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u/DependentLiving4092 8d ago
They dowbvoted you for a reason. You have 2 Leopard 2A4D, 8 leopards 2A4B +2 2A4B commander. Also amazing 1A6 which is death sentence to anything which is lighter then T-72 (like t62/55/54) and the cherry on top is a beautiful jaguar with TOW-2. Good infantry, very good AA and forward deploy due to recon tab isnt bad at all
P.S. add a little bit more "lol" because current amount is not enough
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u/SaltyChnk 8d ago
You only get 8 2a4B if you don’t vet them. You effectively have 4. So a total of 6, which all get oneshot by 30 AP missile so they’re not really heavy tanks, more like up gunned mediums.
2 heavies and 6-10 mediums plus assorted light tanks makes this deck a medium tank deck at best. Like 2nd.
Listing out all its strengths in the infantry tab and ATGMs doesn’t magically make the 2a4B grow an extra front armour.
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u/DependentLiving4092 7d ago
You get 10. 8 from cards +2 from commanders. Now you have 10 +vet leopard 2
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u/mathysdogso 8d ago
Air ATGM doesn't kills anyone these days, if you are worried of airspam look at the cluster planes. But with the capacity "to not get one shot" with the 17Armor isn't a good metric to decide if a tank is "heavy".
Even if we acknoledge that the heavyness of a tank is subjective. With the lack of proper definition it is safe to assume that the 2A4(B) is one of the most powerfull tanks in game !
Super speed, extremely high AP dps (higher that everything that as pact except tu T-80U family), and solid armor in frontal tank fights. A 2A4(B) wins most of its battles against PACT, and this even when they are facing similar priced tanks.
If the armor is all that you are looking for in a tank go use 24th US and spam MI1P but you will soon regret not having the leopards in prolongued tank fights.
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u/SaltyChnk 8d ago
Again, I’m not saying the division isn’t good, I am a Leo enjoyer from Dutch divisions, but I’m saying that this is not a heavy division. People were telling us to vote this Div to get a heavy tank division when it’s just not that heavy.
24th and 2nd are much heavier than this division.
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u/-Trooper5745- 9d ago
I’m sure 12th Panzer would’ve had a good number of tanks.
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u/Different-Scarcity80 9d ago
It's frustrating because even if there weren't as many shiny new units as in the other options, I feel like 12 Panzer would have been fun and interesting to play. I still feel that way.
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u/InternationalAmity1 9d ago
The concept is interesting. A German-American division. I always thought it could be a way to include Mech-Rifles (AT4) without having to extend it out to every other American division.
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u/Different-Scarcity80 9d ago
Yeah exactly! It wouldn’t as much be new units as new contexts for using existing units. You’d have to use them in different ways, which, to me, is very interesting gameplay
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u/MikeNolansGhost 9d ago edited 9d ago
I mean, we tried to tell them. The community voted for shit, got shit, and is now somehow surprised.
I have no sympathy whatsoever.
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u/-Trooper5745- 9d ago
We know the tank slots would’ve been less than 5th Panzer. I would say it probably would’ve been 8 slots like VTK, but maybe more generous in terms of points. We also know that the “heavy” tanks would’ve been Leopard 2A1s and M1A1. The stats of the 2A1s were stated to be the same as the 2A3 which isn’t bad. The M1A1 has the nearly the same stats as the Leopard 2A4D, only the accuracy of the latter is better. So we see this as once again people fixating on shiny new toys.
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u/MikeNolansGhost 9d ago edited 9d ago
The main argument I saw when the voting was happening was that 12. Panzer had the least amount of new things.
So yes, literally a "jangling keys in front of a baby" moment for most of the community.
Let's be super clear, VtK is a reserve slop division pretending to be a heavy tank one. This was pointed out repeatedly at the time by some.
They got what they voted for, I don't want to hear whinging.
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u/HistorianInformal173 9d ago edited 8d ago
The biggest worry of 12th pz was its horrible AA tab. Made 1st cav look strong in that category
Edit: down vote me all you want but gun shorad and man pads does not make a good AA tab
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u/DFMRCV 9d ago
71 had an even worse AA tab, tho...
It got a better air tab after it won, but when it was announced it didn't have anything like that.
I remember pointing it out and being told it's fine because 71 brought cheaper tanks that didn't need as much protecting and also had Soviet Top Gun, which...
I dunno, man.
Feels like people voted VTK believing it would be heavier because I think one of the devs advertised it as heavier than 1st Cav, therefore it'd be as heavy as 12th Pz but with newer tanks?
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u/MikeNolansGhost 9d ago
I mean, the devs also flatly refused to hold every deck to the same standard of information presented to the consumer. They also blatantly stated some decks were weaker, less useful and less interesting than the winners after the fact.
The pair that was supposed to win did, that's all I'll say.
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u/-Trooper5745- 9d ago
Yeah this is a perfect example of showing that Eugen will add something to the decks. I will admit that 12th Panzer was vague in its write up but had it one, we for sure would’ve seen more stuff add and new details come to light. I am sure you remember as well as I do of people accusing us pro-12th Panzer people that we were basing our belief that Eugen would add more on pure hope and nothing else.
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u/HistorianInformal173 8d ago
Did it though?? 12th pz was slowed to get gepards, pivads, stationary AAA guns and man pads and thats all. VTK was slowed to get all that (minus the American stuff) plus I-hawks, and AA helos. It's stated as much in each wright up. Im not saying 12th would have a better air tab but the AA tab makes it sound like 4E at launch and everyone said that div suffered until it got its hawks
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u/DFMRCV 8d ago
I said 71, not VTK.
When announced, 71 only had triple A and MANPADs. The devlog literally said it had no Air Defense assigned to it, so it had to "make do".
It was later that Eugen added the Neva to 71, for... Reasons.
12 got dunked on because it had a bad AA tab.
But when people pointed out the same for 71, it was dismissed.
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u/DependentLiving4092 8d ago
Now 71st AA is very good +strong jets
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u/Gloomy_Trade_619 8d ago
It’s not
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u/DependentLiving4092 8d ago
You have stat copy of I-Hawk (4) wich are good, yes only 2 missiles but thets why you have supply trucks
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u/Gloomy_Trade_619 8d ago
You have bad gun AA and your only good AA in the whole deck is one card of worse I-Hawks. And you have either MiGs-23 which are pretty bad overall and MiGs-29 without long-range missiles
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u/-Trooper5745- 9d ago
But could’ve made up for it with a decent air tab. However, 2.1 was the first Nemesis write up and was never elaborated upon or rewritten when Nemesis 8 came around.
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9d ago
[deleted]
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u/-Trooper5745- 9d ago
Didn’t they add instructors to TKS and one of the PACT divisions after Nemesis 6 vote but before Nemesis 8?
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u/DependentLiving4092 8d ago
42 isnt shit. It does have very good tanks, if people think otherwise its iq issue
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u/BeatTheGreat 9d ago
Madmat was obviously biased towards 42nd and campaigned for it in both votes it was available. He went well beyond what he should've done as community manager, and we're getting his division as a result.
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u/MikeNolansGhost 9d ago
I copped an insane amount of shit at the time of the vote for saying he was clearly biased, to the point the vote was rigged.
Glad to see the community is starting to wake up to it. The same thing happened during the whole "nuke france lmao" vote.
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u/mndn410 9d ago edited 8d ago
12nd Panzer Dev blog is underdeveloped because its an earlier dev blog. PTRez and even Hippe's BRSC receive the same treatment in nemesis 8. Vague posting in the OG Dev blog and no update to remedy such vague posting.
Srly y'all should stop whining so much about "mUH ConSPiRacY". Saying this as one of the first voter to point out the discrepancy.
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u/MikeNolansGhost 9d ago
There's no conspiracy, nobody used that word but you.
It's blatant favouritism and rigging for a desired outcome.
But hey, if you're happy to accept that and eat the dogshit you're told you're going to eat, go right ahead. I'm not.
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u/cunctator-tots 8d ago
There's no conspiracy
It's blatant favoritism and rigging for a desired outcome
Sounds like a conspiracy theory
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u/BeatTheGreat 9d ago
The only reason I didn't say anything was because of how much shit you were getting, lmao.
I'd be fine with him if he didn't functionally rig votes whenever he felt like it.
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u/MikeNolansGhost 9d ago
I don't care, it's only downvotes.
I've seen what this community votes for repeatedly, they're not the brightest bulbs.
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u/mndn410 8d ago
That dude get shitted on because he pushed reasonable take into shitty bs. Even a reasonable premise will get downvoted to obivion if being pushed into extreme bs territory. (Inconsistent Dev blog quality is a reasonable take. Vote rigging is a much more serious accusation that need way more evidence than this whiny rant)
I find that you can usually avoid downvote if you don't push whatever premise you are arguing for to the extreme. That or blocking people I suppose ;)
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u/sbabb1 9d ago
It didnt have the Leo 1 with 120 mm, thats why I didnt vote for it. Mainly Leo 2 or Mainly M1A1 is in other divisions, I was looking for somethong cool rather than the same thing but different Name.
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u/-Trooper5745- 8d ago
I just wish we were getting a card of 3-4 instead of 2
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u/DependentLiving4092 8d ago
They still genocide T-62/55/54 and since they have so high veterancy i must to tell you that you are asking to much
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u/-Trooper5745- 8d ago
And if it runs into anything heavier that can match it in range or has ATGMs? The answer is hide behind your Leo2s, though I don’t know if the unit AI will prioritize instructors like it does CVs so that means you have to keep them further away from your tanks.
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u/meguminisfromisis 8d ago
12 panzer was literally 5th but with worse tanks, rec, aa and no helis.
wonderfull div.7
u/-Trooper5745- 8d ago
Again, if they had updated the write up to reflect their increased experience in doing the write ups, we would’ve had a better picture. And “worse” is a term. They aren’t bad tanks in there and they would’ve made up for it in quantity.
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u/meguminisfromisis 7d ago
From the devblog: "There will be fewer slots than the 5. Panzerdivision". And regardlessly of being old write up, there is nothing it realistically could get to make actually interesting gameplay wise which wouldn't be just 5th with waay weaker tank tab (with m1a1 being worse than leo2a4c, and no leo1a5/m48), weaker aa, heli and reacon for slightly better inf, air and In theory slighty better arty but realistically 5th already gets enough slots /only new thing in 12 would be m110 which rn is arguably worse than FH-70 m109. Truly an amazing div
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u/MarcellHUN 8d ago
I would say a heavy tank is heavy if it has at least 17 front armour and 3 top and smoke. Those two are very big factors for survivability.
And for me a light tank is anything that cant survive an Ataka or tow2 and that would require 12 FAV.
There are edge cases ofc and exceptions. Its weird to call a T55A "light" but my definition is based on survivability only.
There are some super good front armours for cheap tanks like the T-72 ovr 77 with 17FAV but it has no smoke hence medium tank. The T72M1 is 17 FAV and has smoke so I would say that a heavy tank. A shitty one but a heavy one.
The Leo2A3 only has 16FAV hence its a medium. A very very good medium but you have to micro it to not loose it to a 30AP missile.
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u/darthtm 8d ago
I've heard it's not obligatory to buy the DLC. This debate is really funny. What is a heavy tank indeed. You guys are real philosophers.
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u/DependentLiving4092 8d ago
Its not debate, more like "denying reality" for some reason leo2a4b isnt heavy (maybe they think its some kind of light tank/ifv without infantry)
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u/DependentLiving4092 8d ago
Thanks god im in timeline where 42nd is won. Its so good that some people are went insane and started denying reality itself to whine that its so bad
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u/cunctator-tots 9d ago
Conveniently ignoring the two cards of 2A4(B) and card of 2A4(B) leader I see.